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Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: plainleaf on January 22, 2012, 14:30:03

Title: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: plainleaf on January 22, 2012, 14:30:03
why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial  gardening techniques.
here is list of techniques i have seen listed where the idea behind technique is wrong,
hurts production, dangerous and  point less.
 
1. chitting potatoes,
2. suckering tomato plants.
3. pruning tomatillo
4. firm soil around broccoli,cauliflower, Brussels sprout plant.
5. paraffin coating of peas seeds.
6. traditional row planning
7. not using set paths in the garden

 
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: ceres on January 22, 2012, 15:14:45
Because for us non-obsessive types, our gardening is an expression of our personality with all its quirks and foibles.  For most of us, our starting point is the traditional method because that's what we are exposed to when we start.  If it does the trick for us, we stick with it, if not we look for other ways.  We get pleasure from conducting our own experiments and working out what best suits our particular combination of soil, aspect, climate and personal objectives.  We're mostly not professionals or scientists or driven to wring every last ha'penny out of our plots.

ETA - And most of us are generally receptive to new methods and techniques.  But such a lot depends on the skill and attitude of the teacher.  I'd have great difficulty accepting advice from someone who started off telling me how stupid and ignorant I am.  But that's just me - YMMV.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Ellen K on January 22, 2012, 15:33:59
.... or, alternatively:

Human civilisation is absolutely stuffed with practices that don't stand scrutiny.  Why would you expect gardening to be any different?
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Hi_Hoe on January 22, 2012, 15:38:16
Chitting potatoes is wrong?


Well, bugger me sideways....... ???
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: tomatoada on January 22, 2012, 15:41:08
Oh Dear.   40 years of getting it wrong.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Ellen K on January 22, 2012, 15:44:31
Chitting spuds: not wrong, it's just that doesn't make much difference.

I would defend row planting but only because it makes crop rotation a bit easier to manage on a standard oblong plot.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: shirlton on January 22, 2012, 15:45:32
Thank goodness that we are not all the same. How awful would it be if all allotments were the same. I don't like raised beds but I wouldn't expect everyone to grow in open ground like we do. What suits one doesn't suit another.The objectives are all the same . We grow stuff to eat
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: manicscousers on January 22, 2012, 15:46:28
Because gardening is fun and no two people do it the same way  ;D
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Chrispy on January 22, 2012, 16:48:49
chitting potatoes: Various trials have shown this is benificial for first earlies, but not for 2nds or mains.

suckering tomato plants: I assume you mean side shooting, I get more of a crop if I don't but I have to fight my way in to get it, comes down to personal choice.

firm soil around broccoli,cauliflower, Brussels sprout plant: I was ammused by the difference of opinion on this on this weeks GQT, the so called exsperts can not agree.

traditional row planning & not using set paths in the garden: This is rather down to personal choice, do what we like.

Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: sheddie on January 22, 2012, 17:00:00
For me, I believe chitting does help - its got to give them a head start by letting them stretch their legs surely!

I also just kind of like tradition...if it keeps me entertained, so no harm done eh?
 ;D
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: non-stick on January 22, 2012, 17:41:19
Because gardening is fun and no two people do it the same way  ;D

Absolutely - my allotment is my place to unwind from the rigours and stresses of life.

And I prefer straight (ish) rows and hate raised beds - but that's my (probably worthless) view!
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Digeroo on January 22, 2012, 17:50:17
I have found if  I do not chit the potatoes there are a number of storage issues.  One potato rots in the bag and the rest get infected, or they grow through the netting bags and are difficult to untangle.  Laying them out on a cool north facing window in egg box is for me the best solution.  I simply do not have the facilities to store them any other way.

We have 50 plots on site and no two are the same.  I am very idiocycratic in my methods.    Perhaps what I have learned is that there is no right way of doing things.  What works one year can be a disaster the next.  I grow on two lottie plots and my garden and each is totally different.   I use some old methods, some new ones, I have some failures and lots of success.  Some plot holders are successful and some not and I do not think that whether they sow in rows or not is a defining factors to their productivity and success.  

As for tomatoes they are more dependent on the weather,  some years I get loads and others a black slimey mess.

I grow on very light soils, no famer in his right mind grows brassicas apart from rape or turnip locally.  Yes I firm my brassicas in good and proper if not they simply blow over.

I use set paths - cuts down on the digging, and certainly do not put paraffin on my pea seeds.

Never grown Tomatillos.

I do not follow the rules, I potter round doing as I please.



Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: davejg on January 22, 2012, 18:18:12
Because they work, parraffin soak stops mice eating pea seeds, loose soil around sprouts & broccoli would cause blown sprouts heads because of windrock.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: aj on January 22, 2012, 18:38:43
I don't chit my potatoes. I lay them out with air round them and they do the chitting. All by themselves....it's what they do.  ::)
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Flighty on January 22, 2012, 19:13:50
Here in the UK we use them because they're not antiquated and are beneficial.
The techniques are not wrong, do not hurt production, are not dangerous and are not pointless.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: winecap on January 22, 2012, 19:20:28
For antiquated, I would read traditional, and traditional wisdom so often turns out to be sound in the end.
As others have said , if you don't chit your potatoes, what do you do with them until Easter? I'm not sure anybody would prune a tomatillo unless they were getting overrun by it. (I have tomatillo and anchovy pizza for dinner - one of my favourites.)
My pet hate is raised beds. I don't dislike the practise itself, but I do hate being told I'm doing it wrong because I don't do it. As far as I can see the main advantage of a raised bed system is that you only have to cultivate half an allotment. As somebody who lives off the allotment and hasn't bought any veg or fruit for years I would happily copy anybody who had a more productive allotment than mine. A case in point  - I recently gave a spare sack of potatoes I'd grown  to a friend who didn't get enough from her raised beds. Not everybody is the same, but for me its productivity and taste on an organic allotment.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on January 22, 2012, 19:22:06
I don't do any of the things you want to discourage, except not all my paths are set. On the other hand, I don't see any harm in any of them. Each to their own.

I don't know when they sell seed potatoes in the States, but over here, if you wait till planting time you won't find much left. So Winecap is right, there is a storage problem.

Raised beds are good if you have a bad back or suffer from waterlogging, as I do. Often they're done because it's fashionable, but if people want the extra work, why not?
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: aj on January 22, 2012, 19:41:56
For antiquated, I would read traditional, and traditional wisdom so often turns out to be sound in the end.
As others have said , if you don't chit your potatoes, what do you do with them until Easter? I'm not sure anybody would prune a tomatillo unless they were getting overrun by it. (I have tomatillo and anchovy pizza for dinner - one of my favourites.)
My pet hate is raised beds. I don't dislike the practise itself, but I do hate being told I'm doing it wrong because I don't do it. As far as I can see the main advantage of a raised bed system is that you only have to cultivate half an allotment. As somebody who lives off the allotment and hasn't bought any veg or fruit for years I would happily copy anybody who had a more productive allotment than mine. A case in point  - I recently gave a spare sack of potatoes I'd grown  to a friend who didn't get enough from her raised beds. Not everybody is the same, but for me its productivity and taste on an organic allotment.

I find I get more per bed than people who use rows....and as the new seedlings are growing, inbetween I can also bung other crops in that are going to be harvested before the space is needed...for example, I put my cabbages in before my overwintered onions are out, in a few spaces between the onions....by the time the onions are used the cabbages are just getting going and stay in til they are then used.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-G9EkDKVHVMU/TxxmlfySYbI/AAAAAAAAAqY/qR8bjZHe5nc/s1600/scan034.jpg)

Blog if the pic doesn't work....

http://linearlegume.blogspot.com/2012/01/using-beds-not-rows.html
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: winecap on January 22, 2012, 20:01:08
aj I find the illustration interesting and would like to make a few points for you to think about.
First of all, does planting in blocks require a raised bed?
If you use a raised bed, does your productivity relate only to the space within the bed, or to the bed space and path space devoted to it?
Also, can I plant my cabbages amongst my onions if I don't use a raised bed?
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: aj on January 22, 2012, 20:19:10
Why do I have to think about those points?  ??? I am perfectly happy but replies all the same....

Raised bed - just a bed that isn't walked on....doesn't have to be higher than the soil around, no. *I never mentioned raised beds, just beds

Interesting about the productivity - I grow claytonia and strawbs around the edges of my paths and in the summer, I use the paths to trail squashes down - I have 2 paths length ways and 2 widthways across the plot and each take the squash foliage off the actual beds....hence one squash = space about the size of a football as I plant them on the corners. So the paths are still productive without anything actually being grown on them [they have 2 layers of weed fabric and sawdust/straw on them - no soil showing].
I have no idea if you can plant your cabbages amongst your onions without a raised bed as I have never grown in rows - The cabbages are planted in the spaces inbetween [where the hoe would normally go to keep it weed free] and as I mulch, I just clear the mulch away, use the bulb planter to make a hole, pop the cabbage seedling rootball in, firm down, water and remulch. So probably not...as you would then be planting in your 'pathway'.

To say that 'growing in rows without paths' is 'growing without paths' is a myth - you do have the paths, [it's the distance between each row that inadvertently becomes a path] it's just each year you change them and re-dig them. And all year you weed them. Such a lot of extra work!

And I am still eating last year's spuds from my pathed lottie. Probably her method or original number of plants rather than just growing in beds that's the issue...
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: laurieuk on January 22, 2012, 21:15:05
I am not sure who decided what techniques are " Antiquated and non beneficial. I started gardening in 1948 and have never stopped learning and trying different ways. I do chit all my potatoes because I think it helps get them going when planted, there is no WORK involved so if it does not improve the crop nothing is lost. When I give a talk to a society "average 2 per week"  I always start by saying this is how I do it , it may not be how the book says but you can see my results , I also say this on my website and I have had several say how good it is to read such a comment. I do not think there is a right or wrong way we do it OUR WAY>
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Ninnyscrops. on January 22, 2012, 22:47:39
I am not sure who decided what techniques are " Antiquated and non beneficial. I started gardening in 1948 and have never stopped learning and trying different ways. I do chit all my potatoes because I think it helps get them going when planted, there is no WORK involved so if it does not improve the crop nothing is lost. When I give a talk to a society "average 2 per week"  I always start by saying this is how I do it , it may not be how the book says but you can see my results , I also say this on my website and I have had several say how good it is to read such a comment. I do not think there is a right or wrong way we do it OUR WAY>

Absolutely Laurie - thumbs up to your comments.

Ninnys
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: djbrenton on January 22, 2012, 23:26:48
And the main reason to sideshoot tomatoes isn't anything to do with productivity. It's because, in our unreliable summers, air circulation is important around the plants and letting greenhouse tomatoes become too bushy invites fungal disease.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Ninnyscrops. on January 22, 2012, 23:27:11
..........and Laurie,

Bikini vases, I remember about asking you about them when I first got into showing. I'd looked at the sites and they were all plastic.

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t87/ninnyscrops/20112-01-19001.jpg)

These were purchased from an 'old stager' who donated them to our local horty society and I'm so proud to be able to put new blooms in the old metal vases that have seen many a show and last the test of time.

Ninnys x
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: plainleaf on January 23, 2012, 05:27:39
djbrenton that's why they invented fungicide and it has been shown that pruning tomatoes are vectors for  other issues including diseases and insect issues.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Chrispy on January 23, 2012, 07:55:59
djbrenton that's why they invented fungicide
I think I have lost the will to live.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Alex133 on January 23, 2012, 07:59:27
I've got about half and half raised and flat beds which seems to work well. Certainly wouldn't go back to growing potatoes in a raised bed. Like looking at potatoes chitting and imagining the vast crops to come :)
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: goodlife on January 23, 2012, 08:00:00
Because for us non-obsessive types, our gardening is an expression of our personality with all its quirks and foibles.  For most of us, our starting point is the traditional method because that's what we are exposed to when we start.  If it does the trick for us, we stick with it, if not we look for other ways.  We get pleasure from conducting our own experiments and working out what best suits our particular combination of soil, aspect, climate and personal objectives.  We're mostly not professionals or scientists or driven to wring every last ha'penny out of our plots.

ETA - And most of us are generally receptive to new methods and techniques.  But such a lot depends on the skill and attitude of the teacher.  I'd have great difficulty accepting advice from someone who started off telling me how stupid and ignorant I am.  But that's just me - YMMV.
Phew..that saved me a lot of writing.. ;D Whe I saw the heading I already new who started the post.. ::)
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Ophi on January 23, 2012, 08:06:11
I expect different methods work well in different conditions.

On my clay soil I would not need to firm brassicas as the clay does it for me.

On the other hand I have only one path across the middle and I move it each year.  This is because I use wood or bark chips that give a nice layer of rotted stuff underneath that can be dug in when I move the top layer of chips.  If I leave a path it becomes set solid and water logged over the winter and can not be used to take a short cut.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: goodlife on January 23, 2012, 08:10:55
Code: [Select]
djbrenton that's why they invented fungicide and it has been shown that pruning tomatoes are vectors for  other issues including diseases and insect issues.
I don't know what's going on over your side of the pond..but here lot of people do try to avoid using chemicals when growing their own food.
If I want tomatoes with fungicides, I go and buy them from shop..
the whole point for growing your own for many of us is that we can get 'clean' food...and before you start your next 'argument' I amend that last statement.  The whole point for growing your own food for me and many other people is, that we can get as 'clean' food as possible... ;)
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Digeroo on January 23, 2012, 08:22:44
Plainleaf Chill out man.  

Part of growing my own is knowing it is not covered in chemicals.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: djbrenton on January 23, 2012, 08:32:10
I've been growing tomatoes without fungicides, pesticides or chemicals for years and the worst I've had is some late season blight in maybe one year in 5 and no pest issues. I'll stick with what works for me and accept the odd blip in order to grow 'clean' tomatoes.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: gazza1960 on January 23, 2012, 08:41:56
We are only going into our second proper season and I guess our naivety puts us in a position of enjoying our
growing vegetables to the fullest,and yes, we have made some mistakes and will continue to make errors as we learn about the knowledge that takes a life time of growing to get right.
I offer no condemnation of the "posts title" as without debate our learning will be stunted,but everybodys reposts have been interesting as it shows there are firm beliefs in what you do, as well as the convictions of the poster
standing by their suggestions.

Im enjoying this post as it highlights to Jude and myself how centuries of growing by seasoned "lottys" can still be
discussed on how and what to each person is right.

we,ll just enjoy the experience and look back with fondness "hopefully" on all the pointers you guys and gals have given us at the end of the season......including this very debate.

Thanks

GazNjude
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Deb P on January 23, 2012, 10:08:44
I sometimes think that growing plants and caring for babies are not too dissimilar sometimes....you receive a lot of well meaning advice from more experienced growers/parents which you may or may not dutifully take notice of, and in the end you keep doing the things that you find work for you, and discard the rest!

What makes gardening so challenging (and fun of course) is that the seasons bring us different challenges every year, so sometimes even what we have decided is a 'tried and tested' technique fails us!

Also please don't worry about posts like these, us 'old hands' are well used to Plainleaf's 'light the blue touch paper and retire' technique!
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: antipodes on January 23, 2012, 10:18:50
I do not think there is a right or wrong way we do it OUR WAY>
Laurie (and goodlife), quite agree.
Fungicide - yuck yuck yuck, if I want chemicals I will buy from the supermarket!
Are we really in this for "production"? Some yes, sure, but I am sure most of us are really just gardening for fun, like watching their flowers grow, wail a bit when things rot or don't germinate or get scoffed, and like getting our hands dirty and watching the ladybirds on the roses or the worms in the compost. I am dead chuffed if I get a lovely lettuce or a box full of tomatoes, but if I don't I won't slash my wrists because it's all been good sport.
And yes like others, I knew on reading the title that this would be ten minutes of my life that I would never get back, but just can't resist a fight!  ;D
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: ceres on January 23, 2012, 10:42:01
Please stick to discussing the topic.  Posts containing insults or inflammatory comments will be edited or removed.  It's been an interesting thread so far, let's keep it that way.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: claybasket on January 23, 2012, 11:10:08
Plainleaf you sound very serious about your growing techniques and using chemicals,have you got a farm?I just grow things without aids ,natural I get failers ,and success's ,I  :-don't worry about the do and don'ts or the rights and wrongs ,life is to short .
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Melbourne12 on January 23, 2012, 11:18:49
Plainleaf you sound very serious about your growing techniques and using chemicals,have you got a farm?I just grow things without aids ,natural I get failers ,and success's ,I  :-don't worry about the do and don'ts or the rights and wrongs ,life is to short .

I think that whilst it's always interesting to read about the latest commercial techniques, they don't always "downsize" successfully to allotments and back gardens.  Sometimes that's because of the costs of the equipment or treatments, and that can go either way.

On the one hand I can't afford professional spraying equipment, but on the other I don't cost my time.  So "old fashioned" labour intensive techniques may well be the better choice for most of us.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on January 23, 2012, 15:23:12
Growing in blocks doesn't require raised beds at all. They have three advantages; they define the paths between them - but there are easier ways of doing that - they help deal with waterlogging, which is one of my problems, and they minimise bending if you have a bad back. All too often, I think people put them in because it's fashionable.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: cornykev on January 23, 2012, 16:03:54
Everyone to their own
Spuds sit in the egg boxes waiting for the soil to warm, so they are naturally chitting whether you like it or not
As said, side shoots for me, are taken off to get better air circulation and to control the number of branches on the plant
Firming the ground is not done by everyone but it gets very windy on my plot, so the gets planted deep and the soil firmly patted with a spade
My paths get moved around in rotation, as they are stepping stones or scaffold planks, why on earth would this be right or wrong
I don't parafinate peas but some people get results, so that's their way
Explain whats wrong with straight rows of veg, I put a line down and follow it, it's easier and tidier
Back to the Tommie's, I don't put chemicals on them or anything else, a good Tommie grower wouldn't need chemicals would they.  ;)
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: plainleaf on January 23, 2012, 16:41:46
there are many   pesticides, fungicides,and herbicides are natural and organic.

back to the subject there is the cucumber straightener.
though Japanese seem to have changes basic shape and size to make square watermelons  
the  tomato cage which was invented before
1865 which works better then poles, strings and many other supports.
 
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: galina on January 23, 2012, 17:53:20
Who, apart from you PL, says these methods are antiquated and non-beneficial???
And how do you prove such a statement, when you don't garden, and never have gardened, in the UK?


Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Kea on January 23, 2012, 18:09:58
Just put my earlies to chit...why? Because I don't have anywhere cool to store them, if I don't buy them now there will be none left; and left in the coolest place i have, my garage, I'll just get lots of etiolated stolons which I'll damage when I plant them.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Digeroo on January 23, 2012, 18:13:55
I know another reason.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.

I have not found an organic fungicide that deals with tomato blight.  

Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: growmore on January 25, 2012, 09:38:57
Here's why I chit/sprout  my potatoes..
I chit my maincrop potatoes so that I can rub off all but 4 chits/shoots on the crown end of the potato ( blunt end that is fattest) .I then sow my potato this way up .
There's a couple of reasons for this .
As we like bakers I find I get far bigger potatoes which can be cut for boiling if required.
Secondly, The plants tend to grow straight up from these shoots making it easier to walk between them to earth up.
I still rub some chit's /sprouts off my earlies but not as many . I don't want to grow marble sized potatoes.
So how is chitting  potatoes non beneficial to me.

cheers, Jim
 
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: ru2010 on January 28, 2012, 17:29:06
Why should I not firm the soil round my brassicas? I've always been told that I should and, by doing so, it ensures solid hearts on my cabbages and prevents my sprouts from "blowing".

So, Plainleaf, I'm new to gardening - what's the theory behind not firming the soil and how does it relate to my reasons for doing so?

Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: saddad on January 28, 2012, 17:43:38
Hope you don't mind me butting in...
on my heavy clay soil if I firm in too much the roots can't get out of the planting hole... it settles down firm on it's own before the Winter...  :-\
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: plainleaf on January 28, 2012, 20:09:14
Hope you don't mind me butting in..
on my heavy clay soil if I firm in too much the roots can't get out of the planting hole... it settles down firm on it's own before the Winter...  :-\
no problem with you answering saddad an you answer is spot on.
there other issue with firming soil also but you answer is the big one.
 
Why should I not firm the soil round my brassicas? I've always been told that I should and, by doing so, it ensures solid hearts on my cabbages and prevents my sprouts from "blowing".

So, Plainleaf, I'm new to gardening - what's the theory behind not firming the soil and how does it relate to my reasons for doing so?
the problem is the theory is wrong.

it is just like cut off end ham story like gram did.  but reason was not that it cooked better with end cut off but gram had small roaster that a ham would not fit with end  still on. 
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: davyw1 on January 28, 2012, 20:32:06
Firming the soil or not firming come down to nothing more than knowing what the condition of your soil is.

The reason for firming down is to stop the wind from rocking the the plant. With cabbages it is not to bad their root system can take it. Sprouts grow tall and can be blown over if not staked up and or firmed into soil. (i plant mine into a 6" trench and back fill and firm the soil down as it grows) Cauliflowers have a tender root system and can not tolerate the movement of their roots and will consequently die. I have to plant them so the growing tip is just above ground (maximum root depth) and firm the soil with my foot, i do this and i get good results.

If Saddad was to it with his soil then he would probably get a poor root system consequently a bad result.

We all learn by our mistakes and taking bad advice so listen to people who have learned how to grow good veg in the type of soil that you have.

Different techniques for different types of soil

Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: plainleaf on January 28, 2012, 22:12:48
davey to back those statements are old wives tales for most part.  if wind problem to just put in wind break or wind baffle.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: ru2010 on January 28, 2012, 23:22:07
So, really, you need loose soil for brassicas, like all plants, for the establishment of a good root system but it is common practice to firm the soil at the base of the plant (above the root system) to merely prevent the plant from being moved around by the wind.

Is this right?

So, if I can protect the plants from the wind, without firming the soil, all will be well with the world?

The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying a four year rotation which consists of double digging and heavily mucking, in year one, for potatoes; year 2, legumes; year 3, brassicas; year 4, roots.

I'm hoping to keep mucking and serious digging to once every four years and to get by with plenty of comfrey and some blood, fish and bone, in the intervening three. What concerned me, though, was firming and compacting the soil for the brassicas only to follow them with roots - which surely won't appreciate that treatment of the soil! I don't want to have to dig for the roots and then double dig, straight after, for the potatoes again.

So, If I can manage to not firm for the brassicas I will be in a better position for the roots.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Digeroo on January 28, 2012, 23:41:24
I am interested Plainleaf in what type of soil you have.  

My soil is so light and well drained that without good firming in of brassica they would simply jump out of the soil as soon as North West Wind gets going.  Perhaps you do not get the joys of the north west wind either.  I have done well this year only four PSB have blown over.  I have put several compost bins, water butts and left the sweet corn stalks to protect them.

Some 80% of sprouts on site had very loose buttons.   I have very idiocyncratic soil.  We are on a reclaimed gravel working so not two lorries of back fill came from the same place.  It is reputed to be from the building of the London Bristol motorway (freeway to you).

In my garden about a mile away I have never grown a good brassica over the whole of 26 years.  Yet my previous garden about 1/2 mile away where I had good potting clay they grew like weeds.  While on my lottie I have some lovely brassicas.

Far from using non beneficial techniques I have had to work by trial and error and adapt to my growing conditions.  





Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: plainleaf on January 29, 2012, 01:25:52
Digeroo my soil is in raised beds and is a mix of compost, manure and other loose fine materials.  we had  winds  several storms ranging 48 kph  - 88 kph.


ru2010 you will want cover your  brassicas anyway to protect them from cabbage white butterflies, if you cover them correctly you kill two issues with one solution.

Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Digeroo on January 29, 2012, 09:36:48
We oddly still use mph for wind speed.   Those people who live in Scotland may not be very impressed by wind speeds of 88 kph.

Manure?   I am glad you are not suffering nasties from Dow Corp.  After three years I am finally hoping to be free from the results.

I am very interested in what variety of sprouts will cope with your light soil.  I favour Amaroso but it is now unavailable in the UK. 






Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on January 29, 2012, 14:31:48
It's a question of what suits your conditions. I wouldn't damage my soil by stampingit down, but there are so many hedges and trees around my plot that wind rock is the least of my worries. I remember from watching 'The Victorian Kitchen Garden' that seed beds needed to be trodden down hard. I don't think many of us do that these days, but we do maintain other traditions from the same era, which may make no more sense. Unless you have a soil like Saddad's, there's no harm in firming them in, and it may help them stand upright. Mine flop all over the place, but I think they grow just as well if they're horizontal.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: djbrenton on January 30, 2012, 18:20:35
I think there's another factor too. The older you get, the more contradictory 'proofs' you see. If we followed every proof we'd be reversing course all the time. Is a glass of red wine a day good or bad for you? It seems to depend on the study. Let's face it, doing something that may not be strictly necessary is better than not doing something that is. I seriously doubt the OP gets better results on his ground with his methods than many here do with theirs.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: plainleaf on January 30, 2012, 20:55:52
well the red wine was never good for you but the guy who did study falsified the data to make it seem that way so nothing was different but perceptions was different. it is call belief reinforcement.  well as brassica results variety is part of my results difference.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: green lily on January 30, 2012, 21:47:02
I stake my tall brassicas -- and canes aren't good enough [how do I know?] . So yes I firm/tramp with my size 6 wellies [uk size] and whack in hefty stakes and tie the psb and sprouts up with old tights......Then I nurse my sore wrists and look smug while the gales roar..... ;D ;D
PS. I also mesh the broccoli against out feathered friends.... ::)
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Ninnyscrops. on January 30, 2012, 23:21:45
I don't stake my sprouts but sink them deep as youngsters, just a welly tread (size 7) around them, possibly a 4 inch compaction on my clay, netted at about 4 feet and leave them to it. Cut them down in early January for the freezer after the Crimble picking  ;). When I went back to clear the roots they had travelled about a foot outside my welly stomp.

Ninnys
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: Jeannine on February 04, 2012, 06:21:22
Regarding pruning tomatoes, in the UK it is fairly standard to prune an indeterminate and to not prune a determinate in the USA the opposite is true.

Many UK gardeners grew in greenhouses and grew in pots, Many USA gardeners plant in the ground and if pots are used they are often very  much bigger,15 gallon is quite common, some even grow their tomatoes without staking or cages and let them run along the ground like we used to do with cukes.

The variations in US weather gives many more options to tomato growers over there, here in BC we are pretty much in the same boat as the UK.

I didn't prune last year and my harvest was down on varieties I had grown for years and in three countries.

This year I will prune, without doing so I would not have room for all I want to grow, different strokes for different folks, or rather if it works for you then go for it..if you don't need to then don't. I think we have to  be open to all ideas and I think the UK has pretty much got it worked out right..for the UK as we also have here in BC..

XX Jeannine
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: pumkinlover on February 04, 2012, 06:49:41
I tried not to prune/ pinch out a couple of years ago.  I had a huge bumper crop  but would never have ripened. When I could not get into the greenhouse anyway I got the secateurs out.
Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: galina on February 04, 2012, 10:52:51
Pumpkinlover,  there are real weather differences between mainland USA and UK.  Our higher latitude degrees cause two main differences, sun angle and sun intensity.  It is so much sunnier further south, this means that foliage grows smaller, plants are shorter because they are not stretching towards light as much as in the UK.  In the USA the problem is 'sunscald' as they call it, ie tomatoes being burnt at the shoulders by too much sun.  In the UK the universal problem is too little sun to ripen all of the tomatoes and far too much shading by leaves.  Far from being 'nonbeneficial', for us side-shooting and pruning are really helpful, essential even. 

Most of USA has continental climate and that means far less cloud cover than in the UK.  Guess what all this cloud does to sunlight getting to tomatoes?  And the answer is still the same - limiting foliage.  Not growing in 'tomato cages' which push foliage together, but side-shooting and pruning and limiting to a few trusses only.

As Jeannine says (who does have experience growing in more than one country) - we do know a thing or two about gardening in the UK and we definitely know how to grow tomatoes in our climate.  In fact, because we are near the geographic margins of tomato growing, we had to get quite clever to achieve good yields.  We can never hope to get the yields achievable in the med or in many states of the USA, but we are doing it, year after year, our way. 

Some people here may have read about the woes of USA tomato growers in 2010 when late blight caused wide-spread crop wipe-out in many states of the USA, due to unusual weather conditions.  Growing in tomato cages, which limits air circulation contributed to the speed and devastation this wave of blight caused.  Every method has its pros and cons.  In this instance it was positively nonbeneficial to US gardeners. 

There is no 'one-size-fits-all' method in gardening.  It is just not that simple.

Title: Re: why do people still use antiquated and nonbeneficial gardening techniques
Post by: realfood on February 04, 2012, 14:32:03
Digeroo, Amarosa is available from Dobies of Devon, but very expensive.
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