Seed Saving Circle 2024

[juliev]

The leek was probably a basic Musselburgh. No dividing/clumping/increasing like yours unfortunately, just a single shoot coming up in the Spring, followed by a flower. I let several varieties cross last year, some plants have disappeared completely but a good portion is sending a single shoot like my lone leek. I'm going to move them together to save seeds from them again. Exciting!

Thank you for introducing me to the Backyard Larder. There is a lot of information there (and a potential danger to my bank account...)

[juliev]

[juliev]

Hello everyone,

Can I share a dream project?

Seed Share Community Project.pdf

I am planning a practice seed swap at the end of the month (thank you Jan for your fantastic running of the seed circle, you are my Gold Standard!)

Any feedback would be really appreciated.
Best wishes

Julie

[JanG]

The leek was probably a basic Musselburgh. No dividing/clumping/increasing like yours unfortunately, just a single shoot coming up in the Spring, followed by a flower. I let several varieties cross last year, some plants have disappeared completely but a good portion is sending a single shoot like my lone leek. I'm going to move them together to save seeds from them again. Exciting!
 
Thank you for introducing me to the Backyard Larder. There is a lot of information there (and a potential danger to my bank account...)

I think from what you said in your original message that the same lone leek(probably Musselburgh) has survived several seasons? As far as I know that would be most unusual. Does it die down and come back like a Babington would? I'm intrigued to know more.

Yes, the Backyard Larder is great for starters of perennial vegetables.

[JanG]

Hello everyone,

Can I share a dream project?

Seed Share Community Project.pdf

I am planning a practice seed swap at the end of the month (thank you Jan for your fantastic running of the seed circle, you are my Gold Standard!)

Any feedback would be really appreciated.
Best wishes

Julie

Thanks for sharing your dream project, Julie. I think it's a very interesting and admirable proposal, and I know your experience with schools and community groups gives you a lot of insight into what would be of interest to such groups.

The project obviously has an interestingly different emphasis from the Seed Circle in that the Seed Circle concentrates on specific varieties and keeping them true, whereas the more mix-and-match basis of the community seed share in some ways requires a mental adjustment on the part of some of us who are more used to delighting in specific varieties with their own history etc!

My personal response is that I think this will be of great interest and use to community groups and I applaud it for that. It should encourage seed saving and that is wonderful. For me personally, I'd be delighted to do something interesting and useful with the excess bean, pea, tomato and possibly lettuce seeds I often have at the end of the season. I would like to keep an open mind as to whether I can develop an interest in growing and developing grexes. So, all in all, I'm up for the contributing element but less sure about whether I would request seeds. But above all I wish you the best of luck with this undertaking.

Coming to practicalities, I'd be delighted fairly immediately to contribute seeds of French beans - already mixed - and could probably put together a few more vegetable types. Do you want it to be a free for all donation in which anything goes - mixtures or single varieties - or do you want, for example, specific qualities marked such as early, robust, cold tolerant, tall, short?

Looking forward to hearing more and wishing you great success.

[juliev]

Your words of encouragement are greatly appreciated Jan, thank you!

I firmly have a foot in both camps. Growing single varieties for conservation and all the "geekiness" that comes with it really appeals to me. If it does well in my conditions and I can save good quality seeds then I will do so and keep it as a single variety. On the other hand, if it's a variety that's not reliable or I don't have enough garden space to save good seeds, mixing comes in handy. I can still have good quality seeds for that crop and even if I "lose" the original named variety, some of its genes will be shared in the mix. Carrots, onions, leeks, parsnips, radishes, squashes, brassicas, beetroots, corn etc are all exciting mixes for me that I would be struggling to save seeds for as single varieties. Crops that I thought were off limits are now part of my seed saving regulars and they are getting better every year.

Any seeds you are willing to share would be gratefully received! I try to group things so that they make sense both in the garden and the kitchen (eg, dwarf beans-fresh eating, dwarf beans-dry, brassica-kales/loose leaf, brassica-cabbages). But if they are already mixed together (all beans or peas together for example), then it's not much of a problem, especially as we're swapping seeds between seed savers/hobby breeders at this stage. I have several packets of seeds labelled "all mixed-sort out!".

[juliev]

   

The original leek is on the left. The flower stalk dies down and in the Spring a new shoot emerges. It's been doing that for several years, always in the same spot, definitely not a self sown seedling.
On the right, some that have sprouted from last year's stalk. They are all different varieties (one has actually got two shoots coming from it!).
So, they are not supposed to come back? Do we call them zombie leeks?

I need to check at the allotment if any are sprouting back...

I still need to clean the seeds (still recovering from doing the onions...), but I should have plenty to share. If it's genetic, some of the offspring should have the same potential.

[JanG]

Carrots, onions, leeks, parsnips, radishes, squashes, brassicas, beetroots, corn etc are all exciting mixes for me that I would be struggling to save seeds for as single varieties. Crops that I thought were off limits are now part of my seed saving regulars and they are getting better every year.

Any seeds you are willing to share would be gratefully received! I try to group things so that they make sense both in the garden and the kitchen (eg, dwarf beans-fresh eating, dwarf beans-dry, brassica-kales/loose leaf, brassica-cabbages). But if they are already mixed together (all beans or peas together for example), then it's not much of a problem, especially as we're swapping seeds between seed savers/hobby breeders at this stage. I have several packets of seeds labelled "all mixed-sort out!".

An interesting list of possible relaxation about crossing. Some random thoughts ...
I have had interbred squashes and they have always been fine in spite of warnings I've read that a cross might produce something fairly inedible.
Brassicas of course are very promiscuous and all tend to flower at around the same time so without some kind of management seeds might produce something of dubious food value perhaps.
I've just sown my own collected seeds of radishes without knowing which they came from so I'm interested to see how they turn out.
Corn has the additional problem of inbreeding depression without a sufficiently large population and some combinations of types producing tough kernels etc.
I can't see any problem with allowing the other crops you mention to intermingle. Being able to happily allow runner beans and broad beans to produce what they like would certainly be pleasantly freeing!

I suppose with crops which rarely cross, such as beans and tomatoes, a bag of mixed seed will produce a range of offspring which will be a different kind of resilience from the resilience resulting from crossed seed.

As is probably rather clear I'm intrigued by the idea of your project and still trying to get my head round its implications by thinking aloud - or whatever the typed version of thinking aloud is!

[JanG]

   

The original leek is on the left. The flower stalk dies down and in the Spring a new shoot emerges. It's been doing that for several years, always in the same spot, definitely not a self sown seedling.
On the right, some that have sprouted from last year's stalk. They are all different varieties (one has actually got two shoots coming from it!).
So, they are not supposed to come back? Do we call them zombie leeks?

I need to check at the allotment if any are sprouting back...

I still need to clean the seeds (still recovering from doing the onions...), but I should have plenty to share. If it's genetic, some of the offspring should have the same potential.

Thanks for the helpful photos. It looks to me as though your leeks are behaving quite like Babington leeks which die down and then produce new shoots form around last year's dead stem. Do your flower heads have bulbils at all? Babingtons produce bulbils at the expense of seeds so there is a difference there.

These leeks seem to have considerable potential. It definitely seems worth seeing what offspring come from the seeds they've produced.

[galina]

Juliev, wish you the best of luck for your community seed project.  Maybe a little more explanation might be needed to what groupings you are planning and why landrace.  I notice you aren't using that term.  Probably quite deliberately.   

What you have is a multiplying leek.  They have this tendency, some more some less.  But if you have a reliable one, especially a type that always produces several leeks from the base, that is very desirable.  Excellent, keep going with them.  Just replant singly and select for this tendency.  Maybe stop them from flowering eventually to force them a bit more.  Have you seen this video?https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+multiplier+leek&rlz=1C1AVNG_enGB689GB689&oq=youtube+multiplier+leek&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQRRhA0gEJNjk4MmowajE1qAIIsAIB8QX4AoCys9-AnQ&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:9c1efbdb,vid:5OEqDpRwyBg,st:0

We had onion Minogue in the seed circle a while ago.  This is really a mini leek rather than an onion, which is used like chives and it really multiplies from the base.  Looks like you are 'training' your Musselburghs to become perennial leeks too. 

[juliev]

Thank you Galina for the video link. There is one survivor at the allotment with 3 shoots! I'll definitely move all of them together and save seeds. Perennial/multiplying leek mix, here I come!

The mixes for the community project are not landraces as they are simply seeds that are sent in bulked together. For example, Jan's radish mix, my radish mix, a few pure heirloom radishes all mixed in. They create a supermix, but not a landrace. The genetic diversity in the mix could be the first step for people to develop their own landrace if they wish or just grow them out and enjoy a diverse crop. On top of all the benefits of growing mixes (simple to grow, resilient, varied harvest, relaxed seed saving...), it is also a lot easier logistically, only needing one bag/container per crop type.

The groupings are a work in progress as we all garden, harvest and cook differently so I am looking forward to discussing options with people taking part in the first few swaps.

[JanG]

As a bit of a purist (till now) in terms of seed-saving, there are one or two crops which I have for some time saved without worrying about varieties. Originally I tried out some different varieties of coriander, for bigger leaves, bigger seeds etc. Now I simply harvest coriander seeds and both cook with them and grow them on. Spinach is another crop I save generic seeds for and I no longer distinguish between flat leaved and curly parsley. So I suppose in those small ways it makes very good sense to abandon ruthless sorting.

I'm not sure in those cases whether I have a mixture or some kind of middling version. I guess it depends upon how prone to interbreeding the crop is.


In your community project would it be a good idea to specify some of the groupings which make sense either for growing or for cooking? In your previously attached summary you mention pea categories such as snap peas, soup peas, etc. Height seems to be another helpful grouping for both peas and beans. Habit of growth for tomatoes? Or do you prefer to let such categorisation evolve?

[galina]

Oh I get it now Juliev.  Sow one packet of radish, harvest a great variety of radishes and at different ripening times.  Sow one packet of edible podded peas, get a variety of green, yellow, purple and possibly red podded peas, both mangetouts and snaps.  If they save seeds from the radish mix, they will get a landrace, the peas not so much.  It is like the Morton's lettuce mixes.  Good luck for the project.

Yes indeed height is a very important category for gardeners Jan, as not everybody wants to deal with having to stake tall crops, especially for disabled or elderly gardeners in raised beds.   

[galina]

My multiplier leek.   I should have put the camera on the ground like you have, but I think you can see the leek babies ok. 

[JanG]

Having grown Babington leek for quite a few years now, I've never eaten it because I was waiting for it to bulk up. I took a bite of raw leaf yesterday and realised what a strong taste of garlic it has. I assume this is specific to Babington rather than other multiplier leeks.

I shall try cooking some today and see whether the strong taste remains.

What seems unusual perhaps about Juliev's leek is that it has evolved from an annual (biennial) leek like Musselburgh.

[galina]

Yes indeed Jan, but it disappears on cooking (to my palette anyway, which isn't very sophisticated. 

All leeks have this tendency more or less.  With cultivated leeks rather less, with Minogue (which is technically a leek), rather more.  The famous Welsh perennial leek also rather more.  The perennial leek that Telsing Andrews bred is a cross of Oerprei (which readily multiplies from the base) and a winterhardy leek St Victor, in order to achieve a winter hardy multiplier aka perennial leek for her harsher Canadian winters.   This is what I have. 

https://permaseminka.cz/jedle-trvalky/97-vytrvaly-porek-modrozeleny-grex.html

PS sorry you have to click the translate button, but at the bottom of the page is a button for more information, that tells you everything about how this leek was bred. 

PS2  Here is more information about Minogue Onions  https://backyardlarder.co.uk/shop/minogue-onion/

PS3  More information about Oerprei  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lIYEDN0nT0

[juliev]

Thank you Galina for the photo of your multiplier leeks.
I've found my 2023 list: the leeks I planted were Bleu de Solaise, Porbella, Giant Winter, Bandit, Elefant, Musselburgh. I selected the best 2-3 of each variety to go to seed and planted them in mixed groups. So it looks like several of those have a potential to multiply and become perennial.
Interesting note about the taste of Babington leeks.
Oerprei looks like a small elephant garlic (which is closer to a leek than a garlic, if I remember well...)

As you both pointed out, the groupings for grow outs and distribution will need to be quite specific as they will be aimed at the "general public", schools, seed libraries etc.
ps: Galina, your edible podded pea mix would look amazing and totally unique! Imagine such a mix growing in school gardens!

It's a bit more complicated for the seed swap... This is aimed at seed savers/hobby breeders. Some of them keep things together, have unstable material etc. Yes, I would prefer to have everything in its correct category (indeterminate cherry tomato, indeterminate slicer tomato, bush bean for fresh eating, bush bean for drying etc). But it would be a shame not to accept something because it's mixed up. I'd rather keep it separate and list it as such. For example, some people keep all their peas together (all sizes and types).  I wouldn't want to mix them with the distinct types but would happily grow them out to untangle them. I can then add them to their rightful categories. I know several people who would do the same, for certain crops and not others, depending of our own projects and interests. Labeling clearly will be crucial!

Jan, your coriander and spinach are prime examples of how we already save many seeds in a more relaxed way. We probably save a lot of flower seeds without worrying about crossing (aquilegia, foxgloves, nigella, poppies...). Yet, for vegetables, it just feels wrong, like we need special permission to relax or something terrible is going to happen. In reality, with a bit of education (to be aware of unwanted crosses) we can give easily save seeds for a wider range of crops and add some resilience to our seed saving practices.

[JanG]

Yes indeed Jan, but it disappears on cooking (to my palette anyway, which isn't very sophisticated. 

All leeks have this tendency more or less.  With cultivated leeks rather less, with Minogue (which is technically a leek), rather more.  The famous Welsh perennial leek also rather more.  The perennial leek that Telsing Andrews bred is a cross of Oerprei (which readily multiplies from the base) and a winterhardy leek St Victor, in order to achieve a winter hardy multiplier aka perennial leek for her harsher Canadian winters.   This is what I have. 

https://permaseminka.cz/jedle-trvalky/97-vytrvaly-porek-modrozeleny-grex.html

PS sorry you have to click the translate button, but at the bottom of the page is a button for more information, that tells you everything about how this leek was bred. 

PS2  Here is more information about Minogue Onions  https://backyardlarder.co.uk/shop/minogue-onion/

PS3  More information about Oerprei  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lIYEDN0nT0

Thank you for the links, Galina. I have seen/read the material before but good to be reminded and to have such material listed in one place.

Having cooked some Babington yesterday evening, I'd say the stronger taste persists a little and makes for an appealing  result. Even the biggest are smaller than most leeks so you need a good sized patch to provide many good helpings for two.

[JanG]

Jan, your coriander and spinach are prime examples of how we already save many seeds in a more relaxed way. We probably save a lot of flower seeds without worrying about crossing (aquilegia, foxgloves, nigella, poppies...). Yet, for vegetables, it just feels wrong, like we need special permission to relax or something terrible is going to happen. In reality, with a bit of education (to be aware of unwanted crosses) we can give easily save seeds for a wider range of crops and add some resilience to our seed saving practices.

My seed saving tends more towards the purist end but with exceptions. I get a great deal of enjoyment out of the whole heritage thing, being aware of the histories of varieties, being part of conserving some, enjoying the diversity but in a discrete way.

I can envisage, though, the two separate activities, interests and endeavours going on side by side with some crops managed for a genetically diverse, robust mix with particular criteria in mind, and other crops managed for the pleasure of collecting and delighting in more expected outcomes.

I don't think I've described two different pleasures clearly but I'm still thinking through what they may be! I was responding to the idea that letting things cross can feel 'wrong' but I do recognise that worrying about, say, broad bean or runner bean crossing is something that hangs over me a little, and probably others.

[galina]

Just researching how to get the tree peony started.  Is it really as lengthy and difficult as this?  Very mindful that after the more than six months to germination, there will be little time left to grow them before winter.  Are these instructions valid (from Google AI).  Should I start much later in the year, to give the seedlings a better growing chance next year? 

Hope somebody can give us the correct advice. 

To grow tree peonies from seed, you can start the seeds in a warm place, then move them to a cooler location. After the seedlings have developed roots, you can pot them up and grow them on.
Steps
Put seeds in a bag with slightly damp vermiculite or compost
Place the bag in a warm place (around 70°F) for 3 months
Move the bag to a cooler location (around 40°F) for 10–12 weeks
When shoots appear, remove the seeds from the bag and pot them up
Grow the seedlings on in a cool place
Gradually move the seedlings outside
Plant the seedlings in well-drained soil in a sunny or semi-shaded location

Thanks

[galina]

In Rushden where I had two large patches of BL, I tended to cut off the green tops for eating and only occasionally harvest them as whole leeks. I harvested them with secateurs effectively.  Then cut off the tough leaf tips and cook the mostly green foliage, leaving the white 'stumps' to regrow, which they readily did. It is however best to leave a couple of big stems unharvested, because those will flower and make top bulbils. 

BL also has side bulblets hanging off from the base, which mostly break off when the whole plant is pulled, similar to elephant garlic, but these germinate sporadically and sometimes only a year or two later.  Glad you liked the taste, yes definitely stronger than the 'white' leek that comes from a long blanched stem in the ground, but not particularly garlicky, when cooked.