Apple pollination

[Squashmad]

I wonder if someone here can advise me - I'm planning to order some fruit trees - most of which will be going on an allotment - about 5 mins walk from my home. We have 2 old apple trees in the garden and my next door neighbour has various fruit trees including John Downie, which I know is a good pollinator. One of my allotment neighbours has trained apple trees - but I don't know what sort they are yet. ..... what I was wondering is how far do bees travel when collecting pollen...are the trees in the home gardens too far away to act as pollinators? The reason being I fancy trying Winter Gem but see that it is not self fertile... any thoughts??

[Squashmad]

[Robert_Brenchley]

Bees travel as far as they need to; up to six miles is generally accepted for honeybees, and much longer distances have been recorded. Normally, they don't travel very far. It sounds, though, as if you've got plenty of apple trees around, so I'd have thought it would be OK.

[Squashmad]

Goody - thanks for that.  :D

[calendula]

you just need to make sure they are blossoming at the same type, i.e. in the same group to ensure good pollination - or do it by hand with a fine paintbrush  ;)

[valmarg]

Squashmad, If you belong to the RHS, there is an article in the October edition of their magazine The Garden on choosing apple trees, which gives details of rootstock varieties, and pollination groups.

If you're not a member, it may be one of the publications you can read in your local library.

If neither, and you would be interested in the article, I could try to get OH to scan it and post it here.  I'm no good at that sort of thing!!  Alternatively, I could get him to photocopy it and send it to you by snail-mail.

It is a very interesting article, and I think you would find it helpful.

valmarg

[Emagggie]

Please post it if poss, Valmarg! I would be interested too. I had thought of buying a self pollinating Cox soon, having taken half hearted advice from a local garden centre and I feel I need to know a bit more before I purchase.

[valmarg]

I shall get on to OH to post the article.

Whilst I'm relatively computer literate, this sort of thing is a bit beyond me!!

Anyway, it'll keep him out of mischief for a while. ;D ;D ;D

valmarg

[jennym]

Funnily enough, I have both Winter gem and Cox queen, which flower at around the same time and so I do get decent crops of apples from them.
Have always found useful information on pollination partners on the Keepers Nursery website - you get the catalogue pages for apples up, and there is a link for each variety that shows you other suitable varieties in bold. Here's a link to the first page: http://www.keepers-nursery.co.uk/product.aspx?id=ACKRUS

[Emagggie]

jennym that's a great site. Bookmarked!

[jennym]

Tis good ! :D

[Squashmad]

Thanks for the info everyone. Thanks for telling me about the article in the RHS mag - we get that in the library where I work - so I'll check that out.

[valmarg]

Sorry Emaggie, OH has let me down.  He has scanned and put on to disc the article, but has not managed to post it.  Sorry.

valmarg

[Tee Gee]

To help Valmarg out and you here is the article courtesy of the RHS magazine 'The Garden' a monthly magazine well worth investing in.

Choosing apple trees
When choosing apples for your garden, consider site conditions, available space, cultivar, tree form, pollination group and, perhaps most critically, rootstocks
The ideal site for apples is a warm, sunny, sheltered south or west-facing slope.
Avoid frost pockets.
Deep, loamy, free-draining soil with pH around 6.5 is best.
Acid soil can be limed, and organic matter improves all soils.

Deciding on tree forms
Standard, half-standard and bush trees require the most space.
Restricted or trained forms need least space and include fans, cordons and espaliers, plus free­standing pyramids and spindle bushes.
Bush and standard trees are winter-pruned; restricted forms are summer-pruned to keep them compact and to encourage fruit over leafy growth.
Most apples are either 'tip-bearers' (fruiting on new growth at the tips) or 'spur bearers' (fruiting on short clusters of fat buds on older wood).
Spur bearers are the best choice for restricted forms.

Choosing your rootstocks
Apple cultivars are grafted onto rootstocks, the vigour of which influences tree size and their suitability for different soils:
• M27: highly dwarfing; only suitable for the most fertile soils. Trees need permanent staking; good for 'step-over' horizontal cordons; fruit in one to two years; tree height and spread as little as 90cm.
• M9: dwarfing; suitable for vigorous cultivars grown as cordons, pyramids or spindle bushes on fertile soils only. Quick to fruit; trees need permanent staking; tree height and spread 1.8-3m.
• M26: semi-dwarfing, suitable for restricted forms and for potted trees. Fairly quick fruiting; tree height and spread 2.4-3.6m.
• MM106: semi-vigorous; suitable for bushes and half-standards, and for restricted forms on poor soils or where large walls need covering. May not fruit well for four or five years; tree height and spread 3.6-5m.
• MM111: semi-vigorous; suitable for standards and half-standards; may not fruit well for four or five years; tree height and spread 4-6.5m.

Pollination groups
At least two cultivars should be grown, to allow for cross-pollination; even self-fertile
cultivars usually tiuit bettor with a cross-pollinator.
Flowering seasons must coincide or overlap, so apples are divided into seven pollination groups (see box, below). Usually, apples from the same or an adjacent group will cross-pollinate (a few are incompatible).
Most apples are diploid (normal number of chromosomes) but some are triploid, with an extra set of chromosomes, making their pollen infertile.
They require two pollinators, but cannot act as pollinator in return, so a third tree is needed to ensure fertilisation of the triploid cultivar and both its partners.
Apple pollination groups

Pollination groups show which apple cultivars flower when.
Cultivars should cross pollinate with apples in the same or adjacent groups.
To download an expanded list, visit: www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profiles1102/ApplePollinationGroups.pdf.

Group 1: earliest; pollinated by groups 1 & 2
Gravenstein (triploid)
Lord Suffield
Stark's Earliest (syn. Scarlet Pimpernel)

Group 2: early pollinated by groups 1, 2 & 3
Adams's Pearmain
Beauty of Bath (partial tip-bearer)
Christmas Pearmain
Egremont Russet
Idared
Lord Lambourne (partial tip-bearer)
Norfolk Beauty
Warner's King (triploid)
White Transparent

Group 3: early mid-season pollinated by groups 2, 3 & 4
Barnack Orange
Bramley's Seedling(triploid, partial tip- bearer)
Cox's Orange Pippin */**
Falstaff
Granny Smith
Greensleeves
James Grieve
Jonagold (triploid)
Jupiter (triploid)
Kidd's Orange Red' *
Redsleeves
Saint Cecilia
Scotch Dumpling
Spartan
Worcester Pearmain (tip-bearer)

Group 4: mid-season pollinated by groups 3, 4 & 5
Ashmead's Kernel
Claygate Pearmain
Cornish Aromatic
Gala
Golden Delicious
Howgate Wonder
Ingrid Marie
Laxton's Superb
Laxton's Pearmain
Orleans Reinette
Tydeman's Late Orange

Group 5: late mid-season pollinated by groups 4, 5 & 6
Coronation
King of the Pippins (syn. Reine des Reinettes)
Newton Wonder
Suntan (triploid) *
William Crump
Woolbrook Pippin

Group 6: late pollinated by groups 5, 6 & 7
Edward VII
Laxton's Royalty

Group 7: latest pollinated by group 6
Crawley Beauty

Note; cultivars having single* or double** stars are incompatible with each other

For poor conditions
Some cultivars are tougher than others; these will cope better with less than ideal conditions such as exposed sites and poor soils, although yields will probably be lower.

For northern, exposed or cold sites
(c = cooking apple; others are dessert):
Dummellor's Seedling (syn. Dumelow's Seedling)
C, Lane's Prince Albert
C, Egremont Russet,
Red Windsor,
Red Falstaff,
Edward VII,
Fiesta
Suntan.
Among the best apples for thin, chalky soils are
Charles Ross
Greensleeves.

FOR APPLES IN SMALL SPACES
Grow restricted forms against walls, fences, or post-and-wire supports.
• Avoid tip-bearers, such as Discovery and Bramley's Seedling. 
Grow step-over horizontal cordons on highly dwarfing M27 rootstock.
• Grow apples on M26 rootstock in a 45cm diameter pot. 
Try a Ballerina tree, bred to be columnar and compact.
• Family trees have two or three com­patible cultivars grafted onto one trunk.
• Check what your neighbours are growing  their apple or crab apple may cross pollinate yours.

[real food]

I would comment on the list of apples for cold, Northern areas, in relation to Fiesta.
I planted Fiesta, in my allotment in Glasgow and it is a disaster through Canker attacks. It is so bad that I am going to have to remove it and replace it with something else, but what?
I also have James Grieve, a lovely tasting apple, but also known for Canker.
Fiesta is proving to be much worse for Canker than even James Grieve.
So unfortunately, even the RHS advice is not always correct.

[Emagggie]

Thankyou very much from me,Tee Gee. That's brilliant. I will print off and inwardly digest before I go a huntin' for my tree.