Allotments 4 All
General => The Shed => Topic started by: manicscousers on February 07, 2011, 15:09:33
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Went to a school today that has requested some advice about growing fruit and veg.
They already have 2 large beds made and planted up with fruit and herbs, these were made last year.
The beds are made from very old railway sleepers that we could see were still seeping. We asked the head to look up about seepage and said we wouldn't eat anything grown in them.
He seems to think we are over reacting, what do you think ?
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We wouldn't either Mal. I'm surprised they used them in the first place. I wonder who advised them?
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couldn't get him to tell me ???
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manicscousers,
As someone who works with these timbers a lot, I would say not to eat anything either.
The seepage could contain all sorts of nasties and then they could be sued for lack of care due to poor hygiene in the garden (workplace).
Advise him to either wrap or replace them as a matter of urgency.
Overreaction on your part is safer than sorting out the claims after.
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we've advised all the edibles should be taken out and placed somewhere else. the two beds , we hope, will be used as a sensory garden and a butterfly,/ bee/ bird garden. we'll just have to see if he listened :)
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Possibly wishful thinking on your part.
Just have to wait and see if good advice prevails.
Good luck with that one.
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It might seem a bit drastic, but I think you should write to the education section of the council. This will ensure that there is a written log of your concerns. If there was a problem at the school the head may say he invited some experts in to discuss the use of the beds and unless you have substantial poof of your advise, you could face some liability. Belt and braces seems to be the way forward rather then wait and see.
Regards
Bluecar
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Old sleepers were usually treated with Creosote and should be lined with a plastic or butyl membrane to prevent soil contamination. I certainly wouldn`t eat anything either.
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What bloody liability, they wanted advice you gave it, I would steer well clear now and make some of the parents aware of your advice, do they actually eat the food they grow. :-\ :( :( :(
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I think they did last year :P
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Culpable ignorance ...innit! :-X
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Bump.
You have to protect yourself. I know it's repeated information, but ....
It might seem a bit drastic, but I think you should write to the education section of the council. This will ensure that there is a written log of your concerns. If there was a problem at the school the head may say he invited some experts in to discuss the use of the beds and unless you have substantial poof of your advise, you could face some liability. Belt and braces seems to be the way forward rather then wait and see.
Regards
Bluecar
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I'll have a word with our environmental officer :)
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we've decided to do no more until the beds are either painted, there's a new, very expensive paint out to paint them with, or they are taken out altogether as children will still be looking after the plants in them.Our environmental officer is dealing with it, phew ;D
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Manics, I'm sure old railway sleepers are banned because of what they contain, but I'm not sure of the details. I think tonybloke might know.
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Thanks, unwashed, I'll :) pm him
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I'm guessing it wouldn't be a good idea to use them to build a storage bay on our allotment site for manure, woodchips etc.
The person heading our association sub committee showed me his plans today and I noticed used railway sleepers on the list. I think I need to broach that subject at the next general committee meeting I assumed it was going to be the unused ones!
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Kea, you could still use them but you should consider lining them first
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read this
http://www.railwaysleeper.com/railway%20sleeper%20treatments.htm
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That's the site I visited which started all this off :)
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Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers. And use Jeyes Fluid.
I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote. OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers? What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages? And how much is actually going to leach out? It's ignorably small, isn't it?
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it may be, melbourne, but if the schoolchildren get the stuff all over their clothes, would you want to wash the crap out?
also, in todays litigious society, ain't it better safe than sorry?
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it may be, melbourne, but if the schoolchildren get the stuff all over their clothes, would you want to wash the crap out?
also, in todays litigious society, ain't it better safe than sorry?
I take your point, but these aren't newly tarred sleepers. They're many years old - so old that they've been retired and removed by the railway, stored, and have ended up as a nice strong raised bed. Time and weather has long ago removed any surface stickiness.
Otherwise we'd fear to sit down on a bench that had once been painted or varnished for fear of the deadly chemicals that might suddenly leap out and overwhelm us. Should I perhaps not sit on the loo, for fear of the bleach with which it has been cleaned this morning? It's deadly poison, y'know.
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I would not even have the old ones in my garden..anywhere!
Could be 20,30 years or more of freight trains running over the top of them, leaking unknown ammounts of unknown chemicals onto them. Why would you buy old with their associated health risks when you can buy brand new to do the same job?
Steve...:)
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it may be, melbourne, but if the schoolchildren get the stuff all over their clothes, would you want to wash the crap out?
also, in todays litigious society, ain't it better safe than sorry?
I take your point, but these aren't newly tarred sleepers. They're many years old - so old that they've been retired and removed by the railway, stored, and have ended up as a nice strong raised bed. Time and weather has long ago removed any surface stickiness.
you missed this bit in the original post, then?
The beds are made from very old railway sleepers that we could see were still seeping.
Otherwise we'd fear to sit down on a bench that had once been painted or varnished for fear of the deadly chemicals that might suddenly leap out and overwhelm us. Should I perhaps not sit on the loo, for fear of the bleach with which it has been cleaned this morning? It's deadly poison, y'know.
painted and / or varnished benches, have a tendency to 'cure' and leave a hard, non-sticky coating, unlike creosote soaked sleepers!!
as for your fears r.e. bleach or other toilet cleaners, would you let a toddler / young child play with it?
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Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers. And use Jeyes Fluid.
I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote. OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers? What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages? And how much is actually going to leach out? It's ignorably small, isn't it?
As I stated before hand, I work with these types of sleeper and others. When I say we had to change the way we install them the reason for this is that they leach into the water table and we have to pay heavily in fines for this.
To use them in a school environment would be stupid, the kids are more prone to bugs as their systems are not fully developed yet.
I have used sleepers in my garden, and have ensured they are from a good source and have been wrapped with butyl liner before laying down. This way there is no leaching of toxins into the soil or food we eat.
If you don't believe the replies to this thread then look at the following link.
http://www.tec.org.au/safersolutions/a/63-creosote
Use with caution or find some new ones which are not soaked in this substance.
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Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers. And use Jeyes Fluid.
I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote. OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers? What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages? And how much is actually going to leach out? It's ignorably small, isn't it?
As I stated before hand, I work with these types of sleeper and others. When I say we had to change the way we install them the reason for this is that they leach into the water table and we have to pay heavily in fines for this.
To use them in a school environment would be stupid, the kids are more prone to bugs as their systems are not fully developed yet.
I have used sleepers in my garden, and have ensured they are from a good source and have been wrapped with butyl liner before laying down. This way there is no leaching of toxins into the soil or food we eat.
If you don't believe the replies to this thread then look at the following link.
http://www.tec.org.au/safersolutions/a/63-creosote
Use with caution or find some new ones which are not soaked in this substance.
thanks for an informative post, not just biased rhetoric.
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Thanks for that, landiman, I'm going to print all this to refer to at the meeting on saturday :)
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When you can get brand new clean sleepers from Wickes for a reasonable price, there's no reason not to flippin use them!
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When theses treated sleepers warm up the substance they weep seems more vitrous (sic) than Creostote. Not nice at all.
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Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers. And use Jeyes Fluid.
I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote. OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers? What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages? And how much is actually going to leach out? It's ignorably small, isn't it?
As I stated before hand, I work with these types of sleeper and others. When I say we had to change the way we install them the reason for this is that they leach into the water table and we have to pay heavily in fines for this.
To use them in a school environment would be stupid, the kids are more prone to bugs as their systems are not fully developed yet.
I have used sleepers in my garden, and have ensured they are from a good source and have been wrapped with butyl liner before laying down. This way there is no leaching of toxins into the soil or food we eat.
If you don't believe the replies to this thread then look at the following link.
http://www.tec.org.au/safersolutions/a/63-creosote
Use with caution or find some new ones which are not soaked in this substance.
thanks for an informative post, not just biased rhetoric.
All I want is a clear explanation of how these compounds migrate into vegetables, not a link to some green politics site.
And, just for your information, the compounds in creosote may indeed be toxic, but they are certainly not toxins. Whenever you see the word "toxin", its a pound to a pinch of organic manure that the author is a propagandist, and wouldn't know a scientific analysis if it walked into a steelyard.
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Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers. And use Jeyes Fluid.
I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote. OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers? What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages? And how much is actually going to leach out? It's ignorably small, isn't it?
As I stated before hand, I work with these types of sleeper and others. When I say we had to change the way we install them the reason for this is that they leach into the water table and we have to pay heavily in fines for this.
To use them in a school environment would be stupid, the kids are more prone to bugs as their systems are not fully developed yet.
I have used sleepers in my garden, and have ensured they are from a good source and have been wrapped with butyl liner before laying down. This way there is no leaching of toxins into the soil or food we eat.
If you don't believe the replies to this thread then look at the following link.
http://www.tec.org.au/safersolutions/a/63-creosote
Use with caution or find some new ones which are not soaked in this substance.
thanks for an informative post, not just biased rhetoric.
All I want is a clear explanation of how these compounds migrate into vegetables, not a link to some green politics site.
And, just for your information, the compounds in creosote may indeed be toxic, but they are certainly not toxins. Whenever you see the word "toxin", its a pound to a pinch of organic manure that the author is a propagandist, and wouldn't know a scientific analysis if it walked into a steelyard.
I've tried to see things from your point of view, but I couldn't fit my head up your arse-hole too!
well done, you're the first to be put on 'ignore' for a couple of years!
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Back in the day, we used to slosh creosote everywhere on outdoor timbers. And use Jeyes Fluid.
I think there's a bit of overreaction to the dangers of creosote. OK, don't put your sandwich down on freshly creosoted woodwork, nor lick your fingers after handling the stuff, but old railway sleepers? What's the mechanism by which the supposed deadly tar products are going to get into your carrots and cabbages? And how much is actually going to leach out? It's ignorably small, isn't it?
As I stated before hand, I work with these types of sleeper and others. When I say we had to change the way we install them the reason for this is that they leach into the water table and we have to pay heavily in fines for this.
To use them in a school environment would be stupid, the kids are more prone to bugs as their systems are not fully developed yet.
I have used sleepers in my garden, and have ensured they are from a good source and have been wrapped with butyl liner before laying down. This way there is no leaching of toxins into the soil or food we eat.
If you don't believe the replies to this thread then look at the following link.
http://www.tec.org.au/safersolutions/a/63-creosote
Use with caution or find some new ones which are not soaked in this substance.
thanks for an informative post, not just biased rhetoric.
All I want is a clear explanation of how these compounds migrate into vegetables, not a link to some green politics site.
And, just for your information, the compounds in creosote may indeed be toxic, but they are certainly not toxins. Whenever you see the word "toxin", its a pound to a pinch of organic manure that the author is a propagandist, and wouldn't know a scientific analysis if it walked into a steelyard.
For your information, I am not an educated person as my schooling was approved.
I am a man of the land and physical is all I know.
If you want education talk to those who get one, I did not.
I see things for what they are and do not put them into words well.
I have seen the effects of what creosote does to the insides of a human and what happens if they fall into the tank which when they try to hook up the timbers after they have been soaking for the length of time they need to be.
I lost him to this liquid and its not a nice way to go.
Do not get on your high horse and spout a language that I am not able to understand as I am a human not a dictionary.
I tell it as it is if you wish to help me with my diction thank you but do not force diction my way as I rebel against this.
My background is farming not University, done the old way.
If it ain't broke don't mess with it.
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You could try the law
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/1511/contents/made
From the explanatory notes:
Wood treated before the Regulations come into force may be supplied for second-hand use (regulation 5(5)), and its use is restricted by regulation 6.
Treated wood may not be used in the situations specified in regulation 6, including inside any buildings, in toys and in playgrounds. Where treated wood is in use before the Regulations came into force its continued use is not affected by the restrictions on use in regulation 6.
Section 6 also prohibits its use for containers used for growing purposes, or anything which comes into contact with food for humans or animals.
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You could try the law
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/1511/contents/made
From the explanatory notes:
Wood treated before the Regulations come into force may be supplied for second-hand use (regulation 5(5)), and its use is restricted by regulation 6.
Treated wood may not be used in the situations specified in regulation 6, including inside any buildings, in toys and in playgrounds. Where treated wood is in use before the Regulations came into force its continued use is not affected by the restrictions on use in regulation 6.
Section 6 also prohibits its use for containers used for growing purposes, or anything which comes into contact with food for humans or animals.
I'll no doubt be flamed again (or was it lightly flambéed?) but Section 6 para 3 says "(3) The prohibition in paragraph (1) on the use of treated wood does not apply where the treated wood was in such use before these Regulations came into force." So it's not sufficient of a risk to dismantle existing installations.
Now I realise that the school in the OP had apparently used the sleepers in 2010, which of course would be after the regulations came into force, but I certainly shan't be discarding the sleepers that I use.
And it does seem a shame to take away the small pleasure that the schoolchildren could take in growing things by this sort of busybody attitude.
The school is not, in spite of what recent posters apparently think, going to dunk the schoolchildren in tanks of creosote. We're just talking about a bit of wood preservative applied years, probably decades, ago, and posing no practical threat at all.
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Agree that it's not necessary according to those regulations to dismantle installations that were in place before 2003.
Maybe the government are busybodies, but presumably someone with some scientific knowledge doesn't agree with your assessment of the risks
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Try here.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/consultpdf/creosote.htm
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busybodies ??? :-X
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Mal I think busy bodys = some kind lottie holders going along to a school offeringa bit of gardening help and advice on invitation, and when the so called teacher/head was giving sound advise on the dangers of seeping sleepers and was shot down, it was no wonder you was concerned and asked advise on here, it's a shame that nowdays the concern for childrens health gets billed into the bracket of busy bodies. :( :( :(
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Mal I think busy bodys = some kind lottie holders going along to a school offeringa bit of gardening help and advice on invitation, and when the so called teacher/head was giving sound advise on the dangers of seeping sleepers and was shot down, it was no wonder you was concerned and asked advise on here, it's a shame that nowdays the concern for childrens health gets billed into the bracket of busy bodies. :( :( :(
But only by me, in a minority of one. God is, as always, on the side of the big battalions. And when it comes to health and safety, the battalions don't come any bigger than the Royal Regiment of Killjoys. So I'm sure the children's garden will be dismantled, and we can all sleep a little easier in our beds.
Anyway, watch this space. During my formative years, it was always my job to creosote the fences and the sheds. Indeed my old dad used to like to have the inside of his shed creosoted as well as the outside, so I used to be fairly covered in the stuff as well as inhaling it. I used to have a special gardening pullover which ponged of creosote. Indeed the smell masked the other now-banned pesticides and fungicides that I used to spray.
I've used creosote freely ever since, although obviously in recent years it hasn't been available. But we still eat lottie produce grown alongside timbers that have been creosoted.
So I've arranged with my wife to post the news of my creosote-induced demise on here just as soon as it happens, assuming that the deadly creosote is bound to strike sooner rather than later. Obviously, if I'm run over by a bus first, that would spoil the experiment.
Perhaps I could run a sweepstake ...
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For goodness sake Melbourne12, get a grip.
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it's ok, Kev, I have an ignore button ;D
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At this rate he's going to beat GG record on the ignore button, if you want Mal you can close this one and start another when you have more info. ;) ;D ;D ;D
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if you tell me how, I will ;D
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Oh don't stop now, it's getting better all the time. Dangerous things though them sleepers, my mate dropped a bollock once trying too lift a double one. Still that shouldn't affect the kids if they are still sqeaking. ;D
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I thought you was Tom and Dick Ace. :o :o :o
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I thought you was Tom and Dick Ace. :o :o :o
I am mate, but you know me, I don't make a fuss about it. ;)
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Kev nearly chokes on his cappuccino. :P :P :P
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Can I just point out that kids are infamous for picking things up and sticking their hands in their mouth with no cleaning in between.
I personally wouldn't want to lick a seeping ex-railway sleeper [I used to test all sorts of construction materials; and at the very least - track ballast is full of crap - literally]....and thus I think that putting seeping sleepers in schools is ignorant and very short sighted.
Seriously - adults can make their own choices about what they do but kids trust us to make a good decision about what goes into schools - and a seeping railway sleeper is not a good idea!
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aj, you have it spot on. :)