Hello,
I've finally dug up my first bed, 1.5m wide by 4m long. The clumps are quite large and still have grass/weeds on the surface which have been strimmed pretty close to the growng and the rest of the topsoil is full of weed roots. Do I need to hand pick most of the weed roots and remove the top layer of vegetation on the clumps before using the bed? I've looked around other plots which have been dug up and they look completely weed free, I feel like it will take several days to clear the weeds in just the one bed - have I got any other options?
Thanks,
vaca
get a hand cultivatar and hack at the soil, that will sepearte most the weeds then collect them up. most weeds though can just be tuned into the soil and will rot down. if you leave the soil until the winter frosts the clumps will be broken up by the frosts.
thanks adam04, I guess that since I want to plant some veg I've been growing in modules for the past few weeks on my first bed I won't be able to wait for winter frosts. I'm planning to dig up another 3 beds of the same size and will leave these throughout the winter. Should I cover them up with plastic sheeting or should I just leave the 3 unused beds open?
thanks again for all the help and support :D
cover them up or you will get overrun with weeds. Use black sheet mulch or axminster :) Manure can be put on top and will be taken into the soil by worms. Manure can be put under black plastic too :)
It depends what kind of weed roots you have, if it's couch grass you need to get them all out, it's time consuming but worthwhile.
Strongly agree with Wardy, I got a good start with black plastic with loads of spent hops underneath, the soil should be lovely and (mostly) weed free in the Spring :P It's very good for morale ...
btw if your beds are 1.5m wide can you easily dig to the middle without treading on them? mine have to be 1.2m wide as I have short lickle arms ;)
Hi all
I used what i think was called a Wolfgang spade . Its got a spade head & shaft then what looks like Handel bars.
Then it has a spring bar at the back.
So when you use it you dig it in like a normal spade then pull back on the Handel & the spring bar flips the soil over.
Using this on a plot that has not been dug & is covered in grass etc i dug 5 meters by 3 meters in about an hour. :)
The first time I dug my beds was in September. Immediately after digging I sowed green manure crops Phacelia and Vetch. It was good to be growing my first crops from day one and worked well to reduce weeds over winter and into spring. I sometimes start the Phacelia in 160 plug trays and transplant about 12" equal spacing so it has a really good start. Vetch is slower growing and not so good for supressing weeds but it fixes nitrogen in the soil. Cut and used as a mulch on the surface it continues to suppress weeds so I tend to do this instead of digging it into the soil.
You can experiment with close planting crops to suppress weeds or wide planting so there is good access to hoe and hand weed. I target dandelions, docks & thistles prior to planting a crop since they are not easy to weed out without disrupting the crop. Less deep rooted weeds I tackle with a hoe and preferably on a hot dry breezy day when exposed roots dry quickly and the weeds are killed.
I am no dig as you all probably know by now and I think why dig if you don't have to and why do you ? My plot must be as productive as everyone elses but mine is achieved without digging so why bother ;D
The subsequent management of my beds does not include routinely digging. My beds are 1.2m (I must have short arms too) so I do not walk on them and compact the soil.
The transition from weeds to crops requires intervention. Digging, plastic mulch or weedkiller each have their pros & cons.
If you are fit and able to dig it's a quick & organic intervention and you can sow immediately afterwards.
Vacca, you need to get all the prenial weeds out or they will grow back.
Its no good digging if your not removing the weeds, waste of time.
So far ive dug about 3 meters by 5 and it has taken me about 18 hours, its not just the digging its sifting through the soil for those couch roots. :o
Quote from: gayle on September 05, 2005, 08:36:54
Its no good digging if your not removing the weeds, waste of time.
So far ive dug about 3 meters by 5 and it has taken me about 18 hours, its not just the digging its sifting through the soil for those couch roots. :o
Well... couch grass it is, and loads of it, the plot I took over hasn't been worked in 3 years so the weeds have really taken hold of it. I spent a good 6 hours yesterday sifting through a 1.5m x 2m section (1/2 of my first bed) but there are way too many perennial tap roots and rhyzomes, that I doubt I will ever be able to get them all out :( After spending all day on it, I had a huge pile of weeds but it seemed to make no difference at all as there were still loads more on the ground :'( ...just endless (and I'm very patient by nature but this is really trying me - I'm probably looking at over 5 hours per square meter :o) - and the prospect of 200m2 to manually sift through add up to over 1000 hours of weeding :-\
Am I not better off taking the easy way out and using roundup on the remainder? leaving it covered up for a couple of weeks, and then digging it over? I'm not really happy with using weedkiller, but the couch grass is just everywere.
Do what you feel comfortable with, there's nothing worse than being disheartened before you even start. :)
Hi Vaca
You've done the difficult bit, breaking the soil up. Whoever it was said you need to get the roots out is absolutely right, but you don't really need to do it all in one go, especially if it is just couch (JUST couch, I can hear people shrieking!!)
I've got as very heavy clay soil and took on a plot overrun with couch, bindweed and marestail. The couch gave up after 2 years, but I'm still (16 years later) battling the others.
I dug over roughly, like you did, then got planting straight away. I found that the couch grew back, but the fact that the soil was loosened meant I could fork it out quite easily, and it was all gone 2 years later. i still have it all round the edges, so every so often I have some creep under the paths and into the edge of a bed, but it is very little problem now.
Hope that helps - and I'm really not trying to be smug - you haven't seen my bindweed :-[
Love and compost
Linda
Vaca,
I`m in the same position as you, so what I do for 2hrs per day, is I go down 1 spit--get the complete Couch/weeds etc out -shake mud off and place in sack--I won`t put Couch weeds on my Compost heap.I do an area of approx 5m x 1m = 2hrs--this is a total of 8 Sacks--including taking to the Local Council Dump.Gets boring digging, you need Radio 5 live ( with a small Portable )whilst your digging.After digging if your not Sowing -cover it with Black Sheet ,to stop further weeds, appearing over Winter period.
PS. you don`t want to go down Council Dump, try drying out Roots and BURN.
If you start 160 plug trays with Phacelia in two weeks you have lots of transplants. Once you have the transplants dig the area you want to reclaim by cutting square clods of grass one spade deep if possible and turn them upside down. Broadcast Phacelia & Vetch seed and rake the area then pop in the Phacelia transplants at 12" or closer spacing. This will guarantee a very dense cover of green manure which will grow away quicker than the grass can recover. With competition and without light the grass will suffer. Cut the green manure crop in spring and use it as a ground mulch. You can them try to make the transition to food crops or repeat depending on how well it has worked. In my experience it works pretty well and I tend to attack new areas when I'm in the mood and for a couple of hours at a time. I like to watch the bees visit the Phacelia when it flowers and take photos and usually I feel quite positive about the progress which is unavoidably slow at times. Once an area is over to green manure you can forget about it for a while knowing that when you do return to sort it out the job will be easier.
I don't think I would enjoy to sift through the soil for every last bit of couch grass.
Dominique Ed's suggestion is great about the phacelia. On plots covered with weeds I think it's impossible to remove all weeds as they are bound to be growing back whilst you're doing another bit. I have a very big plot so can afford for great swathes of it to be under black sheet mulch which gets rid of the weeds which are on the surface, and those underground eventually as they will be weaked by lack of light and eventually die. That's the plan. I've cropped several areas now which I've removed the plastic from and planted using a bulb planter rather than disturb the soil by digging, and thought that couch would be the weed to appear first but it was docks. You'll always get weeds no matter what you do so I'm philosophical about them :) I used areas to plant in where I'd had the bonfires and they stay weed free for quite a while. I have cropped two such areas twice now and the surface is now quite friable to say it's not dug. I fluffed up the surface yesterday with a cultivator and what couch there was came out easily. I'll get there eventually but I'm in no hurry and having such a big plot it won't hurt to leave 2/3rds under cover til I get round to them and meanwhile the weeds will be dying. These areas though are an ideal surface for growing squashes which is what I'm using them for. The first pic is a spot where the bonfire was and I planted it up first with broad beans, peas and then red onions. Only small area but it's food. Second pic shows how cardboard under manure for growing spuds has cleared the ground of weeds. For a while at least.
Thanks so much for the support, I was starting to panic thinking every last bit of couch grass needed to be pulled up before planting anything - or it would be wasted time. But I guess that from your replies it's not really like that.
I'll keep digging, weeding, and covering :) and lay off the roundup for the time being... I'll dig at least for 1/2 plot, the other 1/2 I'll may try the green manure suggestion as I'll probably have had enough of digging by then :D
...at least I've now managed to plant my chicory and winter lettuce seedlings into my first 1/2 bed!!! and hopefully I'll get my broad beans and some spinach on the remainder of the bed once I've weeded it this weekend.
thanks again to everyone,
vaca
I've got a fork head with the tines bent in a right angle, and fitted with a broom handle - very good and quick for breaking up the soil.
HI
when i turned mine over with the wolfgang & left it over winter to brake down it killed of & rotted down most of the grass covering.
Then went through it with a cultivator to pull out any big lumps.
Then i turned it over in the spring with a folk & picked or raked of any roots.
I'm now quite clear of bindweed etc but unless you dig 3' deep you will never get rid of it all.
As Linda pointed out 16 years later it can still be there.
So this has taken me twenty minutes to type & all i wanted to say was don't kill yourself take your time & you will get there. :D
Hi vaca,
good luck with the plot.There's lots of really good suggestions here.I think you should take your time and do whatever you're comfortable with.
My own experience with couch grass echoes what some of the other posters have said.ie-that it's not as bad as it seems at first.
I found that by digging and then breaking the clods by wacking them with my fork I managed to get rid of most of the couch grass.I then added horse manure on the surface.
Later,I dug the manure in,removing as much of the remaining couch grass as i could.I then used this ground for growing potatoes,again,removing any weeds as I planted the spuds.
The main point was,that,every time you dig the soil it gets easier,until it's just a case of carefully removing any green shoots as they emerge.
If you do use a fork for breaking the clods with,it might be worth getting a fairly cheap,metal one from Wilko's or somewhere similar.I broke my nice Spear and Jackson one,quite quickly.
Either way Vaca,stick at it.It will get easier.
All The Best-Marky.
Quote from: markyb23 on September 05, 2005, 22:06:08
...I broke my nice Spear and Jackson one,quite quickly...
I broke my first one and I have now split the handle bit of my replacement - I haven't told them yet scared they will say twic is my fault. The cause - couch and stones predictably plus thistles etc.
PS I am composting everything including bindweed. I am hoping that two years and lots of (http://bestsmileys.com/peeing/1.gif) should do the trick.
Hi redclanger,
           I know that urine is supposed to work on bindweed for composting but once I dig the stuff out it never gets near soil again it gets burned. ;D
When I took on my plot it had two ancient compost heaps and they were the areas most infected by the weed. >:(
On the advice of our old timers I never try to compost any perennial weeds. ;)
The ashes however I store in plastic bags for spreading on the soil, i can't argue with their logic as every thing they have told me has proved to be correct. ;D
                             PREMTAL
the war is on ;D ... I've covered the entire plot with black polythene sheeting except for 2 beds which I'll use this autumn. I guess in the weeks to come, I'll slowly uncover sections, dig them up, weed them, and cover them up again. I'm aiming to dig over 1/2 the plot ready for spring and not worry about the other half... thanks to all for all the replies, it's really helped in geting my plot going and I now feel like I'm gaining some control over the plot :D
Keep checking under your black placcy from time to time to see how things are going. If I see weed free bit but the odd dock or dandelion I put a full thickness newspaper over it and replace black sheeting again. It soons gets rid of the odd weeds left over :) You can put manure under there if you wish as some of your beds will benefit from manure being incorporated. it will be fine over winter under the black mulch as worms will help take it down into, and incorporate into the soil, helping to break it up. Save you doing it :)
Quote from: wardy on September 04, 2005, 22:50:01
I am no dig as you all probably know by now and I think why dig if you don't have to and why do you ? My plot must be as productive as everyone elses but mine is achieved without digging so why bother ;D
Well...I sadly, and rather worryingly, enjoy digging! ;)
:P
Caz
Vaca, sounds like you are well away with the black plastic. Loads of great advice on this thread.
Baz and I have quite different digging styles. Baz is very thorough, picking up every weed, root and stone and doing a very good job, but its slow progress. I on the other hand tend to go a bit faster but end up with lumpier soil with some roots in. I then go back over the same ground and get the rest of the roots out. I like to see the digging progress quickly, wheras Baz doesn't mind how fast its going as long as what he does is wees and root free!
Here goes another dumb question..... ::)
If I were to rough dig a couple of beds and cover them up to stop the weeds over winter would the ground still get broken up by the frost?
I'm dithering over whether to dig rough and leave, dig rough and cover, not dig and cover...... Considering I'm likely to be very busy in the spring what would be best to do now to save work later? ;D
I've been debating the exact same thing... and have come to the following solution. 1/2 of the plot I'll just leave covered and assume I won't get to it before spring. All I did to it was strim it and cover it up. The other 1/2 I will use 1 beds (1.5m x 10m) to grow things this autumn and this bed will be dug up and weeded as best I can. The remainder of the plot will be made up of 3 further beds (1.5m x 10m) which I've strimmed and covered, but will uncover sections at a time, dig them, weed as best I can, and cover them again waiting for the winter to get at them. I've read somewhere that the clumps should be about the size of a fist when left overwinter - so that's what I'll do.
...but I'm sure others will have better ideas :-\
mubgrub, rough dig, then cover until november time. then uncover. the weeds wont really be growing and the few that will you can hand weed, then the frost will get to the soil too.
Quote from: adam04 on September 07, 2005, 21:04:26
mubgrub, rough dig, then cover until november time. then uncover. the weeds wont really be growing and the few that will you can hand weed, then the frost will get to the soil too.
Aaah, most cunning.... Thanks ;D