Topic: My property is my property

[tabbycat]

I agree completely with what everyone has said previously, and if they were my hard-to-come-by pallets, I'd have taken them back pretty darn quick, BUT, have you thought that this may also be a cultural issue. You say that the lady in question is African. I take that to mean that she's an immigrant. Maybe in her culture there is a different attitude to private space & borrowing stuff. I'm not condoning what she's done, but maybe she just doesn't see it the way we do over here - we are more aware of "boundaries" and "tresspass" in Britain, both physical and emotional.

I only ask because we've had a similar problem at home. We live in a small close of 5 houses & even though our front gardens blend into one another's, we all respect the invisible boundaries. One of the houses is rented by a group of lads, one of whom has a Polish girlfriend. She uses her mobile outside (better reception) and has taken to wandering around and through all our front gardens as she talks. My neighbour found her sitting on his lawn with her back resting against his front wall! All the while, she's having a very animated conversation in Polish! She's so loud, you can't hear the TV!

When we spoke to her about it, we realised that she had absolutely no concept of private gardens. She'd always lived in a flat in Poland and all the outside space was communal. She was simply doing what she'd always done & had no idea that she was behaving unacceptably. She thought that as there were no fences, she could walk & sit where she liked.

Maybe this woman is the same - she maybe has no idea how annoying & shelfish her behaviour is.

On the other hand, she may know full well & just have no shame - in which case, ignore this whole post and take your pallets back!!! ;D

[cambourne7]

completly agree with all that is said although i have been known to 'BORROW' a wheelbarrow from the odd plot but the allotment holder had said i could borrow at any time and i usualy return it full of compost for them :-) as a thank you.

As our lotties only been there for 18 months we still have a very friendly attmosphere but i have been to other sites to visit people and i have heard some horror tales about how the allotment mafia run sites and how in some green eyed mostors and crime are present in some form either from fellow allotment holders or kids.

[Common_Clay]

Tabbycat, I think you're right, I do think this is a cultural issue. It's a difficult one though, as I said before she always asks me for something every time I see her... unfortunately I didn't help this as at first I was really trying to help her to become an allotment holder as she's desperate for African produce that she can't buy over here. I suppose I felt quite sorry for her really as she's got a small army of children she has to control and English not being her first language, even the term 'allotment' was baffling to her. So, what with finding numbers for her, meeting her to look at plots, writing out forms with her, going to the trading shed to look for someone to rent her a rotovator because she'd miss church if she went herself, lending her tools, going round the houses trying to help her out because I'm such a mug, I find it hard to say "no". Anyway, then she wants me to carry carpet over from her house (I've done my back in) to which I didn't entertain. Then came the request for me to buy her ground cover from the trading shed because again she'd miss church if she went... to wanting ME to measure out her plot to see how much she'd need... it just goes on.
Arrghhh. Sorry everyone for the rant.

Anyway, I find it hard to grasp any culture that accepts this form of take, take, take, as being fair or reasonable. If it is a culture issue such as your Polish neighbour, how do you go about pointing that out without hurting feelings? All I can do is say "no".

[MrsKP]

You're assuming that you're going to hurt her feelings, when infact she'll probably be quite pragmatic, shrug her shoulders and find someone else to freeload off.

Do your best and the lengths you're prepared to go to to help her (you could even teach each other a new language) but be quite firm about what is acceptable on your plot and what isn't.

[ruffmeister]

at the end of the day this cannot go on forever really, not only is this going to  tire you out and possibly make you ill. but your plot will suffer and hers will prosper. You will just have strong and tell her. we had someone on our site and we had bought our rotorvator over to turn the soil over on our first 'proper' day down there. they saw us doing it and said you could do my plotS!!! thought cheeky, no could i borrow or could i help, or offer of money or offer of petrol, just you can do my plotS. Said yes at first not wanting to offend anyone but then realise what he had asked with his 4 plots. grrr, then politley made our excuses. Since then he has still be friendly and talkative and offers verbal advice, but now doesnt take the mick. I think you will have to bite the bullet and tell her :-)

[tabbycat]

I think that cultural issue or not you can't have her taking advantage of you. She really seems to be the type that will push and push and take and take. I just mentioned the whole different culture thing because it may help you to be able to say no and set out the ground rules of what she can and can't do, but avoid much of the anger or worry that comes with issues like this

Our Polish neighbour wasn't hurt by us explaining about our gardens, she was just happy to have some one explain "the rules" to her. But we went to talk to her, we were very defensive because we just thought she was doing it because she didn't care. It could have got really confrontational.

What I'm trying to say by all this rambling is... if you do go and speak to her about her behaviour, which judging by your last post, you need to, it may not be as bad as you think. As Mrs KP says, she will probably be ok about it and turn her attentions to someone else.

Good luck! :)

[Robert_Brenchley]

African or no, put your foot down and explain, as tactfully as you can, what's acceptable and what isn't. She may have got the idea that this is OK with you, which is why I'm advising tact. What part of Africa is she from? There are a few specific cultures which don't have the concept of private property, but the vast majority do. My wife's African, and I've yet to meet anyone who didn't know the difference between mine and thine, at least in theory. Every culture has its minority of thieves, and they're not gentle with them over there, but I'm not certain this is actually 'taking with the intent to permanently deprive'.

[Common_Clay]

Thanks for everyone's comments, it's been very helpful to have a place to get feedback on something like this.

I haven't seen her on the plot recently, which has helped.

Robert, she is from the Congo, but I know very little of the area, perhaps you could shed some light if this is one of the minority areas that don't define between other people's property.

Thanks again to everyone.

[triffid]

Poor you. I have to second everyone else's thoughts: it looks as if you've been too kind -- pulling back politely is necessary for your own sanity. Come up with reasons to be busy so you can politely turn down her requests to fetch/carry/buy for her.

Has this woman attached herself to you particularly, or is she 'needy' with other plotholders too? I ask because if she is, you may be able to ask your site rep or council allotment rep to have a quiet word. Regardless of cultural issues, she needs to know what is unacceptable in her present environment or she will alienate people at every turn -- not just on the allotment.

[tabbycat]

It's me again.... ;D

Been thinking about this lots. If it were happening to me, I know that I would have a real problem talking to her about it, because I really don't like confrontation and will go out of my way to avoid it.

One thing I will say is that having worked in London for many years and with many different nationalities, most other nations are way more "up-front" about their feelings than we are. They have absolutely no problem in saying how they feel. It's us British that tie ourselves in knots at the thought of having to do so. we've developed this unspoken, invisible rules of conduct thing that we all grow up with, and most of us stick to. We're very good at not overstepping people's boundaries in anyway, be they mental or physical ones.

As Robert put it so well....

I'm not certain this is actually 'taking with the intent to permanently deprive'.

I just think that she maybe takes the attitude that if there was a problem you'd say something and as you haven't then she sees it as OK to carry on asking you to do things and using your lottie stuff.

Tabby

[Robert_Brenchley]

None of the Central Africans I've met have any trouble distinguishing between peoples' property! She may just have the idea you don't mind her borrowing your stuff, that's the only thing. A tactful word would probably sort it.

[kt.]

Got a great idea for you to get your pallets back:

Say you need them and build an extra compost bin or something but utilise them even if you dont use wot you build. Even if you break them down to build a small picket fence and gate around your plot!

You say she only wanted them to hold down a tarpolin. Well to do this you get some carrier bags - fill them with soil (from her plot)- and place as many of them around the tarpolin as required to hold it down secure. This way she no longer has a need for your pallets as she has an alternative weight doing the same job! ;)

Afterwards, each time she asks for something say you need it or are going to use it for blah blah blah

[Common_Clay]

Thanks ktlawson!
  Really like the soil in the bag idea, hadn't actually thought of that!  :)

[louise stella]

I'm new to all this but on my site, we have an area for anything that is "free" to whoever wants it and you can leave things there if you don't want them anymore.  This seems to be respected - and there is also a sunday morning shop for seeds and supplies etc and you can donate anything of any value to that to help raise a few pennies for the "shop" etc.

Louise
XX

[cornykev]

:D ;D ;D  By my reckoning CC she's had your pallets for over 12 weeks now, go and demand them back, no more mister nice guy enough is enough if you don't get them back give us a shout I'll come and get them myself Harrow's not that far >:( >:( >:( >:(

[Common_Clay]

Thanks cornykev!!
  You're right, it must be some weeks now, but what with the weather and a lot of decorating to do, I haven't been to the allotments for a while.
  I did go to the park at the weekend though, which backs onto the allotments and her plot has completely flooded over the carpet that the (my) pallets are holding down. For all the agro it's caused me, I don't wish that on anyone and won't bother taking any drastic action, at least not at the moment!
  To be honest, I feel it's all a bit petty now that the time's gone on... if I need them in Spring I'll get them back then. I just know that I'll be a lot more head-strong if she takes something without asking again.

Where are you then if Harrow's not far?  :)

[cornykev]

 ;D   I'm in Enfield not far as the CROW flies, but if you need me I'll be RIPE over to help you, I know youv'e BEAN upset so I'll prove I'm no WEED I won't RUNNER way if I have to I will SLUG in out with her careful thou she does't PLANT one on me, anyway as you said we'll LEAF it till the spring.
 :) ;) :D ;D :-*

[Common_Clay]

Cornykev... that was funny  ;D Thank you, you sound so up for it she might SOIL her pants, but for now I don't want to look like a GRASS, and besides, I've more or less SHED the emotions I had about it. However, it's a kind offer that you'd SHOOT on over, Enfield isn't so far if you have a good ROOT. Hehe  ;)

[cornykev]

;D At last someone with my sense of humour. ;D :D ;D :D ;) ;) :-* :-*

[allotmentholder]

yes your write about it being yours and they should ask but be warned if you make a fuss dont let happen to you wat happened to me i caught the chairman of our allotment association steeling from my allotment the police were called and he was cautioned for theft but i had to suffer the .association refused my rent the following year and they tryed to evicte me i complained to the parrish councill but got no were and it was only when the nationall alotments associatiuon got involved was the matter resolved but im still under threat