Allotments 4 All
Produce => Kept Animals => Topic started by: blackkitty2 on May 31, 2011, 18:24:00
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Hi there. Not being a bee keeper myself I thought I would ask a few questions on behalf of a fellow plotholder.
My fellow plottie has been told that he has to put signs on his beehive and make other plotholders aware that the bees are there. Understandely he is not best pleased as he did not want to draw attention to his bumbles as they might go walkies. Does he have to do this? He has paid his insurance dues this year - so does that cover him for any accidents third party wise?
I have looked at other threads on the forum and I am going to suggest he joins the BBKA for the insurance as a starting point. I originally told the plot holder to contact the council about this as we are on a site where there are no longer any tenants agreements (long story) offered and quite frankly the place is going to the dogs as it is so badly mismanaged (don't ask, sigh). For example, we lightly prune a hedge (very nicely in fact) and it is brought up in a committee meeting (OMG why can't 'they' get a life!). I digress....
I just want him to cover his a** and enjoy the bees and honey goodies and not be buried in allotment bumf. I understand that there could be a scenario akin to film The Swarm but is it really likely? I think it is all a bit much asking him to draw attention to the bees as surely that will encourage people to come and poke about and get stung.
I would be grateful for any advice.
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Are they bumblebees - which are almost certainly on the site anyway - or honeybees? If the former, they're a wild insect like any other, which very rarely stings anyone unless they're digging their nest up to remove them.
If they're honeybees, then I agree with keeping sites quiet if possible! Given sensible beekeeping, the risk is about zero; it's been some years since the last report of anyone being killed by bees in the UK, and that time the guy turned out to have died of a non-bee related heart attack, next to his hives. Lots of people keep bees on allotments without problems; I've had mine on my plot for eleven years without incident.
BBKA insurance provides third party insurance up to five million.
'The Swarm' came out at the height of 'killer bee' hysteria in the States, and is utterly unrealistic.
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Membership of BBKA is essential, as they provide both insurance and training. We don't allow hives on site without that. And all locations have to be vetted, so the bees have a clear upward exit. (We have a hugely experienced keeper on-site, who vets all hives.)
But, having read your other threads - and reading between the lines on this one - there are other issues involved here, aren't there?
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Thanks for all the help and yes I think there may just be (e) other stuff going on har, har. Fortunately this time it isn't myself being harassed and terrorised. I gave my advice to the prospective bee keeper - my words were 'it will only take one kid to get stung and that will be it'. They chose to ignore me but there ya' go. I am sick of allotment politics and could do without this problem being dumped on me early on a tuesday morning. I just wanted to play with my onion sets, tidy them up and bog off home but smucko made the mistake of being visible. I think I may take up night gardening.......
I do feel sorry for them though as they were really excited about the bees arriving. I think they were more bothered about the supe accessing their plot without asking while they were not there rather than the sign posting. I told them they can't really do much about the supe doing this, or can they? Another thread for this issue I think.
I sincerely doubt that they have membership af any society so I will suggest the BBKA which I quite fancy joining myself as we have leaf cutter bees on the side of our house. We have also resisted getting bees as a) we don't know anything about them and b) the cash involved and c) some beggar will nick them. I'll stick to the leafies in the meantime and educate myself on bees.
I find the little leaf cutters totally engrosing and they have taken over a bug box. They look so comical hanging out of the bamboo canes antenna twitching at night. It is also great that they don't sting and you can stand right next to the bug box while they zoom in past your head Ride of the Valkyries/Apocalypse Now - like. It appears to me that there are 3 separate bees collecting pollen and sealing things up - small and dark, medium and yellow and large-ish yellow - but all three types are acting independently of one another.
I will also mention the clear upward exit Trevor as quite frankly knowing nothing about bees I would never have even know about bee exit strategies. Why these guys couldn't have have kept it on the quiet like you Robert (how's the cp's?) fails me. I still don't think that a sign is necessary as it will just lead to heartbreak somehow.
Many thanks everyone.
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What are we talking about; honeybees, bumblebees or solitary bees? You keep mentioning different types of bee, and advice for one simply doesn't apply to the others.
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The allotment bees are I am assuming honey bees. Having not seen them up close I am just guessing. The plot holder just dumped the problem on me and I am trying to suss out whether he should have to put up neon flashing signs saying 'Here are my bees - come poke, prod, steal and generally get me into trouble!'.
Does anyone think that he has to be ordered to put up such signs on the (supposed) authority of the site supe?
The other bees are the ones on the side of my house which I am trying to id. Sorry for the confusion. I think at least one type are Red masony bees but I am unsure as to the others. Having found out that there are hundreds of solitary bees in the UK I think I have three forms in our bug box.
Ignore my stuff about the solitary bees as the real issue is about the signs on the plotholder's beehive. Does he have to do this?
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Depends whether it's in the site rules. There's certainly no general rule to that effect. What size are the hives? If they're honeybee hives, they'll probably be stacks of wooden boxes eighteen inches square or a bit bigger.
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The alllotments appear to have no real rules as the supe no longer hands out tenants agreements to new plotholders and has not done so for a few years now. The plot holder has one small hive that looks quite traditional and not stacked boxes. I saw the box type on BBC2's Gardener's World last night and the hive is not as professional looking.
If it were me I would tell the Supe that I was not going to put signs up. To show you how inefficient the Supe is - the forms he gave the plot holder with information about bees on allotments were actually from another UK allotment association. It confounds me that the place is so mismanaged here that the plotholder was given stuff that doesn't even apply to the specific allotments he has a plot on.
Another example of the inefficiency at these allotments is that the Supe is telling plotholders that they can put their own water troughs in (there are more than enough already) as long the plotholder gets an accredited plumber in to do it. I see stormclouds brewing overhead when someone tries to do the job themselves.
Thanks for the advice again Robert. I will pass on any info. when I see the plotholder again.
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Hi all,
The new rules in Norwich effectively mean you cannot have them.
ie. you have to have a years experience of keeping bees before you can keep bees.
Other rules are 2m high fences, locked enclosure not near a road or other boundary, a set of keys for the council,
notices, insurance, completion of a course with certification.
I always have bees but they are squatters, and not kept.
I gave up the idea, :( Col
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A traditional beehive is presumably one of those old WBC things, which were often white painted. They'll be honeybees, but under the circumstances, what the guy says would be best ignored. When people start giving in to that sort they get worse.
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Hi all,
The new rules in Norwich effectively mean you cannot have them.
ie. you have to have a years experience of keeping bees before you can keep bees.
Other rules are 2m high fences, locked enclosure not near a road or other boundary, a set of keys for the council,
notices, insurance, completion of a course with certification.
I always have bees but they are squatters, and not kept.
I gave up the idea, :( Col
Hi Col,
a friend of mine has bees on an allotment site in Norwich, the new rules are easy enough to comply with if you are an experienced Beekeeper.
I am down as his second contact for the council ( I have been on courses, got qualifications, insurance, etc)
please remember, that Honey bees ain't pets, they can Kill !
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Following overwhelming support at our AGM last year, we approached the council to ask what we needed to do to keep bees on our allotment site.
We had to:
Gain permission from the Allotments Team - we invited the Allotment Liaison Officer on site and he chose where the apiary would be sited
Site the apiary in a communal area, not on an individual plot - our is in the community orchard area
Be members of the BBKA - which all 3 beekeepers are
Build an apiary fence at least 8 feet high - we have done that. There's a slideshow on our website www.courtlaneallotments.com (http://www.courtlaneallotments.com)
Have our own Public Liability Insurance - we have, through NSALG
Our apiary is also padlocked, and only the beekeepers have a key, to protect the hives from intruders.
We had our first honey last month, which sold out in minutes at our Spring Fair. Most of the plot holders are fully supportive of the bees being on site. Naturally, there are a few who are more nervous, but on an allotment site there are many forms of potentially stinging insects other than bees, and we had honey bees from local beehives visiting the site long before we got bees ourselves.
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I have a collection of white tailed bees... who have taken up residence in one of my daleks... it's not level and they go in at the base... as I noticed when I tried to move it the other day... :-\
Do I now need insurance... and a certificate... and a good smack! ;D
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Our allotments will not allow bees because it states in the rules that no livestock is allowed. are they really a livestock? commitee say because you are harvesting the honey this makes them a livestock.
I am not happy with any of this and think it's a nonesense surely we should be encouraging bees. i think the other committee members are afraid of swarms and people being stung, and health and safety (yawn, yawn). We kept bees at primary school when i was a child and we had no problems, infact to my surprise they have more hives now.
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I don't think they're legally livestock.
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As you are in Leicestershire Fi... you might want to contact your ARI mentor
dkenyon.ari@googlemail.com
who has a collection of factsheets he can post to you... specifically about bees on allotments.. :)
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Our allotments will not allow bees because it states in the rules that no livestock is allowed. are they really a livestock? commitee say because you are harvesting the honey this makes them a livestock.
I am not happy with any of this and think it's a nonesense surely we should be encouraging bees. i think the other committee members are afraid of swarms and people being stung, and health and safety (yawn, yawn). We kept bees at primary school when i was a child and we had no problems, infact to my surprise they have more hives now.
Bees are insects, not livestock!!
regarding your yawning regarding Health & Safety, please be aware that bees can ( and do) KILL.
regards, Tony, Norfolk Beekeeper.
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I have only had one approach for a plotholder to keep bees. It was agreed with our town council that he could on the following conditions:
1. He would need to put up fencing around his plot to stop others getting too close, kids being inquisitive etc.
2. A certificate for the bee keepers course.
3. Liability insurance.
This was 2 years ago but there are still no bee hives no site.
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I have just done a indepth beekeeping course and I am hoping to keep bees on my allotment next year. The motion to keep bees was passed at our AGM and the committee are busy writing up a policy so anyone who wants to keep bees has to abide by proper rules and regulations. They have also got to be a member of a beekeeping association and be insured. It is a complicated business keeping bees and it can be alarming for those members of the public who have not seen a swarm and can be panicked by them.
However, because of the trouble honey bees are in and the decrease in numbers, steps are being taken in Newcastle to try to encourage and support beekeepers. The council have a Bee positive campaign at the moment which I think is admirable. There is also an Allotment Bee Group who I have heard are supportive. My council operate next door to Newcastle so I am hoping they too will follow suit in giving support to beekeepers.
Tony I think you are being slightly alarmist to say that bees can kill, and though stricly speaking that is possible if someone has an allergy to bee stings, but we have been taught that it is very unlikely because the percentage of those in danger is minute. Those in the know up here in the North East have never heard of anyone being killed by bee stings. busy_lizzie
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Hi Tony, Hi all, :)
I always discuss the presence of wild bees on my plots with plot neighbours and check so I would be aware if they had known allergies, So far no-one has.
I found a suitable course and have a space I could fence that would be suitable but I can`t have a years experience of keeping bees until after I could keep bees for one year.
Col
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Tony I think you are being slightly alarmist to say that bees can kill, and though stricly speaking that is possible if someone has an allergy to bee stings, but we have been taught that it is very unlikely because the percentage of those in danger is minute. Those in the know up here in the North East have never heard of anyone being killed by bee stings. busy_lizzie
several horses and dogs have died this year from bee stings, I wasn't being alarmist, I was stating the truth!!
http://www.bbka.org.uk/files/library/statement_-_sussex_horses_die_from_bee_stings_28-6-2011_1309338319.pdf
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2014734/Dog-stung-death-swarm-bees-chase-owners-home.html
and one human tragedy in the US
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1378771/Swarm-bees-sting-Steele-couple-death-south-Texas-ranch.html
I could post more links, but you get the picture?
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Hi Tony, Hi all, :)
I always discuss the presence of wild bees on my plots with plot neighbours and check so I would be aware if they had known allergies, So far no-one has.
I found a suitable course and have a space I could fence that would be suitable but I can`t have a years experience of keeping bees until after I could keep bees for one year.
Col
you could always keep them on my mates plot in Norwich, ( he's ticked all the boxes ) and get your experience with him?
let me know, I can arrange a meeting ( I'm sure he'd be willing to Mentor you )
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Hi Tony, Thanks for the links. Please don't think I am not being respectful to your posts, but we don't have killer bees in this country like they do in the USA. I believe the US undertook an experiment in the past and shipped in bees from various parts of the world, Africa being one of them. This was a bad mistake when it was found they had transported a really bad strain of aggresive bees. I am sure you will agree the US have not been exemplary as far as their treatment of bees is concerned and are at present shipping bees from Australia because of the growing incidence of colony collapse disorder in their country.
I am aware that bees loath horses or anything furry, thinking they are bears, so it is not surprising they would attack those poor creatures. No responsible beekeepr would allow them near a hive, as it would be asking for trouble. Bee keeping should not be undertaken lightly and without proper training, but apart from the inevitable stings, bees should also not be classed as killers. It is hard in the normal scheme of things to get permission to keep bees even if you are responsible, without having to deal with that prejudice.
Please don't take offence as I know you are the experienced beekeeper and I am only starting off, but everything I have learnt and read and been lectured about disagrees with the view that bees are killers. However I would be very interested to hear more if you have other links. Thanks, busy_lizzie
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I along with many others are very nervous of bees.I have learnt to respect them but I feel if there are any hives near me I want them to be in competent hands.
Enjoy your bees but best to take good advice :)
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Please don't take offence as I know you are the experienced beekeeper and I am only starting off, but everything I have learnt and read and been lectured about disagrees with the view that bees are killers. However I would be very interested to hear more if you have other links. Thanks, busy_lizzie
Hi Lizzie, here's a link you might want to read
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4534
the beekeeping forum is a great place for info, esp for new beekeepers! ( I've got the same forum name on there)
I ALWAYS carry an epipen in my beekeeping toolbox ( available on prescription from your G.P.
not for me, but if anyone else is stung and has a bad reaction, and I'd only use it after speaking to ambulance crew / controller)
don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put anyone off, but to make folk aware that bees ain't cuddly pets, but are defensive creatures.
I've got 6 colonies, 4 of them on allotments, 2 in back garden. I do have alternative sites if they ever become aggressive, and I would then re-queen asap.
good luck with your beekeeping, and if you need any advice, feel free to ask on here, or join the beekeepingforum.co.uk where you will be welcomed !!
rgds, Tony
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Thanks Tony, Will do. busy_lizzie