Topic: cultivation and sheds etc

[brownowl23]

OK ive had my plots for 2 years. My plot was prior to my taking it on just one big plot, and all the compost heap, shed and a couple of very large trees, are all on what is now the "B" side. Now this obviously isnt a problem when its all one plot but as it stands as two halves of a whole then it means they hog alot of a half plot

Ive had cultivation notices for both years ive had my "b" plot and pleaded with the council to keep my plot, and I found this quite upsetting last year as i'd worked really hard particularly on the "b" side of the plot.

Well having got my bill for this year for both sides of the plot, and ive scurtinised all the information that goes with it. sheds trees and compost heaps all have to take up less than 25% of the plot or half plot, which on my "b"side is not the case they take up more.

Ive decided to phone the council later today and ask for a meeting on plot so that they can see my problems and ask if, as I own both "A" and "B" side, that the tenancy can be rewritten so that it is once again just plot 23. After all if they took this half the plot away from me then the next person would have the same cultivation issue.

Its not as if I havent been working hard ive been down on plot diggin both this week and last to try and get all my winter/spring digging done so that I pass the next inspections and ime really looking forward to this years growing season so many scrummy things to grow

does anyone else have any advice before I commence battle ;)

[Ellen K]

It is a bit early for straight talking but TBH it sounds like you think that merging the 2 plots will make it difficult for the Council to take either A or B away from you if you get another letter about non-cultivation.

So I don't think they'll buy it. 

The first year or two can be really hard when you get a new plot, I am in the same place, this will be my 3rd year and even now I am not on top of it.  But things improve as you become more efficient and you start to tame a plot.  But you need to do some very clear thinking about whether the plot is too much and would you do better giving some of it up. 

[Robert_Brenchley]

If both sides of the plot have been worked to an adequate standard, and the problem is simply that you have your bins etc under the trees, I wouldn't think they've got much of a case. Try a local councillor or your MP. The trees predated your tenancy so they shouldn't be a problem. What size are they - are they too big for you to reasonably cut them down yourself?

[Unwashed]

Brownowl23, do you actually have two seperate tenancy agreements for the A and B sides?

What kind of trees are they, and how big exactly - tell me the diameter of the stem at chest height - ,and how old would you guess.

Could you cut the trees down if you wanted to?  Would you want to?

Would you be within the 25% thing if you moved the compost bin.

Could you put a growbag on top of the compost bin and call it a raised bed?

Could you give the council back the portion of the B-plot with the trees on it?

How big is the b-plot?

[brownowl23]

both plots are 125square meteres (pr is it feet, whatever the standard is) so ive 250 overall. the trees are a very very old apple tree ( has a serious lean and a very large set of roots and a big plum tree. the compost area which is very well constructed to the point of being indestructable is next to the apple tree but it is big. its too well built for me to destruct and move on my own.
 The plum tree has nothing under but roots are close to the surface so unless I did raised beds then nothing would grow under it. Unless of course I threw some country garden seed under it and then I suppose it would class as cultivated but I dont feeel this is the spirit of allotments.

The trees are way too big for me to be able to cut down myself and I wouldnt want to as they are great for fruit

Ive also got a fox in the compost heap that I am trying to get rid of,  although council arent being that helpful, in fact their no 1  suggested repellant is  renardine which is banned!! they also sent me a leaflet more designed for households than allotment holders. Ive had better advice on here to be honest.

 Yes I do have two seperate tenancy agreements, and if combined I would be within the 25% cultivation rule. The trees and shed and heap make up about 35-40% of the "b" plot.  Hence the fact they are saying that depite all beds ebing cultivated its not cultivated enough in the past, which by thier rules is right.
They decided at the time I took it on that they had a big waiting list and would split plots across the middle with no account of if they would pass cultivation, but if someone wanted two half plots they could take them.  They now have no waiting list at all and empty plots on our site.

the council annoy me as I was offered a previous plot prior to taking mine on that allegedly had 3 huge bullace? (plum like treees) on it. They swore to me they were fruit trees and now ive seen them in leaf they are clearly an oak, and 2 sycamore.  So the council just want to get plots rented but will then complain that you arent doing what the rules state you should.

What I am trying to do now I realise ive a problem is find a solution that will keep me within thier rules.

[Unwashed]

I'm guessing that the agreement allows you to have trees - well fruit tress count as cultivation, and a big tree casts a big shadow which obviously you can't grow anything else on.  So add all of the area taken up by the trees to the cultivated tally and where are you now?

[brownowl23]

the agreement allows trees but you have to grow under them, which as you say not alot will grow in ground with big roots and lots of shade.  if the trees alone counted as cultived then I probably should be OK.

[elvis2003]

Does your site have a committee that can help you with this? there may be historical knowledge of the tress they can help you with,ie what the last tenant did to cope with this situation?

[Ellen K]

It sounds like all this dates back to before the area became an allotment site.  Who plants an oak and 2 sycamores on their plot?  Our site is the same, a few plots have trees from when the site was a council playground; you can't grow much near them and you'd need a chainsaw and a digger to get them out.  They must understand that, surely, when you point it out to them?

[Unwashed]

the agreement allows trees but you have to grow under them, which as you say not alot will grow in ground with big roots and lots of shade.  if the trees alone counted as cultived then I probably should be OK.

Can you quote the rule please.  It sounds ridiculous.

[brownowl23]

i'll put up the paragraph out of the info weve been send and the t&c's from the tenancy when I can locate it. this will be tonight though as boys want a train track ;) No rest for mummy :)

[Robert_Brenchley]

There are things you can grow under a tree, raspberries, for instance. I do think they're being childish, though. If I was in your position I'd complain, either to a councillor or my MP if that failed.

[Unwashed]

There are things you can grow under a tree, raspberries, for instance. I do think they're being childish, though. If I was in your position I'd complain, either to a councillor or my MP if that failed.

I guess their intention might be to allow small trees, where the smallness is defined by them not casting significant shade, such as cordons and espalliers, and I can understand reasons for doing that, but if that's the case they would have been better to say so explicitly because it's not unheard of to be allowed to grow standards.  And in any case, as the tenant is taking on a plot with existing standards it seems perverse to demand that the ground under the tree is cultivated.  Can you eat wood sorrel?

[Robert_Brenchley]

We have lots of standard trees on our site, it's a feature that we (and the Council) are keen to retain. If they wanted to restrict the type of tree, they'd need to say so explicitly. It would be too late in the case of an existing tree anyway.

Wood sorrel is edible, and some of us grow a South American species!

[pigeonseed]

To me it sounds like they're not acting in the spirit of the rules. And making more work for themselves as a result.

Surely this is land which has been subsidised by the tax payer to help people grow fruit and veg, and the only reason to start the 75% cultivation rule is to stop people renting it and then covering it with paving and deck chairs. When we look at you, you are using this land as it was intended, to grow fruit and veg. Job done for the council - no need to worry.

Why are they fussing about it? ???

[tonybloke]

To me it sounds like they're not acting in the spirit of the rules. And making more work for themselves as a result.

Surely this is land which has been subsidised by the tax payer to help people grow fruit and veg, and the only reason to start the 75% cultivation rule is to stop people renting it and then covering it with paving and deck chairs. When we look at you, you are using this land as it was intended, to grow fruit and veg. Job done for the council - no need to worry.

Why are they fussing about it? ???

why do you assume that allotments are subsidised by the tax-payer?
well  run sites (and they may also be self-managed) should cost the council nothing to run!! (ours don't cost the tax-payer anything)
well, they do put my number on their website, but the cost ain't much for just that.

[pigeonseed]

If the council run sites, they have to employ a person or people to manage them, which is expensive, they do things like rubbish collection and boundary maintenance, occasionally there may be legal disputes (as is the case with a neighbouring property on our site), public funds are sometimes available to improve allotment sites (eg toilets or water or sheds). They sometimes pay contractors to maintain sites (as is the case on ours).

Also the council keep land available for allotments, which might be valuable land for development.

I know the situation varies a lot from place to place, but in lots of areas there must be many ways in which public funds subsidise allotments.

I'm not complaining about that, I think it's a good thing to spend money on.

[brownowl23]

Our allotment plots are in a corner of a recreation ground (a large one) and are run by the council. They have in our pack with out bill sent a survey and one of the questions was would you be willing t be a delegate for delegated management, to which I have answered yes.

The blurb re trees in my bill pack is - HOw an I grow trees without breaching cultivation rules?
PLanting large areas of trees that exceed 25 % of your allotment plot allowed within your leisure area will be in breach of rules. In order to grow fruit trees and include it within your cultivated area you will need to grow crops underneath trees. All fruit trees must be on dwarf stock and kept to an acceptable height so that they do not cause excessive shading.

The trees I have are standards, the apple tree is big but as it leans it only goes over my plot, and the compost area which is big (excessive really but what was already there) is under it. At the minute there is no way I can demolish the compost heap a) because I have a fox in it    b) its so big it would require at least two of us and a sldge hammer c) because ive done my back in and I think my osteopath might bury me 6ft under if I did anything as strenous as that, she's already going to kill me today for digging but hey, I class it as a good gym workout.
In our conditions of tenancy it states that you must have prior written consent from the council  to prune trees

We have only just started to have rubbish collections ( 2 in the last 6 months), but by the time I got there at 9.30 am the skip had been filled. seems that I underestimated the fact that normally i see no-one on site at weekends before the afternoon, so I thought 9.30 was early enough. the second one I missed as I was on holiday. I am going to ask if  we can have another one soon.

[Robert_Brenchley]

That's OK for newly planted trees, but I don't see how it can reasonably be applied retrospectively; you didn't 'plant' the trees. When did the rule come into force?

[Unwashed]

Brownowl, can you post the actual term of the tenancy agreement that says about growing stuff under trees, because I think what you've posted is your council's comments on what you're doing, and we need to see the actual ruloe they're relying on.  Thanks.