Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => Allotment Movement => Topic started by: tony69 on July 31, 2011, 11:36:26
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An old man leased the site and as people left he took over the whole site and wouldn’t let anyone back on, he eventually had the whole allotment site and then retired, and his son took over the lease from the council and cleared it all up and was told by the council he had to rent the plots out. There are approximately 15 plots but only 10 gardeners including the leasee due to people having more than one plot.
We paid £20 for a year’s rent and got a receipt, we didn’t know we had to have anything else like tenancy agreements or constitutions as we have never gardened away from home before. We were extremely happy to get the plot in the first place and were the first growers on there except for the now chairman. We live quite a distance from the plot and only go up every other day now it’s sorted and just needs tending.
All was well and everything was growing nicely when I went up one day and saw 3 people (the leasee and 2 gardeners) in the back of a van, one of the gardeners was reading out rules and the others were saying Yes or No, I approached and asked them what they were doing and they said they were forming a committee so that they could get funding for skips, fencing etc. Later one of the gardeners told me he was the treasurer, the other gardener was the secretary and the leasee was the chairman. The gardener told me they were discussing the rules and once they had them sorted (which was a big job because they had downloaded them from the web) they would post them on the shed wall for all to see and agree or disagree on. There were no votes or consultations about forming this committee it was basically suck it and see. But to be honest it didn’t really bother me as we live too far away and were just there to grow our own food and for a bit of relaxing peace and quiet.
Last Sunday I went to the allotment and with my hands full to the point of overflowing the secretary unlocked the gate for me (which was strange as it had always been left open if someone was on site). When I asked why the gate was locked he jumped down my throat and shouted at me it was one of the rules and the chairman was having a board made to put on the gate to inform everyone, He then went on in an aggressive manner shouting at me that if anyone left the gate open and his site got damaged or anything stolen he would personally come down, remove my crops and smash my equipment to make things equal. So then I got cross and shouted back at him (which maybe I shouldn’t have done as I don’t like confrontation) and asked for a copy of these rules which we had not seen, to which he said ‘I wrote the rules and I have the power to enforce them. I walked away to go to my allotment and to phone the other committee member, the treasurer, to report this abusive behaviour. The secretary was on his phone as I left he then came onto my plot entered my polytunnel and told me if I was aggressive like that again he had spoken to the chairman and the chairman said I would be removed permanently. I then asked him to leave my plot as I had paid rent for the year assuming it would now be my private land he then started shouting again and said he was management and could go where he wanted and if I didn’t shut up he would remove me himself there and then, At this point the Treasurer arrived and calmed him down and removed him from my plot. The treasurer came back to me and spoke about what had happened he then spoke to others on the site and agreed with me that the secretary was out of line and aggressive and the rules had not yet been allocated to people so we could only be advised to keep the gate locked.
The same day we were told by 3 other gardeners that he had been aggressive with them about locking the gate. We have no problem with the rule albeit it does make life extremely awkward as my plot is at the bottom of my 76 year old Mum’s garden and she likes to walk down and sit on our bench for some company and the kids like to go to her house, plus that’s where our toilet facilities are, the problem is the way that rule was put across, he could have just explained in a quiet manner, I personally think he had a power rush.
I telephoned the Chairman and he said he couldn’t speak to me as he was at work and to bite my tongue and he would speak to me when he arrived later on that day. He didn’t arrive so I sent him a text message thinking not to phone him if he was at work explaining it was late and I had to go home so I would speak to him in the week.
I have not seen him all week and then yesterday I received a letter from the chairman informing me I had been sent a written warning for unreasonable behaviour, the secretary had the right to advise me and should I cause any more trouble directly or indirectly to any allotment holder I would receive another written warning then I would be asked to leave, On the bottom of the letter it says please find a copy of rules attached for reference but the attachment was not there so I have still not seen these rules.
Having read the posts on this forum I seem to think that we should have signed an agreement and got a copy of the rules and constitution, this has not happened to date.
Please can you advise me of the next course I can take, I do not want to lose my plot but I cannot leave this as it feels like I am in school and not allowed to have an opinion or argue back at a grown man without fear of eviction. My plot is very important to us as it gives my Mum time to spend with us and we have put in a enormous amount of hard work and spent a small fortune, what happens to our veg and polytunnel if he evicts us.
Thanks in advance
Tony and Karen
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I feel so sorry for you Tony and Karen. This problem seems to occur so often judging from the posts we get on here.
I don't really know enough to advise you but there are some very knowledgable folks on here who will advise you what is the best course for you to take. I do hope that you get back the peace and enjoyment from your allotment that you had before.
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Welcome to A4A Tony69. Sorry to hear you are having problems.
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Welcome to both of you, sorry that's it's under such difficult circumstances. There are several allotment 'legal bods' on here who can advise you.
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Have seen these situations on here so many times.
If it was me I would forget it and leave them to it.
I would not feel safe with the one guy you mentioned.
To stay means you are in for a battle and is it worth it?
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That's terrible. It's when I read posts like this that I'm glad we don't have any kind of commitee.
Could you approach the council as they own the land?
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Maybe it is just the rush of power he can't handle, perhaps if you just stay quiet for a wee while and keep your head down it may all blow over and things may get back on an even keel. Certainly you shouldn't;t be pushed around but perhaps this man has difficulty with people skills and has been over reaching his capabilities getting the committee, rules etc ready, who knows what has gone on that you haven't seen
Confronting the situation may make it much worse, I doubt he could get you kicked off but it may build a wall that continues and makes life generally miserable.
I think for now I would keep a low profile and wait and see if he settles down. If nit in a little while and things get worse then certainly you should not put up with it.,
It must be distressing for you and I hope it clears up soon.
XX Jeannine
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hi there thanks for your replies its nice to see people still care out there.
we've been to the allotment today to reep our rewards we got toms, potatoes, carrots, peas beans and some herbs for tea.
I've spoken to a few other people on the site but not said anything about my letter till I know what to say.
All seems well the aggressive committee member walked around the site when Ii arrived just looking but kept well away which was good for me.
The rules have suddenly appeared stapled to the shed wall which is a good start I suppose if a little late.
The rules state I can only ask to read the constitution not have a copy is this right.
The bad news folks is I have found a clean cut in my new water butt when i was refilling it right down at the bottom.
to me it looks like a very sharpe knife but no evidence means tough luck for me im afraid it just seems a little coincidentall it happens after the falling out and letter or am I just reading too much into things at the moment ?????
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This is my worry,he is quiet for the moment but then the nasty little tricks start.
It may not be him but I bet other odd things happen.
When that Bloke said to you "he would remove you himself there and then"your alarm bells should have been ringing big time.What would have happened if the other person had not turned up ?
Watch this space. >:(
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Well Betula this man is 27 years old and a Alcoholic he got his allotment free of charge as it's supposed to be for the AA group to work on and enjoy the rewards, about 6 people turned up the first day he got it and since then (about 3 months) he has been on his own with his wife and child so were not sure if he has taken it on alone, if so then he should pay the rent in our opinion.
Believe me if the treasurer hadn't turned up and he tried to manually evict me then I would have put him to the floor pretty quick, I am 42 years old and not in the least bit worried or intimidated by him. I think the problem arose because I was the only person who had a go back when he started and I think he wasn't expecting it and he got a shock.
The sad thing about the rules is that one of them says the management have the right to enter and walk round our plots, even into piolytunnels which could cause a problem if they do it when were not there and break the zip, how do we prove it was them. I think this rule should be changed to only when gardener is present, and with just cause, but the rules state 'these are final.'
Other allotment holders have told me to return the letter to the chairman stating I will accept it when the secretary gets a letter and I get a copy of his letter as he was the aggressor, which is proved by the fact that he came after me 3 times when I walked away and ended up in my polytunnel with me.
The good thing is that the allotments are all together apart from the secretary's nobody can see his because it's up the driveway and hedged by 12' beech and conifer so he doesn't have anyone to talk to and pretty much stays up there.
At the moment were thinking if we don't speak to anyone and just enjoy our garden then we can't get into trouble but my wife is going to phone the council today and see if they still have any say in the matter.
Regards to all
Tony & Karen
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Sounds like a little hitler to me.
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Shouldn't any commitee been ellected by members to be legal..what has been written here sounds like group of few individuals just decided to elect themselves and start running the plots.
I do agree..seing council would be good idea and see what they say about it.
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The sad thing about the rules is that one of them says the management have the right to enter and walk round our plots, even into piolytunnels
That is just wrong and should be reconsidered - you should only be allowed to enter anyone's plot with permission even if you are on the committee. Rule Number One!!
Legally it sounds an odd situation so I would leave that to unwashed or one of the people in teh know!
Personaly I think you did well to remain peaceful and I would try to stick with that path. I would return the letter to the Chairman as suggested by some of the other plotholders but try to do it in a positive manner.
And get it in touch with the council..
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Unwashed seems to be a real expert on this sort of thing - perhaps he'll jump into help or you could search older related threads for guidance.
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Hi Tony 69 and welcome!
Just like you my first message on the forum was similar to yours with trouble up the plot.. A year on I have had the chance to recover and learn from what happened. I must agree with everyone else about contacting your local council. They advised me to keep a log of the 'harassment' and that they treated such allegations very seriously. They were very helpful and have supported me with constructive advice throughout.
Things have moved on for us and the site supe who caused all the trouble for us takes one look at us and turns his 4x4 around which makes me very happy. Make yourself untouchable by following the rules to the letter (written permission for everything) and do not leave yourself open for attack. Cover your a** in every circumstance. And OMG do not get into tittle tattle up the plot as it wound me up into a terrible frenzy of unhappiness!
On a more personal note I suggest the following things. Please don't take it personally as the sort of person who would verbally abuse someone they do not know well really does not care about you in any sense. We learned this the hard way. Also the temptation is to think that any theft/vandalism is the 'baddy'. A large metal trolley went walkies during our troubles and I just went nuts about it. Eventually the guy up your plot will get pay back and be abused himself as kharma always catches up to those who abuse and bully. It might take a while though but it will come.
No doubt it is him that got your water butt but you will find little recourse unless you can prove it. I was so obsessed I thought about CCTV, sleeping in the polytunnel, covert operations and all manner of hair brained vengeance. It really is not worth the tears, smashed crockery (oh yeah - my best Denby discontinued grrr) high blood pressure and destruction of brain cells. I am a happier and stronger person now having been through all the nonsense believe it or not. Sad thing is we trust noone now.
You must move on and keep your head down. It took me a whole year to get to where I am and I tell myself every time we are up the plot 'f*** him'. It keeps me on track.
Go up your plot and enjoy yourself and get eating your fruit and veggies.
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Hi Tony69 sorry to hear about all the aggro. Very good advice from blackkitty2. Always remember, it's not you, it's him who has a problem.
As the others have said, find out more about your rights, keep a record of what happens, behave impeccably yourself, and wait it out. It won't be like this forever.
Good luck with it all!
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Hello tony69, welcome to A4A, really sorry you're having some bother.
Knowing your rights is one thing, getting your rights is quite another. But these are the basics:
1. It is the most fundamental implied term of your tenancy that you have exclusive possession, so in the normal course of things no one, not the landlord, nor the Council, nor anyone else, has any right of access to your allotment plot save yourself.
2. Your landlord has an implied right to make reasonable inspections with your consent, but a contractural term that goes further than that, such as purporting to grant access at any time for any reason without consent, is repugnant to the nature of your tenancy.
3. If your landlord goes onto your plot without your permission he's trespassing and you can ask him to leave, and you or your agent can use the minimum of necessary force if he refuses. The police have no interest in trespass as it's a civil matter, but they have a duty to prevent a breach of the peace and if the landlord is stroppy and you fear assault you should call 999. In practice it is much, much better to read up on assertive behaviour and not provoke a violent reaction - calmly insisting that your visitor leaves with a threat to report the matter to the council is a good strategy.
4. If your landlord continually goes onto your plot you can sue for any damage caused and you can also sue for breach of your contractural right to exclusive possession, though in practice this is unlikely ever to be worth the effort.
5. Your landlord can't just create rules and regulations without a term in the tenancy agreement to allow it, and so any new rules and regulations are unenforceable. If a rule is unenforceable it means a court won't grant the landlord possession for a breach of the rule. However, if you quibble about a rule the landlord can just give you a notice to quit out of pure vindictiveness and there's little you can do about it.
Can you clarify the situation with the landlord please? You say your parish council has leased the whole allotment site to an individual? Is that individual a trustee? You absolutely must speak to the parish clerk and your local councillors about what's going on.
Like I said, knowing your rights is one thing, but getting your rights is quite another. In practice it can be a gold-almighty hassle unless your council is on your side, and if they aren't on your side then basically you're screwed.
At the end of the day if the only issue is the new lock-the-gate rule then although it's irksome to submit to rule-nazis there's nothing that I've discovered that you can do about it, and half of your site will love the idea anyways.
So what are the new rule?
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Right the landlord as we see it.
These used to be allotments for lots of gardeners, one by one they left for whatever reason and 1 man took over all the plots and did not let them out. He has now retired and his son has taken over.
Son informed us that council said he had to turn them back into manageable plots and rent them out which he has done, he also said council have said he has to put back privet hedges he removed whilst clearing the land. It was in a right state a complete wilderness and the only thing he could do was get a JCB to clear it.
He told us that the site was privately owned and he was the manager of the site. We have been onto the council website and our allotments are listed as council owned plots so we think they ultimately belong to the council. He doesn't seem to be able to make his mind up who owns them.
We have phoned the council allotment person today but he was not available, left a message to phone us back but he hasn't done so today, hopefully he will tomorrow.
Whilst the locked gate rule is a bit of a pain we are quite willing to run with it, we really don't care, the problem came about because of the way he started shouting the odds and stating rules,rules, rules when none of us had seen them. And ultimately I got a written warning for shouting back but he didn't.
Rule No.10 now states, Any member using verbal abuse to another plot holder will result in a written warning (hence my warning). If 2 warnings are issued this will lead to a further letter stating that your plot has been lost.This is the best bit Any complaints regarding this rule must be made in writing to the Secretary. Yes the self same person who started all this aggression. Brilliant isn't it.
Rule 20 is the one relating to entering our plots it states.
20) Plot holders must not trespass on other plots (Nonetheless members of management committee have the right to go on all plots to check for hazards and make sure paths are clear.
Now the paths are grassed and kept completely clear as they have to be mowed by the landlord and whilst this doesn't state they can enter our polytunnel the Secretary informed us that he can.
If I could show you a picture of the allotments I would, they are very small and if you stand on the drive you can see all plots clearly with the exception of the Secretarys because his is up the driveway.
I have been told by the CAB today that we must make it clear that if the comnmittee choose to enter our plot without our permission then they will be responsible for any accidental damage we find. Don't think I can tell them that it will just wind them up.
Regards Tony and Karen
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Can I also ask you guys what you think of this rule?
Rule 26 - From 2012 all plots will be leased on a 6 monthly period.
What happens to our veg if it takes longer than the 6 months to mature and they decide not to renew the lease for no particular reason.
We assumed that the 1 year lease would be pretty standard due to growing seasons.
tony
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These used to be allotments for lots of gardeners, one by one they left for whatever reason and 1 man took over all the plots and did not let them out. He has now retired and his son has taken over.
It's probably a good idea t ofind from the council what the arrangement is. They will have a copy of any lease and deed of trust and you can ask for a copy under the Freedom of Information if the council get funny.
You can do a search on the Land Registry site (http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/wps/portal/Property_Search) to see who owns the land, though it's possible it won't be registered (you need to do a map enquiry and it'll cost you £4). If the land is let for longer than 3 years the council are obliged to have registered that with the Land Registry too.
Whilst the locked gate rule is a bit of a pain we are quite willing to run with it, we really don't care, the problem came about because of the way he started shouting the odds and stating rules,rules, rules when none of us had seen them. And ultimately I got a written warning for shouting back but he didn't.
Rule No.10 now states, Any member using verbal abuse to another plot holder will result in a written warning (hence my warning). If 2 warnings are issued this will lead to a further letter stating that your plot has been lost.This is the best bit Any complaints regarding this rule must be made in writing to the Secretary. Yes the self same person who started all this aggression. Brilliant isn't it.
Nothing unreasonable about that rule. Of course, there's nothing to stop the rule being applied unreasonably, but that's a separate issue. It's not reasonable to expect you to stay cool if you're provoked.
Rule 20 is the one relating to entering our plots it states.
20) Plot holders must not trespass on other plots (Nonetheless members of management committee have the right to go on all plots to check for hazards and make sure paths are clear.
Hazards on your plot aren't the landlord's responsibility, but all the same it's not entirely unreasonable for the landlord to make some effort to ensure that your plot isn't a danger to his visitors, but I don't see how it's necessary to go onto your plot to do that, he can make his inspection from the side paths (assuming it has side paths) and whether your own internal paths are blocked is of no interest to the landlord.
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Can I also ask you guys what you think of this rule?
Rule 26 - From 2012 all plots will be leased on a 6 monthly period.
What happens to our veg if it takes longer than the 6 months to mature and they decide not to renew the lease for no particular reason.
We assumed that the 1 year lease would be pretty standard due to growing seasons.
tony
No particular reason why plots shouldn't be let on 6-months periodic tenancies as the only practical difference is that you'd have to pay half-yearly rent. Section 1 Allotments Act 1922 (as ammended Section 10 Allotments Act 1950) gives you a statutory 12 months minimum notice period, though maybe your landlord doesn't know that. Note that a periodic tenancy automatically renews and must be ended by one of you serving on the other a notice to quit.
It's a bit more complicated if the plot isn't explicitly let on a periodic tenancy, but let's gloss over that.
However, if the landlord has written this into a rule there's a good chance he hasn't got a clue what's what so he's unlikely to terminate your existing annual periodic tenancy anyways.
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Rule 26 - From 2012 all plots will be leased on a 6 monthly period.
What happens to our veg if it takes longer than the 6 months to mature and they decide not to renew the lease for no particular reason.
We assumed that the 1 year lease would be pretty standard due to growing seasons.
Annual periodic tenancies are pretty much all you'll find, though some farmers let plots for 11 months and kick you off each year, though that's a bit different.
There's no particular reason why a plot shouldn't be let on a six month periodic tenancy as the only difference would be that you'd have to pay a half-yearly rent twice a year. Section 1 Allotments Act 1922 (as ammended by Section 10 Allotments Act 1950) guarantees you a statutory minimum 12 months notice to quit and letting the plot on a six month periodic tenancy doesn't change that - you still have a right to 12 months notice to quit even if the tenancy agreement explicitly says otherwise.
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Sorry Tony, can you clarify about these rules? Is it just a list of things pinned on the notice board?
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Hi yes mate the rules are just three sheets of laminated paper pinned to the shed wall nothing more nothing less.
I must stress all i want is to enjoy the piece and my veg ive never been a big gardener but i just love the allotment.
I really just dont want to be pushed around so feel if i knew my rights they would leave me alone so i could go back to that.
I've read lots of posts on here and although there seems to be buckets of rules it does seem there followed with a shovel full of tough too.
I really wish to do this right and keep my cool with this person so your help is really appreciated
thanks Tony.
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I think I would tiake a photo of the rules with a hi res camera so I could print them off and keep a record of them so that they cannot suddenly introduce extra ones.
I would also try and hunt in packs so arrange with other plot holders to make sure people are supported in case of hassle.
I think your experiences show how important it is to have a good management system whether it is local authority, committee, famer or other landlord. Veggie growing should be a hassle free experience.
Do the land registry have details of who owns the land? Most of it is online now.
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hi there i have taken a pic of the rules with my phone it has a good camera on it.
the land is still registered on our council allotment site but i will know for sure when we talk to the allotment officer.
one of the rules state that no one can edge the paths of there plot as this will cause problems when they mow them , fair point and it makes sence.
the only problem i can see is the plot holder next to me spent 3 weeks edging and building up his plot like steps ashis plot is quite steep and i wonder whyhe didnt mention it before the hard work and money went into it.
to me it feels as though its been handled all wrong
thanks tony
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I should see your local councillor. They can pull strings and make sure the bureaucrats take you seriously.
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Hi All,
Just an update, my wife spoke to the counmcil allotments manager today and he said anyone can elect themselves a committee without informing anyone else so we didn't have to vote this secretary in and they didn't have to tell us about any rules but he's sure they will when they have sorted them out. We explained the whole of the problem and he said as far as the council is concerned we have a committee and should take it up with them, he wasn't really interested except to say that the council would not get involved as we have an association now and although there is an allotments act there are no hard and fast rules.
He agreed that both parties should have behaved more responsibly but said we should have just took onboard the ravings of the secretary and learn to get on with everyone. We explained we already do get on with everyone but can't get up there every night just every other night and he said we should make more effort to go up and to attend meetings then we would have had a say. My wife said What Meeting ther has't been one and he said well maybe not everyone was invited. Our only course of action is basically to beg forgiveness of the secretary for shouting at him and learn to work as a team.
Wow and we have to pay over a thousand pounds to this council. My wife asked him if he thought it was fair for the council to send us a non payment letter threatening court just incase we dont pay our council tax in 3 years time and he said well if the council could get away with that then he's sure they would, thats life.
I'm struck dumb.
I can see veggies coming from Morrisons next year.
Thanks to all
Tony & Karen
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There surely must be a due process for electing committee, if anyone can be a committee what happens if someone sets up another rival one.
I would suggest clarifying the details from the council allotment officer in writing.
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Tony - sounds like a load of thingy to me.
However if you think you can live with the little Hitler on the site then I'd give it ago - the plot can deliver so much pleasure but I guess you have to weigh it against an aggro you may get.
I am the sec of our plot and sometimes people shout at me or each other - I just try to be as mellow as possible and smile at them like the idiot I am - they soon seem to tire of the dramatics.
You never know this may all blow over and you could have great productive plot - don't jack it in because of one or two over zealous loons.
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Hi all,
I did ask if the council allotment manager really mean't to say that anyone can start a commitee and he said yes. So I said so does that mean me and my neighbour and the bloke across the path can start our own committee and he said technically yes but it would be seen as antagonistic to the existing committee. YOU DON'T SAY, ha ha. Typical politicians say one thing, mean another and do something entirely different. Talk about a jobsworth.
Tony and I have decided that we are going to go about our business and completely ignore the moron. When the treasurer gets back from hols on Saturday we will ask him to point us in the right direction if he thinks we may be contravening some whim of the Secretarys, thinking if we don't speak to him we can't possibly do anything wrong. Or not, watch this space!!
We still think it's a bit of a poor show when one man can scream and shout at another and you are not allowed to scream and shout back but if he wants to behave like a child and he has nothing more important in his life then so be it we hope it makes him happy. And if the Chairman wishes to lie in his bed we hope he gets the lumpy bit.
Thank you to everyone for all the sympathy, empathy, sheer disbelief and good old common sense. You are diamonds.
Regards karen & tony
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Very peculiar, I can't say I like that - I think anyone should be able to join the allotment association, and any member should be able to vote in elections of the committee. It's bizarre to think anyone can announce they're a committee. ::)
I did ask if the council allotment manager really mean't to say that anyone can start a commitee and he said yes. So I said so does that mean me and my neighbour and the bloke across the path can start our own committee and he said technically yes but it would be seen as antagonistic to the existing committee. YOU DON'T SAY, ha ha. Typical politicians say one thing, mean another and do something entirely different. Talk about a jobsworth.
If this was a council official, employed by the council to manage allotments among other things, then he or she's not a politician. They might just really need a quiet life and it's selfish, but that's perhaps why they're pushing it all back onto you.
As Robert recommends, you could try talking to either your local councillor or the one who is responsible for allotments, if one has special responsibility. They might like to help you, because showing they've done stuff helps them get elected next time.
But hopefully you won't need to do anything else - if it all quietens down. :-\
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As I said earlier, just keep your head down, focus on your goal and stay with the plot,,he will calm down after the novelty wears off, be very careful you don`t make a small problem in a big one..
Enjoy your plot and your veggies, if he wants to run around like a man with one foot nailed to the floor, let him get on with it..it is his problem..he will burn out.
XX Jeannine
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Hi folks just a quick message
Just to say our treasurer has returned from holiday today and been to see me.
To say hes not a happy bunny would be tame, he cant belive whats gone off while he's been away and how the chairman has behaved .
he asked if the secretary got a letter to and was shocked to hear just it was just me that got one.
As we were both shouting we should both have had a letter if for nothing more than to look fair.
The treasurer was on site at the time and also told the chair it wasnt me that started it so watch this space people i may get a fair hearing after all.
Ive always said he was a nice guy, he just wants it to be a nice place to garden and relax which is what its all about isn't it folks :D :D
Thanks tony
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We have the opposite problem we were asked by the council to form an association and when we did they refused to recognise it!
We involve everybody, have a website and any member can come to any committee meeting plus we have an AGM and annual accounts are produced.
As is often the case in life one strong character can completely dominate a club or association and its quite surprising how often people accept it.
If I were you I'd chase the council up just in case the current crew refuse to renew your tenancy. Go to your local Councillor not an employee.
Explain you are on council land but you are forced to pay money to someone you didn't elect who presumably won't have an AGM or produce accounts, what if they apply for grant and pocket the money?
What if he does not pass your money onto the council
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I was amazed to hear about all the trouble you have been having Tony69. We still live in a democracy and the proper way to form a committee is for the members to legally elect one at an AGM in which all members have been invited. This should occur yearly with a proper agenda, a copy of the accounts and any other business that needs to be discussed and voted on. No one can just make up their own rules as they go along without consulting plotholders. It does seem like a dictatorship and the council person who gave his views was entirely wrong in them. To be honest I wouldn't play dumb, I would question the legality of this self elected committee, and get together with other plotholders to make a big stink about it. You all have your rights and should stand up for them. Good luck in righting this wrong. Best wishes, busy_lizzie
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I would say to get on with tending your allotment and if you feel that you are not getting the pleasure out of it that you once were then pack up and go somewhere else. Life is too short to waste time worrying about people who take your peace away.
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Trouble with that is, it leaves the little hitlers free to get on with their hitlering at other peoples' expense.
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As allotment supervisor on our site, I do have authority of the council to enter any allotment on site. If I need to go onto a plot I always arrange to meet the plot holder at their plot. 95% of issues / complaints I receive about different plots are rectified amicably with a face to face meeting with the tenant. Minutes of the face to face are kept and archived as a formality and usually do not have to be referred to again.
All plot holders should of had the opportunity to vote on any committee and all plot holders should of had the opportunity to stand for committee positions. If the committee formed without other plotholders knowing then it is not really valid and you could say that you would like to stand as a candidate for one of the positions.
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As allotment supervisor on our site, I do have authority of the council to enter any allotment on site. If I need to go onto a plot I always arrange to meet the plot holder at their plot. 95% of issues / complaints I receive about different plots are rectified amicably with a face to face meeting with the tenant. Minutes of the face to face are kept and archived as a formality and usually do not have to be referred to again.
The problem with this is that the Council does not have the authority to go onto let plots, so it can't legitimately authorise you to do something it can't do. In a nut shell this is what the Council has let to the tenant and what the tenant pays rent for - exclusive posession. Of course if you're arranging to meet the tenants then that's quite different and a top-class service, and in any event I very much doubt that you'd go walking about on their beds anyways.
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The problem with this is that the Council does not have the authority to go onto let plots, so it can't legitimately authorise you to do something it can't do. In a nut shell this is what the Council has let to the tenant and what the tenant pays rent for - exclusive posession.
I'm a bit confused now (nothing new there then)
I've just checked Birmingham's rules and it says:-
13. Inspection
13.1 The Allotment Garden (and any structure on it) may be entered and inspected by an Officer or member of the Council (including members of the Allotments Working Party) or an Officer of the relevant Association at any time and the Tenants must give whatever access they require.
All the plots on our site have a paved path at the side. When we inspect plots we stay on the path. Should we not be doing this?
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It may be in the rules, but that doesn't necessarily mean the Council have the lawful authority to walk onto your plot any time they like.
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It may be in the rules, but that doesn't necessarily mean the Council have the lawful authority to walk onto your plot any time they like.
Robert, is there a difference between 'plot' and 'path'? (I mean the path between plots)
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Robert, is there a difference between 'plot' and 'path'? (I mean the path between plots)
Hope you don't mind me answering for you Robert - but it depends Betty. In Newbury the plots are separated by paths and the paths are the Council's to walk on as they please (though we have to cut the grass on them) but the Council can't as a right go walking about on the plot itself, not even on paths or grass that the tenant may have laid out on their own plot. But different sites have different arrangements, such as plots that are hedged or fenced around - the Council can't go onto those without the tenant's say so.
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Squash - the home page says you posted in this thread at 1808 but I can't see that post. Is the forum software misbehaving or something?
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I think it's a glitch which I'll report to Dan. The post doesn't show up when you view the thread as normal but if you open a reply window, you can see the post in the list of all posts down below the reply box.
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Thanks Ceres, I see it like you said - odd.
I'm a bit confused now (nothing new there then)
I've just checked Birmingham's rules and it says:-
13. Inspection
13.1 The Allotment Garden (and any structure on it) may be entered and inspected by an Officer or member of the Council (including members of the Allotments Working Party) or an Officer of the relevant Association at any time and the Tenants must give whatever access they require.
All the plots on our site have a paved path at the side. When we inspect plots we stay on the path. Should we not be doing this?
No, the Council can't create such a rule as it is repugnant to the essential nature of the tenancy - it is an implicit and inviolate condition of a tenancy that the landlord gives the tenant "exclusive posession" and allows the tenant "quiet enjoyment". That's not to say the Council can't inspect on reasonable notice, but it's questionable whether a local authority landlord can ever require to look into sheds and polytunnels because of their legal duty to respect the tenant's privacy. (I think :) )
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Robert, is there a difference between 'plot' and 'path'? (I mean the path between plots)
Hope you don't mind me answering for you Robert - but it depends Betty. In Newbury the plots are separated by paths and the paths are the Council's to walk on as they please (though we have to cut the grass on them) but the Council can't as a right go walking about on the plot itself, not even on paths or grass that the tenant may have laid out on their own plot. But different sites have different arrangements, such as plots that are hedged or fenced around - the Council can't go onto those without the tenant's say so.
Thanks for explaining Simon, but I am being particularly thick this evening....
The paths between our plots were laid by the Council, so I presume that means they belong to the Council? If we, as the committee, only walk on the path and don't set foot on the actual plot, would that be alright?
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The paths between our plots were laid by the Council, so I presume that means they belong to the Council? If we, as the committee, only walk on the path and don't set foot on the actual plot, would that be alright?
Yes, that's fine, no problem with that.
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I might not be right but I thought that the sheds of Squashes site are provided by the council, so I would expect them to be given reasonable access to check they are not damaged for example. I would expect them to have to make an appointment.
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I might not be right but I thought that the sheds of Squashes site are provided by the council, so I would expect them to be given reasonable access to check they are not damaged for example. I would expect them to have to make an appointment.
Yes, the sheds are provided by the Council but to be honest, I just don't have time to inspect sheds! (shhh, don't tell the Council ;))
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I might not be right but I thought that the sheds of Squashes site are provided by the council, so I would expect them to be given reasonable access to check they are not damaged for example. I would expect them to have to make an appointment.
Is it necessary to inspect the inside of a shed to content yourself that it is not damaged?
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What about inside their wellys, they maybe taking top soil home with them. :P
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What about inside their wellys, they maybe taking top soil home with them. :P
You may be joking Kev but theft of soil is something that one member on my site has accused another one of!!! :-X
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We once had a committee member - now long gone - who swore all the topsoil had been stolen off a particular plot; she had a feud with the former plotholder, and it was an excuse for not letting the plot, and claiming they'd 'ruined' it. In fact, the soil was on a level with all the other plots, and it's now growing perfectly good crops.
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You know if we made up these stories no-one would believe us but hey-ho they are TRUE ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Guys,
Just an update for you all, we decided to get on with gardening and on the Thursday before we went away for 2 weeks we found a 1" slit in the bottom of our brand new water butt. Now we don't want to point fingers but this seems very strange when only 2 weeks prior the Secretary told us he was going to trash our allotment. Still we took the butt home and Tony is going to plastic weld it and we didn't say anything. Then we went on holiday.
Last Saturday the Treasurer visited us at the coast and told us he had gone mad at the chairman and the secretary, informing them that it was the secretary's attitude that caused all the upset in the first place. he asked how long our warning was to last as it wasn't stated in the letter and they both said it was for LIFE. He told them they couldn't do that everyone should get a warning for a set period, including his son as he also had a shouting match with the secretary, but they shrugged. They then told him that the Secretarys Wife and the Chairman's underage daughter were now on the association bank account cheque book. The Treasurer said surely if he was the Treasurer then he should be on the cheque book as the main signatory, they said well it was sorted when you were on holiday but they could get a form. They then told him that although both he and his wife and me and Tony both put the same amount into our plots the men were the plot holders and the women do not have a say on anything. The treasurer was steaming but we told him not to fight our battles but to just watch his own back.
We came home from holiday and I went to the allotment to be told that our irrigation system for the polytunnel had been turned off at the tap on the other two water butts so we had lost a couple of tomato's and cucumbers before Tony's Mum who was looking after it for us realised that the ground was very dry and the plants were shrivelling. She didn't didn't really need to go into our tunnel as we had set up a water irrigation system that would last 2 weeks so long as the water butts were topped up. But she was very welcome to enter if she wanted to or she fancied any of our veggies. She is in her eighties and we didn't want to leave her with loads of work to do.
Two very strange happenings, these are now making us nervous about what happens when were not there and we don't want to point fingers but if things keep mysteriously occuring then we will have no choice but to give up the lotty. We cannot without absolute proof accuse anyone and woulnd't dream of doing so but something's wrong.
The other plot holders are a school teaching couple who have said they don't like confrontation and don't want to get involved they just want to garden, 2 retired gents who just want to potter about and a man who has basically said that when the problems affect him he will put people on their backs but until then he's happy to carry on. Thats all there is apart from the chairman, secretary and treasurer. so we do not have any support really from other gardeners. Mind you one of the rules is that no plot can be edged and the man next to us has edged his plot with railway sleepers (before the rules went up) so it will be interesting to see if these rules apply to everyone except him or if he does indeed put them on their backs when they tell him to remove them.
Oh who was it that said gardening was a pleasant relaxing pastime (they want shooting).
Regards to all Karen
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Surely the daughter of a committee member should not be a signatory on the bank account particuarly as she is under age. I think I would be tempted to pin up the obligations and responsibilites of being a committee member on the notice board when not one is looking.
I must say I am glad I do not have all that hassle. The system of allotment management seems to be less important than that it works in an efficient and fair manner. If you want to detect if someone is entering your allotment I suggest black cotton. You put it across the entrance and fix it very loosely and if it has been disturbed then someone has been onto the plot. In my case I have to put it high enough to miss the muntjac. My sweet corn is disappearing so I know how frustrating it is when you feel that odd things are happeniing.
A bit of a frustration for you if they arrange a 'meeting' everytime you are not around. I think I would just try and garden and leave them to get on with it.
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hi all just to let you know ive gone down the keep my head down root even though i think im number 1 on there hit list im hoping they move on to someone else soon.
things have moved on since my last post everything seems to be buy the book on paper but dodgy off ha ha.
anyway i have a question for you folks in the know. whats the difference between a allotment association and a allotment society as weve just had the name changed from one to the other
thanks tony
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Let me get this right. The treasurer visited this allotment couple while on their holidays to update them on the dodgy dealings of the allotment association. Really?
Perhaps I am just being cynical.
And as for having an under 18 as a co signatory - not a chance.
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well ive had a lovely day today just me and the wind, not a sole came on and i got to enjoy my allotment .
ive been taking out as much veg as i can onions, spuds, beetroot etc and ive managed to dig almost half my lotty which is good its looking nice and tidy now suprising how 2 weeks away can give the weeds a chance.
my polly is also clear and ready to plant my winter veg its been a very good day lol..
im just going to sit back and watch the committee hang them selves dont think they need my help there doing well on there own lol im enjoying my digging
tony
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hi all just a quick one to let you know the committee have hung themselves.
The rest of the plot holders have said enoughs enough, the former committee have gone from changing the rules daily to moving peoples crops as and when they feel to evicting people for no other reason than they want to half there plot size to make smaller plots to double there money.
So a meeting has been held and there off ,a new committee has been put in there place and are trying to sort out all the mess they've left.
New fair rules new constitution just for starters slow but sure we hope.
I have been appointed secretary which has been a little of a shock as im fairly new to all this but ill give it my best.
The old committee are not happy but its all been done legal and above board so its just a matter of fighting for books etc and any other paper work they have.
So much for keeping my head down lol
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That's good news Tony.
The best way to get change is to be the change
Enjoy your new role :D
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See recent thread on starting an allotment committee Tony- and all the best!!
Out celebrating ;)?
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congrats on becoming the Secretary!!
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i feel ive got a lot to learn and fast.
i am willing to learn so hopefully things wont be to bad.
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Nice one tone. ;D
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Now the fun begins!!
If your experience is going to be anything like mine - we're an independent site, too - you've certainly got a lot to learn, and fast. Go for it! Find out everything you can, but move slowly. It sounds like the other lot made things up as they went along, which isn't necessarily the best way!
The good news is, most people will back you because anything's better than the other lot!
Do keep us updated....
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little update.....
We've now been given the thumbs up from the council and have been invited to there next allotment meeting so thats a big plus.
we've also looked at the land that hasn't been sorted and we have now gone from 10 plots to 22 plots without taking any land from our existing plot holders unlike our last committe. we have also made some half plots avalible for people who can't take on a full size plot.
we know its going to be slow but like you say we would rather have it slow and right than make lots of mistakes.
thanks tony
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So pleased for you :D
Any more q's - keep firing away- someone will answer them :D
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One thing Tone, keep the plot holders informed every step of the way, keep them on side, the biggest problem with committees is the secretive streak that comes with the job, it gives the idiots ammunition to nuts stir. :-X
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hi there
we are trying to keep a very open policy and keeping all plot holders in the loop as much as possible and there helping us and having there say with the new rules constitution etc. we know we cant please all but i good portion will be nice.
now for a question
our ex chairman turned out to also be a trustee for the site which was a no no by all acounts.
my question is on a council owned site what power does he actually have what would his job intale.
we are trying not to cross swords with him again so early after his removal and we know he will make life hard so if anyone knows what he can stop us doing i would be gratefull.
hope that makes sence
thanks again for all your help it really does make a difference
tony
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I am not clear about the status of the trustees in this situation but the charity commision have quite a lot of info about trustees in general. They seem to suggest you can be an officer of a charity as well as a trustee.
http://www.comisiwnelusennau.gov.uk/publications/CC3.aspx#b2
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You really need to get copies of all the relevant documents - lease, trust deed and any others to understand the legal structure you have. If the site is owned by the council, they should be able to provide you with copies.
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Can you clarify the situation with the landlord please? You say your parish council has leased the whole allotment site to an individual? Is that individual a trustee? You absolutely must speak to the parish clerk and your local councillors about what's going on.
Tony, this is what I asked you on 1 August. Have you not done this yet?
If your parish council has leased your allotment site to someone so that they can run the allotments then that person effectively owns the site until the lease comes to an end. It's not unusual for a council to do this and the site is usually leased to several people jointly with some conditions attached to the lease. Those individuals own the lease, but they own it for the benefit of others, and that's what a trust is, and those people are often called trustees.
Confusingly all sorts of other people get called trustees, not least the board of management of a charity, but being a trustee doesn't imply charitable status.
Allotment associations that are unincorporated association do not have a legal personality, that is to say, the association can't own land, so an association that wants to lease its own site has two ways of doing it, they either incorporate as an Industrial and Provident Society or something like that, or the association appoints trustees who personally own the lease for the benefit of the tenants. In this situation it's usual for the trustees to be nominated committee members, though that can be anyone. It's also not at all unusual for an allotment association to have quite forgotten about the technicalities of how it owns its land and for the original trustees to have died and not replaced.
There's a whole branch of law to do with trusts and it's probably the most complicated law there is. Trustees have legal responsibilities.
As I suggested to you two months ago, you need to talk to the council and understand the situation. This chap that you've ousted is quite possibly the lease owner he may not want to resign th responsibility, and the council may not be able to do anything to help. Without understanding the situation it's not possible to say.
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hi unwashed
yes we did try to get all the information from the council but they wouldnt talk to us.
The man incharge at the council has since been removed due to not doing said job correct and a new head of allotments has taken his place.
With us being the new committee and him being new in his job has made things really slow but at least now there moving.
The council have said they will look into the lease and why there is only one trustee when there should be 3 also how he became the trustee in the first place . we do have a copy of the lease but to be honest its very legal in contence and a little over my head.
i was just trying to get a insight while we wait. things are very slow with all councils it seems but it seems it takes 2 weeks to answer one question.
thanks tony
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Hi tony its tray. You know we will get there sooner or later. But I still don't trust them two ( bill and Ben). And you know every one is behind us all the way. We will do it. see you soon.
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Hi Tony, PM sent.
Welcome to A4A Tim, good to have you here.
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hi tray-tim i hope so lol...
im a little slow simon but it should be with you soon mate and thanks.. ;D ;D
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quick question folks
The rules we are using are very standard so's to keep them straight forward and legal, but i do have one rule that bugs me ???
Rule reads as follows......
The committee may terminate with 5 days notice any membership of any member bringing the group into disripute, the member concerned shall have the right to be heard by the committee before a final decision is made.
The thing is i keep reading it has to be 12 months notice on here or am i getting mixed up.
Surly if you have real problems with some one for unforseen reasons it cant take a year of hell to remove them
im confused ??? ??? ??? ???
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A few years ago the manager on our site took 3 years to get rid of someone & he was really trying ;) ::).
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Simple answer is that the tenancy of your plot and the membership of your site association and two separate things. Only they're not entirely separate.
On the one had there's the allotment tenancy, and the tenancy agreement will contain terms that say what you can and can't do, like you can't sunbathe naked, and you must paint your shed turquoise, and crucially it can contain a term that says you must be a member of the allotment association. You're also right that as a consequence of the Allotments Act 1922 as ammended by the Allotments Act 1950 you can't be given less than 12 months notice to quit. As it happens that's not important, what makes the difference is Section 146 Law of Property and the term of the agreement that deals with forfeiture.
Then on the other hand there's the membership of the allotment society, which is actually a contract for a service. Your membership will also be subject to terms such like you can't be a member if you don't have an allotment, or that you can be expelled from membership with five days notice if you bring the association into disrepute.
There's not actually any incompatibility. Say you insult the mayor infront of the television cameras at the opening of your new site toilet, that's probably enough to get you expelled from the association for bringing it into disrepute. Five days later you're not an association member any more, and so you are now in breach of a term of your tenancy agreement - but you are still a tenant. What the committee has to do now is forfeit your tenancy for breaching the term about being an association member - that's not a notice to quit. The statutory procedure for forfeiture is that if you can't re-join the association then the committee can forfeit the tenancy immediately.
Forfeiture and Notice to Quit often get confused but they have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with each other, except of course they both end the tenancy.
Forfeiture, which is governed by Section 146 Law of Property 1925, is where the tenancy is brought to an end because of some breach of a condition of tenancy.
Notice to Quit is a bit more subtle. Technically a lease is called a a term of years absolute. What that measn is that it actually runs for a definite fixed period. Any fixed period actually, not just a year, it could be a day or a thousand years, but it must be a definite fixed period. But it happens that when people want to lease land they don't always know how long they'll want it for, and so with a bit of legal smoke an mirrors the periodic tenancy was invented, and allotments are almost always let on an annual periodic tenancy. With a periodic tenany the lease is still for a definite fixed period, like a year for an allotment, but rather than terminating at the end of the year another year's tenancy is automatically appended - glued to the previous one with some special legal glue so that looking back you can't see the join! A Notice to Quit is the magic incantation that stops the periodic tenancy re-starting with a new period - and this is why when a Notice to Quit is served it must expire on either the last day of the period or what would be the first day of the next period, because it isn't actually bringing the tenancy to an end, it's just preventing it from starting up again automatically.
A bit complicated I know, but I've seen tenancy agreements that talk about serving a 30 day Notice to Quit for breaking the rules, and it's complete rubbish because what they actually have to say is a Notice of Forfeiture, and because the rule purports to allow the tenancy to be ended with a 30 day Notice to Quit the allotments acts say that's void, and because there is no implied common law right to forfeit a tenancy the landlord is stuffed.
Oh, as always, this is all IMHO and it could be completely wrong. Just saying.
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yes its not good were not setting out to be anything other than fair and wish to give people the time to sort things, i just want to make sure if we are really up against a fence we have a way out.
thanks tony
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Just separate the two things and don't make membership of the association a condition of tenancy.
You don't need to be a member organisation, you collect the rents so you don't need separate subs, and if allotmenteers don't want a say in the site management they don't need to join. In practice I can't see why you'd want to expell someone from association membership, because if they've done something serious enough they'll be losing their tenancy anyways.
Of course it all a bit different for mutuals who own their own site.
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I went and met up with Des and Tim today at their site to see what the situation is.
The relevant facts are
1 The site is let by the council on a yearly renewing tenancy ( date not yet known) to the named Trustees, which expression shall where the context so admits include the Trustees in whom for the time being the tenancy created by this Agreement is vested and are collectively known as the Allotment Association.
2 The Trustees agree to sub-let the land to persons who shall be members of said Allotment Assiciation.
3 It is further agreed that all disputes between the Trustees and his Sub-Tenants shall be settled by the Trustees unless such disputes involve breaches of any of the stipulations herein contained.
With only one living trustee, what would the position be if the members of the Association held a meeting and removed the Trustee from that position and appointed new trustees. As the tenancy is only vested in the named trustee on behalf of the Association would the tenancy be void?
I find it amazing that the council lets to individuals on behalf of associations but then vests the power in those individuals rather than the association.
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To be honest it's more that I understand. I think the guys would be well advised to spend £500 and get some advice from a solicitor about how a lease for land is owned in trust, and particularly some advice on what those words mean in their tenancy.
How I understand it is this: The lease has to be owned by private individuals because the association is not a body corporate, and so the council lets the site to named individuals on the condition that these individuals let it for allotments. It's actually that stipulation that creates the trust, because the lease is owned in trust for the people of the town who might want to have an allotment.
The bit about "for the time being" also says that the Trustees aren't necessarily the individuals named on the lease, but are actually whoever happens to be the trustees at any particular time.
There's lots of precedent to deal with the situation when trustees disappear, even when all the trustees disappear, so just because the trustees have all gone certainly doesn't void the tenancy, though whether anyone can just come along in good faith and take on the role I couldn't say.
My concern for Des and Tony is that it's just about possible that as officers of the association they could assume the responsibility of trustees without any trouble, but it's also just about possible that technically they could be committing fraud if the law didn't recognise them as trustees and they effectively sublet plots which weren't theirs to let.
I don't see anything wrong with the lease as such, the problem as I see it is that the lease needs to say how new officers of the association automatically become new trustees, and how retiring officers of the association stop being trustees. It's actually possible that the words of the lease do indeed allow just that very thing, and that's why I suggest they pay for some decent proper legal advice.
What I've suggested to the guys is that they get the Council to terminate the existing lease and then give them a new one. The old one needs to be terminated because I believe the existing trustee is still the only actual trustee and it's not obvious to me how his ownership of the lease can be assigned to both Des and Tony.
If the Council wanted to help they could exercise their right of re-entry to terminate the lease weed nuisance after 30 days notice (you're going to be able to find at elast one weed somewhere on site, right?).