Allotments 4 All
General => Top Tips => Topic started by: GeeGee on April 25, 2011, 17:41:36
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Hi, I'm new here and would love some advice please. I have just acquired a new allotment (ie all the allotments are brand new, the site having been a field of some kind of cereal prior to the council acquiring it). This is my first day there and the old crop is growing very nicely!!!! However, because we have had so much sun in the last couple of weeks the ground is as hard as concrete. Honestly, even my 22 year old son, who goes to the gym can't get a spade or fork into the darn stuff. We will eventually have water there but to date only the blue piping is sticking out of the ground. We will also eventually have access to lots of horse manure compliments of daughter's five horses, but at the moment I would imagine the fresh stuff is not okay to use yet.
I spent the morning pulling up the old crop and I have left it laying on top of the ground (having first removed any thistles) in the hope the ground won't dry out any more - if that is possible! The soil is clay and has the biggest amount of flint and stones I have ever come across. I wasn't going to go anywhere near a rotavator due to the weeds it will create but under the circumstances would this be the best thing and then cover it with weed suppressant until I can work it in sections to removed the stones and weeds? Or does anyone have any better ideas/suggestions? Many thanks.
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What I do with all my new plots is to cover with cardboard. If you have access to well rotted manure that isn't animopyralid contaminated - then add that before the cardboard. Then when you come to plant stuff out, plant through it using a bulb planter. Potatoes, squashes and lots of other crops can be started in modules and planted straight through. The advantage with this is that it keeps the water in and starts to add organic material into the soil for next season. I'd dig out all perennial weeds as soon as you see any.
Stuff like onions and carrots, prep a small bed after watering it well the night before, and sow direct - add some home made or shop bought multipurpose to the surface to prevent capping.
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Thanks for the info. Well I know my manure will not be contaminated. My daughter's horses are like her babies and get better treatment that anyone else in her life! ;D I know she sources all her hay with strict controls on the quality and she would never allow weedkillers or any form of chemical onto the paddocks that her beloved babies graze on! She also checks her bedding does not contain any form of chemicals, just in case it might affect the horses.
My only problem is that although the beloveds are producing the muck by the hundredweight every day, I don't actually have any that is rotted down yet. We had been lovingly stockpiling it, covering it to keep it lovely and warm and then the farmer who we rent the yard from decided to come and empty all the poo bins after having left them for months and after we told him we wanted to keep it!!!! So it will be a few weeks/months before we are nicely inundated with the poo again!
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Wait until it rains then the soil will loosen up
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That makes a lot of sense. However, I'm a bit impatient to get going. So am I doing the right thing by pulling up all the old cereal crop and leaving it on top of the 'concrete' until it does rain enough to enable me to get some kind of tool into the ground? If I am then that means I can continue crop pulling and weed pulling till it rains.
Or would I be better off pulling the old cereal crop putting it on the compost and covering the ground with something?
I just wish my dear dad was still with me. He was the oracle on gardening. Used to be in his veg garden every Sunday morning. Mind you by the time I can first remember anything he had been working the soil for years and it was immaculate - hence why I'm a bit green as to what to do with this stuff from the start off. Also we lived in Norfolk then and all I can remember is that the soil in dad's garden was almost black and really easy to dig. Whereas here in Kent the soil just seems to be heavy and grows stones like they are the latest fashion. ;D I now know why dad complained about the soil when he moved down here and gave up vegi gardening. :P
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Hi GeeGee.
If you're keen to get started but the soil's like iron (been there! ;D) you could try a digging hoe or azada. We've had various threads about these - they're great on tough ground. People were buying them cheap on Amazon: http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,66677.0.html (http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,66677.0.html)
You're lucky to have so much horse manure - it'll be great. If the cereal left-overs are straw-like stubble, yes, I'd probably leave them on. If you want to supress weeds and condition soil but not grow this summer, you could maybe use fresh manure as a mulch on fallow areas.
If you want to grow crops on the whole area, maybe bring in some well-rotted stuff, so you can plant now, and leave your fresh manure to rot down in a big heap.
People also do the 'hot bed' thing where the grow on soil/compost above a decomposing bed of manure, which warms the soil as it rots. Never done it myself, but thought you might like to make use of all that muck!
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congrats on the plot
remember its going to take a few weeks to get get seedlings ready to transplant but
You have a few options like lasagna method gardening
http://organicgardening.about.com/od/startinganorganicgarden/a/lasagnagarden.htm
You could look at hot boxing
http://www.ehow.com/how_4882086_make-hot-box-gardening.html
But you need to try and get the moisture into your plot and surpress the weeds personally (and i am not a expert) i would look at dividing the plot into 2.
1st Side i would stick a good layer of nice horse poop and hay water and cover with membrane which will let water in and block sunlight. And leave for as long as you can but when you cant wait any longer either go for the lasagna method, hot box or cut blocks out of your membrane slot in raised beds though the hole (leave a couple of inches of membrane inside the raised bed) and fill with imported soil. Speak to your local council and find out where all your household green waste goes in some cases you can go there and help yourself to 'soil improver' aka compost :) You might also be able to get some free deliveries to the site.
2nd side i would look at covering with membrane but uncover when you go up and just attack and dig over as much as you can then plant with loads of spuds still time to get late croppers in which will help break up the soil.
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Also we lived in Norfolk then and all I can remember is that the soil in dad's garden was almost black and really easy to dig.
I love Norfolk.
I spent two years in the Breckland, growing trees on a Forestry Commission nursery. I loved the area, but am back in the ancestral home in Cambridgeshire (on the worst clay in the country). As far as the land is concerned, I wish I had stayed there. My pseudo name on here is the name of the house in Norfolk where I lived.
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I had a new plot a couple of years ago and it was also like concrete. I found that the rain softened it up and so used to pour a bucket full on the the area I was going to dig the next day I only managed about a square metre in a day.
In the end I dug holes and filled them with manure or compost and in effect grew the plants in pots except they went down rather than up. Courgettes, beans, potatoes, tomatoes, cucumber etc etc all did very well this way.
They also did a good job of breaking up the soil and it was much easier to dig in the autumn. I would also suggest growing in grow bags, raised beds etc etc.
I have since added a lot of bio matter.
I also grew things in double rows and then a path to cut down on the requirement for digging, onions and carrots did very well that way.
I only dug about 1/4 of the plot but managed to cover it with plants.
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Either kill the cereal with Roundup OR cover it in old carpet or black polythene to kill it. The weedkiller option is quickest.
If you really want to cultivate it before it rains then think around some sort of plough, sometimes large rotavators have plough attachments. Ask your local hire centre for advice. OR get a mattock, its about the only way you will get a tool into the ground, however patience is a virtue. Why not start plants in pots and suchlike while you wait for rain so you can work the plot.
After your muck has composted for 12 months it will be very usefull. Your clay will need all the fibre you can add, straw, leafmould, compost, well rotted manure.
How about concentrating on a few raised beds to which you add compost to get started and actually growing things. I know the compost or soil will cost a bit but you would be concentrating on one area and it will improve the soil.
I know of allotments in Nuneaton where I once lived, that a local farmworker with his own tractor used to rotovate peoples plots for them , at a price, the tractor having the umph you need for your job. I remember the old pedestrian controlled iron horse that had a single furrow plough, that would probably do it, and be in demand from other plot holders.
Enjoy.
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Another idea - get some old pallets and make yourself three or four compost bins to compost all that manure. Once you have it the farmer wont be able to take it. They will get nicely hot and you can put some soil or rotted compost on top and plant marrows or cucumbers and such-like on them. They will love it.
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Also we lived in Norfolk then and all I can remember is that the soil in dad's garden was almost black and really easy to dig.
I love Norfolk.
I spent two years in the Breckland, growing trees on a Forestry Commission nursery. I loved the area, but am back in the ancestral home in Cambridgeshire (on the worst clay in the country). As far as the land is concerned, I wish I had stayed there. My pseudo name on here is the name of the house in Norfolk where I lived.
I second that...worst clay in the country!!!
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Get yourself a nice mattock! Bulldog make a good one and I use mine all the time.
It's perfect for breaking rock hard ground, digging up trees, skimming off turf and weeds - I've even used mine to prune the fuschia!
So there you are, a mattock's what you need - that'll show it who's boss!
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Helping my daughter with a rock hard new garden in Germany, I noticed a pick axe belonging to her husband, and spent a week using that. It seemed to have just the right weight, sharp point and follow through to break the concrete clay into lumps, lever them out of the ground, and set her children to batter the lumps into dust with hammers and so on, while I moved on. I tipped sackfuls of compost and manure into the resulting rubble and planted raspberries which have actually done very well.
It was very slow, though.
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My plot is like yours clay and flint and my mattock is my favourite tool. You should find dwarf french beans, radishes, turnips, sweetcorn, chard, New Zealand spinach, jerusalem artichokes, sunflowers, beetroot and brassicas under net can be planted now without much modification to your soil structure. Squashes, peas and hungry beans will need a well manured trench or bed, you might get away with using the more loose, less turdy manure from your pile. Think about making raised beds this winter for next year, I have raised beds on half my plot. Have fun.
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I'd suggest that you take off (cut or pull up) the cereal crop (keep this and compost it) and cover area with black plastic, this helps draw up the moisture. The best black plastic is that used for a damp proof course in house building and from a builders merchant, Use a 'potato fork' ie one with wide tines, to dig and dig small areas and then recover these until you plant. Dwarf beans and courgettes can be sown up to the end of June. A large rotovator should cope with stones but 'cultivators' like the Mantis wont
Look on this year as getting things prepared
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If the old crop is growing well I think you should be very positive seems to suggest that the soil is not so bad so persevere I am sure you will win.
My plot neighbour used a pick axe on his and I borrowed it but could hardly lift it, I realised that I was going to do myself an injury if I continued.
Can you get recycled green waste cheaply, it is great for conditioning the soil?
I hope you get some water soon because bringing in for your seed beds will have a bit of a strain, I think you will have to grow everything in pots first.
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I would pray you get the rain forecast for this weekend then you should be able to dig.
All the suggestions above will work.
I had the same problem and the first season grew a lot of potatoes which I took a hole out with a bulb planter popped in the spud and back filled with multipurpose compost.
However with the lack of rain maybe continuing I would suggest using a covering of polythene or cardboard for a while till it is time to start earthing up.
Although the top is very hard you will probably find under the surface it is not quite as dry either
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Saturating with water, rain is best. I suggest that you forget about growing anything this year and prepare the soil for next.
Mind you, it is not too late to plant some things.Depends how experienced you are.
Get some manure on top of the land at this time of year, if you are prepping for next year even raw manure will be fine.
Best of all clear out any deep rooted weeds like docks, dandylions and nettles. (hope there is no bindweed) If there is encourage it and then spray it.
The raw manure on top will kill off most other weeds then develop into fertiliser.
It is hard starting off but best tip......
Take lots of photos of it as a dreadful site then in a few years time you can look at them and show every one else what you have done.
If the whole plot looks daunting cover some with black plastic to stop it getting worse, then work it bit at a time. That black plastic can be re-used later so wont be wasted.
OH yes, get a chair.
You will need some where to sit to take a break.
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Wow! Been away from the forum for a few weeks. Haven't had any broadband - BT Grr! But that's for another forum! ;D
Thank you all for your wonderful and helpful suggestions.
I've managed to pull up half the old crop by hand, leaving that on the surface and putting all the weeds in a separate pile, which later have been brought home to burn in the garden incinerator.
The mattock sounds like an excellent idea, problem is I really don't think I could wield one, I had an accident a few years back. Don't laugh too hard now! :o I was racing across the horse paddocks to get back home because I was late for work. I tripped in a rabbit hole, flew just like superman and landed full force on my arm. I was plastered (no funny comments now!!! :P ) for 33 wks and it took two years of physio to get any function back. I can use it now but there still is not any strength in it and if I use it too much I suffer for days, sometimes weeks after. So have to be sensible what I do. Can't even get OH to do it because he has just had carpal tunnel op so that would be more than mean of me to even contemplate let alone ask him. Son has gone back to uni so he's no use at mo! Darnation! Can't get hold of a good man when you need him! ;D
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Zigzag.
I was thinking along the lines you have suggested. Forget about planting this year and just concentrate on getting the soil into good condition for next year. Give me time to actually make up my mind what I'm going to grow too. Hey! I'm a woman, what do you expect regarding me needing all that time to make up my mind!?!?!? ;D
You have really cheered me up by telling me I can put raw manure on top as a mulch. My dear old dad would never touch raw manure, but if I think about it logically his garden was already full of veg so he wouldn't would he.
I'm off to the local DIY centre to get some really strong black bags. Then I'm down to the horses every evening to collect their daily presents to me. OH will love me, the car could smell beautiful!!! :o
Actually, I'm hoping that if I seal the bags well enough the smell shouldn't be too bad. If this method of transport works then I shall set up some compost bins on the allotment and just ferry the fresh poo to there so old farmer can't pinch it.
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Dare I suggest a raised bed made of straw? There are at least 2 threads in Edible Plants discussing this, one of them mine. The point is that you can lay out your straw on top of the hard clay, wet it thoroughly and wait a bit, then make planting holes for quite a varied list of plants.
The straw stifles the weeds, softens the ground (as you water it), enables you to at least grow something, and leaves you with well rotted compost/mulch at the end of the season to dig in as the ground softens in the autumn and allows you to cultivate it.
Of course, this depends on whether you can get straw bales at a reasonable price, get them laid out on your ground, and on whether or not you have water laid on. Eg:
http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s186/strawbaleman/?action=view¤t=P6040322.jpg
http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s186/strawbaleman/?action=view¤t=P6040326.jpg
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Artichoke.
Brilliant suggestion. However, at mo straw is really hard to get hold of. Wrong time of the year and all last season's that would've been cheaper to start with has now gone completely or you would need a mortgage to buy it. Have been trying to source hay for the horses because our normal supplier is out completely, can't find any anywhere in this area, unless I wish to pay in excess of £7 a bale, plus delivery charges. Ouch!
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Ah, that's a shame. I bought mine in the autumn for £3 including delivery.
Do you know any farmers with spoilt hay who simply want to get rid of it? I have a generous neighbour who has left some free bales on my plot, and I have turned them into mulch and a coldframe. People warn you about weed seeds, but as we get weeds growing whatever we do, it doesn't scare me off. I love to have a few bales of hay about.
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Zigzag/Davyboi.
Rain? I've heard of the concept but what exactly is this thing called rain? ???
The old weathermen keep promising it might hit the SE of England, but the best we have had is a spit that dries up as soon as it hits the ground!
I even suggested I went outside and did a rain dance, cos apart from the allotment needing it, the horses do too - for the grass to grow so they have lots of yummy free food and also the hard ground is playing havoc with their poor legs and feet.
OH laughed and said if I did that I'd probably scare the neighbours and they might even phone someone to come and take me away! :o
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Artichoke!!!!
Are your psychic! :o You must have been reading my mind.
As I was typing the last post it suddenly occurred to me that our hay supplier does/or at least did have a few spoiled rounds. He actually looked at them to see if we could utilise bits of them for the horses when they are in the paddock cos the grass is going fast too at the mo.
Would have to work out the logistics cos they are enormous (about 5ft in diameter and 5ft high) and weigh a ton.
Whilst he could get his lorry onto the allotment not sure if we would be able to roll them the rest of the way without damaging someone else's plot. I shall have to do a survey as there are many plots still not even started so it may be possible.
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if your ground is hard, but you can get a fork into it, then don't try digging it, you'll end up with great big lumps that are difficult to break up. Use the fork like you would when aerating a lawn and push it down every 3 - 4 inches , move it back and forth,over the area you want, and then hoe. It should break up nicely. Works for me anyway
Not such a great method if the plot is weedy, especially with couch grass, but you may be able to hand weed.
actually it's pouring with rain here, so you may be in luck :)
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Better make this my last post for the mo, OH would like to go out to lunch! :)
So quick set of questions
What is the consensus of opinion.
I plan to remove rest of old crop.
Cover with tons of raw horsey poo, and (if I can get it) roll out the hay on top of that.
Or should I put the hay under the horsey poo?
Then cover it with heavy duty black plastic OR weed suppressant OR cardboard.
Which would be the best of the above?
Bearing in mind there is no water there yet and so would only get maybe 50 litres up there at a time (in the horsey water carriers). Any more would be too much! I know the water carriers when full are really heavy and so I will need a chair (as very wisely suggested earlier) to sit down after dragging them from the car to the plot.
Just watch, now I have posted that we haven't had any rain in ages it will pour down for the next 20wks! :o
Better go! OH is getting hungry and until I've grown a few veggies I suppose I better treat him to lunch out. ;D
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I don't know much about hay but will it contain grass seeds?
I used grass mulch on my potatoes and it ended up seeding ???
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Bugloss2009
That would be great idea, but unfortunately the ground is chock full of flint and stones. Tried digging the fork in and I kid you not it would not even go in a full inch! It is certainly going to be fun clearing this plot. ;D
Actually really looking forward to the challenge.
Well we were very hopeful of rain today as it happens, weathermen said rain, even thunder! :o ;D
So far 2minutes of spit and now its sunny again. :(
Must go or OH will kill me and eat me instead if he doesn't go to lunch soon. :o ;D
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Whereabouts are you, it is raining here in Enfield, north London. Bank holiday Monday is usually good for a good downpour. Patience, enjoy your lunch.
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I <borrowed> a half plot that was like that a couple of years ago. In the end I used a pick axe to dig big holes, filled them up with compost and manure, mad a little mound, and grew squashes in them. Like having underground flower pots :)
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Borlotti.
I'm in North Kent. It actually did rain a bit yesterday (whilst we were having lunch). Problem is because the ground is so dry and hard the rain just didn't sink in. :(
Worse still it seemed to have rained in sections. :o Had to do a few errands after lunch and some places looked like they hadn't even had a drop.
It has been overcast for most of the day today, normally you would expect to go out and get wet, but the clouds just don't seem to want to let go of their load.
Ummmmmm. A bank holiday Monday. Now there's a thought! :) You're dead right there Borlotti it does normally rain on a bank holiday.
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RAIN!!!!! RAIN, RAIN, RAIN! YEAH! ;D ;D ;D
Being a mum with three grown up children that produce more washing than anyone could possibly imagine, it seems strange for me to wish for this lovely wet stuff, but I'm so delighted I could sing and dance around the garden at the mo.
Good for the garden and hopefully will make the grass in the paddocks grow too.
Problem is it never seems to comes at the right time. :( If it continues it could mess up the hay making which I will not be happy about either. Gosh I'm an awkward so and so. Don't tell OH I said that though! ;D ;D