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Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: macmac on April 28, 2011, 16:25:27
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We grow lots of beans and a couple of years ago I grew butter beans next to climbing Borlotti.I saved seed but when we grew the next years butter beans from saved seed the resulting beans where mostly black not white.
My idea this year is to grow french one side of a row of canes and climbing borlotti along the other side.Would this be ok ? We dry the borlotti for stews etc and eat the french fresh
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I'm not 100% sure but I think beans do cross pollinate, so you may end up with frelottis, or bornch beans. I grew two kinds of runner beans one year, can't remember what they were but one had red flowers and purple beans, the other white flowers and beans. The beans next year from the saved beans were all sorts of colours.
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I know that runner beans and butter beans cross pollinate. Would be interested to hear if Borlotti's did. I think the standard French beans are generally ok. But I'm sure someone will be along shortly....... :)
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As you say... runners and broads are always at it... but French are prudish... fairly certain Barlotti are in the French camp... :-X
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Thanks I'll give it a go :)
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Frenchies self-pollinate, so no worries there. Runners are right sluts, and do it with any old pollen. I've more experience with broadies (don't like runners), and while they screw around merrily, if I plant two varieties at opposite ends of the plot, they don't hybridise that you'd notice. I haven't tried it with runners.
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Runner, French and Borlotti beans are all members of the same family, Phaseolus vulgaris, so will cross pollinate. Not heard of Runner and Broad beans crossing as Broads are a differant family, Vicia faba, ;D
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As others have said already, Runnerbeans are very likely to cross with other runnerbeans, as are broad beans. French beans can cross but that is much rarer. I have found more incidents of it in recent years though, perhaps due to our healthy earth wasp and bumble bee population. Runnerbeans can very rarely cross with French beans, giving rise to red flowered French Beans in the F1 generation.
The problem is the butterbean. There are butterbeans that are vulgaris lunatus (unlikely that you have grown Lima Beans here but they are available in health food shops). Then there are runnerbeans (ph coccineus)and there are also French beans (ph vulgaris) and both of them produce huge white seeds which are called butterbeans. How they might have crossed depends on what species your butterbeans were. If they were ph coccineus ie runnerbeans, they are unlikely to have crossed with your borlotti, but more likely with any other runnerbean grown in a quarter mile circle, or as far as bees will travel.
Borlotti beans and French beans are both ph vulgaris, they can cross, but the danger is not very great. You should be fine for this year.
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Frenchies self-pollinate, so no worries there. Runners are right sluts, and do it with any old pollen. I've more experience with broadies (don't like runners), and while they screw around merrily, if I plant two varieties at opposite ends of the plot, they don't hybridise that you'd notice. I haven't tried it with runners.
You have a way with words Mr Brenchley and you certainly made me laugh out loud!! ;D ;D ;D
Duke
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Phaseolus Vulgaris covers many beans kidney beans,french beans,wax beans and the dry beans, all belong in here.
Runner beans are are Phaseolus coccineus family, and have several differences to above. They climb clockwise which is differnet to other beans , the cotyledons remain underground, the first leaves to show are true leaves,they do not cross with other beans , only with themselves.They need bees etc to pollinate.
Phaseolus Lunatus is the butter bean / lima family
Broad bena/fava beans belong in the Vicia faba family
All of the above will cross within their families but will not cross with a differnt family.
Your Borlotti beans are Vulgaris, butter beans are Lunatus, they cannot cross, your cross pollination has to have come from a neighbours bean Same with the ones you plan for this year, they are both Vulgaris and they will cross.
XX Jeannine
Typed as Galina was typingButter beans are often misnamed in the UK I found, always wise to check exactly what they are.
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most of the butterbean types we grow - spagna and gigantes, are runner beans and not lima beans, so will cross with normal runners. Only a problem if you want to save seed for sowing next year
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I don't want to get into a big, boring lecture on taxonomy here but think I should clear up a couple of things.
French, borlotti, pinto, wax, etc beans are not the same family, they are cultivars of the same species (Phaseolus vulgaris).
Lima/butter beans (Phaseolus lunatus) and runner beans (Phaseolus coccineus) are in the same genus as French beans (Phaseolus).
It is possible for species in the same genus to hybridise and there are many papers on hybridisation in Phaseolus, including the 'father' of genetics, Mendel.
The above beans and broad/field beans (Vicia faba), and other legumes such as peas (Pisum sativum) are in the same family, Fabaceae.
It is also possible for some species in the same family to hybridise, although it is less frequent and the offspring are usually sterile, as seen in cyprinid fish and equines.
....Told you it was boring! ;D
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But I'm sure someone will be along shortly....... :)
told you so ;) :D ;D
I've been trying to figure out how to grow my Lima beans (from seeds of italy) and my butter beans (swaps/self saved), and think my only plan, if I want to save the seeds, is to grow one on the plot and the others in the garden!
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We have grown cherokee beans for about 6 or 7 years now and we save our own seed.Every year we get some plants that produce a bean of the same size but flatter than the original and also more stringy. As soon as we see them we whip them out.Have also noticed that some of the saved beans are flatter and more straight edged than the original so this year have only sown the perfect ones.
will let you know the outcome
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I don't want to get into a big, boring lecture on taxonomy here but think I should clear up a couple of things.
French, borlotti, pinto, wax, etc beans are not the same family, they are cultivars of the same species (Phaseolus vulgaris).
Lima/butter beans (Phaseolus lunatus) and runner beans (Phaseolus coccineus) are in the same genus as French beans (Phaseolus).
It is possible for species in the same genus to hybridise and there are many papers on hybridisation in Phaseolus, including the 'father' of genetics, Mendel.
The above beans and broad/field beans (Vicia faba), and other legumes such as peas (Pisum sativum) are in the same family, Fabaceae.
It is also possible for some species in the same family to hybridise, although it is less frequent and the offspring are usually sterile, as seen in cyprinid fish and equines.
....Told you it was boring! ;D
I didn't think so... found it quite informative thanks... (better than what's on the radio ATM) :-X
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Is it bean pornography and percy filth
Or growers with over sexed minds?
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We have grown cherokee beans for about 6 or 7 years now and we save our own seed.Every year we get some plants that produce a bean of the same size but flatter than the original and also more stringy. As soon as we see them we whip them out.Have also noticed that some of the saved beans are flatter and more straight edged than the original so this year have only sown the perfect ones.
will let you know the outcome
Shirl, thanks for posting as this has jogged my memory! I grew these last year for the 1st time and noticed some were flatter than others,and the flatter ones had a paler colour maybe a bit speckled, but as I hadn't grown them before I didn't know which kind was truer to type. They all tasted good tho!
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I want to try and save some of the HSL seeds to pass on in the seed swop but would like to make sure they are ok and true.
If I growed each variety in a wigwam and then wrapped some fleece around the wigwam would that be a good idea? :-\
I love the idea of these seed swops and hope one day to be confident to offer to become a seed guardian for the HSL but as with most things there's lots to learn! :-[
I also found the posts Interesting!
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If they're French beans you won't need the fleece. If they're runner or BB's, you need to think about pollination; it's no use shutting out the insects you need.
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Cheers, yes they are French. :)
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Cheers, yes they are French. :)
Here is the url for the Heritage Seed Library seed saving guidelines for French Beans:
http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/members/hsl_pdfs/8_FrenchBeans.pdf
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Thank you galina. That was a very interesting link. :)
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Sylvan, you are welcome.
Uncle F, thank you for the taxonomy lesson.
All, i'd like to correct a mistake in an earlier post. I wrote: 'There are butterbeans that are vulgaris lunatus ' and it should have been 'There are butterbeans that are phaseolus lunatus'. Sorry about that. Slip of the keyboard :)
Jeannine, yes because we can't grow the Lima beans very successfully in the UK, the name 'butterbean' got transferred to other beans, mainly runnerbeans. It is strange though that these other white beans seem to hail from Italy and Greece, where they could actually grow Lima beans.
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I just grow different Frenchies side by side, and they've never crossed yet.
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Taxonomy is always a tricky subject that bores some people to death. When I was at Uni many moons ago we had it drilled into us with no escape! ;D The worst thing is taxonomists arguing all the time and changing names, species to sub-species, etc, as has recently happened with Epipactis and is always happening with invertebrates. Even my old lecturers used to moan about it! ;D
One of my lecturers was undertaking research with one of his PhD students to develop pinto beans that were cold tolerant for growing as a commercial crop in the UK. Unfortunately I've no idea how far along they are or if they were successful at all as they were still working on it when I left and there was a big shake up with staff at the time.
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I found french beans only cross in bad years - like 2007/8/9. Never had this happen in the previous 10 years despite growing at least 4 varieties and sometimes as many as 8.
It may be a coincidence but I doubt it - stress is well known to push sexual reproduction towards more offspring (and often smaller offspring), so it wouldn't surprise me if it pushed the balance away from self-pollination.
I suppose the pollinators might also be more desperate and hard-working in a poor year.
It remains to be seen if the mixed/mediocre 2010 summer made crosses happen - but I have so few true strains left that is will be hard to tell (especially since the cherokee ones arrived pre-crossed last year).
On the other hand nearly all of the crosses are at least as good as the originals and some are prettier too.
Cheers.
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Runners and French beans must be able to cross because the new variety Moonlight is one though I think they have to go to extremes to make this happen.
I grew quite a lot of different varieties of french bean last year and some seem to need more rogueing out than others. I grew one variety last year which hardly produced two beans the same. I reject any changes of colour, size, shape etc etc.
I do not find the science behind the growing boring thanks for putting us straight. Though I do find the changing of names confusing. What for example happened to compositae and umbelliferae? While Apiaceae is confusing since it is too like Apiary.
I have been breeding runners for many years in the hope of getting one that will tolerate my dry soil conditions better. White/black beans are rather difficult to work with, but coloured beans can be selected for particular patterns on the seed. Since I am only wanting a small number of beans I cover the flowers and hand pollinate. What I call OB (own beans) grow very well in my garden but turned up their noses when I tried them in the allotment.
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What I call OB (own beans) grow very well in my garden but turned up their noses when I tried them in the allotment.
now that is what I'd call VERY localised. Still interesting though!
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What for example happened to compositae and umbelliferae?
The umbelliferae are now the apiaceae, the compositae are now the asteraceae. Don't ask me why; I can never fathom the taxonomic mind.
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I grow trail beans [french type but actually from US] and runners-painted Lady together, and have sown own runner seed this year. I don't actually mind if they cross as I expect them to be edible. But obviously they wouldn't fulfill any seedbank criteria. Hadn't thought of that as I only pass seed around the family. Will be interested to see what I get... if anything since I sowed them outside in a fit of madness during the heatwave. One up but frost might have shaken then the other night. They were covered.... ???
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Runner, French and Borlotti beans are all members of the same family, Phaseolus vulgaris, so will cross pollinate. Not heard of Runner and Broad beans crossing as Broads are a differant family, Vicia faba, ;D
Runners are P coccineus, not vulgaris. Vulgaris habitually fertilises before flower opening so rare crosses even within its own species. All the climbing french beans, and most of the drying beans are vulgaris and will generally stay true to type even when grown up the same canes together although you will get some (but not much) outcrossing, a few beans per plant....
P coccineus is insect pollinated after flower opening and outbreeds within its species a lot as a result. You will not keep a runner bean strain pure on an allotment, but if a big bunch of you self save selectively you'll end up with a local strain (landrace) that is perfectly suited to your location. Giganda beans appear to be a coccineus and should therefore be isolated from runner beans until more data is available.
The other Phaseolus species in cultivatioin is lunatus, the lima/moon/butter beans... there are a lot of things called butterbeans that aren't lunatus though. Habit is much like vulgaris, interspecies hybrids are rare adn I doubt if even on a big site more than a handful would be growing a lunatus strain anyway..
Broad beans are Vicia faba and only a distant relation to the other beans (as close as say soya). They are insect pollinated and crossbreed freely between strains, once again self-selection and saving across a whole site would quickly lead to an adapted landrace...
chrisc
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I've had a few French bean crosses. I had borlotti and pea bean cross in 2007, and i;ve grown these on. i ended up with two strains - black cannellini looking beans and big red round beans (very good too). Last year the red beans produced a few pods with beans that looked identical to the original pea bean (very distinctive). I haven't grown them for years and nobody on the plot rows them at all...........I thought of growing them on as Prince Harry beans
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;D at you Bugloss!
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I've had a few French bean crosses. I had borlotti and pea bean cross in 2007, and i;ve grown these on. i ended up with two strains - black cannellini looking beans and big red round beans (very good too). Last year the red beans produced a few pods with beans that looked identical to the original pea bean (very distinctive). I haven't grown them for years and nobody on the plot rows them at all...........I thought of growing them on as Prince Harry beans
Yeah, I've got a few beans that might well be crosses too.... one of them appears to be a black-seeded pea-bean which I'm trying to select down and stabilise, you will also get a small but significant number of mutation sports in beans, frequently showing up as colour inversions (I've got a colour inverted Bird Egg I might try to grow on), it's still generally rare that they outbreed compared to runner beans where it's almost guaranteed that they will.
chrisc
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Chrissc, I have done exactly that with a variety of cultivars that show inversed seed coats. Without fail, they have come back the right colour version the following year. This type of mutaion is only active in the generation it happens.
A friend of mine posed this question to Prof Myers from Oregon State University and if you like, I can dig up his reply and PM to you.
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Prince Harry bean? Very good :)