Allotments 4 All
General => The Shed => Topic started by: Borlotti on August 07, 2011, 22:51:35
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Well I am standing outside my house with a big stick, but OH told me to come in. We have just put out a fire that the lovely hoodies sent light to, and luckily it didn't catch light to the car near it. The police helicopter is over head, and I want to go to bed, I am so tired. The grandchildren went to MacDonalds in Enfield today but were home before all the trouble kicked off. Enfield is not too good at present, as they are all coming from Tottenham to cause trouble here and I have been told not to get involved and beat the sh.t out of them because I am too old, but I would have a good go and die fighting. I just want to go to bed and sleep.
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Oh dear Borlotti! I think I would go inside, lock my door and turn out the lights! Poor you!
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You poor thing! Feel for you my friend!
I remember being caught up in the race riots of the 80's. I knew some of the people involved, and I knew them from school. At school, I used to stand up to them no problems, because I knew they were reaaly whimps.
But I also knew that when they were with a mob, I'd have had my head split open for no good reason if I'd have even said anything.....
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It seems to have calmed down now, and Charlie (the cat) is asleep in the laundry basket, so think I will go to bed. Might pop into Enfield town tomorrow to do some looting, they was a joke in bad taste, might get a free McDonalds (sick).
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Why is it happening, it hasn;t reached this side on the news XX Jeannine
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Nothing around where I live but friends nearer the town have been putting stuff on Facebook
I put the news on at ten before went to bed and it seems that twats are getting trains and buses into Enfield Town and running around smashing shops up, I saw a police dog grabbing some kids leg and to think up till them I've never been that keep on dogs.
It showed a chemist opposite where OH works and they've dismantled the slabs and bricks from a wall and used as weapons, the police station is just 100 yards from it, they use a back street and an alley to get on to Enfield Town Centre from there.
This is NOT a riot because of the shooting in Tottenham Hale, this is Organised crime, it is chemists, Jewellers and the like being robbed, they know the police are stretched and are guarding certain buildings, so they cause mahem starting fires and throwing things at the police, ringing people and texting to come and join in whilst the ringleaders rob chemists and jewellers and are away whilst all the idiots get caught up in it.
:( :( :(
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What a welcome home for you Kev, and poor Borlotti. I do hope things calm down . I would feel like you Borlotti, wanting to have go but there are far too many of them to take on.. Best place is inside looking after Charlie
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No jokes for anyone living near the hot spots. Lets hope the police can get things under control asap. I used to live near Brixton used like see all the interesting veggies in the market. 40 years ago there where also rumblings of trouble there.
Lets hope the problems do not spread.
PL no polite comment.
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Now perhaps all the goody twoshoes will realise that their dreams of multi culturism and diversity is just that, dreams. These sort of neighbourhoods are bad news. They are giving a message out saying you might have shot one of our dealers, but you ain't going to police us. We will live in England and take all the handouts you are daft enough to give us, but we will live under our own rules.
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Good morning ACE.
couple of points
1, has the chap who was Killed by the Police been tried and convicted by anyone (except you) of being a 'dealer' ?
2, multi-culturism? it seems to work round here, we've got food shops from all over the world, and a very diverse ethnic background of staff at our local hospital. ;)
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My thoughts go to all the decent ordinary people who are affected by this trouble.
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I lived in Hornsey as a teenager and we lads went dancing to Tottenham in the middle 1950s - can't remember the name of the dancehall - and there was always trouble although multi-culturism wasn't a word. There were louts with bicycle chains and knives who'd slash out at the slightest excuse. Where are these people today?
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Yeah, well said ACE. Utter mens bits of course, but well said utter mens bits.
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since the guy that got shot seems apparently now to be the salt of the earth and wouldn't harm a fly, perhaps the lesson of it is - don't buy a novelty cigarette lighter from a dodgy bloke down the pub, and don't try lighting a f*g with it when your taxi is surrounded by armed police
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I can understand if people want to peacefully protest agaist a killing but at a loss to understand how looting shops helps the situation??
Now there is talk of people being unemployed as the reason why this has happened..........??This is so British...........they should have enough photographic evidence of people who broke the law and they should round them up and have them in court.
Ethnic oragin should not come in to it...........they are law breakers and should be dealt with purely on that basis.
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...
couple of points
1, has the chap who was Killed by the Police been tried and convicted by anyone (except you) of being a 'dealer' ?
2, multi-culturism? it seems to work round here, we've got food shops from all over the world, and a very diverse ethnic background of staff at our local hospital. ;)
1. Yes
2. You are confusing multikulti with cultural diversity.
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My thoughts are with all our A4A memebrs caught up in it. Its horrible, I hope that you have no damage and its over soon, having lived though some riots myself in NI i know how angry and frustated it makes you feel.
Its no excuse for a session of casual racism.
I've not seen a single woman rioting but it doesnt mean im going to tar all men as evil rioting ba5tards.
x sunloving
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According to the bbc the Met have dealt with incidents in brixton, walthamstow, islington and oxford circus, chelsea, waltham forest and ponders end ::)
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Just drove down the A10 on my way into work and went to pull into sainsburys to get some petrol......Sainsburys has been smashed up and petrol station closed, looked over to the Toys R Us retail park and it is covered in police tape and police are manning the turn off so no one can enter, Curry's, comet and the sports shop have been smashed up >:(.
i was talking to my husband last night we both agreed that would be damaged as that is what the looters want, electricals and sportswear. It is mindless vandalism. I am so angry to be hearing about the twaddle people are saying about the poor disenfranchised youths. they are thugs and vandals and no one made them do it, they only done it to get free stuff and no other reason.
we must stop listening to the "do gooders" and the "bleeding heart brigade" and we must set up our own human rights and stop all of this breakdown in our society and people not taking responsibility for themselves and their actions or this country is going to hell in a handcart >:(
Sorry for the rant, I know i am not being politically correct but I have been for years and i now think that is why we are in the state we are in now
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well I hope they spread our way, It's not that I have any particular grievances, it's just that I fancy a free widescreen telly and a new pair of trainers ???
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Keep it cool folks please.
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Now perhaps all the goody twoshoes will realise that their dreams of multi culturism and diversity is just that, dreams. These sort of neighbourhoods are bad news. They are giving a message out saying you might have shot one of our dealers, but you ain't going to police us. We will live in England and take all the handouts you are daft enough to give us, but we will live under our own rules.
I agree with the person who described the above as mens bits. Every post on here is a valued opinion except this one.
Borlotti I hope things are calming down in your area today :)
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We will live in England and take all the handouts you are daft enough to give us, but we will live under our own rules.
This does seem to happening.
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Now perhaps all the goody twoshoes will realise that their dreams of multi culturism and diversity is just that, dreams. These sort of neighbourhoods are bad news. They are giving a message out saying you might have shot one of our dealers, but you ain't going to police us. We will live in England and take all the handouts you are daft enough to give us, but we will live under our own rules.
I lived in Tottenham for ages and although I wouldn't describe it as a Utopia I wouldn't judge it that harshly and seeing how you have probably never even visited there I take your opinion of it with a large pinch of salt. Not all of us want to live in a whites only monoculture.
Personally I believe that this has feck all to do with the guy who was shot - this was organised crime taking advantage of a peaceful demo.
An utter disgrace, no excuses and bang the lot of em up - I still know many people round there and feel for waht they are going thorugh. Stuff all this political bullshit...
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I lived in Tottenham for ages and although I wouldn't describe it as a Utopia I wouldn't judge it that harshly and seeing how you have probably never even visited there I take your opinion of it with a large pinch of salt.
Harsh or not, it is the way I see it. I have heard nothing that has made me change my mind. I have worked in Tottenham, building some community gardens for the disabled, it took a while as we had to rebuild the trashed bits every morning. I read that the community is at odds with the Police because of the shooting. Why? If a dealer got shot down this way we would not need an explanation. I also hear that he is a ' Elder' of the community, which I understand means they respect him. Am I missing something here? respect for a crack dealer, sorry but not in the terrible, awful bigotted world people assume that I live in. I note there was no condolences from his employers, but perhaps he didn't need to work to support his 4 kids, taxi fares, jewelry habit, guns etc.
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Excellent article here
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100099840/tottenham-riots-the-history-lesson-from-los-angeles-is-that-the-modern-middle-class-wont-tolerate-mob-rule/
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Well said Barriedale
I was born in Wood Green, lived in Palmers Green, and went out inTottenham, (does Eltons still exist)....
Froglegsl I find you insulting. I was born in London of immigrant parents and my family have never claimed benefit, never looted, my parents and myself have contributed to this country and yes my family have lived by THE RULES OF THIS COUNTRY! So you go ahead and place me in that group of looting thugs that took an opportunity to created havoc!
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Ace - agree with all that you said in the last post. I have no sympathy for the rioters at all, no sympathy for the people who carry guns, no respect for crack dealers etc.
What I take exception to is the fact that I have known and still do know many people in these areas, black, brown and yes even white. They work, live and play in these places and they strive to make it better. I used to work for a charity in the heart of tottenham and we worked for the local disabled children - we got support from all sides of the community. Not saying it was a walk in the park and we fought hard for what we achieved.
Then once in a while a group of professional thugs and idiots undermine all the good that gets done.
Then all we hear from you and many others is how crap everything is and how it's down to MutliCulturalism and immigration ie it's the blacks fault..
I know that we only tend react to bad news but there are many people in these communities producing lots of good news - it's a pity we don't hear more of that..
Happy you have visited Sunny 'nam - at least you have some idea of the problems that the good people of these places have to face. ;)
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Just back from a weekend in Skeggy in the caravan no trouble there apart from some Jock bloke moaning that I shoved in front of him to get served in the Working mens club, from what I have seen on the TV these are Black London crims not foreigners but Brits with white scum thrown in, they need sorting out fast and not by building more community gardens,
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Forum rule - ZERO tolerance of discrimination.
Any posts making sweeping generalisations based on colour/religion/ethnic background/sexual orientation/disability etc. will be removed and the poster is likely to earn a ban.
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Get the Army in............let them deal with the lawless idiots.
The way it is spreading the police willl not be able to handle it
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Well said Barriedale
I was born in Wood Green, lived in Palmers Green, and went out inTottenham, (does Eltons still exist)....
Froglegsl I find you insulting. I was born in London of immigrant parents and my family have never claimed benefit, never looted, my parents and myself have contributed to this country and yes my family have lived by THE RULES OF THIS COUNTRY! So you go ahead and place me in that group of looting thugs that took an opportunity to created havoc!
There should be a "Support" or "Like" button in "The Shed. "
:)
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I'll say this for the last time it was nothing to do with the gunman getting killed in Tottenham Hale
My mate of mixed race at work lives in Tottenham and believe me this gunman was was known by my mate and was deffo a wrong un
The looters were jumping on trains and coming into Enfield Town to rob Jewellers, chemists, PC world etc, it was organised crime, they did this because they knew the police were deployed in Tottenham, they were lighting fires drawing the police away from robbing, then the looters just take over, they are not people on benifits they are young people who think this is America and its fun, lets face it they spend all their time on their computers games shooting police, nicking cars, etc.
Give them an hour to clear the streets, get the army in the shoot the looting barstards, let the do gooders chew on that one. :( :( :(
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sound like a flash mob bad.
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Yes lets segregate men, imprison them all until such time as they can prove that they are innocent then and only then can we live in a free and safe society.
Make everyone prove that they are female, introduce female only workplaces , areas schools and keep those violent men appart -its for their own good. stop them from producing male babies ......
Please.
lets just make sure people who commit crimes are punished and not victimise people becuase of the colour of thier skins or thier ethnic origins.
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Hear hear Sunloving.
From the little I have managed to fiind out about these awful happenings, as it is not on ours news, is dreadful.
My heart goes out to you all that are close, stay safe.
I also feel for the folks who are being punished by along with the bad guys because of their race or colour.
Perhaps it is not easy to stop the riots but it should not be too hard to stop the insinuations that are clearly being made..right on here.
Come on folks stay nice, it is awful to hear such wicked riots but the other is not good either.
As I said earler..stay safe and God willing it will all calm down soon.
XX Jeannine
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There is always a bad element that take advantage of protests wether they are peaceful protests or other. They see the chance to get something for nothing by looting while the police are occupied with something else. Lets just hope that our friends on here keep themselves safe while all this unrest is going on.
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I'll say this for the last time it was nothing to do with the gunman getting killed in Tottenham Hale
My mate of mixed race at work lives in Tottenham and believe me this gunman was was known by my mate and was deffo a wrong un
The looters were jumping on trains and coming into Enfield Town to rob Jewellers, chemists, PC world etc, it was organised crime, they did this because they knew the police were deployed in Tottenham, they were lighting fires drawing the police away from robbing, then the looters just take over, they are not people on benifits they are young people who think this is America and its fun, lets face it they spend all their time on their computers games shooting police, nicking cars, etc.
Give them an hour to clear the streets, get the army in the shoot the looting barstards, let the do gooders chew on that one. :( :( :(
Ditto, Ditto and Ditto from me,
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Surely the problems are due to not treating the causes but the effects.
The human race is part of a species known as animals, just like chickens (part) & pigs.
If you pack chickens or pigs into a confined space and don't keep them occupied, they will turn on themselves and eat each other!
Treat the cause(s) and the progress road towards co-existance may materialise.
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They are starting in Birmingham City Centre now...........Idiots >:(
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Just seen an excellent post on Twitter, from someone called PoppyArmyWife:
if these bigshots want to fight & man up take them out of our city centres & send them to Afghanistan, then maybe my husband can come home.
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I agree with Kev, get the army in. Everyone I spoke to today in Enfield was so mad, that they could just get away with it. It is not doing much good for race relations, although some are black some are white and I think they are all just out for trouble, and theft. The police do not seem to deal with it, Argos shut, PC World (all windows smashed) and all the shops shut tonight as more trouble coming. Let's hope the shops have numbers on the phones and TV's so at least the phones that have been stolen can be blocked. Oh yes, I stole a mobile phone, it is so good, but I can't phone anyone. Result. I think the police should search the houses of people that they think have stolen goods and if it is a stolen TV recycle it, that would teach them. Should be quiet tonight as all the criminals watching TV or trying to use their mobile phones.
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my parents live in hackney mum was coming home via mare st just as the trouble kicked off the police kept them on the bus till the idiots went past and then let them run for it which was great for my mum with a limb as she tore her Achilles tendon 10 years ago and it never knitted back together. She was in such a state when she made it walked 2 miles home :( The people rioting are not local they all just arrived from outside the area. Brothers home and the police are sending them down towards his road and dads not home yet :(
Not happy!
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No indeed not happy........hope all is well Cam.
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PC world was totally cleared out, they was selling laptops for £20 a couple of hundred yards away
The tesco's where I shop (sorry) was looted, the littlun wants to know where we are going to buy her chicken nuggets from :(
Enfield town centre has been closed for two days while they clear up, so no wages for some
OH worked in the council building which is 100 yards fom the old bill station, so that was open
She was shocked when she came home after seeing the debris and smashed chemist opposite and other shops along the road
:( :( :(
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all family home and safe :)
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Thank goodness for that!
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I live in a quiet seaside town and my heart goes out to you guys :(
I don't understand it -don't want to understand it but I hope all my A4 mates are safe tonight :-*
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At the risk of being banned for making sweeping racial generalisations, I'm hugely amused to hear that Turkish shopkeepers in Dalston have banded together to protect their shops and have given some of the looters a good beating with their own metal poles.
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At the risk of being banned for making sweeping racial generalisations, I'm hugely amused to hear that Turkish shopkeepers in Dalston have banded together to protect their shops and have given some of the looters a good beating with their own metal poles.
brilliant read something about that on twitter and though it was a joke :)
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Well said Barriedale
I was born in Wood Green, lived in Palmers Green, and went out inTottenham, (does Eltons still exist)....
Froglegsl I find you insulting. I was born in London of immigrant parents and my family have never claimed benefit, never looted, my parents and myself have contributed to this country and yes my family have lived by THE RULES OF THIS COUNTRY! So you go ahead and place me in that group of looting thugs that took an opportunity to created havoc!
I'm sorry that you found me insulting,but there are immigrants(by no means all)who come into the UK just for the benefits that are not available in there own country,and then bite the hand that feeds them by contributing nothing in return apart from trying to change this society in to the society that they fled from in the first place with there utter disrespect for the the law and there contempt for citizens of the UK,I'm not blaming multiculturalism or immigration, because I don't judge anybody by the colour of there skin or there nationality but by there character or lack of it,but I do blame the powers(who should take a leaf out of the Turkish shop-keepers book) at be for doing bugger about it.
Hope I've put my point of view across a little bit better than I did before Duke Ellington it was not my intention to insult you or anybody, if I did please accept my apologies and lets not fall out over it.
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Surely that is looking at things from a negative point of view when there are thousands and thousands of immigrants who don't act like that and are great members of society. In my experience the bad apples in this world are usually strongly outnumbered by the good guys.
XX Jeannine
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Trouble in Brum,Liverpool and Bristol overnight.
Ealing bad last night, armour cars deployed
:(
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Saw some unbelievable pictures on the TV in the early hours.Young thugs able to loot and burn with no bother from the police.Saw Debenhams looted for nearly two hours before police arrived.
What a mess we are in......politicians who reluctantly return from their holidays
saying they will be dealt with severely,what a laugh.
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Sorry for anyone caught up in this repulsive business.
The police can't hope to sort out this scale of trouble without something more than shields and truncheons - they need water cannon and d*mn the bleeding heart brigade.
The underlying problem isn't poverty and deprivation it's a lack of morality, honesty and responsibility amongst a disgusting minority of people who don't give a toss about anyone else.
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We watched last night whilst black, white, old ,young, women and men were looting so this has nowt to do with whatever race one is. Its just plain old robbery
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Just drove past the Sony Distribution Centre, the sky is black and it is like driving in the dark. I am so angry at this mindless violence and have no sympathy for the rioters. the problem is that there is no disciplin and respect >:(
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Great Britain?????????? What message is this giving out to the rest of the world we are hosting the Olympic games next year. Keep safe everyone. I am sat watching the news shaking my head in disbelief.
I wonder if the police numbers will still be cut after this?
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The police can't handle this ,time for the army,with water canons and tear gas ,stop pissing about with the the soft handling of this ,they are going to kill some poor bugger if they haven't done it already!Come on Cameron get on with it move your ass show some back bone ,help the pepole of or Olympic city.
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"I wonder if the police numbers will still be cut after this?" Hmmm, that last sentance is VERY interesting........made me think anyway.
However, I was on the phone last night and at 1.30 am to my very scared 18 yr old daughter, who was sent home early from her late shift at an Oxford Street store by police who were warning of trouble heading that way. She got home on the bus ok ( the tubes were shut) to Camden where her student accommodation is, only to see a group of youths running towards her shouting. She was on the phone to me at the time and I have never felt so far away, hearing her running to get inside the gates........ :'( She was on the phone until 1.30 am, by that time there was a fire burning nearby, but a few streets away.
I was born and bred in South London, lived there until my mid 20's and lived through the Harrods and Regents Park bombings and the Brixton riots, but when your kids are exposed to this sort of situation it seems so much worse! We have told her to come home to Derby for a bit if she feels worried this morning...she's asleep now ( at last!) and is going to text me when she wakes up....... :-\
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Terrible. Unusual for me can't think of what to say. Just awful. Let's hope if can be contained and does not spread.
I went to school about 1/2 mile from the burnt out store in Croydon. Still have furniture bought there. Really brings it home.
But there is something desparately wrong. These young people have stopped caring.
Tragic for everyone.
My heart goes out to anyone caught up in this violence.
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How upsetting for you all Deb. Will the government do the right thing, we shall see. It can't be allowed to continue. Five generations have had the Reeves furniture store, part of London's history & wiped out in one fell swoop along with numerous others. Soooooo sad :'(.
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Awful for you Deb....so sorry.
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there is only one choice now the the police have lost control.
call up military up quell violence. issue curfew arrest anyone who breaks it and shoot rioters. will they let London burn.
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Frog legs
I feel that you have explained yourself in better way second time around rather than just latch on to the opinion of another poster who can be antagonist when he discusses most everyday topics eg trips to the supermarket or similar! I do accept your apology .......sort of ...my issue with all of this is that when some thing like this happens so many people are quick to mention immigrants. There are many issues involved with this situation. There were many white youths involved in the vandalism. There were many black youths involved in the vandalism. There is a high percentage of black people living in Tottenham. This is what Tottenham is. So what do we do.....blame immigration. This has little to do with immigration. In fact most of this chaos isn't being created by immigrants.Tottenham is inner city, multicultural and will stay that way. Finally there are many white youths who as you mentioned are...
"Living in the UK just for the benefits, who bites the hand that feeds them by contributing nothing in return"
There really is no need to jump on the immigration issue here.
Duke
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I just wish to extend my sympathy to any/all affected by this. it's just horrible. I just don't have the words.
I was up in Forest Hill on Sunday and am due to go again this weekend although I think I may not go as it's not imperitive.
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Hope she is ok Deb :)
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Frog legs
I feel that you have explained yourself in better way second time around rather than just latch on to the opinion of another poster who can be antagonist when he discusses most everyday topics eg trips to the supermarket or similar! I do accept your apology .......sort of ...my issue with all of this is that when some thing like this happens so many people are quick to mention immigrants. There are many issues involved with this situation. There were many white youths involved in the vandalism. There were many black youths involved in the vandalism. There is a high percentage of black people living in Tottenham. This is what Tottenham is. So what do we do.....blame immigration. This has little to do with immigration. In fact most of this chaos isn't being created by immigrants.Tottenham is inner city, multicultural and will stay that way. Finally there are many white youths who as you mentioned are...
"Living in the UK just for the benefits, who bites the hand that feeds them by contributing nothing in return"
There really is no need to jump on the immigration issue here.
Duke
Just for the record, only you and Barriedalenick mentioned immigration. I realise that it's an old technique, putting words into the mouths of your opponents in a debate in order to knock down an argument that hasn't in fact been made.
The original concern wasn't with immigration or the ridiculous question of skin colour (we might as well debate hair colour or eye colour; Swift would have had a field day). It was about multiculturalism, now widely discredited, but whose effects persist and will continue to do so.
And in case that makes you bristle, let me remind you that "culture" is not an attribute only of a few groups defined by social workers, but of everyone. Even I am allowed to have my "culture", despised though it is by bien pensants.
Multiculturalism has led to the separation of several "cultures" of underclass. The common factors are their lack of schooling, and their overwhelming self-regard. Multiculturalism keeps them within the boundaries of their estates and denies them the opportunity to break free. And the most cursory examination of demographic data will show you, if you really can't break your obsession with skin colour, that the white-skinned underclass hugely outnumber the black.
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I just wish to extend my sympathy to any/all affected by this. it's just horrible. I just don't have the words.
I was up in Forest Hill on Sunday and am due to go again this weekend although I think I may not go as it's not imperitive.
I live in Forest Hill - its fine here..
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There are lots of pictures of the rioters (There are gonna be loads of people employed to pour over the pictures and recognize the guilty parties)...and they are of all colours. So the immigration debate seems moot. And as an immigrant myself I feel legitimate to say that!
I agree with many posters, it comes down to respect. No more work ethic, no more tolerance of others' opinions, it's easier to lie, cheat and steal and sell drugs (and you have more chance of getting away with it). In the past people were poor but honest however now this type of behavior is seen as socially acceptable in some parts. My parents were poor but they didn't steal or riot. My grandfather was a miner with 7 children - he never got anything from anybody and he worked hard to support his family. That sounds like an old fuddy duddy argument but I am hardly a right-winger! The bad apples do spoil the lot, and such a shame for all the people working hard to improve their community.
This is just CRIME - it's looting, stealing and arson. The means from our point of view over here do seem insufficient - in France they would have brought out the anti riot squad who don't take any c**p and don't hesitate to use tear gas, and water cannons and break up the mobs that are causing the trouble. These guys take their chances, and as law abiding citizens we have a duty to say that their behavior will not be tolerated.
I consider myself to be a tolerant person but I think that extreme measures are needed in extreme situations. This is not a political protest, it is social mutiny and an insult to all the people who work hard and keep their noses clean.
I hope all of you and your property remain safe.
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Youth Service budget to be cut by 75 per cent to around £650,000, saving £1.96million by 2013. Eight youth centres closed already, the remaining five under threat.
Connexions careers advice service for vulnerable young people reduced by 75 per cent saving £1.64million
Childrens centre service reduced and targeted at most vulnerable, saving £6.52million by 2013.
This is just Haringey
http://www.haringey.org.uk/content/cuts/159-haringey-cuts-in-brief
How do these kind of cuts fit into the equation? What sort of message does it send?
I think we have too many young people with an attitude problem and hence the need to import workers from Poland, Slovakia etc.
their overwhelming self-regard
I think this is so right. Young people have been encouraged to be confident but somehow managed to loose sight of consideration for others. The 'Do as you would be done by' lessons have been missed. Which seems to go right back to Ancient Greece.
Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others." – Isocrates
; "What you avoid suffering yourself try not to impose on others. ...
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we only seem to get this kind of trouble when a conservative gov is in power
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Time for panic buying and sleepless nights. As usual we are surprised and unprepared, but in hindsight maybe we should have seen it coming.
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Cameron get the troops in & water cannons, get some backbone man & get theses THUGS & LOOTERS off our streets NOW. >:( >:( >:( >:(
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we only seem to get this kind of trouble when a conservative gov is in power
Well there's a surprise! ;D ;D ;D
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots
And this, from Penny Red who I think is an excellent writer & commentator:
http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html?spref=fb
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we only seem to get this kind of trouble when a conservative gov is in power
Well there's a surprise! ;D ;D ;D
they must be doing something right then
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we only seem to get this kind of trouble when a conservative gov is in power
Well there's a surprise! ;D ;D ;D
they must be doing something right then
Indeed. And can you imagine the outrage if conservative voters had rioted every time their freedoms were curtailed by the recent labour administrations.
Riot and violence are the natural political weapons of fascists. This was UK Uncut's kristallnacht.
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I had so much I wanted to say but upon reflection, I don't feel I can say anything. I know that must sound silly but the more I watch, the more speechless I become about it all.
One thing I am sure of, more affirmative action is needed. Watching those situations play out bit by bit live on air last night was sickening. Force is needed, examples need to be set. It's very difficult to watch as these morons just get away with it and peoples lives are being ruined. Why is that happening? It's all very well for MP after MP to make stupid statements such as, 'this will not be tolerated', 'these criminals will be brought to justice', etc etc - no they won't, they never are and the crims themselves know it - why do you think they're out there on the street with their nonchalant attitudes, destroying people's lives and property? They don't care. They know that it'll take forever to get to court and when it does, they'll be fined or given a six month suspended sentence.
Anyway, I said I wouldn't get started and I can't - else I'll be here all day, LOL
For those in the areas involved; be safe. Do as the police ask and try not to go out on the streets. It's very disruptive to every day life but the alternatives could be worse. I see the man who was shot in his car in Croydon last night has died but I can't comment too much on that as I don't know the full details. My husband and I were in Enfield on Sunday night when it kicked off and although it wasn't close to us, there was definitely a lot more people and traffic on the streets as we left and it does feel unnerving.
I find it distressing and sad - and I also feel immensely angry about it all >:(
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hordes of young people of every creed and colour coming together with a common purpose, lots of running about and throwing things, extraordinary disruption and vast expense..............can't we just pretend the Olympics have started early?
the People's Olympics?
the Peckham Olympics?
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I heard on the news today that they will be brought to court & sentenced quickly. Does that mean prison closures will be put on hold. The justice dept faces a 23% cut................
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Their sentencing should include helping to clear up and rebuild some of the damage they've done. Let them learn first hand what it's like to make something from scratch and have it destroyed by morons like them.
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sorry guys but previous goverment spending and welfare is what caused problems in first place.
the solution is making the unemployed and young work for living thus that means making the UK job friendly which mean tax system need to be reformed.
Ps if want deal with the rioters I suggest you put Joe" Arpaio in charge of prison system.
psps parliament has been recalled !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Now this is more like it...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14456857
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Thank you so much, Barriedalenick, for the link. We've been following all the reports from where we live in SW France, with horror, sadness and despair, and deep concern for all those involved, and the police/firemen/ambulancemen who are doing their job with extreme difficulty. Reading this report was hugelyu uplifting and encouraging.
And I care deeply for your fears, Deb, when your daughter was trying to get home and was so frightened. I understand that so well as a mother of a 31 yr old daughter.
Peanuts
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Well it finally hit our news screen last night, the pictures we saw were of a burning building which looked out of control to me, looked like the war time films, Mood was one of disbelief and uncertainty about the safety of the Olympics was discussed.
Deb, thank God your daughter is safe.
From the bit I am reading it is giving the impression here that it is breaking out all over now.
XX Jeannine
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I heard on the news today that they will be brought to court & sentenced quickly. Does that mean prison closures will be put on hold. The justice dept faces a 23% cut................
I just spoke with a friend who is a magistrate. Apparently the first tranche of prosecutions came up today. They mostly pleaded guilty, in the hope of a discharge or minor slap on the wrist. All were referred to higher courts, on the grounds that the magistrates' powers of sentencing were inadequate. Mags can dish out a year's imprisonment for these offences, so it suggests that the riots will indeed be taken seriously.
I seem to remember that after the Southall riots, some offenders were given 10 years, much to their horror and that of their families. But no amount of political lobbying made any difference, and they had to serve their time. Well, half of it, anyway.
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The Sony centre is 15 min walk from my house and 5 min from work, I saw the smoke billowing out as I walked to work this morning its still smoking now.
A group of vigilantes have gathered at a pub on the high road, they are on the march now, people have had enough, its going to be a long night. :-\
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I heard on the news today that they will be brought to court & sentenced quickly. Does that mean prison closures will be put on hold. The justice dept faces a 23% cut................
I just spoke with a friend who is a magistrate. Apparently the first tranche of prosecutions came up today. They mostly pleaded guilty, in the hope of a discharge or minor slap on the wrist. All were referred to higher courts, on the grounds that the magistrates' powers of sentencing were inadequate. Mags can dish out a year's imprisonment for these offences, so it suggests that the riots will indeed be taken seriously.
I seem to remember that after the Southall riots, some offenders were given 10 years, much to their horror and that of their families. But no amount of political lobbying made any difference, and they had to serve their time. Well, half of it, anyway.
Being sent to Crown does not guarantee a heavier sentence. Crown Courts also have 'not guilty' options, and use it often!
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I know of someone referred to a County Court for ABH for a higher sentence and he was expected to get a prison sentence and ended up with a community service order.
The victim was well upset.
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I was in central and south London last night, picking up one grandson from Stansted Airport, and another from Woolwich. I am so grateful that we are all back safely in East Sussex.
My daughter today, a hospital consultant in a Woolwich hospital, was called back to her nursery to rescue her 1 yr old and 4 yr old to her house, on her bicycle, because the police had advised the nursery to close at mid-day.
Apparently the rioters were arranging to attack her area at 3pm, via various social networks.
She serves seriously ill people who have cancers that she can help - but what can she do when her own children are threatened?
Who on earth are these young, strong,angry people whose lives have been saved by my own parents (2nd World War).
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I know of someone referred to a County Court for ABH for a higher sentence and he was expected to get a prison sentence and ended up with a community service order.
The County Court is a civil court, it doesn't hear criminal cases such as ABH.
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My mistake should have said Crown Court.
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I heard on the news today that they will be brought to court & sentenced quickly. Does that mean prison closures will be put on hold. The justice dept faces a 23% cut................
I just spoke with a friend who is a magistrate. Apparently the first tranche of prosecutions came up today. They mostly pleaded guilty, in the hope of a discharge or minor slap on the wrist. All were referred to higher courts, on the grounds that the magistrates' powers of sentencing were inadequate. Mags can dish out a year's imprisonment for these offences, so it suggests that the riots will indeed be taken seriously.
I seem to remember that after the Southall riots, some offenders were given 10 years, much to their horror and that of their families. But no amount of political lobbying made any difference, and they had to serve their time. Well, half of it, anyway.
I was working in Southall at the time of the Riots and this old boy remembered the troubled times back in 1928 in Southall, he said if it was'nt the Jocks it was the Irish but it was soon sorted out, they just marched troops up from Hounslow barracks with bayonets fixed,
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I heard on the news today that they will be brought to court & sentenced quickly. Does that mean prison closures will be put on hold. The justice dept faces a 23% cut................
I just spoke with a friend who is a magistrate. Apparently the first tranche of prosecutions came up today. They mostly pleaded guilty, in the hope of a discharge or minor slap on the wrist. All were referred to higher courts, on the grounds that the magistrates' powers of sentencing were inadequate. Mags can dish out a year's imprisonment for these offences, so it suggests that the riots will indeed be taken seriously.
I seem to remember that after the Southall riots, some offenders were given 10 years, much to their horror and that of their families. But no amount of political lobbying made any difference, and they had to serve their time. Well, half of it, anyway.
Being sent to Crown does not guarantee a heavier sentence. Crown Courts also have 'not guilty' options, and use it often!
Not after you've already pleaded guilty, they don't. ;D
Watch, and learn. We hate civil unrest in England.
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It looks to have quietened down in London
What a great storey with loads of the community turning up in Clapham ot clear up
:o
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The reason the 2 young girls were rioting?
To show the Police that we can do what we want.
But - of course - we will expect immediate & selfless support should we be torched, robbed or raped..................??
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Might have quietened down for you Kev. I think they have all travelled up here. Our daughter is a nurse and after her long shift she had to walk through Redditch town center to get home She had to walk through a gang of youths who were gathering. She said she was terrrified.Redditch is usually a very quiet place.
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These people should be made to clear up themselves........... >:(
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Get the water cannons out and add some dye. Would soon sort em out
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I have heard we don't have any water cannons,they are in Ireland :o
The Army would sort them out,these kids think they are hard men ,lets see how they get on with that.
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I have heard we don't have any water cannons,they are in Ireland :o
The Army would sort them out,these kids think they are hard men ,lets see how they get on with that.
Great plan.. ::). Let's point the army at children. .. Then after that, maybe we can feed them into a mincer and make rioter sausages. :o
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: A 16-year-old looter from Manchester tells BBC 5 live he will continue participating in the violence and theft until he gets caught, because it is his first offence and nothing will happen.
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Great plan.. . Let's point the army at children. .. Then after that, maybe we can feed them into a mincer and make rioter sausages.
Posted by Nigel B.
From what I have seen on the tv, the rioters are not only children. they are people of all ages.
I would be very interested to learn what you would do with these rioters Nigel B. even if they were children
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I have heard we don't have any water cannons,they are in Ireland :o
The Army would sort them out,these kids think they are hard men ,lets see how they get on with that.
Great plan.. ::). Let's point the army at children. .. Then after that, maybe we can feed them into a mincer and make rioter sausages. :o
People are dead here in the Midlands............grow up.
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Went to the allotment yesterday to calm down and it was a beautiful day, but seeing all the smoke for the Sony warehouse depressed me so much, that the allotment did not have its usual appeal. Everyone in Enfield is so angry, why should we put up with this. Granddaughter has to go and pick up glasses today and dentist in Enfield town so now I am worried about that, and when they go back to school has to go through Enfield town, this should not be happening. People are going to protect their shops and houses and then one of the rioters will get hurt or killed, and the people protecting their homes will probably be arrested. Hope Kev is OK, so the video of the men walking the streets last night, good on them I say.
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I have heard we don't have any water cannons,they are in Ireland :o
The Army would sort them out,these kids think they are hard men ,lets see how they get on with that.
Great plan.. ::). Let's point the army at children. .. Then after that, maybe we can feed them into a mincer and make rioter sausages. :o
I am sorry Nigel, but there is no fear of consequences to actions in our children any more, they are brought up to not respect or listen to their parents (if they are threatened with discipline, they in turn threaten their parents with child services) if they are threatened with disciplin at school they get the teacher sacked, they can run riot all through their lives and all will happen is that someone will make an excuse for their behaviour, the excuse being, their surroundings, their upbringing. We all have choices in life and we have to accept responsibility for the choices we make.
I was not brought up in a "posh" area, in my youth and up to my thirties, i mixed with people in ponders end, edmonton and tottenham, i have heard what is said in those areas by the "disafected youth" and i chose not to bring up my children that way. If we keep indulging the feral behaviour what do we expect. I am sick of hearing parents (whom i know) say their child was a good boy, why did they send him to prison, it was a fix, when they knew he was a gangster, they knew he dealt crack to children, they knew that he was bad.
It is broken britain and the bleeding hearts and liberals (many of whom do not live in the areas affected - and if this was brought to the area they lived in you would hear different) should really stop the mollycoddling and start on the tough love. maybe they should read the winston smith blog and inspector gadget blog to find out what it is like in the real world
sorry for the rant, but i had spent many years in that world and chose to leave it.
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MY husband heard a mother talking to her mother on the phone on the bus on the way home on Monday night. she was saying to her mum that her son had been texted to say that it was all kicking off in LEwisham that night. He had decided to go down there for a "look". She knew it would be no look he would get involved but she said to her mum "what can I do I can't stop him!"
Parents are scared of their children.
My humble opinion is that we should bring back the cane in school, and be allowed to dish out appropriate discipline at home. Not I am not saying being thumped with slippers and child abuse. I'm saying appropriate discipline something that will make kids think twice about doing something again.
For those that have grown up in this lawless generation, what I would like to see is those who commit crimes like these to be sent to an army style boot camp prison to have some discipline and respect knocked into them, not just respect for others but the rescpect that they do not have for themsleves.
I know my iwshes are only a dream but hey we can dream of ways of putting things right cant we?
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In some ways, military service in France was not so bad, at least they maybe learnt some social skills. My husband did it and was appalled at the number of young lads his own age who could barely read and write. It makes you mix with people of different social spheres and opens your eyes a bit. Some of the lads used to go into the Army as they felt it was at least better than sitting around all day on the dole.
Maybe it would be a good thing, although do we want these thugs to be trained in the use of firearms and combat techniques? The 10km runs in the freezing rain and cleaning your own toilets were a good lesson in humility, it has to be said, and the sargeants showed you that there was always someone harder than yourself!
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Apparantly the Army’s emergency infantry battalion has been put on standby. Shame they cannot contract it out to the tough french riot police ;D
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http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html)
A friend pointed me in the direction of this excellent article.
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Well done your friend - there's some excellent stuff there!
= Tim
PS Quote -Re: Three vigilantes killed in Birmingham
by The clownfacer » 10 Aug 2011 09:26
The clownfacer wrote:It's not their fault,they are bored with nothing to do and no hope in life.
We've all got to take responsibility
That was the line that was trotted out yesterday by Youth Workers on Sky news
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These 3 young men were protecting their own and for that they died just because some mongrel thought it would be good to mount the pavement and mow them down.
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This is a terrible time for everyone in the riot torn places, Where are the parents of these children and young people? Shouldn't they be taking some of the blame and dragging their kids back to help clean up the mess?
They need to be stopped, I don't think they think of the consequences of their actions, either that or they're not bothered. Such a shame about the three people who were standing up . Don't know what else to say, hell in a hand cart comes to mind :-\ :'(
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I was watching the pics on TV of gangs of youths give the police the run around and then heard about the entire stock of a shop being looted. But the kids did not have armfuls of goods.
So we have organised burglary on the one hand while the police concentrate on sweeping up gangs of feral children.
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I have heard we don't have any water cannons,they are in Ireland :o
The Army would sort them out,these kids think they are hard men ,lets see how they get on with that.
Great plan.. ::). Let's point the army at children. .. Then after that, maybe we can feed them into a mincer and make rioter sausages. :o
People are dead here in the Midlands............grow up.
This from somebody that would answer violence with yet more violence and turn the Army on, I assume, other people's kids? You may do well to heed your own advice Betula.
Maybe volunteer to wo/man one of the many 'Clean up your neighbourhood' voluntary work-parties springing into existence. Maybe get to know some of these people and what their grievances are...... And yes, some of those rioting are just plain nasty thugs, but riots never happen spontaneously. They happen for a whole raft of reasons including social and economic.
Maybe we'd be better off turning the Army out to give the bankers and politicians a good seeing-to instead?
If all the kids see is Governments/Politicians stealing from us and making us pay back the cost of that theft, where are they to look for their role-models? To Joe Public bending and breaking under the strain of tax after tax as they watch their own future being spent on the interest payments of the debt they didn't create...?. Or how about the Politicians themselves? Those lying-to-your-face scum-bags that have dragged this Country's reputation right down to their own level as they steal with seeming impunity, let themselves off if they get caught, and still manage to get a foot aboard every outrage bus that does the rounds vilifying people for reacting to the crises' they did create?
What we're really seeing, of course, is the Government and the Police playing brinkmanship over the proposed cuts to the Police farce. The Government are saying you'll have to suck up, up to 20% in cuts, and the Police are saying, "Well if we are, this is what it'll be like."
And keep in mind, there have been NO CUTS to the Police so far.
Before we had a politicised Police force, we used to permit them to police us. "Policing by Consent" it was called. Now they just happen to have the best-equipped gang and are nothing more than a tool for the enforcement of government policy.
If we are to turn the Army out, turn them out to protect the Crown, and let the bankers and their political mates swing for the enormous amount of damage they are still doing to this Country! Then I'd settle for nothing less than heads on pikes at Traitor's Gate!
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Oh dear.. the news is continuing to be terrible, I was at dinner with friends last night and the chat about the riots was very sad, everyone there was really upset for you all and could not believe what they are now seeing on the TV, we had a small prayer meeting for you all..keep safe.
Sadly I don't think there is any quick answer to this. Mob violence is infectious, when we think back into history it has happened all over the world and it often came from seemingly OK folks..Crystal Night in Germany brings to mind. Once started it seems to release something in folks that keep the momentum going.
Even reading on here at some of the suggestions for dealing with it are a form of the same and I am deliberately not quoting anyone as their feelings are their own.
I have no magic words to offer as a means of stopping this or dealing with it either, whatever the reason these folks are doing what they do..is it for fun,profit,anger,thuggism we will we ever know.
It is simply terrible, beyond my reckoning. I will add however I would not favour anything that hurt the rioters in return otherwise I see that as joining in. I would however embrace any non violent measures to get them under control, and certainly they need to be accountable for what they have done when caught.
Somehow the whole thinking system is out of whack in the UK with so many people, there seems to be no pride, no commitment, no sense of community in so may folks, that has to be found and brought back to life. It used to be there, I remember it well.Someone a lot cleverer than I may have the answer at least I hope they will.
Stay safe friends, we are all thinking a lot about you over this side of the pond.
XX Jeannine
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What you say about the state of our country and what the bankers have done has affected us all but we are not all out there rioting
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Nigel,I am still trying to work out how a corrupt government and greedy bankers is an excuse for looting ,burning and taking the lives of others. ::)
I still say bring the Army in,though thankfully it seems to have calmed down now.I am not suggesting the Army kill these people but have no objection to them being roughed up a bit.
I was bought up on a Inner city Birmingham council estate,we had little more than our roof and food to eat but we stepped out into life determined to make a good life for ourselves and we did.It would not have occurred to any of us to behave in such a way as this.The kids who think they have nothing nowadays have no idea how hard life can really be and they seem to want it all handed them on a plate............save me the Bleeding hearts. >:(
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Betula, I agree with you, admittidly the plasma screen could be used to show education films and trainers may help the next olympic hopefuls....but going by some of the mugshots of the looters they don't look like our next generation of academics or sportsmen/women? it very very sad but on a plus note how fantastic are all the volunteers around the country helping clear up and getting businesses back on track...they are the real heros. :)
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There are so many points to be made that finding an answer to this mess is impossible. However one can't help feeling that if we got rid of all these 'experts', all lawyers, bankers, psychiatrists, thieving politicians, screen and sport 'stars', and all the rest - and replaced them all with normal people with common sense and a few simple powers we'd quickly have a working society.
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(http://i56.tinypic.com/2e379g8.jpg)
No excuses for this.
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If this is happening on your doorstep I think that your views on how you would cope with it will differ from someone who is living in total bliss in the country where everything is just swell.
A chap we saw last night on tv made me wonder. He said that we have allowed children to grow up too quickly and become adults when they cannot cope with the responsibilities that adults should have.Girls are getting pregnant at a very young age and very often have to bring these children up as single mothers.(children raising children).
Discipline went out of the window at home and in school so the kids don't have any self discipline or in some cases any self respect.
Its no good having a decent honest upbringing at home when the rest of the system is corrupt.
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I saw news yesterday that one of the rioters was a teaching assistant in Battersea. Now what kind of example is he setting to his pupils.
Thing is that everyone had thier own personal reason for looting, some may have huge chips of their shoulder to riot and loot, some may have seen it as a way of getting a new telly and new trainers. Non of it is justifiable.
The rioters in the diversity of people involved and being charged seem to each have had thier own agenda. Mostly driven by greed.
Perhaps they should all be sent to build schools and water wlls in third world countrys as their punishment so thta they can see there are people who dont have trainers and tellys, but live happily.
These people need some kind of short sharp shock and to be paying back in some way rather than us all paying £90,000 per criminal to be locked up in a cushy cell
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I don't read the Daily Fail (in fact I don't read any newspapers as there's not much truth to be found in them these days!) but I was pointed in the direction of this article which I found to be very interesting and quite accurate throughout. I know it will ruffle the feathers of a few on here but I feel it makes some points shared by many and not just at times like these. I'm not saying I agree with it 100% but there's definitely a lot of truth in there. I didn't copy and paste as it's quite a long piece.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html
Nice to see things are quietening down. Thank goodness for that.
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we who live in the country is just as disgusted with the riots as any one else who is living among it,( we feel for them)its mindless vandelision and greed is the fore front of their mind what ever way they want ti describe their actions we have our own opinion on which to deal with the offenders my 17 yr old grand daughter is also disgusted with the riots so not all teenagers support them there is all nationality's colours ages and sexes involved also classes its not just out of work youngest others have>got in the act>
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I don't read the Daily Fail (in fact I don't read any newspapers as there's not much truth to be found in them these days!) but I was pointed in the direction of this article which I found to be very interesting and quite accurate throughout. I know it will ruffle the feathers of a few on here but I feel it makes some points shared by many and not just at times like these. I'm not saying I agree with it 100% but there's definitely a lot of truth in there. I didn't copy and paste as it's quite a long piece.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html
Nice to see things are quietening down. Thank goodness for that.
Very interesting Sam
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If all that negative energy and anger were channelled into positive action how easy it would be to rebuild our country. This was not simply about areas of multiple deprivation but that was certainly a factor. Loads of the rioters and looters were there for what they could get but that, after all, is the message we get from government and the media as if, to be a worthwhile human being, all you need is money and "stuff".
I was particularly shocked .. or maybe not, maybe more concerned? .... by the responses on TV of some of the mothers." You treat them like scum so they behave like scum." There is more than an element of truth in that and yet it is not an excuse for the riots and looting.
For much of my teaching career I opted to work in what was described as an area of multiple deprivation. The key to success (I was teaching foreign languages) was building relationships and earning respect. Additionally over the years the school got funding for and built up relationships with a number of organisations that interacted with home, school and the world of work. The school changed dramatically over the time I was there (not just because of me I hasten to add but because of a bunch of like-minded colleagues who shared a belief in the children and their community). The school got more kids into employment or training than any other school in Edinburgh and had steadily improving exam results. By the time I retired we had above Edinburgh average exam results for languages which, given the area, was quite miraculous. I remember well the head teacher saying that he wished he could give the languages teachers a salary rise or a bonus he was so pleased with our results.
Subsequently much of the funding that allowed the school to give the children a key to escaping their deprivation has been pulled. When will they learn that it's not that simple? And how can for example footballers be paid £90,000 a week when there is no funding to allow these children some kind of opportunity.
But this was not simply about areas of multiple deprivation. Loads of the rioters and looters were there for what they could get. Materialistic, self-seeking, greedy people.
I scorn David Cameron's description of our sick society. Easy to criticise when you have huge personal wealth and will never need to worry about your or your family's future. If our society is indeed sick then it is because it has been allowed to become so by the greed of the politicians and the bankers putting their own personal gain above that of the people of this country.
We talk about third world countries. We criticise the regimes of other nations. It's time we looked in our own backyard and started caring for our own.
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I wore my brand new white tennis trainers to tennis yesterday (cost me £31 just before the riots), luckily I had kept the receipt and put it in my purse, one has to keep a sense of humour. They even stole jewellery from the Scratching Post (cat's charity shop), still went to Enfield yesterday and everyone seemed friendly and normal and it didn't seem too scary. Think they should get all the old people to help the police, the ones that have lived through the war, a kind of Dad's army, if we won the war I am sure we can get through this.
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http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/ (http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/)
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.....This from somebody that would answer violence with yet more violence and turn the Army on, I assume, other people's kids? You may do well to heed your own advice Betula.
...
....
If we are to turn the Army out, turn them out to protect the Crown, and let the bankers and their political mates swing for the enormous amount of damage they are still doing to this Country! Then I'd settle for nothing less than heads on pikes at Traitor's Gate!
So you're very happy to see murder done in the furtherance of your own political ends, just not those of other people.
'Nuff said.
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What a sickening site watching the feral scum robbing the young student from Malaysia when he was clearly distressed, hopefully when they arrest the scum bags it would nice to see them shipped off to Malaysia to stand trial and have some of the colonial justice we left behind, and looking at the parents of the kiddies that took part in the riots no wonder the country is going bloody mad, iv but, iv but,
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http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/ (http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/)
what a superb letter!!
well done for posting the link, Anne
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I think the question is why do these kids have absolutely no respect? Who has failed to teach them that people must live together in respect? That you care for other people's lives and belongings. That you have rights but duties too? That you can better yourself with education, and changing your scope, and that where you come from will never change but don't use it as an excuse.
Certainly there have been failures in policing methods etc but that is only part of the problem. There is a sad lack of moral fibre, for want of a better word. My parents used to live in Peckham, they had little and worked at menial jobs. But no other solution was available, they had 3 kids to raise and there were no handouts then. My mum was of the "you're never too poor to buy soap" generation and the flat was poky and cheap but clean, as were the kids and their clothes. Neither of my parents went to high school, my mother was a mother at nineteen, but their kids were polite, respectful and they knew that if they played up, there would be hell to pay.
Why has this changed? When did people stop being ashamed of behaving like slobs?
And in some ways I feel disappointed to think like this, as I consider myself a liberal, tolerant person, I feel like it's very old fashioned! My kids are not angels but they are polite to others, go to school, do chores at home and get punished when they play up (even if it's not with the belt like my dad would have done!). We eat meals as a family and do activities together. Even you're broke, you can talk your kids for long walks or play in the park with them!
It's as if we wanted to be progressive, and do things differently but it has all blown up in our faces.
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Well I hope all the talk from government is not just spouting off as usual. Take their social housing away including the parents of the looters, good move. Not being tied by the loony human rights if the bleeding hearts mob start shouting. Another good move. I would have been tempted to vote for them next time, but the emergency parliament meeting had to sort out their mates investments, debating the fiscal situation first. ???
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG-XWBVdonQ&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG-XWBVdonQ&NR=1)
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Sheep everywhere ;D ;D ;D. I have been wondering over the last few days why there hasn't been any trouble in Scotland ;).
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What a welcome home for you Kev, and poor Borlotti. I do hope things calm down . I would feel like you Borlotti, wanting to have go but there are far too many of them to take on.. Best place is inside looking after Charlie
One of my sons was sent to Manchester last night but told no one he was going not even his wife tazz
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Interesting chap on R4 just now - an expert on crowd/mob behaviour. He was saying how hard it was at the moment to have an intelligent discussion about how to stop it happening again - because people aren't able to make the distinction between understanding something & justifying it. Whatever is done - whether you hang 'em & flog 'em or let them all go free, or something in between, that in itself won't stop it from happening again.
Despite what some may think, watching the news and talking to your mates about it doesn't make you an expert, and neither does being an award winning, exceptionally good gardener. As long as we have the same underlying social factors, this type of thing is likely to become more common. It is not because of woolly liberalism or any other single factor, and however disgusting you or I or anyone else may find it, our disgust won't stop it happening again.
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I don't read the Daily Fail (in fact I don't read any newspapers as there's not much truth to be found in them these days!) but I was pointed in the direction of this article which I found to be very interesting and quite accurate throughout. I know it will ruffle the feathers of a few on here but I feel it makes some points shared by many and not just at times like these. I'm not saying I agree with it 100% but there's definitely a lot of truth in there. I didn't copy and paste as it's quite a long piece.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html
Nice to see things are quietening down. Thank goodness for that.
Now im going to chuck my twopennorth in.
That article is spot on, and its what ive been saying for 15 years,.
If you want someone to blame, Harriet Harman is the one to point the finger at. She is the High Priestess of neoliberal politically correct militant feminism.
As the article says, she has spent her entire life leading the movement to dismantle the english nation, english culture and the english poeple.
The weapon she used is Political Correctness. 99% of people DO NOT UNDERSTAND the true nature of political correctness. Let me elucidate you all.
ln the days following the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, it was believed that workers’ revolution would sweep into Europe and, eventually, into the United States. But it did not do so. Towards the end of 1922 the Communist International (Comintern) began to consider what were the reasons. On Lenin’s initiative a meeting was organised at the Marx-Engels Institute in Moscow, which became known as The Frankfurt School. The aim of the meeting was to clarify the concept of, and give concrete effect to, a Marxist cultural revolution. Make a note of that phrase, its key.
The short version goes they came to the conclusion the Glorious Revolution had not swept through europe because people wernt miserable and annoyed enough. So, they pondered, how do we make them so ?
Basically, the Frankfurt School believed that as long as an individual had the belief - or even the hope of belief - that his divine gift of reason could solve the problems facing society, then that society would never reach the state of hopelessness and alienation that they considered necessary to provoke socialist revolution. Their task, therefore, was as swiftly as possible to undermine the Judaeo-Christian legacy. To do this they called for the most negative destructive criticism possible of every sphere of life which would be designed to de-stabilize society and bring down what they saw as the ‘oppressive’ order. Their policies, they hoped, would spread like a virus—‘continuing the work of the Western Marxists by other means’ as one of their members noted.
To further the advance of their cultural revolution the School recommended (among other things):
1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family
One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freud’s idea of ‘pansexualism’ - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:
• attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
• abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
• abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
• declare women to be an ‘oppressed class’ and men as ‘oppressors’
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt School’s long-term operation thus: ‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'
Of course, the original reasons for PC have long gone, but other insidious bodies intent on corrupting and destroying our soceity so they can take it over are still operating. The prime one is the EU, and there plane to destroy the nation states of Europe to form the United States of Europe.
Now look at that numbered list. Looks familiar? Think back, thats exactly what Nu Labour practiced as Labour policy for 14 years while they were in office. They used Political Correctness to corrupt and destroy us because the looney left federalists want to cause collapse so they can see us rise from the ashes as the Eu superstate.
And this is the insidious thing about political correctness, it PRETENDS to be about offending no one, whilst planting the seeds we saw come into fruition the last three nights.
SO ultimately, PC is the enemy within we need to destroy, to challenge and to eradicate. I challenge anyone using PC, and enlighten them, and ask them why they seek the corruption and destruction of our society. Many of them,. one enlightened as to what its about, start to think twice about it.
Oh and if you voted Labour at any point in the last 15 years, then you are partially to blame for putting the evil pregnant dog Harman into power. I consider her one of the top three most dangerous enemies of this nation, along with Hitler and Bin laden.
Sorry, long post, pet subject of mine. 8)
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Nigel,I am still trying to work out how a corrupt government and greedy bankers is an excuse for looting ,burning and taking the lives of others. ::)
Then read a little of our recent history Betula. While I absolutely do not condone the hugely sad loss of life that occurred, civil disturbance does make these things happen. And remember, despite the outrage at these 'kids' the media has managed to raise, they are not ALL kids. Not by a long way. I saw plenty of white middle-aged people in the riots early on, and some of them lying on the pavement having been detained. Young AND old of all races and creeds.
There is plenty to protest about in this Country... Unless of course you are happy to settle for a life lived under crooks and hypocrites who will steal from your directly AND make you refill the pot they stole from.....
Remember that horrible waste of flesh, Harriet Harmon who, after being caught red-bloody handed stealing from the Nation, sat in her office waving a cheque saying it was an error and she was going to pay it back.....?
Now then. If YOU had deliberately stolen that money, do you think YOU'D be allowed to simply offer to pay it back? No, nor me. And this woman still sits in The Commons doing her best to dismantle democracy in favour of a surveillance state, a police state, a state where every journey is logged, every purchase logged. Every bus journey, every walk, watched and recorded...... Just in case they act like her and steal or commit other crimes equal to the rioting. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-boris-johnson)..... Smashing up restaurants and crockery as other terrified diners looked on... Oh yes! Our glorious leaders were doing the very same things, in their 20's I might add, as the twelve-year olds they want lock up with their parents now!
These are the kids' role-models? And also remember who is guilty of putting these people into power.... Do you vote Betula? Then you are.
I was bought up on a Inner city Birmingham council estate,we had little more than our roof and food to eat but we stepped out into life determined to make a good life for ourselves and we did.It would not have occurred to any of us to behave in such a way as this.The kids who think they have nothing nowadays have no idea how hard life can really be and they seem to want it all handed them on a plate............save me the Bleeding hearts. >:(
Oh I think they do. I'm in my 50's now and I'd HATE to be a kid today. Bleeding hearts nothing, try brutalised and disenfranchised youth without ever a hope of bettering themselves....
I still say bring the Army in,though thankfully it seems to have calmed down now.I am not suggesting the Army kill these people but have no objection to them being roughed up a bit.
'Roughed up a bit'? Is that what you think the army do Betula? I was in the Army in the early 70's. Saw plenty of rioting thanks. And if anyone got themselves 'roughed up', they were lucky.
If we are to turn the Army out, turn them out to protect the Crown, and let the bankers and their political mates swing for the enormous amount of damage they are still doing to this Country! Then I'd settle for nothing less than heads on pikes at Traitor's Gate!
Melbourne12:
So you're very happy to see murder done in the furtherance of your own political ends, just not those of other people.
'Nuff said.
My concern is for Democracy itself Melbourne12, not just which party to put into power. The Nation does that by a free and fair vote.
Besides, this Country was born of revolution after revolution, fight after fight. Occasionally, we need to 'reset' the Democratic movement back to it's basic functions so the greedy and corrupt are either brought to justice or expelled to where they can no longer harm the Nation.
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My concern is for Democracy itself Melbourne12, not just which party to put into power. The Nation does that by a free and fair vote.
Besides, this Country was born of revolution after revolution, fight after fight. Occasionally, we need to 'reset' the Democratic movement back to it's basic functions so the greedy and corrupt are either brought to justice or expelled to where they can no longer harm the Nation.
You ARE aware that the Lisbon treaty put in place powers for the EU to entirely quash all democracy in the is and every other european nation. At any point it chooses it can 1. declare all political parties except the ones it chooses as illegal. 2. declare all national elections illegal and 3. close down parliament. The Lisbon Treaty even made it illegal to oppose the EU, as Marta Andreasen found out
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1568852/Sacked-EU-whistleblower-loses-claim.html
In 2005 Labour also passed a pernicious piece of legislation called the Civil Contingencies Act whiich gives the government all sort of appalling powers to walk all over your civil liberties, including siezing you house or business, and compelling you or banning you from living in specified places - for example, they can order you to live in Hastings, or ban you from entering the West Midlands, no court order required. It also allows them to impose curfews and require you to attend police stations or place you under house arrest. They havent wheeled this power out yet, i suspect there saving it for when the riots occur when we are forcibly annexed into the EU Superstate.
The most important step required to regain control of our country, and restore it back to its former glory is to seize control of it back from the evil EU, whose only intent for us is our complete destruction and integration into a EU superstate by means of imposing political correctness on us (see my previous post), where we will be a minority of 60 million, and our fate in the hands of 450 million of our former historic enemies, and lets face it, you have to be mentally retarded to imagine they are going to work in the best interests of our country - we've seen the Eu and its members such as France and Germany in action over the years in respect of the way they treat us.
BTW, the server is taking a long time to respond to edits and posts, there either doing maintenance on it, a backup, or its about to go tits up.
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Pictures of the smoke from the warehouse that was burnt in Enfield. I thought it was going to rain, when I was at the allotment until I was told it was smoke, at least they can't moan if I light a bonfire. Second picture from Enfield playing fields which is next to our allotments.
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we only seem to get this kind of trouble when a conservative gov is in power
Possibly because they are left with the miserable job of clearing up after the previous defunct labour administration. >:( >:(
valmarg
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we only seem to get this kind of trouble when a conservative gov is in power
Possibly because they are left with the miserable job of clearing up after the previous defunct labour administration. >:( >:(
valmarg
I'll give a virtual-fiver to the first one that can get a ciggy-paper between any of their policies in the long run as far as we're concerned.
lincsyokel2. Mate, I can't argue with a word of what you said...
Oh... And Nick Clegg.. Another pillar of our society. ....
Nick Clegg gets asked about his arson conviction. 11/08/2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ueBCWaWNcY&feature=share)
Unbelievable! ::)
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The Nick Clegg thing - he burned a few cacti (one at a time) as a drunk teenager. His punishment was to repay the professor (owner of the collection) by doing hard graft in the baking sun and finding the best replacements they could, with his mother, driving all over the country to other specialist collections. If people can't see the difference then frankly they're a bit dim.
You can dislike Nick Clegg for many things (I have a long list, in fact) but being a bit silly as a child, and losing all sense of social responsibility, looting, smashing stuff & fighting with the police are entirely different.
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arson comes easy to Nick Clegg. burning all those Lib Dem manifestos last May
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The Nick Clegg thing - he burned a few cacti (one at a time) as a drunk teenager. His punishment was to repay the professor (owner of the collection) by doing hard graft in the baking sun and finding the best replacements they could, with his mother, driving all over the country to other specialist collections. If people can't see the difference then frankly they're a bit dim.
You can dislike Nick Clegg for many things (I have a long list, in fact) but being a bit silly as a child, and losing all sense of social responsibility, looting, smashing stuff & fighting with the police are entirely different.
'As a child' ;D..... Clegg wants to jail twelve-year-olds, and their parents, for doing just what he did as a drunken 'teenager' in his 20's. ..... And just because his parents can afford to jolly him around the country buying replacement cacti, doesn't make him any less guilty of arson!
I would also refute the suggestion I am a bit dim, based purely on Clegg's criminal record.
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I thought he was 16? And Clegg doesn't have a criminal record.
I didn't see that Clegg wants to jail the parents - and I'm a bit surprised to hear this...
Finally, to help you see the difference:
Case 1.
Rioting, looting, hundreds of millions of pounds in damage, lives in danger, people killed, parents who are indifferent.
Case 2.
A few cacti in a family friend's greenhouse. Parents get involved & make you make amends.
If you think these two cases are comparable, then yes, you are a bit dim, sorry. :-*
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I thought he was 16? And Clegg doesn't have a criminal record.
I didn't see that Clegg wants to jail the parents - and I'm a bit surprised to hear this...
Finally, to help you see the difference:
Case 1.
Rioting, looting, hundreds of millions of pounds in damage, lives in danger, people killed, parents who are indifferent.
Case 2.
A few cacti in a family friend's greenhouse. Parents get involved & make you make amends.
If you think these two cases are comparable, then yes, you are a bit dim, sorry. :-*
You're probably right..... Fancy me comparing a young arsonist with a young arsonist..... ::)
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To sort these little shits out bring back, Approved Schools, Detention Centres and Borstals, and if that don't work send them to me at 'Mr Smiths Bad Lads Army', you little *fatherless children* you need a fackin good all round kickin off an old hairy arse squaddie, :)
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Mr smith ,Love your style,can't stop laughing,at the hair arse bit what a hoot.
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I thought he was 16? And Clegg doesn't have a criminal record.
I didn't see that Clegg wants to jail the parents - and I'm a bit surprised to hear this...
Finally, to help you see the difference:
Case 1.
Rioting, looting, hundreds of millions of pounds in damage, lives in danger, people killed, parents who are indifferent.
Case 2.
A few cacti in a family friend's greenhouse. Parents get involved & make you make amends.
If you think these two cases are comparable, then yes, you are a bit dim, sorry. :-*
You're probably right..... Fancy me comparing a young arsonist with a young arsonist..... ::)
Nigel, it's been bugging me this (my response to you) - I don't think you're "a bit dim" & it was an inappropriate choice of phrase. I was with a bunch of Lib Dems last night discussing, amongst other things, Nick Clegg and his plant burning days. A close friend & active Lib Dem told me I'm the one who's being a bit dim, so that's me told :-X
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Nigel, it's been bugging me this (my response to you) - I don't think you're "a bit dim" & it was an inappropriate choice of phrase. I was with a bunch of Lib Dems last night discussing, amongst other things, Nick Clegg and his plant burning days. A close friend & active Lib Dem told me I'm the one who's being a bit dim, so that's me told :-X
Well blimey! ;) Thanks Ollie. ...
Still on the subject of our lawless leaders. Ever heard of The Bullingdon Dining Club?
"The Bullingdon modus operandi is to book a restaurant under a false name, smash it up, and throw large amounts of money at the upset owners — a form of behaviour which dates back to Victorian times."
Care to guess who have been active members? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542634/Cameron-as-leader-of-the-Slightly-Silly-Party.html)
These same people are calling for jail time for kids that were doing what they've been doing for years........Except these rich yobs were able to throw enough of daddy's money at people that enabled them to escape the law!
We need a thorough clean-out of our corrupt and dishonest politicians. From top to bottom.
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Oh well then thats all right then Nigel. >:(
Lets loot,burn and kill because a few upper class idiots carried on the old tradition. :o
I agree with you that the Mps who robbed the tax payer should have faced court
but The Burlington antics were well publicised before the election and they still got in ...............
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Oh well then thats all right then Nigel. >:(
Lets loot,burn and kill because a few upper class idiots carried on the old tradition. :o
I agree with you that the Mps who robbed the tax payer should have faced court
but The Burlington antics were well publicised before the election and they still got in ...............
The point I was trying to make to you Betula, is that violence only begets violence. To want to turn the Army on these people would be the very last option, one would hope, and only if the security of the Country itself was at stake.
The Burlington 'antics' were just the same as what went on last week.... Frightened diners watching out-of-control organised gangs smashing places up. The ONLY difference is that our glorious leaders had enough money to avoid incarceration.
That in itself demonstrates one of the differences between the haves and the have-not's. Do you see?
I'm not condoning rioting as such, but the reasons behind it are complex. If we don't understand what they are we are condemned to suffer riot after riot until we do..... One thing is certain though, violence is not the answer.
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The reasons behind it Nigel are that thieves saw a great opportunity to grab what they want.They thought they could get away with it and saw no harm in burning and killing along the way.
I don't think The Police should have to face that level of violence and I still think it was a job for the Army.
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The reasons behind it Nigel are that thieves saw a great opportunity to grab what they want.They thought they could get away with it and saw no harm in burning and killing along the way.
I don't think The Police should have to face that level of violence and I still think it was a job for the Army.
The subject of police and violence is also complex. You saw, I assume, how they treated our kids during the uni fees protests, yes? Innocent kids beaten and kettled, sometimes with the parents that had come to collect them. Kids were beaten, some very badly, for expressing their frustration at the cost of their education. The police response was way over the top considering we are supposed to be a democracy where freedom of expression is one of the values we are supposed to hold dear.... and if they can hand out that level of violence, they can d**n well take it.
The thieves now being processed in court are the laggers, the slow of foot and wit that arrived late and got caught when the police finally decided the government was taking notice. The real instigators had moved on ages before, realising the police would only stand and watch for so long.
What's wrong here is not just a bunch of bad kids, but a system that has for the last fifteen years or so created no-go ghettos, a system of crime and no punishment, a lack of work and no prospects of ever getting any, and a legal system that is clearly split into two... One part for the haves, and one for the have-not's.
We have gone, almost overnight, from a country with a welfare system that was the envy of the civilised world, to the threat of water-cannon and baton rounds on the streets, and the disruption of the mobile networks to disallow communication between innocent and guilty alike.
In fact, all the things we try to change in regimes in other countries such as Lybia, Syria etc. Would you like to start shooting rioters Betula? That's what the army does.
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The thieves now being processed in court are the laggers, the slow of foot and wit that arrived late and got caught when the police finally decided the government was taking notice. The real instigators had moved on ages before, realising the police would only stand and watch for so long.
I agree with that statement.
They caught a young girl with a waste paper bin, that is sad, only copying. I expect, as you say, the real instigators will get away with it.
I don't know the answer, only know that they scared the s..t out of me and I don't scare that easily. After they set light to the rubbish and nearly caught the car alight and were all outside my house I couldn't sleep that night and was worried about the safety of the grandchildren, who are on school holidays and don't want them to go to Enfield town, although it seems to be very quiet now.
I would have felt safer when I had Basil Brush (my alastian/cross dog). He was a softie really, but the dustman wouldn't come as they said I had a pack of wild dogs in my house, and we were never burgled until after he died. Good excuse to get a dog, but can't whilst still have the old cat.
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Why are you making excuses for them Nigel?
Nothing you have said to me excuses what went on.
A lot of them were picked up on film evidence not just some being able to run quicker.
I am not getting into political debate with you as you are trying to excuse the inexcusable.
I think our Army are skilled enough to deal with them without using a gun.
Enough said.
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This is the tough decision time, and I do hope those in power have the wisdom to make the right choices, because what they do now can influence a whole generation and either bring people together or tear them apart.
The so called riots seem to me very complex and you can't label everyone with the same brush. There seems to have been organised gangs looting, evil trouble makers just out to get the boot in, and opportunist teenagers jumping on the band wagon, (for whatever reason) to name but a few.
So in my eyes there is not one simple solution to solve these problem.
People must be made to pay for their crimes, but a group of people don't just come together to cause havoc unless something is flawed in society. Is it the celebrity culture we have been breeding for the last ten years. that wants fame and possessions now, or the lack of ethics by those in power or the banks doing their own form of anarchy and seeming to get away with it? Whatever or whoever, I do hope David Cameron doesn't just punish those disenfranchised people who live in the council estates but looks at the wider questions. busy_lizzie
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Rather than start a new thread, I'd just like to say that personally I feel that there seems to be a lot of inconsistency in the court sentences taking place!
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Rather than start a new thread, I'd just like to say that personally I feel that there seems to be a lot of inconsistency in the court sentences taking place!
Well its not so much inconsistency, its just that they changed the rules halfway through, so the initial lot got off lightly compared to the ones sentenced after change in rules.
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A lot will seem inconsistent because we only know the end result not all the factors like previous convictions.
They can be tough as they like so far as I'm concerned and keep it up from now on.I'm fed up of reading about a small number of rubbish people making life a misery for all around them.
But the bleeding hearts are coming out of the woodwork now and the lawyers are rubbing their hands at all the money they'll be making with apppeals so we'll soon be back to soppy 'not their fault' Britain.
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Yeah, I'm fed up with bleeding hearts like Prince Charles trying to look for ways to stop it happening again.
A mob attacking the families of the rioters and imposing disproportionate sentences is as bad as what the rioters did. Punish the criminals if it makes you feel better, and punish them severely if you think it helps, but cases like the one in Wandsworth, where an 8 year old girl will be made homeless for something her brother did, are pretty disgusting too.
There's a petition here if you're interested:
http://www.change.org/petitions/wandsworth-borough-council-tell-wandsworth-council-not-to-punish-innocent-people
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The so called riots
blimey, I thought i was a bit of a wishy washy leftie
what about the so called Polar Bear attack?
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Perhaps the eight year old will have better parenting than her brother had now.
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I am all for very tough punishment but I am at a loss to see how this will do anything useful.
Maybe they think that parents will be more inclined to control their kids actions in future.
However if this is the way it is going to be how about people who own their own property or live with parents that do having their homes compulsory purchased......... ;D
Lets keep things fair now :o
No ,lets stick to punishing the criminals.
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My understanding is that thousands are on the waiting list for social housing so what's wrong with replacing a problem family with a decent one?
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The so called riots
blimey, I thought i was a bit of a wishy washy leftie
what about the so called Polar Bear attack?
I read this in an other way. To me a riot is when someone with a "Cause" starts to do damage, such as a demonstration which turns violent.
This was just looting and theft with no cause other than to cause trouble and obtain consumer goods???
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My understanding is that thousands are on the waiting list for social housing so what's wrong with replacing a problem family with a decent one?
I agree. Social housing is supposed to be provided for those in need. Its not a right, its a privilege to get one. So if you abuse it you shoudl be out. Similarly, if you can clearly afford to pay a mortgage, you shoudl be evicted - peopel who win millions on the lottery and continue to occupy a council house when they can now clearly afford to buy one shoud lalso be evicted - or be made to buy the council house at market value no discount, and a replacement house built with the money so a family in need can be housed.
It all comes down to the 'rights without responsibility' crap weve been foisted with by the looney left human rights cretins. These people go out there way to enforce 'rights', but say nothing of responsibility. This is why animal rights is complete rubbish. Animals cant take responsibilities for rights, so cant therefore have rights. They dont even understand the concept. What there IS, however, is 'obligation' We have an obligation, as part of the rights we have (which we have beacuse we can take responsibility for those rights) of not being cruel to animals. Ditto children. Children cant have rights, they are too young to take responsibility, so we have an obligation to ensure the well being of kids.
We need to introduce and enforce responsibility and obligation on all those with 'rights', or remove those rights.
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looney left human rights cretins.
Hi, I think I might be one of them.
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Hi, I think I might be one of them.
Not sure yet then.
I know nothing about this family who are being evicted apart from one of them is a suspected rioter/looter. They might have been on their last warning, until we know I would urge people not to sign some looney left, human rights petition.
All of these troubles could have been stopped in an instant if the police had followed the lines we had to use to quell riots when I was serving queen and country, looking after her commonwealth
We would march to the disturbance and the officer would read the riot act. Then we would place a rope across the road and he would tell the demonstrators that the first person to cross the line would be shot. There was always one who did not believe we would, but the rest of them did and they usually went home.
If we still had this method it I would not be listening to the news about 3 dead in Birmingham, another dead in London, people being burned out of their homes, others not being able to work.Also nobody need be evicted. We could all then go about safely about our business and the looney left could decorate the spot with flowers to ease their conciences.
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Personally I can't take anyone seriously when they use tired old cliches like the "looney left".
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Personally I can't take anyone seriously when they use tired old cliches like the "looney left".
Just think of the shite we would be in now if they had got in. About the only thing we can be thankful to the falklands war for. If we hadn't all got patriotic and voted the old bag back in we would have been stuck with this.
(http://www.jeremyjacobs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Foot_Centph_DonkeyJacket_1981.jpg)
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d**n you Ace - You had to bring back Footie. A point well made!! A loverly chap by all acounts but...
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You'd possibly be surprised (if not indifferent) at how unsympathetic I am to those who broke the law during the riots. I believe we are all accountable for the actions that we freely take, and I don't think you can just blame the parents or the education system or anyone else. Right & wrong are very basic, deep-down instincts.
The looters did the looting, not society, not the education system and not the parents. I believe people should be rewarded for their contribution to society and penalised for damaging it. I just happen to think there is also a wider debate about stopping it from happening again, and I believe in the fair, consistent application of law.
Here's something rather good from an urban yoof. Considerably more positive than the "we riot because we have no role models" bunch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjvUMr1-AAU
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Watching the scenes from last week (again) seems to have slipped from peoples minds by some of the posts on here, we had on the streets of this country wild uncontrolled thugs mainly Black with White trash thrown in old and young, it reminded me and also gave me cold shivers of my days when I faced nuts like this over the water but we did have 'our way' of doing things, I totally support the sentences being dished out and also if the authorities think it fit to throw out a family from not their council accommodation but the boroughs because they have an uncontrolled misfit in their family then that's OK by me, it makes me wonder why some posters don't just shove off from this country to North Korea or Rhodesia and see how their lefty views go down there, :)
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Here's something rather good from an urban yoof. Considerably more positive than the "we riot because we have no role models" bunch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjvUMr1-AAU
good link Ollie, thanks for introducing me to another gifted band with relevant lyrics.
Tony ;)
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Personally I can't take anyone seriously when they use tired old cliches like the "looney left".
I can stand it when the loony left try and suppress debate by beating people into silence using the aged cultural marxist techniques of just shouting 'RACIST' at anyone who disagrees with them, or using Political Correctness to stop you expressing your freedom of will and expression. Its particularly rife still on internet forums, especially when you voice the opinion we should tell the Eu to stick there superstate, close the borders and start throwing out foriegners.....
You DO know where Political Correctness comes from and what its about? If not google 'frankfurt school'. You'll be horrified at what this primary weapon of the looney left, led by Harriet Harman, is really about.
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looney left human rights cretins.
Hi, I think I might be one of them.
I might have to join you LY2 looks ready to join my ignore list... which has only one person on it so far...
no prizes for guessing who... :-X
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I did note today that the woman who got jailed for 6 months for recieving a pair of stolen shorts has successfully appealed the sentence which has been commuted to 75hours community service. She wasn't actually part of the riots so I can see why she might be given a break.
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mmm, thread is getting a bit uncomfortable now.
XX Jeannine
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No. It's not.
Anyone who doesn't like the topic doesn't have to read the thread.
Anyone who finds a particular poster winds them up, hit the Ignore button.
Debate is fine provided it doesn't descend into personal attack or break the forum rules.
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It is uncomforable for me, but we sometimes need this in our lives .
All debates can become uncomfortable, it is not a critisism purely an observation that people feel very strongly about what they are saying..that is passion and passion is good .
Without passion nothing changes in the world and debates about change can be uncomfortable,
XX Jeannine
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I was really quite shocked when I read about the lady who was jailed for receiving a pair of stolen shorts.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm very much a part of the 'jail them, fine them, stick them in orange jumpsuits and send them off to clear up the mess and let everybody know what they've done, take it out of their benefits' brigade but ... come on, common sense has to come in to it somewhere??
As far as the evictions go ... well, it's sort of a situation, isn't it? On the one hand it's true that they obviously think nothing of their neighbourhood to do what they did so therefore what's the issue with making them leave it but on the other hand ... it's a family home. Again, common sense. An entire family out on the street because of one person? A family who will then have to go into private housing and cost the taxpayer even more due to such high rents that will be claimed via benefits? I don't feel that's a sensible solution. I understand perfectly why the councils feel the way they do but it's not really feasible.
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Sam, when I was working in the UK I was involved with several families facing eviction for family members with anti social behaviour. I went to court with 4 of them who did in fact get put out, but before it came to that they had been helped by many many organisations for years to turn themselves around, in all 4 situations it was really bad, unbelievable almost what had happened, so I know first hand that it is not a situation taking even remotely lightly.
Before it came to eviction they had had a couple of year long probation tenancies, financial help to get kids to school who ran off, a brand new Mercedes people carrier was given to one family because Dad was repeatedly called to school. free family holidays..other stuff that would blow your mind.
I am not on the side of eviction or not but do know it is the very last thing that happens and of course when they become homeless someone has to rehouse them.
In all the cases I was involved with their were countless acts of theft, vandalism, ASBO's and hundreds of validated neighbours complaints so I think there has to be much more to this than we are seeing.
XX Jeannine
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A business I have links to has a number of tenants who have been evicted by the local authority or housing association. I agree that, on the whole, there has been a long history of problems before people are evicted. It is up to organisation like ours (barely profit making, not taking deposits and constantly getting our stuff smashed up or stolen) to house these people. There are less landlords prepared to take this type of tenant, and since the coalition has decided to massively cut the rent for under 35's, the situation is going to get much worse.
Jeannine, I'm afraid you're wrong - Wandsworth's motives are political. They have said that the eviction proceedings are due to involvement in the riots, and no article I can find, even in The Daily Mail, has mentioned a history of problems.
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The other problem is that in some cases they are simply shifting poor tenants onto the private sector who simply do not have the facilities to cope with them. If they do not pay the rent and trash the premises there is not much redress since they have no money.
I do not think it is right to punish one person for something someone else has done. It is no joke if you have a family running wild on a regular basis round a neighbourhood. Maybe the timing is politically motovated. But I expect that this is just the last straw in some cases.
I have personal experiience of one such family and the entire neighbourhood was gunning for them. They could have produced a very sweet pic of several seemingly charming children who in reality were a total nighmare. When they left their let there was excrement shoulder high on the walls, every bit of furniture had been trashed, most of the door pulled off their hinges and every wall needed repainting after only 9 months. They claimed housing benefit but did not pay the rent after the initial six months. Knowing of them I certainly will not shed any crocodile tears.
Interestingly I have seen little news about cases involving the more extreme behaviour.
While we are hearing about one pair of shorts or a bottle of water, the stock of whole shops disappeared.
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I do not think it is right to punish one person for something someone else has done. It is no joke if you have a family running wild on a regular basis round a neighbourhood. Maybe the timing is politically motovated. But I expect that this is just the last straw in some cases.
If its your kids then you are responsible. I tire of fat ignorant uneducated f*g-smoking single female white trash standing on the doorstep of there council house saying they cant control there kids and so its not there fault the kids are uncontrollable, because thats the crux of the problem, the abdication of personal responsibilty, encouraged by the human rights brigade and the political correct agenda of Harriet Harmans looney left brigade, intent on the destruction of our society so they can introduce some sort of cultural marxist paradise.
The whole problem has been the relentless push of 'rights', but without accompanying them with 'responsibility' or 'obligation'. You must have all three, and the riots are the result of teaching our kids for 15 years that you can have the first one without the other two.
Anyone who gets prosecuted for causing damage or stealing, or gets thrown out there house because there kids or there partner or there relative was a thief and a rioter has only themselves to blame, its time people were made to take personal respoinsibility for ther own actions, and to care what there friends or relatives are up to. Society has to work together as a team to work at all, otherwise it everyone for themselves and the survival of the fittest. And we have to disapprove and deal with rioters and thieves as a society, not just leave them to the courts.
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I know a lot of people who live in council houses and they are decent hard working people..........ignorant.
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to LY2
have a listen to this parent talking about her wayward teenager
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b013f7h1#synopsis
hardly fits your description does it?
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I worked at a school in England right in the middle of a very deprived estate where there was lots of trouble and lots of folks not working, the vast majority tried very hard to get jobs which just where not out there. My job took me into the homes of these folks.
MOST WERE DECENT PEOPLE CAUGHT UP IN A BAD SITIUATION, THEY WERE RESPECTABLE GOOD PARENTS..
However even with all the best parenting there were families that had troubled kids.. I taught parenting classes, did tons of home visits, had willing loving parents and still some kids got into trouble.
YOU CANNOT BLAME PARENtS FOR EVERYTHING..YOU CANNOT..AS BETULA SAID IT IS IGNORANT TO SAY THAT.
XX Jeannine
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I work in the public sector, with some of the most deprived families...and also with the so called middle and upper classes.
Some people do a cracking job of parenting...irrespective of their background, marital status and financial situation. Some of the worst, foul mouthed, aggressive youngsters I've encountered are from privileged/middle of the road backgrounds. Others are from less well off families.
Of these aggressive kids, some you can see a link to parenting...others the family approaches and other siblings are fab.......so who are we to say it is always nurture not nature???
I do get very frustrated that their are families who are given every support and opportunity who don't give a d**n about their kids and what they may do...some even comment on " its your job to support us"
Others try their best but drug dealers/peer pressure gets to their kids.
So I have mixed feelings re sanctions that affect the whole family...but strongly feel it should apply to some and not others.
Personally I don't think that makes me a liberal lefty whatever...just that accountability should be based on evidence and not sweeping generalisation/categories according to where you live/what you look like/who you sleep with and if they are married to you or not.
To those who are found to be persistent/lax...I'd throw strong accountability at them.
I also think buying stolen goods should carry heavy sanctions...not linked to value. Theft is theft. Receiving shorts is theft, Its not the case of stealing to feed yourself. If people didn't buy stuff that dropped off the back of a lorry then there would be less theft.
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Good post Hector.
However, I'm getting pretty weary of this thread. If anyone else FEELS THE NEED TO YELL or to argue the person rather than the point, the thread is going to the virtual recycling plant in cyberspace where the bits and bytes will get chewed up and spat out to be re-used on happier subjects.