Allotments 4 All
General => The Shed => Topic started by: Mr Smith on January 09, 2012, 18:46:07
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if Scotland eventually go for Independence in 2014 I'm emigrating I've already got a sponsor, my mate he's been up there for years, :)
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Well if we ever get the referendum, I'll be saying yes to independence. Not that I have anything against England, Ireland and Wales but our needs, wants and aspirations in Scotland seem to be fundamentally different from the UK as a whole. We vote but have no voice.
I suspect that most of England down to the Watford Gap - or thereabouts - would happily come with us!
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I love Scotland and you really do have a lot of advantages we do not have.
I am an English woman though so sadly will only be coming for holidays :)
My Westie just said she is off to pack her bag ;D
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Hey Den - 2 of my grandparents were English!!! Mmmm ... Lancashire and Yorkshire though, so does that count? ;)
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Have no idea.......being a Brummie girl :)
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I went there once, It was closed
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We could have gone to Edinburgh when Jim was made redundant from Standard Life.They offered him relocation.
It was tempting but East West homes best,too many things to leave behind.
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It's a good job they weren't independent 3 years ago when English tax payers bailed out the Scottish banks, bringing the UK to it's knees. I say this as a Scottish refugee who hopes to return before too long & vote "No".
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As a independant on this Have you thought it out if it was not for England supporting Scotland, Wales, and Northen Ireland we would have sunk years ago. My Father bless him indpendance for Wales there was no work in wales no oil rights plenty of cockles and mussels but no brains. Services for years have been help by grants from london when this stops after the vote were does the buck stop :(
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I am proud to being a 'Scottish Borderer' (there is a difference). No way, no way will either of us vote for independence. The very sight of that smug, little ************* Alex Salmond and his entourage makes our blood run cold. I think we would relocate the 10 miles to over the border into Northumberland. Scotland cannot stand on its own feet, we are a United Kingdom and that is how it should stay.
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Let them go and be Scottish and independent, but without all their UK subsidies paid for by English taxes and relinquishing all MPs in Westminster and Scottish lords too and let them also buy back their banks saved by English tax payers.
I have English, Irish and Scottish ancestors and a bit of Danish too and have no qualms about letting Scotland go and stand on its own financial feet. Beautiful country and some nice people but politically and socially it's messy and expensive.
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Must visit before I need a passport.....
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I think it is very noble of the Prime Minister to grant Scotland a Referendum on leaving the Union. Please Mr Cameron can the English have one for leaving the EU, :)
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Well if we ever get the referendum, I'll be saying yes to independence. Not that I have anything against England, Ireland and Wales but our needs, wants and aspirations in Scotland seem to be fundamentally different from the UK as a whole. We vote but have no voice.
I suspect that most of England down to the Watford Gap - or thereabouts - would happily come with us!
Why Do you think you will be voting for independance?
Do you not realise the sumptuous and luxurious public services, and many other things like no Uni fees, are all subsidised by the englsih - the NHS in SCotland is subsidised to the tune of £400 per patient. And dont go counting on North Sea Oil, thats dead and buried, the peak went past years ago, and the world is slowly weaning itself off whats left (which in the North Sea is practically nothing).
So what will happen is you go independant, almost immediately you will have to go grovelling hand in cap to the EU. The EU, will ofc, throw money at you,, and the price you pay will be a slow creeping takeover of your country. In short you'll be swapping the english for the germans. You will be forced to join the single currency for a start, and even you have to admit, had we been in the single currency, we woudl have been deep deep in the poo, because we couldnt have altered our interest rates and performed QE. As the creep of EU Superstate proceeds, your taxation will be taken over by Brussels, along with the economic control of your country. In 25 years, your parliment will have almost no control of your economy or country. And once the EU control your economy, like in Greece, they will stop the money and squeeze you tight, the money will dry up. Slavery awaits you.
If you vote for independance, you are voting for slavery to the EU Superstate. And believe me, they are circling now, just waiting to gobble you up and own you.
But do carry on. We will be so pleased to get rid of the interfering scottish MP's who obedienbtly did as labour told them, keeping labour in power long after they spent all the money and outstayed thre lying welcome, and continue to intefere in the affair of the english in our parliment. Without these meddling scots in our parliment, the Tories will have an outright majority, and clegg and his cronies would be irrelevant.
The hypcrisy of Alex Salmond to complain about us intefering in the scottish referendum vote when his MP's have repeatedly imposed stuff on us we didnt want by voting like good little Nu Labour lapdogs our parliment is truly breathtaking. Good riddance we say.
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Stop beating around the bush Lincsyokel. Tell it to them straight!!
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Do you not realise the sumptuous and luxurious public services, and many other things like no Uni fees, are all subsidised by the englsih
Looking at a map of the United Kingdom, I feel bound to disagree somewhat with this statement of 'fact'. It seems to me we all pay tax.
And dont go counting on North Sea Oil, thats dead and buried, the peak went past years ago, and the world is slowly weaning itself off whats left (which in the North Sea is practically nothing).
Up in Shetland, they are preparing the second phase of their oil terminal. The French oil and gas company, Total, is to invest £500m in a new gas plant at Sullom Voe which is expected to open for business in 2014. It's not finished by a long chalk.
Still. Sorry to interrupt your rant with facts.... carry on. ;)
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Cut Lincolnshire off, along with the independant state of Hull, and let them get on withit. That gets my vote ;D
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Do you not realise the sumptuous and luxurious public services, and many other things like no Uni fees, are all subsidised by the englsih
Looking at a map of the United Kingdom, I feel bound to disagree somewhat with this statement of 'fact'. It seems to me we all pay tax.
The Uk subsidies scoitland to the tune of £1012 per head. They get approx £22 billion a year.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/simonheffer/6123095/England-pays-through-the-nose-for-the-luxury-of-Scottish-values.html
Scottish Executive figures for 2009-10 show that spending per capita in Scotland was £11,370, versus £10,320 for the UK. In other words, spending in Scotland was £1,030 - or 10% higher - per head of population than the UK average
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990
Even if Scotland keppt all its oil revenue, woudl woudl still have to give them £6 billion a year to keep them i nthe luxury the english cant afford
http://james.lab6.com/2006/12/20/does-scotland-pay-its-own-way/
So, sorry, mate, its a fact. We pay for the scots free prescriptions, free universitiues, better NHS and better roads. Scottish independance will mean penuary and poverty for your country. Good luck.
And dont go counting on North Sea Oil, thats dead and buried, the peak went past years ago, and the world is slowly weaning itself off whats left (which in the North Sea is practically nothing).
Up in Shetland, they are preparing the second phase of their oil terminal. The French oil and gas company, Total, is to invest £500m in a new gas plant at Sullom Voe which is expected to open for business in 2014. It's not finished by a long chalk.
Still. Sorry to interrupt your rant with facts.... carry on. ;)
North Sea oil is running out, there winding down Forte and Piper. You have 17 years tops of diminshing returns.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1584925/North-Sea-oil-is-running-out.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/may/04/oil.energy
http://www.utility-exchange.co.uk/north-sea-oil-gas-may-run-out-in-just-17-years-15002/
Sorry to interrupt your wet dream with facts..............you need to stop listining to the bollox Alex Salmond is filling your head with and do your own research. You'll soons see he's spouting a pile of crap to con you into voting him abetter job. He's the Scottish Tony Blair, and look what ours turned out like, a liar and ac rook.
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I suppose the question is, can a small, barren, mountainous, northern European country which is cold and dark half the year, with only a five million population and left leaning tendencies ever be economically viable? Let's click and see, shall we ...
http://www.aneki.com/income_countries.html
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Do you not realise the sumptuous and luxurious public services, and many other things like no Uni fees, are all subsidised by the englsih
Looking at a map of the United Kingdom, I feel bound to disagree somewhat with this statement of 'fact'. It seems to me we all pay tax.
The Uk subsidies scoitland to the tune of £1012 per head. They get approx £22 billion a year.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/simonheffer/6123095/England-pays-through-the-nose-for-the-luxury-of-Scottish-values.html
Scottish Executive figures for 2009-10 show that spending per capita in Scotland was £11,370, versus £10,320 for the UK. In other words, spending in Scotland was £1,030 - or 10% higher - per head of population than the UK average
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990
Even if Scotland keppt all its oil revenue, woudl woudl still have to give them £6 billion a year to keep them i nthe luxury the english cant afford
http://james.lab6.com/2006/12/20/does-scotland-pay-its-own-way/
So, sorry, mate, its a fact. We pay for the scots free prescriptions, free universitiues, better NHS and better roads. Scottish independance will mean penuary and poverty for your country. Good luck.
I love the way you don't 'get it' when anyone makes a point you don't agree with.;)
Look. We ALL pay tax. How YOUR government decides to allocate that money is a problem YOU have with YOUR government. Never mind your op-ed pieces that back up your ultra-nationalist views. Why are you on Scotland's case about that?
Oh, and it's not my Country mate. I live in Wales, where we enjoy even more of your tax money with free prescriptions. :)
And dont go counting on North Sea Oil, thats dead and buried, the peak went past years ago, and the world is slowly weaning itself off whats left (which in the North Sea is practically nothing).
Up in Shetland, they are preparing the second phase of their oil terminal. The French oil and gas company, Total, is to invest £500m in a new gas plant at Sullom Voe which is expected to open for business in 2014. It's not finished by a long chalk.
Still. Sorry to interrupt your rant with facts.... carry on. ;)
North Sea oil is running out, there winding down Forte and Piper. You have 17 years tops of diminshing returns.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1584925/North-Sea-oil-is-running-out.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/may/04/oil.energy
http://www.utility-exchange.co.uk/north-sea-oil-gas-may-run-out-in-just-17-years-15002/
Sorry to interrupt your wet dream with facts..............you need to stop listining to the bollox Alex Salmond is filling your head with and do your own research. You'll soons see he's spouting a pile of crap to con you into voting him abetter job. He's the Scottish Tony Blair, and look what ours turned out like, a liar and ac rook.
My wet dreams? :D Pull the other one Yokel, it's got bells on.
The Oil still has a lot of years left as even you admit, and as for the Gas......................? A £500Million investment doesn't sound like they are paying for the last dregs does it?
Meanwhile, I couldn't care less about Salmond. He has not filled my head with anything old chap.
Now you have a nice day, y'hear?.... :)
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Must visit before I need a passport.....
...We could have gone to Edinburgh when Jim was made redundant from Standard Life and lots more
Well, years ago, before we had the children, we considered moving to Scotland - I think it had something to do with uni fees at the time.
The subject came up again this morning because, as someone else pointed out, vast swathes of England north of Watford could not tolerate the removal of large numbers of MPs of their political persuasion from parliament. It's just got to be said. The prospect fills me with horror.
Incidentally, I don't remember who mentioned it but most prescription in the UK are provided free of charge.
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One benefit is that we won't have to mess about with the clocks for the benefit of scottish farmers.
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You know I've never understood how it helps? In the depth of winter, in Scotland, there's maybe six hours of daylight. I don't see what difference it makes having sunrise at 8.45 or 9.45 and sunset at 2.45 or 3.45. And in summer the sun starts rising about 4am and doesn't set till 11pm -ish. So why do we need to change the clocks?
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I don't understand it either Grawc.
I remember talk of this from long ago when it was said the main reason was so that school-kids in Scotland could go to and return from school in the light and therefore at less risk.
Other than that, farmers tend to work according to the hours of available daylight, not the clock.
Are there other reasons, or is it just politics?
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Do you not realise the sumptuous and luxurious public services, and many other things like no Uni fees, are all subsidised by the englsih
Looking at a map of the United Kingdom, I feel bound to disagree somewhat with this statement of 'fact'. It seems to me we all pay tax.
The Uk subsidies scoitland to the tune of £1012 per head. They get approx £22 billion a year.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/simonheffer/6123095/England-pays-through-the-nose-for-the-luxury-of-Scottish-values.html
Scottish Executive figures for 2009-10 show that spending per capita in Scotland was £11,370, versus £10,320 for the UK. In other words, spending in Scotland was £1,030 - or 10% higher - per head of population than the UK average
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990
Even if Scotland keppt all its oil revenue, woudl woudl still have to give them £6 billion a year to keep them i nthe luxury the english cant afford
http://james.lab6.com/2006/12/20/does-scotland-pay-its-own-way/
So, sorry, mate, its a fact. We pay for the scots free prescriptions, free universitiues, better NHS and better roads. Scottish independance will mean penuary and poverty for your country. Good luck.
I love the way you don't 'get it' when anyone makes a point you don't agree with.;)
Look. We ALL pay tax. How YOUR government decides to allocate that money is a problem YOU have with YOUR government. Never mind your op-ed pieces that back up your ultra-nationalist views. Why are you on Scotland's case about that?
Oh, and it's not my Country mate. I live in Wales, where we enjoy even more of your tax money with free prescriptions. :)
And dont go counting on North Sea Oil, thats dead and buried, the peak went past years ago, and the world is slowly weaning itself off whats left (which in the North Sea is practically nothing).
Up in Shetland, they are preparing the second phase of their oil terminal. The French oil and gas company, Total, is to invest £500m in a new gas plant at Sullom Voe which is expected to open for business in 2014. It's not finished by a long chalk.
Still. Sorry to interrupt your rant with facts.... carry on. ;)
North Sea oil is running out, there winding down Forte and Piper. You have 17 years tops of diminshing returns.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1584925/North-Sea-oil-is-running-out.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/may/04/oil.energy
http://www.utility-exchange.co.uk/north-sea-oil-gas-may-run-out-in-just-17-years-15002/
Sorry to interrupt your wet dream with facts..............you need to stop listining to the bollox Alex Salmond is filling your head with and do your own research. You'll soons see he's spouting a pile of crap to con you into voting him abetter job. He's the Scottish Tony Blair, and look what ours turned out like, a liar and ac rook.
My wet dreams? :D Pull the other one Yokel, it's got bells on.
The Oil still has a lot of years left as even you admit, and as for the Gas......................? A £500Million investment doesn't sound like they are paying for the last dregs does it?
Meanwhile, I couldn't care less about Salmond. He has not filled my head with anything old chap.
Now you have a nice day, y'hear?.... :)
See the difference is i provide links to back upo my point of view, you provide........................nothing. Theres no one anywhere agrees with you, wheras theres plenty of educated, intelligent people in the know, from the ONS, the Telegraph and The Economist who agree with me.
If you are going to debate on the internet, you need to start providing supporting evidence, otherwise your arguments have no merit or substance. Lets see your evidence, or we can assume ther isnt any, and you POV is a pile of guesswork and hot air. if yo uare going to cal me wrong, yo uare also calling the BBCc, the Telegraph, the Economist, several government think tanks and many other very smart people wrong, includinmg academics and industrialists, and you need some seriously good counter evidence to do that, not just your own personal bluster and waffle.
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Watching Salmond on Channel4 news I just don't like the way he is presenting all this, remember Scotland is a split bigotted country West coast and then the rest of them, just watch the local football Derby's they don't even like each other, just hope that it does not turn nasty when Dave tells Alex what he is going to do,
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Watching Salmond on Channel4 news I just don't like the way he is presenting all this, remember Scotland is a split bigotted country West coast and then the rest of them, just watch the local football Derby's they don't even like each other, just hope that it does not turn nasty when Dave tells Alex what he is going to do,
He';s manipulating the scots to set himself up as lord and master of scotland. This guy is doing what he is doing primarily for personal enrichment, and it's no better than the way Blair and Mandelson exploited there position, and used public money, to set themselves up for life. You have no idea how much i hate corrupt, lying, manipulative self serving politicians like him (and Mandelson, and Blair, and while we are on the subject, Merkel).
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You have no idea how much i hate corrupt, lying, manipulative self serving politicians like him (and Mandelson, and Blair, and while we are on the subject, Merkel).
I think perhaps we do ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D
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Alex Salmond is an obnoxious little twirp. I cannot look at him without a shudder and my OH turns purple in the face whenever Salmond opens his big mouth. If he was to disappear the rest of the SNP brigade would be nothing.
I do hope that the rest of the Population of Scotland see him for what he is.
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I suspect that because the Tories bought the result of the AV referendum & were allowed to lie in their campaign (as long as it wasn't about a person), they think they will be able to buy the result of this. Sadly, the more Scots see David Cameron saying it's a bad idea, the more we'll think it's a good one! Interestingly, the SNP are in bed with Murdoch so his empire might feel conflicted.
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Seems there might be a business opportunity for selling Blue Face Paint north of the border and a remake of a certain film portraying a Scottish folk hero .... I wonder if Mel is busy these days!
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Watching Salmond on Channel4 news I just don't like the way he is presenting all this, remember Scotland is a split bigotted country West coast and then the rest of them, just watch the local football Derby's they don't even like each other, just hope that it does not turn nasty when Dave tells Alex what he is going to do,
He';s manipulating the scots to set himself up as lord and master of scotland. This guy is doing what he is doing primarily for personal enrichment, and it's no better than the way Blair and Mandelson exploited there position, and used public money, to set themselves up for life. You have no idea how much i hate corrupt, lying, manipulative self serving politicians like him (and Mandelson, and Blair, and while we are on the subject, Merkel).
Quoting Mr O' Reilly from 'Fawlty towers', 'I tink I do', :)
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And something else for the scots to think about:
UK national debt is forecast to hit around £1.4trillion by 2014, when Mr Salmond says he wants to hold an independence referendum. At around 10 per cent of the UK total, Scotland’s allocation of public spending is higher than its share of population.
If its share of the national debt is allocated on this basis, it will be saddled with debts of around £140billion. Also, an independent Scotland should also be made to take back the £187billion in toxic assets of the Royal Bank of Scotland, currently held by the Treasury.
So vote for independance, it'll cost you £327 billion. That'll turn you in another Greece from day one. And lets not forget, as a new independant country, it'll have to reapply to join the EU, and will be forced to adopt the Euro. Talk about well stuffed. Crippled with debt and its economy run by the Bundesbank from the start, good luck with that.
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They weren't sure about independence until our MPs suggested everyone should have two alcohol-free days a week
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;D ;D ;D- at Ace!
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Oh well another peaceful start to my day. ;D
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I don't see why this discussion has to get so unpleasant and offensive.
The facts are that the average English income, and thus tax contribution, is higher per person that it is in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. None of the three smaller countries earns enough to pay for its infrastructure of education, health serviecs, social services, tarnsport or anything else without being subsidised by the English tax payer. It would be more equitable to have an equal per capita budget spent in every region.
It is also ludicrous to think that Brussels is a bogey man that will take over everything. The Eurocrats who run the EU come from all the member states in proportion to their population so there are vast numbers of British civil servants assigned to the EU and diplomats a plenty too. They all get a say in the day to day running of the EU and future policy making and believe me, there are already plenty of Scots amongst them. It's just that some countries are politically more astute and more wiley.
The main problem is that the English/British civil servants in Europe haven't the wit to take the opportunities offered for influencing decisions their way and for taking advantage of what is on offer because they still think of Europe as them and us and not a union of European countries. If they had, we might have had better measures in place for ensuring the Greeks and Irish and Italians and the rest were actuially meeting the economic rules for Euro zone membership and maintaining economic discipline once in.
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I don't see why this discussion has to get so unpleasant and offensive.
The facts are that the average English income, and thus tax contribution, is higher per person that it is in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. None of the three smaller countries earns enough to pay for its infrastructure of education, health serviecs, social services, tarnsport or anything else without being subsidised by the English tax payer. It would be more equitable to have an equal per capita budget spent in every region.
It is also ludicrous to think that Brussels is a bogey man that will take over everything. The Eurocrats who run the EU come from all the member states in proportion to their population so there are vast numbers of British civil servants assigned to the EU and diplomats a plenty too. They all get a say in the day to day running of the EU and future policy making and believe me, there are already plenty of Scots amongst them. It's just that some countries are politically more astute and more wiley.
The main problem is that the English/British civil servants in Europe haven't the wit to take the opportunities offered for influencing decisions their way and for taking advantage of what is on offer because they still think of Europe as them and us and not a union of European countries. If they had, we might have had better measures in place for ensuring the Greeks and Irish and Italians and the rest were actuially meeting the economic rules for Euro zone membership and maintaining economic discipline once in.
Its obvious you like the EU and living in Belgium, agree our euro MP's should be more involved, personally I think Nigel Farage is doing a brilliant job telling the euocrats what hand jugglers they are, ;D
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See the difference is i provide links to back upo my point of view, you provide........................nothing. Theres no one anywhere agrees with you, wheras theres plenty of educated, intelligent people in the know, from the ONS, the Telegraph and The Economist who agree with me.
So where do you think I came up with the amount Total is about to spend in the Shetlands after Gas? My allotment?
Here. Suck on this Yokel: http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2009/02/20/sullom-voe-to-be-hub-for-all-west-of-shetland-gas-under-total-plan
If you are going to debate on the internet, you need to start providing supporting evidence, otherwise your arguments have no merit or substance. Lets see your evidence, or we can assume ther isnt any, and you POV is a pile of guesswork and hot air. if yo uare going to cal me wrong, yo uare also calling the BBCc, the Telegraph, the Economist, several government think tanks and many other very smart people wrong, includinmg academics and industrialists, and you need some seriously good counter evidence to do that, not just your own personal bluster and waffle.
Now I'm done in this thread.. Thank you. :)
[Edited to add] Thank you Ceres, but faced with the accusation of filling my post with no more then personal bluster and waffle, I think a simple 'Oh shut up!' to be quite acceptable.]
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Just a gentle reminder that there is an IGNORE button and that when either or both parties start to argue about the personality or atitude of the other is often a good time to use it.
(http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_4331.gif) (http://www.desismileys.com/)
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Mr Smith - There's a great deal wrong with the EU and the way its run and the levels of incompetence especially amongst EMPs but on the whole, we're better off with it and in it than without it. Better to solve disputes round a table than with guns and better to strive together to earn economic and social security for citizens especially in the face of competition from developing countries. I just feel the UK, by sitting on the edge, has missed out on great opportunities to shape it to be more efficient.
On a purely practical and personal note, it's great being able to drive freely from one country to another, it's great needing only one purse - except for trips to the UK and it's great being able to compare prices of goods on-line and get the best deal and again, except for the UK, it's great being able t take our dog on holiday with no fuss.
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It is also ludicrous to think that Brussels is a bogey man that will take over everything.
The avowed, open, declared aim, voice by many of the EU leaders, is a unified European Superstate, A United States of Europe, which involves the destruction of national identity, and the destruction of national parlaiments and individual nations. If you like i can muster you up 25+ links showing where the poltical leaders of the EU have openly stated this in the last 15 years. There would be no more 'england' or 'scotland' or 'germany' or 'france'. We would become 'Economic Regions of the EU superstate -0 in fact, those regions have already been laid out, england is Economic Regions 16 and 17, divided down the middle horzontally. This is not fantasy, or made up, this is a printed declared aim of the EU, the Lisbon Treaty, if you care to wade through it, lays down the legal ground for this. The Lisbon Treaty gave the EU the power to
-dissolve and ban national parliments
-forbid any political party that doesnt support the EU, or is only a national party.
-make illegal any oppostion to the EU
-enforce compulsory joining of the single currency.
and many other entirely undemocratic and dangerous powers
It lays down the right of the EU to have an EU army, and an EU police force, which have superior powers over national police forces. It Gives the Eu the right to build and maintian an army, controlled from Brussels. Instead of owning and running our own country, we will be a minority of 65 million in a superstate of 500 million, and our national interests will come very low down on the list. So perosanlly, i prefer to be in my own country, with our own elected representatives, making choices that put us and our national interests first. Why does the EU need an army, and a police force?
The problem is people like you are lambs to the slaughter, wide eyed innocents totally oblivious to the truth about the true intentions and aims of the EU. And thats exactly how they intended it to be, because they are devious and cunning, and know softly softly catchee monkee.
As Mulder said, the truth is out there. You just have to stop believing the horse poo fed to you by the europhiles who have taken over our political system (peopel like Clegg, Mandelson, Balls, and Harman ), and start doing your own research on the subject. You''ll soon discover the horrific truth about the EU's intentions.
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Mr Smith - There's a great deal wrong with the EU and the way its run and the levels of incompetence especially amongst EMPs but on the whole, we're better off with it and in it than without it. Better to solve disputes round a table than with guns and better to strive together to earn economic and social security for citizens especially in the face of competition from developing countries. I just feel the UK, by sitting on the edge, has missed out on great opportunities to shape it to be more efficient.
On a purely practical and personal note, it's great being able to drive freely from one country to another, it's great needing only one purse - except for trips to the UK and it's great being able to compare prices of goods on-line and get the best deal and again, except for the UK, it's great being able t take our dog on holiday with no fuss.
Throughout the EU there is evidence that money has been wasted or even stolen on an industrial scale, literally in skipfuls.. In Southern Italy, money has gone to Mafia-controlled construction companies and bogus energy projects. Across the EU expensive projects lie unused and unfit for purpose, despite receiving funding of millions of Euros. Farmers are being paid for crops that were never grown, sheep being double counted to get extra grants.
The European Court of Auditors challenged the EU to get a grip on its spending after yet again finding ‘material errors’ in last year’s £88billion budget. Its president, Vitor Manuel da Silva Caldeira, said about 5 per cent of the budget – some £4billion – was spent wrongly or simply missing and unaccounted for. Multiply that by 16 years, and the ndouble to reveal somthing like the true nature of corruption and fraud in the EU, yo uare looking at probably 100 billion euroes swindled or embezzled, and some of that is out taxes, which would have been better kept by us and spent on us.
The Eu is rotten and corrupt to the core, and we have no comeback on it, the EU parliment is a toothless rubber stamping exercise for show purposes, just like the old Soviet Duma on which it is modelled was. The true power in the EU lies in its unelected , unaccountable Commissionaires and President, all safely protected by EU law from any responsibilty or democratic accountability..
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Instead of owning and running our own country, we will be a minority of 65 million in a superstate of 500 million, and our national interests will come very low down on the list. So perosanlly, i prefer to be in my own country, with our own elected representatives, making choices that put us and our national interests first.
Oh you are a tease Lincsy! All that bluster about why Scottish independence is bad, when clearly you understood why it should happen all the time!! ;D ;D :P
BY THE WAY THIS IS A JOKE, OK?
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Instead of owning and running our own country, we will be a minority of 65 million in a superstate of 500 million, and our national interests will come very low down on the list. So perosanlly, i prefer to be in my own country, with our own elected representatives, making choices that put us and our national interests first.
Oh you are a tease Lincsy! All that bluster about why Scottish independence is bad, when clearly you understood why it should happen all the time!! ;D ;D :P
BY THE WAY THIS IS A JOKE, OK?
What part of my post dont you understand................?
Lets resort to cartoons..........heres Europe according to the Germans
http://alphadesigner.com/img/artwork-mapping-stereotypes-03.jpg (http://alphadesigner.com/img/artwork-mapping-stereotypes-03.jpg)
©2011 alphadesigner. All rights reserved, including the obvious ones.
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There is an inconsistency of logic.
UK must not be ruled by Europe - i.e. it is wrong for a larger neighbour to control a smaller neighbour.
Scotland must not make decisions for itself - i.e. it is right for a larger neighbour to control a smaller neighbour.
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It is a matter for the Scots.
Can't see what difference it makes to us the other side of the border.
I am no expert but I think they will struggle but it is there decision.
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As Betula says surely it's up to the Scots what they do ?
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There is an inconsistency of logic.
UK must not be ruled by Europe - i.e. it is wrong for a larger neighbour to control a smaller neighbour.
Scotland must not make decisions for itself - i.e. it is right for a larger neighbour to control a smaller neighbour.
The scots are entirely free to choose, but independance is not what they think its going to be, not by a long chalk, Salmond and the Europhiles are doing a first class brainwashing job on them, and by the time the scots find out they been given a good Blairesque lying to, itll be too late. If you are going to make a decision like that, you need to do it with ALL the facts.
Apart from that, this is the united kingdom, and consists of not onbly Scotland , but England and Wales, as equal partners, dont you think its undemocratic we dont get to vote as well? After all, scots mp's vote in our parliment, on affiars nothing to do with scotland, why does not a recipical arrengement exist for the english and welsh in the scots assembly. This is the trouble with the scots, everything is one sided. OFC we all know why. if you asked the english if they wanted the scots i nthe Union, the answer would be no. Exactly the same result if you asked the english if they wanted to be in the EU. English politcians deny the democratic right of the english to decide there own fates, wheras the scoits get to choose. Thats why we have be plunged so deep into the EU without the english ever being asked to give a democratic mandate for it. The EU, like Scots independance, is the wet dream of a few hundred europhiles in ket positions of power. No one asked the English if they wanted any of it.
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This thread has got a bit silly & I have nothing else to add. Shame, could've been an interesting chat.
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Just a quick reminder that the inhabitants of Northern Ireland are citizens of the uk as well.
I do think it would be interesting for the English to be able to vote to leave the Union themselves but I wonder if the North and the West Country would want to go with the rest of " England " ?
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Personally I've never wanted a Jock side in the Premiership which in the past they have tried to do, this will just put the top hat on it, Yippppeeee. You are right about the West Country especially that lot in Cornwall, on holiday the other year down there a local was moaning in this pub in Truro that he could not sit in HIS favorite seat because of the 'Bloody English' that are on holiday down there, I said to him only for mugs like me driving all this way for ten days in the peeing rain your bloody pub would be shut, :)
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This thread has got a bit silly & I have nothing else to add. Shame, could've been an interesting chat.
The only problem is people who try and debate and then cant provide any supporting evidence to back up there point of view. That IS the art of debate. Just posting random thoughts with no facts to prop them up isnt debate, its little more than a pissing competition at the back of the pub. Ive engaged in debate on forums all across the internet, some of what passes for debate here wouldnt last the poster five minutes on some Politics boards. I was arguing with pro Bush americans on the Iraq war first time round, those debates got extremely savage. Ive also kept my end of the argument up with some of the most battle hardened fanatics on the net on vegetarian, lesbian, antihunting and socialist forums. even Mumsnet can get pretty nasty, all those bored middle class ex finishing school mums with nowt else to do during the day. Debating on the internet is a skill you have to learn.
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Seeing as we are more a lively discussion group and allotment forum, not a boring debating society, we have nothing to worry about. I for one do not want to go trawling the internet just to prove a point on a million subjects. I have better things to do. They use a saying around these parts 'jack of all trades, master of none'. Still whatever floats your boat.
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This thread has got a bit silly & I have nothing else to add. Shame, could've been an interesting chat.
The only problem is people who try and debate and then cant provide any supporting evidence to back up there point of view. That IS the art of debate. Just posting random thoughts with no facts to prop them up isnt debate, its little more than a pissing competition at the back of the pub. ...
Then perhaps you'd like to provide references to the farrago of nonsense that you posted about the Lisbon Treaty. I doubt that a third of the claims that you made were factually accurate. If it's easier, you may prefer to give references to page number, then paragraph rather than Article/Para/Sub, especially as there are also Protocols involved.
Just as a reminder, you claimed:
The Lisbon Treaty gave the EU the power to
-dissolve and ban national parliments
-forbid any political party that doesnt support the EU, or is only a national party.
-make illegal any oppostion to the EU
-enforce compulsory joining of the single currency.
and many other entirely undemocratic and dangerous powers
It lays down the right of the EU to have an EU army, and an EU police force, which have superior powers over national police forces. It Gives the Eu the right to build and maintian an army, controlled from Brussels.
Don't forget, not just an army and a police force, but with superior powers!
... even Mumsnet can get pretty nasty, ....
I'll bet.
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Seeing as we are more a lively discussion group and allotment forum, not a boring debating society
He's right. Many of us on here (including me) have learnt, over time, that it's a much nicer atmosphere when we keep our stronger views to ourselves, and when we express them we do so with courtesy & respect. So that's what we do. I'm not interested in changing ACE's mind on global warming, and he couldn't give a monkeys what I think about um, say, the middle east peace process (I made that up, he really might care - we've never discussed it). There are plenty of debating societies out there (which few of us are members of, for good reason), why not try asking them how their sowing & planting plans are coming along this year?!
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This is not a political debating society - this is a gardening discussion forum. Posters having been warned before about constant political hyjacking of threads. This, specifically, is a general "chit chat" board ie one for casual conversation; small talk or even gossip - a lot of posts here do not reflect that.
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Debating on some forum is not exactly what I would call debating, surely face to face in a smoke filled room in a gentlemans club, I'll stop there because I'm no gentleman, ;D
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The clock changing thing is down to the 'europeans' wanting us to be on the same timezone as them.
Never surrender to Berlin time!!!
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The clock changing thing is down to the 'europeans' wanting us to be on the same timezone as them.
Never surrender to Berlin time!!!
I never get the hang of the clock changing thing. to me, mid-day is when the sun is at it's highest.
we get sunrise here almost 7 minutes before greenwich, btw
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Come on Ollie. I can remember a few years back when you could be a right old rebel rouser. :
The Shed is meant for stuff other than gardening............and to be fair the origanal post was political.
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I'm actually quite offended at the comparison, Den.
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I was not comparing you ,just pointing out that there was a time when you would make a point quite strongly.
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The clock changing thing is down to the 'europeans' wanting us to be on the same timezone as them.
Never surrender to Berlin time!!!
Its also to do largely with the fact the London Stock Exchange opens an hour later than the Börse Berlin AG, and closes an hour later, Berlin time, and this gives us a bit of a trading advantage, and the germans want us on the same time to wipe that advantage out. Its the german stockbrokers mainly who keep pushing this one.
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Just been having a very in depth debate at work with my mate which took most of our brew time(we only get ten minutes) who is Scottish and very political about the pending Independence referendum, according to him 'The man from Aberdeen says No', :)
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I have just been seeing on the BBC new channel someone who says that they will stay in the pound after independence and then have another vote on joining the Euro.
So if they vote for independence what makes them think we will accept them staying in the pound. Looks like they want a heads they win, tails they win scenario. They cannot be separate when it suits and attached as well. If they vote for independence they will either have to have their own currency or join the Euro surely they must know that is what they are voting for.
Those who have joined the Euro have now found out that they have to play by the German/French fiscal rules.
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Once of a day you had a job to spend to get a Jock pound note in England or get it changed, long before we went anywhere near the Common Market, :)
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Reading the Sundays, currently the most popular option with 70% in Scotland would be Devo Max. This would involve a seperate government with totally seperate governance ,tax raising and expenditure power but under an umbrella of UK citizenship. Spain has a similar set up with the Basque and Catalan areas. This is the option that currently would not feature in any referendum. Sounds like the Scot's do not fear the seperation out of their economy.
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there are a few major issues not being discussed by the govt.
1, Britain 'needs' Scotland for it's deep water submarine docks.
2, Britain 'needs' Scotland for it's RAF bases ( nr Arctic circle)
3, Scotland's multi million pound deal to supply farmed salmon to the far east ( china ) ( it's part of the giant panda deal )
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Please stop referring too us as Jocks.
As an exile for many years. I don't think I would concider moving back, if Scotland became independent. I don't think It would survive as a country alone. England won't let Scotland go on its own until the oil runs out, and given the new technology for removing it from oil shale that won't be for thirty to forty years. My views only for what their worth.
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We are all BRITISH IF OUR COUNTRY NEEDED US WE ALL WOULD BE THERE AS ONE This is politics spotlight this and everything else is hidden
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We are all BRITISH IF OUR COUNTRY NEEDED US WE ALL WOULD BE THERE AS ONE This is politics spotlight this and everything else is hidden
Is this the only valid argument for the Union?
I'm finding it very hard in the world of 2012 to think of genuine reasons other than simply patriotism why the Scots shouldn't just leave, if they want to.
Both Scotland and a reduced UK (E, W & NI) would be economically viable. Whether Scotland adopted the euro, tied itself to the pound, or went back to the groat is a mere detail.
The most difficult thing for individuals living in the "wrong" country would be which citizenship to adopt (or dual nationality), since that could affect their duties under the respective laws and, presumably, access to pensions and public services.
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After reading all these comments I have come to the conclusion that Alex Salmond is a brave man!
But then again he is ...... from the " Land of the Brave"
The other thing is; will it be his Bannockburn or his Culloden?
Another point of view could be; Is Alex Salmond only aspiring to becoming Scotlands answer to Mel Gibson?
I can just hear him on the floors of the Scottish parliament shouting;
Freeeeedom!! (http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Graphics/scotlandc4e.gif)
History states wee Wullie Wallace lost his heid at Westminster (bridge that is) will history repeat itself and oor wee Alex will lose his at Westminster Palace?
Who will David and Nick get to arbitrate the forthcoming discussions on the subject?
Will it be that reknowned peace negotiator Tony the Blair, or will they get Mandelson in the hope that he will bring music to their ears!........aaaaH! I can just hear those overtures!
I also recall that after Wullie Wallace, Robert the Bruce was the saviour of the Scots
Who will be their savior this time?
It is said that Robert the Bruce made his decision to rule after watching a spider construct its web!
Is it possible that the new successor might be Gordon the Brown who has been following the events on the wwWeb?
I can just see him charging up Princes street on his black stallion called Loyd, (passing the Royal Bank of Scotland) en-route to Holyrood.
(http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Graphics/scotlandc4e.gif)Hooray !!!! Scotland is saved again (http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Graphics/scotlandc4e.gif)
Up the rebels!!
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Tee Gee, you owe me a keyboard. :-[
Funny as mate. :D