Allotments 4 All
Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: plainleaf on January 23, 2012, 21:28:17
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here is part of the tomato production date calculator for my book
you all can have copy if you want
there are two prototypes which i have worked out
all data in two prototypes is same only presentation is different.
there is only one catch i want know your options on the format.
which do think looks better in a book A or B
also tell me what clarity issues need to be improved
Prototype A
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5EI8oB2k8EWNjJmMDUyMmYtY2YzOC00ZDkwLTk2MTctMWEwYzBiYTliYTEy
(https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5EI8oB2k8EWNjJmMDUyMmYtY2YzOC00ZDkwLTk2MTctMWEwYzBiYTliYTEy)
Prototype B
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5EI8oB2k8EWOWJjMjYwZWItMjQ3Yy00OTAyLTgyZDMtNjIwZmY5OTQ0NWQy (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5EI8oB2k8EWOWJjMjYwZWItMjQ3Yy00OTAyLTgyZDMtNjIwZmY5OTQ0NWQy)
tfn plainleaf
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I'll need to print them out to compare PL. Will tomorrow do? I've been tidying the garden today and I'm cross-eyed!
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I would find chart 3 easier to use as the DTM are blocked together. Chart 3 has a better visual impact and would look better in print.
The chart probably contains too much information for most printed book sizes and might not be legible. Unless of course it is on one of those pages that you unfold out of the book. In an electronic book this would not be a problem but then you would use a calculator that you input the information and it gives you the dates.
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ophi i was thinking about breaking page in half horizontally. thank for your
opinion.
grawc take time i have a few weeks to here back from you all
i should be finish with book in October or so .
where colors used in chart clear enough.
ps i chose this forum as a focus group since know you all don't hold back with you opinions.
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I need my specs. ;D
I agree too much information. Needs simplifying.
Do get someone to check your grammar before you publish the book.
Good thing I am not blue green colour blind. My son would find this chart very unsatisfying.
You use the word Acclimation not sure this travels well. I would suggest acclimatization. We can accept the z instead of s but not the lack of the ize altogether.
How important is the chart to the book. Would it be cost effect to produce some kind of moveable system so the basic pattern is only produced once rather than 10 times down the page.
Chart needs title, key etc.
I am not clear what the first column i is about.
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digreroo there is a zoom feature on document
moveable system is not possible since there will be over 100 pages of charts with similar
specs several for each vegetable. even if it was one chart moveable system are not cost effective
the point of book is not book will be info very little fluff like most garden books contain.
DTM is common veg growing acronym days to maturity
Acclimation will not be an issue since i was looking for better way to describe transplant shock issues which usaully take about 14-15 days recover from
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I think it will probably be clearer with the DTMs grouped, but it is hard to tell until you have the real data to go in the chart.
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chrispy that is the real data
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This is a useful guide once you get you head round it. I can see a radical option that might work to drastically simplify it; The reason that the group of dtms is having to be repeated is that you are displaying three 'dimensions' of data in a two dimensional format. If the groups of dtms were stacked, then the resulting block viewed in a perspective view, you could still read the data.
Hmm, hard to put in words, but I can see it in my head.
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Sorry, I missed the point of the chart, as all the colour section does not actually tell you anything.
All you need is the table on the left bit that lists the DTM, start date, transplant date and harvest date.
All the coloured bits are a meaning less distraction, and frost dates are also meaningless as that depends where in the world you are.
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Sorry, I missed the point of the chart, as all the colour section does not actually tell you anything.
All you need is the table on the left bit that lists the DTM, start date, transplant date and harvest date.
All the coloured bits are a meaning less distraction, and frost dates are also meaningless as that depends where in the world you are.
I think that PL has provided the info in 2 ways - words and pictures (the coloured bit).To my mind that is good since people access information in different ways, i.e. what may be a distraction for you is how others will access the information.
Also to be critical of frost dates, I feel, is a bit unfair and, I think would invalidate most of the gardening books that I have. Most of them start out with the premise that you are based somewhere like Wisley and suggest you adjust frost dates for where you are.
There is a lot of info in the tables, PL, and I think you are right that you could split them horizontally into smaller chunks by "days to maturity" or planting date. That would make it easier to access the information, I think.
I think what you call acclimation/ acclimatisation is what I would call "hardening off" i.e. getting the plants ready for their transition to the big outdoors?
I am sure that your publisher will advise on what colours to use. For me it isn't an issue but I know some people (e.g. dyslexics) find some colours more accessible than others and, as Digeroo points out there may be issues for people with various types of colour blindness.
All in all I'm impressed. If you can break it up a bit so that it isn't such a woosh of information, I think it is really helpful. I would certainly use it. Well done!
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I preferred the second option with the dtms grouped together. Colour-wise I thought it was good. On the whole, the information is clear and accessible.
My questions though are - do I need to know the dtm for my varieties in order to make use of this? I don't think I have this information. Maybe I should read the seed packet again. Oh, I don't have a seed packet. Anyway, is this the same for greenhouse/outdoor cultivation? What if I start my tomatoes in February? I appreciated none of these questions may be relevant to your book, but I haven't read up on any background to this post. How do you envisage this being used?
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I think that PL has provided the info in 2 ways - words and pictures (the coloured bit).To my mind that is good since people access information in different ways, i.e. what may be a distraction for you is how others will access the information.
Yes, but it will restrict the format of the book to one large enough to be able to use the chart, or the chart would have to be a pull out section, either way, including such a chart will push up publishing cost, I think any publisher will say it was better not to have it.
Also to be critical of frost dates, I feel, is a bit unfair and, I think would invalidate most of the gardening books that I have. Most of them start out with the premise that you are based somewhere like Wisley and suggest you adjust frost dates for where you are.
There is a difference and between talking about frost dates, and actually putting one on a chart, what about leaving the frost dates out and then telling the reader to mark their own frost dates on the chart, you could include a table for frost dates for the major cities or states.
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And in what way does the tomato actually taste any better???
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My questions though are - do I need to know the dtm for my varieties in order to make use of this?
Variety DTM information would be something very useful to include in the book.
The problem I have with the whole thing, is if you start something a month earlier it does not mean the crop will start to produce a month earlier, as your table seems to show.
Of course, I am in the UK, with our variable weather, and I don't know in what context the chart will be used in, so I am wondering off topic a bit.
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I think there may be a difference between us and the US over DTM. Looking at a couple of random seed selling sites. Those stateside all show DTMs against almost every entry those here do not. As Chrispy says we are subject to a much larger range of variable summer weather patterns so the due date for the fruit is perhaps much more variable here.
I think the chart is useful in showing when to sow in comparison to your own frost date. If you take the red line as an example you can then draw your own line. I tend to sow all my tomatoes at once, plant them out about the same time, and wait for the fruit.
I think for that reason I also like option B (chart 3) as everything after the first block would be a waste of space for me.
Apart from calculating when to sow what is the point of the table. Was it an exercise in playing with IF functions and conditional formatting on a spreadsheet?
Is it not possible to use just one block and then put in a set variable cropping times on the right hand side depending on the DTM. You currently have two pinkish rectangles to indicate cropping, there is no reason not to have a series of ten rectangles one for each DTM.
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the point of charts
has to do with point of book
the book title is following
" Tactical Vegetable Gardening: A guide to Succession Cropping,Interval Cropping &
Companion planting.
grawrc hardening off is not included in chart
due to fact that would add about 15 more days pretransplant before
the last frost date. also plants planted after frost date do not need hardening but they do get transplant shock.
i only put frost date in chart to start calculations
as for date for major cities USA is really to big and varied to just include them and the comprehensive frost date chart listed by city runs over 100 pages.
what plan on doing about frost date is provide a range chart for that in book for
similar to the range chart used for tomatoes
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grawrc hardening off is not included in chart
due to fact that would add about 15 more days pretransplant before
the last frost date. also plants planted after frost date do not need hardening but they do get transplant shock.
You've got me confused now PL! So much so that I looked up "acclimation"in the Merriam-Webster onlinee dictionary where it says:
: the process or result of acclimating; especially : physiological adjustment by an organism to environmental change
If acclimation is not "hardening off" what is it?
I am in Scotland. I sow and grow indoors until the last frost date, then I harden off for 5-7 days , then I plant out. If I tried to harden off or plant out sooner, the young plants would die, although they are more frost resistant when they are full-grown. I might be able to get around that by planting in a hotbed and cloching but it doesn't really seem worth the extra effort for an extra couple of weeks. If I plant out even after the last frost date without hardening off first the plant can wilt and collapse . What you call transplant shock?
Anyway please explain acclimation!
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Did anyone ever get the difference between succession planting and interval planting?
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Did anyone ever get the difference between succession planting and interval planting?
interval planting :- sowing the same seeds at interval, what we call succession planting.
succession planting:- following one type of crop with another.
I think that was it.
I am totally lost with "acclimation" and "hardening off" I wait an explanation.
Meanwhile, I'm turning the fryer on, I fancy some fries crisps chips.
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Like Grawrc I am confused. I certainly do not like to give any transplant shock. I usually put them out during the day in a sheltered position and gradually get them used to the wind etc. Even after planting out they might get fleeced or cloched up on cold or windy days. I would reckon to try and keep them above about 7C as much as poss. I might also try and pick a warm spell of weather, but the forecasts are notoriously unreliable in their predictions here.
Acclimation and acclimating are not words in my vocabulary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acclimatization
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/914/
Though this article gives good info re hardening off, author must come from near you.
Davesgarden defines acclimation as hardening off:
http://davesgarden.com/guides/terms/go/2161/
I think you will find in gardening we here in the UK just call this hardening off.
I do think we are getting problems with nomenclature. Looks like we will need a translation.
I think we also call succession planting Catch cropping.
Then there is intercropping - two different crop at the same time
and Companion planting - growing flowers etc amongst the veg to attract bees and deter pest.
I spent years working with charts, figures and spreadsheets. I still find your charts rather daunting. I do think you need to run them past a cross section of people to see how they get on with them.
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It would look good over two pages Plainleaf.
If you are going to produce comprehensive charts like this for most vegetables, I have to say that I would be tempted to purchase. I love charts and know that I would use them often even if I had to do a slight visual conversion with frost dates.
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If you will not tell us in rather more detail what you are using the charts for, it is rather difficult to say which one is best.
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aj
1.interval planting and succession planting are same thing:
the term means plant the same crop several times over a period of time to spread out the harvest.
example: if plant 4 blocks of same variety of corn. one block ever week
spreads the harvest over 4 weeks.
2.succession cropping: is plant two different crops one after the other is finished.
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aj
1.interval planting and succession planting are same thing:
the term means plant the same crop several times over a period of time to spread out the harvest.
example: if plant 4 blocks of same variety of corn. one block ever week
spreads the harvest over 4 weeks.
2.succession cropping: is plant two different crops one after the other is finished.
So what's interval cropping then?
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aj don't know since don't use that term
digeroo
1.chart one predicts harvest from set seed start date using dtm .
2.chart two uses seed start date change then calculates it for each dtm group
given same start date and dtm both charts give same results
ps i will be posting revised version of chat tonite.
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aj don't know since don't use that term
Yeah you did - look - I've put it in bold for you below...
the book title is following
" Tactical Vegetable Gardening: A guide to Succession Cropping,Interval Cropping &
Companion planting.
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Do you mean French fried potatoes?
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well i meant interval planting. but since coined to term accidentally
I guess get to define it Interval Cropping is when you plant more then 1 varieties of a crop the have different dtms thus spread you harvest over a greater range of time then you would have with one variety.
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May I ask why you have done the chart for tomatoes? It is not the sort of thing that lends it's self to succession/interval planting.
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Chrispy i would disagree with you on that. it is done like that quite easily with determinate varieties.
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I don't understand.
When I grow tomatoes, they continue to crop until the frost kills them (or for the outdoor ones on my allotment when the blight gets them).
On your chart, it gives a 10 day period for harvest, I just assumed this this was the start harvest window as I am just aiming for the longest harvest period.
I understand different variaties have different cropping times I am having that dilema at the moment, but whatever I grow I want the longest possible cropping period, so they will go out as early as possible, and they will come out as late as possible.
If you want a follow on crop, then this would mean removing healthey productive plants, is this what you do?
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chrispy yes that is start cropping
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What's the aim of this book in the first place? Who is the audience?
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aj title should make that it obvious
Tactical Vegetable Gardening: A Guide to Succession planting, Interval Planting &
Companion planting.
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i will posting revised version of each chart tomorrow based off suggestions.