Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => Allotment Movement => Topic started by: marcitos on January 27, 2011, 10:55:26
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Dear All
Unfortunately, as someone with disabilities, I strongly feel I have been discriminated against on the site where I garden.
Having gone through all complaints procedures on the self-managed site where I garden & the local authority I have now complained to the ombudsman.
I’d be grateful to know whether any of you out there are on self-managed sites & have disability policies. If so,
- Do you believe you have a legal duty to have such policies, and why?
- In your license agreement with the local authority is there any mention of compliance with discrimination laws?
- Has anyone been on the end of discriminatory practices? What happened?
Marcitos
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Im not aware of any such policies,we as a committee are not given any guidelines to work within at all,we use our own common sense and knowledge brought in from other areas of our lives.However,we are in the process of building an accessible plot,but as we do this jib as volunteers,and only a few are involved in this,it takes a long time to do,from the initial planning stage,to fundraising,managing it all etc etc
Ill watch this thread with interest!
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If you or the Allotment Association are members of the NSALG or similar organization you will be able to ask them for advice
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Dear All
Unfortunately, as someone with disabilities, I strongly feel I have been discriminated against on the site where I garden.
Having gone through all complaints procedures on the self-managed site where I garden & the local authority I have now complained to the ombudsman.
I’d be grateful to know whether any of you out there are on self-managed sites & have disability policies. If so,
- Do you believe you have a legal duty to have such policies, and why?
- In your license agreement with the local authority is there any mention of compliance with discrimination laws?
- Has anyone been on the end of discriminatory practices? What happened?
Marcitos
woah!
a lot more info needed before any advice can be given here!!
exactly what are your issues ( disability and perceived discrimination )
our association does have an 'equality & diversity policy' By the way ;)
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Can yo give some kind of pointers as to what kind of discrimination you have suffered?
Are we talking about discrimination by attitude or through lack of funds?
PS I have a disabled daughter and husband so I am not unsympathetic but I am also aware that in reality there are problems.
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Thanks for your responses.
I am not aiming this post as a bash self-managed sites issue. I know very well that well run sites provide far better service than LA’s & often quite cheaper.
Unfortunately, it is the Committee that I believe have discriminated against me, so I haven’t been able to get help from the NSALG. I also believe that when issuing self-managed licenses the LA didn’t carry out its statutory duty with regard to devolving management as far as equal opps is concerned.
The reason I’ve posted is that there seems to be very little info regarding disability discrimination on allotment sites. I have been to the EHRC, RADAR, CAB etc… for advice & I feel reasonably well read re- the law. (this took place pre-2010 Act).
I have a physical disability in my right hand & forearm, which is neurological based. What I can achieve physically depends a lot on the motor action involved, usually, the more intricate the action needed the more difficult it is for me e.g. I can’t write with my right hand (I am right handed). I asked for help to cut a hedge on one side of my plot which is approx 60ft long x 7ft high x 5ft wide. I can’t use hedge cutters. I was turned down.
The Committee claim they have no obligations under the DDA (we are an Association with over 25 members). The Council gave the following:
They (the Committee) must act within terms of the Allotments Act. However, as a community group, the committee are not a public body and are therefore not subject to the DDA and Human Rights legislation. There is nothing in our allotment tenancy agreements that creates a duty on us or The Limes Committee to provide assistance. Equally there is nothing in the parent or secondary legislation that confers a duty to maintain allotment plots on any person other than the tenant who voluntarily entered into the agreement.
As the only related discrimination case I can find is Eric Gillingham v Ferryhill Council, I was wondering whether anyone had any experience similar to myself, whether other self-managed sites act differently to mine, & whether your LA has anything re – equality in the license agreement.
Marcitos
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Marcitos, I am sorry that you are encountering difficulties on your site. From my understanding of DDA, the LA are correct in their assertion; their statutory duty is to provide access and could probably successfully argue that the hedge does not constitute part of that duty (although I don't know the location of said hedge etc)
As you know, with rights comes responsibilities. Did you take on the plot with hedge with your current disability, i.e., you knew that you would be unable to maintain the hedge - did you make the committee aware at the time and specify your additional needs? What other actions could you reasonably take to maintain the hedge, e.g., ask friends, pay a gardener, petrol hedgetrimmer?
I have to say that as a non-disabled person, I would have thought long and hard before taking on such a plot with built-in maintenance issues.
Is the underlying issue now a non-cultivation notice?
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I too am sorry to hear about your current situation,it must be frustrating to say the least.However,as a committee member myself,I do help out whenever possible when folk are struggling with plots for whatever reason,time allowing,but as Sharon said,someone with an ongoing issue like yourself would normally rope in a family member to lend a hand. Imagine if everyone on a site had a similar problem,would you expect any committee to have the time/manpower to address it on each occasion? I hope this gets sorted for you so you can enjoy your plot
Rach
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Is the hedge an external or internal boundary, if its external I can't see why you are expected to cut in the first place.
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Marcitos,
If what you saying is correct you cannot be discriminated against for your disability, it is against the law, full facts please and I'm sure one of our in house allotment lawyers will be able to sort your problem out, I hope your allotment society realise what they are doing because they could well end up in the poo-poo!, :)
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Hi Everyone
Thanks for getting back. I hope it can be appreciated that this situation has been going on for a long time. To give a ‘blow by blow’ account would have probably meant me posting a ’30 pager’. I am happy to provide further info. It’s probably better to do this when someone asks.
At the end of the day it would be for a court to decide whether discrimination has taken place or not. I appreciate people may have an opinion on such matters but I’m only going to post with regard to law, rules & regs.
In answer to some of the posts so far:
- I did make the Committee aware of the problem. The law as I understand it is that a service provider should seek to remove or alter a physical obstruction if it interferes with, in my case, the normal use of my plot. I do understand that cost & resources would be a factor & I certainly wouldn’t expect anything to be done if it meant financial problems for the site.
Under the 2005 Act, LA’s have a proactive & anticipatory duty to combat
discrimination (see The Duty to Promote Disability Equality:Statutory Code of Practice). I believe that Allotment Associations take on the General aspects of the Duty (see CH2)
- With regard to resources – work has been carried out on others’ plots during this time period, e.g. strimming overgrown areas, digging plots over. on plots not occupied by people with disabilities. Our site had a ‘Community Payback Team’ working on a ‘Sensory Garden’, they also did work on some plots. They were on every Sunday for 8 months. The site has £5000 worth of assets. The Committee invested in a petrol driven saw to deal with such things as wild saplings and er…….hedges. The Committee offered to cut the hedges of some plotholders even though they didn’t ask for it or want it. For the Sensory Garden a grant of £4600 was gained, this money was also to make the site (as a whole) more accessable.
- Family, friends etc.. Firstly, there are several people on site willing to help. However, when I tried to cut the hedges myself (leaving me in really bad pain for 6 weeks) I was told that the way I had cut it ‘breached my tenancy agreement’. Any communication to the Committee re what dimensions the hedge should be cut to has been unanswered. Secondly, & I am probably not correct in this & would welcome advice, is the insurance factor of someone helping me who then gets injured
- I can appreciate that Committees are volunteers. Rather than looking at the individual as a problem, it may be worth thinking whether the license agreement was drawn up by the LA with due care & attention. Did they explain, exactly, what taking on the site management entailed?
Marcitos
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This is not only a disability problem. I do not consider myself disabled but I would have a problem cutting a hedge or using hedge cutting equipment.
I think that the committee need to discuss precisely how they are going manage the hedging. When is the AGM? I suggest you get this matter onto the agenda.
I wonder whether using the disability card is alienating people.
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I know the problem; I've developed chronic fatigue syndrome since taking on my plot, and have a lot of difficulty with my own hedges. My neighbour on one side has gone along the top on his side, so it's just the other to sort out now; I can manage the sides without difficulty.
Is there anyone who could help you out with your hedge?
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On our site all plot holders are responsible for their own boundaries and this includes any hedge boundary should the plot have one. We have several people with disabilities on our site and they have friends and family to assist in hedge cutting. We do not have the funds to pay for cutting hedges as we found out in years gone by. Any site maintenance and improvements come from allotment rents, nothing from the council.
What about requesting a swap should a more suitable plot become available? Examples: 3 months ago I had an elderly plotholder who was struggling with a full plot that was at the top of our site, up the hill. A 1/2 plot became available near the entrance gate at the bottom of the hill. He is much happier and on this more manageable plot.
2 weeks ago I had some half plots available. One new tenant is in a wheelchair most of the time. To suite his disability, he took on a 1/2 plot not far from the entrance, on the main central track, right next to the carpark, with a tap opposite his gate. There is a 15ft long hedge (probably the shortest boundary hedge of all our plots), that he must maintain and this was explained prior to signing the contract. He has fencing on the other 3 sides. He said that was not an issue.
Could you request a swap to a more suitable plot as and when one becomes available? Is there no scope for a compromise? Any work carried out on one plot may result in all other plot holders footing the bill in rent rises and this is not right, also most committee members are volunteers and not obliged to work other members plots.
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Hi Again
Thanks to those who have contributed further.
I will re-iterate that I have help but there is no guidance on how the hedge should be kept. (see my previous post). Also, vis-à-vis resources on site, see my previous post.
I have been through a mediation process (at my request), the sites complaints procedure & council complaints procedure.
I can garden quite effectively (they’re called coping strategies) & have spent quite a lot of money on fruit trees, fruit bushes etc. The hedge has encroached so far as to cover my things & interfere with further plot development. I am now, however, on Incapacity Benefit. So I don’t think it reasonable to change plots & start over again.
There seems to be an underlying trend of placing the burden on the individual. Maybe, as I suggested in an earlier post, because the guidance etc.. about setting up a self-managed site has not been properly thought through by LA’s nor explained to Committees.
As I’ve also suggested, that I am interested in how the sites are set up in accordance with relevant rules, regs & laws. Perhaps some posters may want to reflect after reading the link below.
http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-guidance/guidance-for-service-providers/associations-clubs-and-societies/
I’m actually trying to be fair & help, if possible. So that other disabled people are not treated so poorly & those that have innocently taken on sites and are running them very well don’t fall foul of obligations they didn’t know they had to carry out. See my post under the ‘Equality Act 2010’ thread.
Let me know what you think
Best regards
Marcitos
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TBH I rather think you're getting confused between your membership of an Association and your tenancy. As a member of the Association, equality laws mean that you must not be disdvantaged within your membership. This means, for example, that an Association shop must be accessible. Your tenancy, however is another matter. Imagine, if you will, that you privately rent a house then turn to the landlord and try and tell him he has to clean the house for you as you can't do it yourself.
"There seems to be an underlying trend of placing the burden on the individual"
Yep, that about sums it up. When you take on a tenancy you take on certain responsibilities. If the agreement says the hedge has to be kept neat, then that's your responsibility. Not the Committees, the Council's or the European Court of Hedge Trimming.
I speak as the driving force behind a failed attempt to create some disabled plots on our site. I have all the time in the world for helping others but I do resent anyone trying to say that they can offload their responsibilities under their tenancy agrremment onto others as a right.
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Sorry, but I was hoping not to rise to any bait on here as I only wanted some factual info. However, as you've gone out of your way to be rude.....
TBH I rather think you're getting confused between your membership of an Association and your tenancy. As a member of the Association, equality laws mean that you must not be disdvantaged within your membership. This means, for example, that an Association shop must be accessible.
Not that simple according to what I understand from EHRC. The Association has taken over the site management & must manage the site within the law & relevant duties.
Your tenancy, however is another matter. Imagine, if you will, that you privately rent a house then turn to the landlord and try and tell him he has to clean the house for you as you can't do it yourself
The landlord is the LA. Not sure if this still happens but if you rented a council house & you were so disabled you couldn't clean your house there used to be something called home help.
What would be your take if the landlord cleaned other tenant’s houses who were quite capable of doing it themselves but refused to clean the disabled persons?
"There seems to be an underlying trend of placing the burden on the individual"
Yep, that about sums it up. When you take on a tenancy you take on certain responsibilities. If the agreement says the hedge has to be kept neat, then that's your responsibility. Not the Committees, the Council's or the European Court of Hedge Trimming.
If the tenancy agreement doesn’t comply with relevant legislation it doesn’t hold much sway in its implementation. In this case (from October 2010 that is) the Equality Act.
I speak as the driving force behind a failed attempt to create some disabled plots on our site.
From whose perspective did you ‘drive’, yours or that of the disabled?
……I do resent anyone trying to say that they can offload their responsibilities under their tenancy agreement onto others as a right
Probably as much as I resent organisations that purport to be ‘disabled friendly’ but never deliver & people who want authority but then abuse it.
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I will re-iterate that I have help but there is no guidance on how the hedge should be kept.
Our ruling is that plot boundary hedges must not be higher than 6ft; or obstruct main access pathways around the site as they need to be wide enough for emergency vehicle access.
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Marcitos,can you supply more info,what happened after the mediation,what does your LA have to say about this? and finally,what do you wish to happen as an end result?
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So what's next? A quadraplegic claiming that the requirement to cultivate disadvantages them and the Association should do all his/her digging and planting? Get your friends or family to cut your hedge and get on with life.
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djbrenton
You may want to read the whole of the thread & stop shooting from the hip. I’ve taken the trouble to paste again. Let me know if the concept is too difficult for you to understand. I find that your ‘examples’ rather exaggerating. I was rather hoping for some rational information. Still, I respect your right to be rude.
- Family, friends etc.. Firstly, there are several people on site willing to help. However, when I tried to cut the hedges myself (leaving me in really bad pain for 6 weeks) I was told that the way I had cut it ‘breached my tenancy agreement’. Any communication to the Committee re what dimensions the hedge should be cut to has been unanswered. Secondly, & I am probably not correct in this & would welcome advice, is the insurance factor of someone helping me who then gets injured
Elvis2003
The mediation got nowhere. As stated above I can’t get a response on how the hedge can be cut. After 6 months the other side pulled out. LA say it’s nothing to do with them. I just wanted the hedge to be cut to a manageable size. Still do, but with an apology thrown in.
Marcitos
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I would have thought the others on site who have offered to help would know what is an acceptable way to cut the hedge for your site. If there's no detail in the tenancy agreement then you can't be breaching it can you? Like I said. Get it cut and move on. Allotmenteering is supposed to be about enjoyment, not engaging in litigation or unnecessary argument. I repeat. The people you're trying to hold to account are volunteers. Give them a break.
PS There are no insurance ramifications for anyone helping you. It's only as an employer or supplier of services that insurance would be relevant.
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If there's no detail in the tenancy agreement then you can't be breaching it can you?
The issue of ‘breaching’ is from the Committee not from me.
The people you're trying to hold to account are volunteers.
Ah! I understand where you’re coming from now. If you’re a volunteer you shouldn’t be accountable for any of your actions or decisions.
I wonder why a group of people would agree to take on the responsibility of ‘the day to day running of the site’ when they can’t do it. Shouldn’t they be responsible & re-negotiate the license?
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If there's no detail in the tenancy agreement then you can't be breaching it can you?
The issue of ‘breaching’ is from the Committee not from me.
The people you're trying to hold to account are volunteers.
Ah! I understand where you’re coming from now. If you’re a volunteer you shouldn’t be accountable for any of your actions or decisions.
I wonder why a group of people would agree to take on the responsibility of ‘the day to day running of the site’ when they can’t do it. Shouldn’t they be responsible & re-negotiate the license?
I'm not suggesting that volunteers aren't accountable. I am, on the other hand suggesting you look after your own plot properly ( with or without help that you've organised yourself). You keep referring to a license that can be renegotiated. I presume you mean the lease which will have a fixed term.
Where I'm coming from is that the world owes you nothing. Your disability sounds minor compared to many gardeners who manage perfectly well with help they've organised themselves and don't seek to be an added burden on the volunteer organisers. I repeat. Get your hedge cut to a satisfactory standard and then carry on enjoying your plot without being so litigious.
Oh, and guess what. It's your Association. If you feel the current volunteers aren't up to the job, put your money where your mouth is and stand for election.
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If the tenancy agreement doesn’t comply with relevant legislation it doesn’t hold much sway in its implementation. In this case (from October 2010 that is) the Equality Act.
I speak as the driving force behind a failed attempt to create some disabled plots on our site.
From whose perspective did you ‘drive’, yours or that of the disabled?
……I do resent anyone trying to say that they can offload their responsibilities under their tenancy agreement onto others as a right
Probably as much as I resent organisations that purport to be ‘disabled friendly’ but never deliver & people who want authority but then abuse it.
I can understand where you're coming from. This 'easy-access' business and the new Equality Act 2010 have prompted some very heated discussions within our new committee.
My intent was to make the whole site easy-access, but have come up against so much 'do as little as we can get away with' attitude, it's unreal.
The 2010 Equality Act is supposed to make all this easier, but people seem to have very little real understanding beyond their pre-conceived ides about what it means.
The crux of the whole thing is 'Reasonableness.' Your Association, any Association, has a duty to do what is reasonable to cater for members with a disability... And indeed for those without.
As long as you keep that in mind and can convince your committee members that what you are asking for is reasonable, then there should be no problem.
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marcitos, I'm sorry that you're in dispute with the allotments people, and I'm sorry too that these valid and important issues are not receiving the sensitivity and consideration they deserve.
As I understand it the DDA certainly applies to the site association if they are providing a service, and I'd argue too that if the committee are providing a service on behalf of a local authority then the HRA applies.
Perhaps you can clarify you complaint please: are you saying that your plot is bounded by a site hedge (that is, not your own hedge planted on your plot) and that your tenancy agreement obliges you to keep that site hedge trimmed, and that a failure to trim the hedge will result in you being in breach of the terms of your tenancy agreement?
If that's the situation then I agree that if your disability (and I'm assuming from what you describe that it is a disability "which has a substantial and long term adverse effect on the ability to carry out normal day to day activities") makes it impossible for you to maintain the hedge, though otherwise allows you to garden, then the site association is under a duty to make reasonable adjustments, and from the situation you describe it would seem that the association could without much difficulty trim the site hedge along by you plot themselves and strike that requirement from your tenancy agreement.
Can you clarify if that is the situation?
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Im not aware of any such policies,we as a committee are not given any guidelines to work within at all,we use our own common sense and knowledge brought in from other areas of our lives.However,we are in the process of building an accessible plot,but as we do this jib as volunteers,and only a few are involved in this,it takes a long time to do,from the initial planning stage,to fundraising,managing it all etc etc
Ill watch this thread with interest!
Ill bring your attention back to my original reply(and by jib I meant job!) again,we are,as volunteers are doing our best for disabled folk,without any input,funding or otherwise,from our LA.If they provided any guidelines or otherwise for us to follow,we would,but they dont,and i suspect your site is the same,so take it up with your own LA perhaps?
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djbrenton
I am, on the other hand suggesting you look after your own plot properly
Nothing wrong with my plot. Quite possible its better looked after than yours. After 5 years this is the only thing I’ve asked help for & I can’t think of anything else I’d want help for.
If you feel the current volunteers aren't up to the job, put your money where your mouth is and stand for election.
I was chair once. Didn’t put my self up for it but was asked to do it. Packed it in. Too many bigoted people who thought that being on the Committee meant privilege above other members. You in that ilk? You should see them take resources from plots that come empty – water butts, paving slabs …. Is that the type of volunteer committee you prescribe to?
Your disability sounds minor compared to many gardeners……
Bit presumptious that! You are qualified to make that assumption? Shows the angle you have approached this from. Your own! You’re just as selfish as you’re making me out to be.
Nigel B
Thanks for your more rational post. You’ve hit the nail on the head there.Reasonableness.' I posted (see below) this earlier. Does this sound reasonable? As part of the Association I also own the cutting equipment described below.
- work has been carried out on others’ plots during this time period, e.g. strimming overgrown areas, digging plots over on plots not occupied by people with disabilities. Our site had a ‘Community Payback Team’ working on a ‘Sensory Garden’, they also did work on some plots. They were on every Sunday for 8 months. The site has £5000 worth of assets. The Committee invested in a petrol driven saw to deal with such things as wild saplings and er…….hedges. The Committee offered to cut the hedges of some plotholders even though they didn’t ask for it or want it. For the Sensory Garden a grant of £4600 was gained, this money was also to make the site (as a whole) more accessable.
Not many disabled gardeners posting. Maybe because there are so few as some sites are so unwelcoming.
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Unwashed
Thank you for your refreshing post. It’s much appreciated.
Perhaps you can clarify you complaint please: are you saying that your plot is bounded by a site hedge (that is, not your own hedge planted on your plot) and that your tenancy agreement obliges you to keep that site hedge trimmed, and that a failure to trim the hedge will result in you being in breach of the terms of your tenancy agreement?
More or less. The hedge in question bounds between myself & a ‘Sensory Garden’. Your ‘reading’ of the Agreement is correct.
If that's the situation then I agree that if your disability (and I'm assuming from what you describe that it is a disability "which has a substantial and long term adverse effect on the ability to carry out normal day to day activities")
Correct.
makes it impossible for you to maintain the hedge, though otherwise allows you to garden,
Correct
that the association could without much difficulty trim the site hedge along by you plot themselves and strike that requirement from your tenancy agreement.
Correct.
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"Too many bigoted people who thought that being on the Committee meant privilege above other members. You in that ilk? You should see them take resources from plots that come empty – water butts, paving slabs …. Is that the type of volunteer committee you prescribe to."
Nothing I've said gives you reason to make such assumptions. When I was secretary I was the last one to take advantage of anything. I held myself to be the servant of the members. Having said that, I would have resented someone expecting me to cut their hedge for them when they were perfectly capable of getting it cut without my help.
"Bit presumptious that! You are qualified to make that assumption? Shows the angle you have approached this from. Your own! You’re just as selfish as you’re making me out to be."
You said your disablility only affects one arm. That is a far lesser disability than many gardeners I know. That's not an assumption, it's based on what you said.
I repeat again. You can get help to have your hedge cut. Do it and stop making such an issue. It's this sort of unpleasantness that leads to people being unwilling to sit on committees.
It's not reasonable to take an allotment, sign the tenancy agreement and then try and force the committee to do some of your work for you. Am I reading you right? You've been the chair and yet you've never cut your hedge or even found out what the site rules are on hedge cutting?
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Hi Elvis 2003
so take it up with your own LA perhaps?
Did do. They say it's the Committees decision & they can't interfere. That's why I wrote earlier that did sites that have taken on self management realise what they were taking on? Were they properly informed by the LA. I understand that it was the (statutory) duty of the LA to ensure, in this case, that the obligations under the Disability Acts would be covered if/when management was devolved.
Please, don't misunderstand me, I'm not being sarcy, but maybe Committees get back to the LA's to discuss this. I bet there would be many different answers.
See Unwashed's post. This mirrors what both EHRC & RADAR have said to me.
Regards
Marcitos
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OK,sorry if I wasnt clear,I wasnt suggesting you take up the hedge issue with your LA,rather why they are not issuing guidelines to work within to committees of self managed sites,as this seems to be the over all problem here as far as you are concerned?
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Elvis 2003
The LA have been saying for a few years that the license system we have here (in our local area that is)
will be reviewed with consultation of plotholders. Not happened yet. Our site had a 1 year license. It ran out April 09. Some sites' licenses ran out a few years before that.
NB By license I mean the agreement between LA & Site
djbrenton
Remember you were the one who started to get personal.
‘I have all the time in the world for helping others’
‘I would have resented someone expecting me to cut their hedge for them when they were perfectly capable of getting it cut without my help.’
Please give me an example of how you’ve helped someone on your site who was capable of getting it done without your help???????
It's this sort of unpleasantness that leads to people being unwilling to sit on committees.
And on the other hand it is the behaviour of some Committee members that put people off self management. When we became self managed everyone voted for it. Wouldn’t be that way now. We used to have 30 or more at general meetings. There are more Committee members there than other plotholders now.
Many sites are well run & a credit to self management. The bad ones tarnish this concept. It isn’t helpful that there is little accountability, in practice, when things are wrong. There are other issues on our site. Your attitude comes across as put up or shut up.
It's not reasonable to take an allotment, sign the tenancy agreement and then try and force the committee to do some of your work for you.
It’s not reasonable to refuse to recognise that there is a problem with the agreement & change it.
Am I reading you right? You've been the chair and yet you've never cut your hedge or even found out what the site rules are on hedge cutting?
I think you read how you want to read. I gave up the Chair long before I took on this particular plot. However, when Chair I insisted on a clause being incorporated into the letter we sent out vis-à-vis plot inspections. It stated that if anyone who couldn’t maintain their plots due to illness, infirmity, disability, personal problems… please let us know & we will do our best to help. I think that’s called Reasonableness & a recognition that the initial Terms were not fair.
Alas, the Committee have now taken that out. They even have a collective memory failure of this existing even though the minutes of the meeting the decision to include the said clause says they were present & each plotholder received a copy of the letter.
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im trying to be nice here,but i do resent the way you are talking to dj,he or she has been one of the only people to reply to your rather volatile thread,many have read this and failed to bother to reply for good reason,you still seem to want attack volunteers and for that alone i cant stand by your reasoning.get off your bum and join your committee,again,make your voice count and stop being rude to those that actually have bothered replying to you,cos plenty have read this thread and cant be bothered
Rach
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Thanks for that Elvis. I do appreciate that I'me being a tad confrontational but it might perhaps serve marcitos well to work out why. The impression I'm getting ( rightly or wrongly) is of someone who is perfectly capable of solving the problem but chooses to cause trouble instead. Maybe the committee are seeing it the same way. I don't think this sort of attitude helps the cause of people who genuinely need their committee's help.Like was the case at marcitos' site, when I was secretary, a tenant only had to let us know that they were going to be in hospital or whatever and we'd either ignore their plot for inspection purposes or offer assistance. Guess what,numerous instances ocurred where people had lengthy absences through illness. They made their own arrangements. Why? Becuae at the end of the day they realised it was their responsibility and we were the last resort not the first.
You seem adequately intelligent. How are you unable to work out, given that you probably don't have the only hedge on your site, how this hedge should be cut to satisfy the terms of your tenancy agreement/ rules? Surely it's vaguely obvious looking or asking around? Do you really need guidelines or are you just being awkard?
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Just a small point -
When quoting other people's posts it would be helpful if it is made clear which is the original poster's comment, and which is yours. This can be done by using the 'quote' button, or by highlighting and then using either the B (bold) or I (italic) button.
It is getting quite difficult to follow some of the posts when it isn't always obvious who is saying what.
Thanks.
(Just thought, it could be that I am being especially thick, in which case, ignore me!)
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shows how these sorts of things get out of hand
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No I was thinking the same thing
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Ditto. ??? ??? ???
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If the rule just says to maintain the hedge but doesn't say what that means precisely then the committee has no grounds to complain if they don't like how the hedge is maintained. I'm not sure I've ever met an allotmenteer (and never in my life an allotments officer or council contractor) who understands the need to trim a hedge with a batter for example, but hedge rules rarely say anything about how to cut the hedge when it is patently obvious that hardly anyone will know how the do the job adequately without being told. And if there is a specification it's probably about the height to trim the hedge to, but hedges can't be trimmed to the same height year after year, they need to be cut just little higher each time to allow for growth, so chances are any specification a committee may care to make won't even be good for the hedge.
Having taken offence at marcitos' insistence on her rights it appears to me that the committe has acted out of spite in makeing a groundless complaint against marcitos. Management committees need to understand that they are customer service organisations providing a service. Sometimes their users will make legitimate complaints, and sometimes their users will be rude and difficult, but they all deserve a first-rate service. Rudeness is almost always born out of frustration at the way a legitimate complaint was mishandled, and this is entirely the fault of the customer service, not the customer.
But back to the original grievance: You'd have thought that common decency would have been enough for the committee to arrange to cut the hedge if someone said they had difficulty with it, and for me it's the great sadness of our age that we need legislation to force people reluctantly to do the right thing. And sadness upon sadness when allotmenteers can't even bring themselves to allow a fellow allotmenteer a miserably poor statutory minimum of dignity. Shame.
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^^ my interpretation of what I have read here is that marcitos wants the committee to change his tenancy agreement to omit maintenance of the hedge on the grounds of his disability. We've heard they maintain other hedges and they may have been no reason why thy would not have helped out with this one - after all they have equipment. But they wont amend his tenancy.
Marcitos, is that right?
As DJ indicates, if someone falls ill you go light on the rules and help them out but you don't rewrite their tenancy to say they don't have to do any weeding. Sorry, mate but I don't think it is going to get anywhere.
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^^ my interpretation of what I have read here is that marcitos wants the committee to change his tenancy agreement to omit maintenance of the hedge on the grounds of his disability. We've heard they maintain other hedges and they may have been no reason why thy would not have helped out with this one - after all they have equipment. But they wont amend his tenancy.
Marcitos, is that right?
As DJ indicates, if someone falls ill you go light on the rules and help them out but you don't rewrite their tenancy to say they don't have to do any weeding. Sorry, mate but I don't think it is going to get anywhere.
That's how I understand it too DV. The important distinction here is that marcitos is perfectly capable of maintaining her allotment. However, her DDA-qualifying disability makes it impossible for her to maintain the adjacent site hedge, a condition of her tenancy. The DDA requires the service provider to make reasonable adjustments to the provision of their service in these circumstances, and as the committee are demonstrably able to cut the hedge themselves then in the circumstances a reasonable adjustment would be to strike the hedge-maintenance condition from her tenancy agreement. Simples.
Come on peeps, can it possibly be right to evict an otherwise capable fellow allotmenteer just because she has a gammy hand? Who of us wouldn't happily do the hedge for her anyways? Of course it's not right, and the committee have seriously missed the point if they think it could ever be so. Take the hedge rule out of the agreement for everyone and cut the hedge with a working party - one that has been trained in hedge maintenance.
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Who of us wouldn't happily do the hedge for her anyways?
Thats the point I keep making. People have offered to cut the hedge but marcitos seems determined to try and force a volunteer committee member to do it instead. My attitude to life is, first look to yourself to fulfill your responsibilities, then look to your family and friends. Only if those avenues fail should you look to the wider world.
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who mentioned eviction?
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who mentioned eviction?
It is the implied consequence of breaching a term of the tenancy agreement - why else make it a term of the agreement?
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quite,but it hasnt been mentioned in this case so lets stick to the details
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It seems to me that Marcitos feels unfairly treated as other plotholders hedges have been trimmed by the Committee and funds are available and used for all manner of site improvements - Is that right M?
TBH I think I might feel the same in that situation. Can you tell us why your complaints to the committee and the LA failed? Did you mention DDA requirements? I don't think the LA can wriggle out of their responsibilities simply by saying that day to day management responsibilities have passed to the self management committee - they are still the landowner/leaseholder.
I wonder what it is about the other plotholder who had their hedge trimmed? Friends of committee? Their demeanour and approach to the committee?
In an ideal world you would not have this issue, the hedge would be trimmed and life would be good and then there is real life, where it is necessary to deal with the arrogant and obdurate. I recognise that you are standing up for a principle but as other posters have said allotmenting should be about enjoyment. At some point it may be necessary for your sanity to recognise that the committee will not trim the hedge (fair, reasonable or not) and do it with friends - what about a hedge trimming party? If the committee will not provide specific guidelines for how the hedge should be trimmed, do what seems reasonable. The other option is to carry on fighting, stand for election to the committee and influence from the inside.
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It's standard in allotment tenancies that you are obliged to maintain hedges and to keep paths clear. If you can't do it, you can either seek help or just pay for someone else to do it. And it seems that for Marcitos, help is readily available.
Nobody could argue successfully that a disability gives them a right to have their tenancy altered. That is not how the system works. Help is available but Marcitos seems to want to insist the tenancy is altered. Well, it might work but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Marcitos confirmed that she was obliged by a term of her tenancy agreement to cut the hedge. Without this obligation and it's consequence her argument has no merit. As it is she is evicted if she doesn't maintain the hedge, and because of her disability she can't maintain the hedge, but the DDA obliges the committee to make reasonable adjustments in just these circumstances and it is demonstrably reasonable that the committee relieve marcitos of the obligation.
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Marcitos confirmed that she was obliged by a term of her tenancy agreement to cut the hedge. Without this obligation and it's consequence her argument has no merit. As it is she is evicted if she doesn't maintain the hedge, and because of her disability she can't maintain the hedge, but the DDA obliges the committee to make reasonable adjustments in just these circumstances and it is demonstrably reasonable that the committee relieve marcitos of the obligation.
I disagree with your conclusion Unwashed. If the tenancy agreement stated that the tenant was obliged to cut the hedge themselves then I think it would be reasonable to have that clause altered to allow others to cut the hedge. In this case, there is no problem having the hedge cut ( others on site have offered) and it is not reasonable for the tenant to insist that they want the tenancy changed.
In some circumstances it would be fair to remove any clause requiring the tenant to perform the majority of their own cultivation but it would not be fair to transfer the burden of that cultivation onto the committee.
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UW, Marcitos can maintain the hedge, either by asking or paying someone else to do it.
As other have said, personally maintaining a 60 ft hedge could be beyond the abilities of many people.
I suspect the committee are waiting for Marcitos to make the next move as the hedge has little impact on any other plot. There has been no mention of eviction and there won't be while this is still in process.
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I should, perhaps, at this point explain one of the reasons I feel strongly about this issue. I have, for some time now, been involved voluntarily with a group of people who don't have the use of their limbs. In most cases because they were blown off. Not one of the people I've met want anyone to do anything for them whatsoever, unless it's absolutely necessary. They do whatever they can unassisted, then grudgingly accept the help of their friends and family. Their disabilities are, in very real terms, far greater than marcitos' yet I doubt any one of them would take the same approach that she has.
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My take on this is - if the committee have maintained some hedges; then they should maintain them all - regardless.
If they have chosen [either deliberately or not] to maintain non-disabled people's hedges, and are actively pursuing disabled people to maintain them to a standard that has not been written into the contract; then yes - this is a discriminatory action.
Either they do or don't - and if they do then do it for everyone. If they don't, then they can't pick and chose and if they require standards to be met, then those standards need to be plain and simple and communicated properly.
I would not maintain a hedge that belongs to a council [or is leased by them] at above head height as I am not trained in working at heights and am unaware whether I am insured for maintenance of their property. This also applies for rental houses and was a line I have taken in the past which resulted in the landlord paying for properly trained people to come and trim the 10ft hedges.
Last year we were charged for hedge maintenance on our plot and I had to fight to actually get them to do it - as they were giving us all sorts of nonsense about why it hadn't been done; eventually it was and some bits were missed. One person complained and offered to do it themselves and invoice the committee - his got done; one person didn't and theirs didn't get done!
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But back to the original grievance: You'd have thought that common decency would have been enough for the committee to arrange to cut the hedge if someone said they had difficulty with it, and for me it's the great sadness of our age that we need legislation to force people reluctantly to do the right thing. And sadness upon sadness when allotmenteers can't even bring themselves to allow a fellow allotmenteer a miserably poor statutory minimum of dignity. Shame.
Hear hear!
Very well said indeed Unwashed!
Whatever happened to common decency?
Marcitos:
It stated that if anyone who couldn’t maintain their plots due to illness, infirmity, disability, personal problems… please let us know & we will do our best to help. I think that’s called Reasonableness & a recognition that the initial Terms were not fair.
Unfortunately, as Unwashed has said, 'doing the right thing' seems to be a thing of the past.
Allotments are about community more than any other aspect.. Or they should be. They are certainly not supposed to be the last bastion of the middle-aged misery-guts.
Selfish? I've not seen it's equal in all my time.
Our new allotments want for nothing. We have all the space we need, and more. So much space we have separate areas besides the plots for keeping rabbits and hens, another for beehives and a heritage orchard, and yet another for simply relaxing under an old oak tree while watching the allotments and enjoying the sights and smells. Plots are 300sq Yards and there are plenty for a town of our size............ But when it came to discussing easy-access for our less-able visitors, we had more arguments than you could wave a stick at.
Djbrenton..... "Judge ye not", my friend.
I doubt your on-line diagnosis of Marcitos' disability, to be frank. And you certainly can't claim to know to what extent if affects her.
This is all becoming somewhat unseemly.
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Did not intend to post on this thread but feel I must say the last post from
djbrenton was too much. >:(
If a person with a disability chooses to be as independent as possible
good for them but are all people with disabilities supposed to struggle
just because some choose to ??
We are supposed to care about other people and help whenever possible
and I can't see much evidence of that on here.......shameful.
Some people need a kick up the backside >:( >:( >:(
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Did not intend to post on this thread but feel I must say the last post from
djbrenton was too much. >:(
If a person with a disability chooses to be as independent as possible
good for them but are all people with disabilities supposed to struggle
just because some choose to ??
We are supposed to care about other people and help whenever possible
and I can't see much evidence of that on here.......shameful.
Some people need a kick up the backside >:( >:( >:(
I don't expect marcitos to struggle. She's had offers of help but seems determined to force unwilling committee members to do it. That's what I object to.
And as far as caring about other people and helping others, I drive thousands of miles a year and give up untold hours helping people. I don't expect any thanks, but I also don't expect demands either.
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Committee members.........in my experience some and I repeat some committee members are a group of little wannabes whose only claim to power in life can be found on an Allotment committee.As such the only thing they want to do is shove bits of paper around and strut about feeling important.Ask em to get their hands dirty for the sake of a fellow Human Being and they don't want to know.
I feel that if you feel dedicated enough to join the committee you should be involved in all aspects of life on your particular allotment never mind the bla bla bla about what the tenancy agreement says...in some areas of life you have to act with honour.
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Committee members.........in my experience some and I repeat some committee members are a group of little wannabes whose only claim to power in life can be found on an Allotment committee.As such the only thing they want to do is shove bits of paper around and strut about feeling important.Ask em to get their hands dirty for the sake of a fellow Human Being and they don't want to know.
I feel that if you feel dedicated enough to join the committee you should be involved in all aspects of life on your particular allotment never mind the bla bla bla about what the tenancy agreement says...in some areas of life you have to act with honour.
In an ideal world, there would be a queue of willing and helpful people waiting to do their bit on the committee. In practice, as I'm sure you know, just getting people to stand for committee can be a struggle. As others have said, allotments should be about community, and people will hopefully help others out. I lose track of how many hedges I've cut for people and how many greenhouses I've watered when people were on holiday. This is, in my experience, normal behaviour. It's a different matter, however, EXPECTING those who volunteer for the committee to do anything for you as an individual. Your tenancy is your own responsibility, and whilst soliciting help from others is fine, or accepting it when gladly offered, I don't feel undue demands should be made on the Association or fellow plotholders as a 'right'.
To repeat yet again. This situation wouldn't be a problem if marcitos simply accepted the help that has been offered. What exactly is the problem with that?
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Ah, spring must be in the air .... the first A4A firestorm of the year.
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Maybe this person feels that changes need to be made to her tenancy agreement,I think she stated that it was cut but not to requirements so the people who lay down the requirements may be good enough to cut it themselves in this instance.
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^^ I think what Marcitos has said is that the hedge is encroaching on her cultivation and she wants the committee to cut it back.
I would help almost anyone and help is something that is given freely ......... but if Marcitos had shown half the rudeness that she has shown on this thread I would be giving her a wide berth. Not as a hate crime against disability but because I would not want to get caught in any crossfire or hit by the ricochets.
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Reading through the thread I do not think Markitos was rude in fact it was another poster to make the first rude comments.
Markitos can see the issue clearly and needs to resolve it at source.I can understand the reason why she is rejecting help off others at this stage because she wants a permanent answer to this.
Maybe Thrive can help ??
They may know people who have had similar problems and how it was dealt with.
http://www.thrive.org.uk/how-we-can-help-you.aspx
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^^ I think what Marcitos has said is that the hedge is encroaching on her cultivation and she wants the committee to cut it back.
I would help almost anyone and help is something that is given freely ......... but if Marcitos had shown half the rudeness that she has shown on this thread I would be giving her a wide berth. Not as a hate crime against disability but because I would not want to get caught in any crossfire or hit by the ricochets.
I think you have summed up a lot of people's thoughts on this perfectly.
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I am a bit cofused about the hedge. It is between Marcitos and a "sensory garden".
So do the committee take responsibility to cut the hedge on the "sensory gardens" side? If not who does?
I find it odd that this has gone all the way to the Ombudsman and can certainly understand Marcitos's frustration at not getting a solution.
Best of luck anyway Marcitos. To answer your original questions unfortunately I don't have that kind of experience.
Bill
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Elvis 2003, please let me know who are the volunteers I have attacked. As another poster has mentioned, dj was the one who started the rudeness. By the way, I am a volunteer on our local network Committee which tries to ensure fainess within our local area for all plotholders, not just able bodied ones, we have an Equalities Policy.
RE – Amendment to my tenancy agreement. A number of posters maintain that I want some form of ‘special’ treatment & have the agreement changed to suit me. I will try & explain again that if the tenancy agreement, in any form, is in conflict with the law, law takes precedent, even if it isn’t written in the document & whether you like it or lump it. Associations, in our area, in their license agreement with the LA agree to manage ‘the day to day running’ of the site. If, therefore, the Committee do not take the law into account are they not in breach of the license agreement? If a Committee cannot fulfil their commitments shouldn’t they re-negotiate the license with the LA? ARI note 4 possible agreements, do they not? I don’t know why it is when some people sign a contract but do not want to abide by it.
CH2 The Duty to Promote Disability Equality: Statutory Code of Practice. This is what Self Managed Sites take on from the LA, like it or lump it. If you didn’t know anything about that get in touch with your LA rather thangetting uptight with a poster on here. Mind you it’s easier to shoot the messenger.
SMP1704 Committee & LA deny any obligation under DDA (see my first post). Committee dominated by a group of couples.
Betula, thank you for the link.
Bill Door, the Committee cut the other side of the hedge. I also have another hedge 10ft long x 5ft wide x 7ft high. This is on the boundary of where I enter the plot & the ‘lane’ that leads to it. I only know of one plot with a hedge. The dimension is around the same as the one described here. They maintain their hedge but were asked whether they would like it cutting lower at the end of last season. The only other hedge is the boundary of one side of the site & a neighbouring cemetery. This is about 700ft long. The LA cut both sides. I negotiated with them, when chair, to do our side, so that it lessened the burden on site resources & peoples time.
With regard to the actual cutting – please show me where I’ve stated that I’m not going to get it cut. We have an embankment on site where we usually have fires. We used to put things there ready for burning. Last year a new rule came in force that we cannot leave anything there between April & October, fires now only allowed Nov to March. Apart from my helpers not having proper tools, I don’t have room for all those cuttings on my plot. We also cultivate. At the end of last season, had swine flu, then the severe weather. One of my helpers says he has had some equipment that may do the job, but he now has swine flu.
I have not yet had notice to quit. I was given a deadline to cut the hedge (no dimensions) & to make good the part I had tried to cut. I had a 6 week deadline to do this end of summer last year. After the deadline passed I have received another warning.
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i dont wish to add further to this thread marcitos,i feel i have said all i want to.
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I feel you are asking for positive discrimination, not suffering from negative discrimination.
no need to attack djb, you stated you have an issue with one hand / forearm. nothing more or less. djb commented that this is not a major disability issue ( compared with the disabled folk djb volunteers with )
as for The law as I understand it is that a service provider should seek to remove or alter a physical obstruction if it interferes with, in my case, the normal use of my plot.
do you want the committee to remove the hedge?
I understand you may be angry with your committee, but taking it out on folk trying to give support / advice ain't the best way forward!
rgds, Tony
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Hi Tonybloke
Just want the hedge to be manageable.
Prior to the communication you have chosen to use as an example. dj did post
'I have all the time in the world for helping others but I do resent anyone trying to say that they can offload their responsibilities under their tenancy agrremment onto others as a right'
Please, I am lost in how to know how that was helpful. Who had I upset prior to that?
Regards
Marcitos
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Jeez, if you treat everyone who tries to help you the same way, I'm not surprised you're struggling to get help. I'll help pretty much anyone who needs a hand, but I can't say I'd give up my time to help someone who thought it was their right and started quoting laws at me. I think this is about your personality, not your disability.
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Please, I am lost in how to know how that was helpful. Who had I upset prior to that?
Marcitos, I support your argument, but I think you should make an effort to understand that not everyone will be sympathetic for the kind of reasons that djb has taken the time to explain to you.
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks to those who have helped. Apologies to those I've upset. I'll give it a rest.
Regards
Marcitos
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks to those who have helped. Apologies to those I've upset. I'll give it a rest.
Regards
Marcitos
Let me know if you want me to help with your hedge :)
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where in the UK are you ,marcitos?