Topic: Torture kids

[Froglegs]

A case review strongly criticised the poilice and social services and said " many lessons " needed to be learned.

How many times have you heard this, I for one I'm sick of lessons being learned..how about putting them into practise.

[betula]

Fed up with the same old bla bla bla...........I agree

Those evil kids need to go to something like a boot camp before they have any hope of rehabilitation and the parents locked up and the key thrown away.

Too many do gooders banging on about civil rights........with rights come responsibilities.

Name them and shame them. >:(

[Mortality]

From what Ive read about this, those 'evil kids' have 5 other brothers, I wonder what they are like?

They had a father who beat them and a mother who couldn't careless about what they did, allowing them to watch violent movies and such.

Incidentially one artical said the father had an allotment upon which he grew Cannibis....

Sounds like such a lovely home environment..

[Bugloss2009]

they weren't born evil

what surprises me about kids today is not that they're all wild and crazy, but that most of them are pretty well adjusted. If you took me as an 11 year old from the 70s and plonked me in 2010, i'd go crazy in a bad way pretty quick. I'd either probably refuse to go out, or end up starting a bloodbath at school

[Mortality]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8476363.stm

Parents might be charged.

[betula]

No,none of us are born evil.

The only saving grace they have is that they are kids.

We are now seeing all to regularly the results of the Do Gooders actions in our society.

People who have no idea of right from wrong.

We have a country where the people involved in criminal activity have more indulgence than the victims.

How many thousands will be spent on the poor lads who were tortured and sexually abused.............none I suspect...........how much will be spent on the criminals,and I include the parents in that.............several thousand...........makes me sick.

[Froglegs]

They had a father who beat them and a mother who couldn't careless about what they did, allowing them to watch violent movies and such.

Poilice,social services,teachers and neighbors where were they when this was all going on.

[w00dy]

I agree the government allways seem to be reactive rather than proactive.  I.E Sept 11 happened so airport security tightens up, why was i t not tight in the first place, then there was the Baby P incident again, investigations and inquirys AFTER things have gone wrong, i agree this should happen so that i does happen again, but surely to god it would be better to avoid it all together, after all its not like social services didnt have numerous chances to do something.  I agree that the parents of the children involved should be charged with negect as they obviously neglected to give a d**n how thier children were turning out, maybee then this would send a message to other neglegent parents.

Rant over

w00dy.

[debster]

the two boys who commited the crimes alledgedly were allowed to watch porn, and violent movies at home and smoke the cannabis grown by their parents
i also believe there were many previous incidents when these boys should have been stopped.

in my job i frequently send referrals to social services and we are supposed to hear back about every single case, in almost two years i have never ever heard back, their reasoning there is one person to do everything for the whole of the area  >:(

[ACE]

some of these so called parents do no not have any family/parenting skills at all. So this problem goes back at least another generation.  That is my generation, we were preaching love and peace, flower power and all that jazz. What went wrong?

The wild kids must have come from all those neglected and forsaken kids that were stuck into childrens homes with all the abuse and terrors that went with them. I was lucky, I got adopted, I was given the skills but at the same time I was also brutalised. This was a long time ago and even though I was a bit of an animal in my youth I am very pleased that my own children never had to go through any of those traumas. They are very attentive parents and would not dream of even smacking my grandchildren.

Lets not blame the parents and the kids. It is the system that has let them down

[Obelixx]

I disagree.  Parents have the first responsibility to their children, themselves and the society they live in to socialise their children and teach them how to behave and respect themselves and others.   

 Some people have children without thinking about how to bring them up and expect others to do it for them.  Some parents are just lazy or don't care whilst others believe rules and discipline are all too bourgeois and want their kids to be free of such chains.

Then there is the so called underclass with no hope or intention of getting a decent job, making sure their kids are well fed and clothed and get an education, combined with teachers who too often have low expectations of deprived children. 

Successive governments have taken away the right to discipline children at school, allowed class sizes to get too big and school buildings and resources to be neglected to save money.   These same politicians often came through the 11+, grammar school and fees paid university system that allowed them to do better than their parents and guaranteed social mobility for those who wanted to grasp the opportunities and yet they’ve taken away that system for their successors.

These two boys are symptomatic of a society where individuals are all too easily grouped into a « failed » box and abandoned by both central and local government from housing to schools, health care to social services support and neighbourhood policing.

We need better education, training and pay scales plus resources for teachers, social workers, the police and anyone else concerned with the development of our children and thus the country’s future so that every individual can grow up safe and secure and reach their potential with a reduced safety net for slackers and miscreants and compulsive re-education for those who clearly lack social and parenting skills.

Investment in youth clubs and other activities would also help keep bored youngsters off the street and too busy to cause trouble or even want it and would be so much cheaper than always mopping up afterwards.

[Paulines7]

  Paragraphed below.


No,none of us are born evil.  I agree entirely
The only saving grace they have is that they are kids.Yes, hopefully it will not be too late to help them
We are now seeing all to regularly the results of the Do Gooders actions in our society. People who have no idea of right from wrong. I can't agree with this statement as there are many people that do a lot to help others.  Those that I know certainly know right from wrong.
We have a country where the people involved in criminal activity have more indulgence than the victims.  They often need more help to stop the crimes re-occurring.

How many thousands will be spent on the poor lads who were tortured and sexually abused.............none I suspect...........how much will be spent on the criminals,and I include the parents in that.............several thousand...........makes me sick.  I believe that a lot of resources will be spent on the victims helping them to get over their ordeal and deservedly so but far more will need to be spent on the aggressors if they are to ever be part of society.  Why does this make you sick Betula?  These boys, as everyone agrees so far, were born as innocent children.  It is their nurture that has turned them into what they are today.

I agree with most of what ACE has said in his post.  My grandchildren aren't smacked either yet both are really well behaved.  They are fortunate that they were born into a caring family.  More could be done in society for those children who need help but at the end of the day, no-one wants to pay more tax and social services will be limited according to the funds they are allotted. 

[betula]

Well as you have asked me directly Pauline I will answer you.

I do not want to debate it as I do not want to get into an argument.

Most people have just put their point of view and I am happy to do the same.

[Jeannine]

I think it is easy for us to debate this but not so easy to fix it.

I have sat in countless meetings with 24 /25 professionals round a table with a "problem family". It seems the only thing you could count on would be that next month you would be back again. It was  very frustrating. It always seemed to me that all the initiatives were there but none of them had any teeth. Another thing was it varied tremendously on which Social Worker had the case, I learned very early on that  some names on a case heading were a relief and others a groan.

I  agree the system stinks, add to that the families where education, healthcare and parenting simple are not a priority and the kids don't stand a chance.

Parents are the real teachers  in this world so if they can't or won't teach appropriate skills to their families the kids can only learn what is on offer to them.

It shouldn't be like is but it is the reality..sadly.

XX Jeannine

[emmy1978]

Parents are the real teachers  in this world so if they can't or won't teach appropriate skills to their families the kids can only learn what is on offer to them.

It shouldn't be like is but it is the reality..sadly.

XX Jeannine

Well, I couldn't put it better, so I didn't.
What a horrific background these kids must have come from.

[Froglegs]

In a society where law and order have been put on the back burner for years now, because our governments think it better to spend millions on policing other country's and not our own it does not sirprise me that such a crime as   happened and will again.We now have to protect our kids from other kids,when will something be done about this ever decreasing circle we call society.

[emmy1978]

We have to protect kids like that from their parents.  :'( Then we won't have to protect other kids from them. Mary Bell and the boys involved in the Jamie Bulger murder share a background with these boys. It can't be a coincidence.
It makes me so mad that people bang on about paedophiles on their street and Sarah's Law and join pointless Facebook groups calling for the death penalty, when the problem is, and always has been since the NSPCC started keeping records that the percentage of children taken by a stranger to be abused and/or killed is 2%. The rest are at risk from those they love and trust.  :'( :'( :'(

[gwynnethmary]

Am taking a huge risk here with what I'm about to say, and I'm fully expecting to be shot down, but I have to say it!
Most people believe that children are born "innocent", and then "turn out" according to how they are nurtured.  This seems to make sense, but I think there's another way to look at it.  I believe we are all actually born with a leaning towards doing the wrong, rather than the right thing, wanting our own way, behaving selfishly , etc. (just watch the toddlers at playgroup!) The nurturing part is what we do to either help children to overcome those natural tendencies, or what we do(or don't do) to help them to go the other way.
The parents of the two boys who have done these terible things to other children do need to be held to account, not just for the actions of their children, but also for the damage they have done to them, over many years. 
All of the children involved need help.  The boys who were so badly hurt and abused will need wise counselling, by sensitive adults.  They will need to learn ways to cope with the anger and humiliation they probably feel without it turning to a hard core of bitterness inside them.  The other two , also victims in a sense, will need to feel that someone really cares about them enough to be bothered about what they do, because their parents don't appear to have been able to do that.
What they did was appalling, and they don't appear as yet to have any sense that it was wrong.  Maybe that would be the first step towards their "rehabiliation"?

[Old bird]

There has been many words written about these children and blame put towards the police, social workers etc.

I find it a terrible business altogether but the human being is still in some cases completely uncivilised.  Remember back to when the Serbs were killing Croats and all the unbelievably awful acts that adult men had inflilcted on other men, women and children. These men (before they turned on their "enemies" were husbands, sons, and fathers of "normal families".

The adults in this case have 5 or 7 children altogether.  All these children will be wild, damaged, and complete crackheads.  The parents are, in this case, to blame - although according to newspaper reports the mother has said that the boys are "nowt to do with me"   charming!


I do not think the police or social workers are to blame.  They have to do their best, but they are tied by the liberals who say no child should be taken into care and the police that can't do much because they are below the legal whatever age.  I am sure that they were picked up time and time again but were hamstrung because the parents didn't care and the social workers couldn't find a reason to take these apparently ghastly children into care.

Some people breed children into their lives because they "fall pregnant" (what a ridiculous saying that is!) they get housing, income support, child benefit and are completely feckless and don't care about what happens to the kids.  Presumably the other gardeners on this guys plot saw him growing cannabis - did they tell anyone or just help themselves to a bit??!!

I am apalled by the case - but, sadly, can see that this sort of thing is likely to happen time and time again - despite social workers, police or anyone elses intervention. 

Old Bird :(

 

[emmy1978]

I don't know about being born innocent or leaning towards one way of behaviour or another. All I can say from being a child, having children myself and now working with under 5's is that children represent their parents. The tired, poorly dressed, angry children have parents that match. The happy, confident, well taken care of children also have parents to match. The early years are so vitally important that I believe the Jesuits have a saying "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man".
Some children have a mean streak or a tendency to snatch or not share but handled corectly these habits are breakable and not character-shaping. Not challenged or corrected but shown that this plus force, abuse, deception and theft are acceptable ways to further your own ends I can't see how any child would come out a decent person.

I do not think the police or social workers are to blame. 
Old Bird :(

No, I agree. The parents are.