Allotments 4 All
General => News => Topic started by: flytrapman on January 17, 2011, 13:20:55
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A few months ago the local council said I was acting illegally by composting without a licence
Following a inspection by the environment agency and postings on this forum the council admitted I was not breaking any laws and did not need any composting licences
I made complaints that the council had failed to apply for licences for their own allotments which they admitted
The council have now complained to the local church who own the allotments
I have now received a letter from the church stating I am banned from the allotments and I have to leave by the 16th February
The letter states I am being banned because I have failed to sign new rules the church warden implemented without any consultation's - It also states there is no appeal to this decision
The letter fails to state what rules I have broken or what the complaints where
They have never wrote to me before and the vicar or church warden have refused to discuss the matter
I have sent an email to the NALSG as I am a member
Any advice or comments would be appreciated
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Do you have a letter stating you are composting without a licence? If it was me I'd take it to the local paper. Sounds like the idiots in charge have made their decision, but at least you would be publicly shaming them.
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nothing to add really only to say how sad for you and how wrong and unfair this is?
Have other allotment holders signed up to these new rules? Was there a warning?
Why is there no appeal?
Where was this decsion taking have you requested minutes of the meeting where this happened?
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I do not understand this at all, I know there was something about manure movement a few years ago which seems to have died the death, but doesn't everyone compost. don't the councils encourage it by providing cheap "daleks" like ours did a few years ago. Isn't it supposed to reduce greenhouse gases and landfill ???
good luck Anne
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Hi
Thanks for your responses
I had a meeting with the council around 10 days ago with their environmental team and the legal department - The environment agency attended as well
I had made FOI requests to the council but they are refusing to release any data
I then made a Data Protection Subject Access request which they eventually released info after kicking and screaming
I found some data which concerned me including a email from the council and the church warden admitted the new rules could not be enforced as he had implemented them on his own back
The council conceded that I had broke no laws and thy had broke them on there own allotments
I asked the council to inform the church that I had not breached any laws because I was concerned that they where not telling the church the truth
I have asked the main vicar for information about complaints but he refused
I am a member of the church and have moved all the grass clippings from the church to compost for the last 2 years
I also dismantled a old rotten greenhouse from the vicarage and tidied up without any thanks
Some of the other plot holders have not grown anything for years, others have large numbers of poultry which are against the rules yet the main vicar refused to discuss this with me
Another vicar who used to have a plot stopped me yesterday and said he was concerned at how they where treating one of the church members and said the rules should of been debated before they where implemented and appears to want to help
I have no intention of giving up the allotment
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Could the be any chance that the main vicar has relation who is after a allotment?
How about making some 'noise' about the vicar...or even complain to his superiors..(I'm not talking about praying..don't go to the ultimate boss yet :-X)he is not behaving like man in his position should >:(
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If he's a C of E vicar, complain to the bishop. Banning you amounts to an eviction - maybe you could use the courts? Why did they think you needed a license to make compost on an allotment?
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Hi
The local paper had already contacted me regarding the local council
I had arranged to see my local MP today regarding the council and she has agreed to write to the church
To clarify the licence issue it is around exemption certificates for composting - The local council (Wigan) deliver me and other plot holders leaves we also get grass clippings from the Wigan Leisure & Culture Trust who carry out all the grass cutting for the council they have also been delivering woodchip as well
The council stopped the delivery from WLCT but have been delivering leaves all the time probably because they do not have composting facilities and have to pay land fill fees
I get leaves, woodchip and grass clippings delivered to another plot on a different site which is owned by the Council and although the council have no exemption certificate they have not said anything about this
It is a C of E church and I have been advised to contact the Arch Deacon
The problems with the church started when the new warden increased the rents by 300% without any consultation
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Poultry is not against the rules, you have a statutory right to keep hens on an allotment and there's little anyone can do about it, doesn't matter what they want to write down in the tenancy it's in the allotments legislation..... Cockerels on the other hand they can get a noise complaint against.
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Maybe the vicar's on the nelson and your spoiling his bunce making. :-X :-X :-X
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The new rules dont ban poultry they say enough to feed a family of four and give a guideline of 4 birds
Some of the plot holders have up to 30
Some keep pigeons and whilst I am not keen on them I am aware they have been kept on the plots for over fifty years
I always thought I got on with the vicar but believe he is backing his new warden
I have the backing of a previous warden
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Poultry is not against the rules, you have a statutory right to keep hens on an allotment and there's little anyone can do about it, doesn't matter what they want to write down in the tenancy it's in the allotments legislation..... Cockerels on the other hand they can get a noise complaint against.
This is very interesting to read......and if I can I will be getting a few hens myself I think...well I would like too!
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Very well done flytrapman for using the FOI and asserting your rights - if everyone did this the tyrants wouldn't even try!
Can you post the letter that purports to ban you please?
Basically the situation is this:
You can't be banned from your allotment. Your landlord has an implicit obligation to give you access. It's important that you ignore any ban and continue to use your allotment just as you always do because you don't want to do anything that might look like you have surrenderd your tenancy - so for example, never, ever give the site keys back however much your landlord blusters.
Your landlord is only able to change the site rules within very narrow margins, and only if the tenancy agreement makes very specific allowances for just those changes. So if for example the tenancy agreement says that the landlord is able to change the rules to comply with new environmental legislation then it would be legitimate to make a new rule about bringing onto site material to compost, but the rule would still have to be introduced with enough notie for you to quit your plot in good order (which is probably a minimum of 12 months notice), and it wouldn't be retrospective. But if the tenancy agreement contains a general provision for the landlord to change the rules the term is unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and any new rule is unenforceable.
If the agreement doesn't say anything about making new rules then any new rule is also unenforceable.
A landlord is always able to give notice to terminate your tenancy (a minimum of 12 months notice expiring on the last day of the tenancy year) and then offer you a new tenancy on new terms with new rules.
To evict you for breaking a rule the landlord must comply with S.146 Law of Property 1925 which says you have to be given written notice of exactly what rule you're breaking and given enough time to put the matter right, and if you put it right in a reasonable time you can't be evicted.
None of that stops ignorant and/or tyranical landlords trying it on, and if they wan't listen to reason (and tyrants seldom do) then your choice is either to stand your ground or capitulate and leave - which you chose is always up to you because no one will fight your battle for you. But it helps to know your rights.
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Well this does sound downright un christian to me, and very underhanded, like there is a hidden agenda here...
I hope you suceed , and common sense prevails through these bully boy tactics.
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Some of the most unchristian behaviour I've ever seen has been in churches! They're like any other voluntary group, they're vulnerable to inadequate little so-and-so's who want to build little empires for themselves, and award themselves a bit of petty power.
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Sunday Christians?
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In fairness I think you'll find the church has something of a tradition of kicking people out of their gardens for breaking the rules whereof they were told not to break.
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I will try and get the letter scanned and uploaded but it will take a few days
I did point out to the vicar how during the service he tells the congregation to shake each others hand and offer the hand of friendship. His reply was this conversation is going know where and he terminated the phone call
I have no intention of vacating the plots, once you see the letter you will realise that they did not take legal advice
My friend who is 79 and has had a plot on the site for over 20 years has been sent the same letter
I am still struggling with the council trying to get them disclose information from my subject access request
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In fairness I think you'll find the church has something of a tradition of kicking people out of their gardens for breaking the rules whereof they were told not to break.
rofl!!
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Hi Sorry to hear that you have had such unfair and unreasonable treatment from your allotment goveners.
Hopefully the letter they recived from your MP and the environment agency will alter thier attitude.
But it sounds like these people are more concerned about you obeying thier power than running the allotments fairly and all to often in situations like this where ignorant people have power , fighting their judgement will make them act even more despotic and even if you win the day they will find every opportunity to harrange you in the future. So consider your future really well have a look around at other sites and have a plan b. Not all allotment sites are run by power mad emotional morons and maybe finding a new site would make your time on the plot much less stressful.
fight a good fight but protect yourself to.
good luck
x sunloving
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If it were me then I would just leave and let them get on with it. I would find it too stressful to be around people like that. As for listening to them preaching from the pulpit I would go loaded with me own grown tomatoes
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You and me both Shirl and throw in a few rotten cabbages. ;D ;D ;D
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But it sounds like these people are more concerned about you obeying thier power than running the allotments fairly and all to often in situations like this where ignorant people have power , fighting their judgement will make them act even more despotic and even if you win the day they will find every opportunity to harrange you in the future. So consider your future really well have a look around at other sites and have a plan b. Not all allotment sites are run by power mad emotional morons and maybe finding a new site would make your time on the plot much less stressful.
That is the post of the century! It's so true.
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I completely and utterly disagree with sunlovers advice to find another site. If you do that, no matter what the outcome of this current dispute, you will have let them win. Stick to your guns, it`s the world against this a******e warden and his puppet vicar. YOU ARE RIGHT. :)
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First i am very sorry for all the hard work you have done for no reward, You have helped and been shat from above big time. Let the local do a story on it may be they are looking to put out line planing permision on it in the near future. Please dont let them get you down dont know a lot about allotment law but you have the support of a lot of friends on here
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If you don't fight these bullies they feel encouraged, and go and treat someone else even worse. It's probably got to this point because nobody stopped it earlier. If you let them do it they could destroy the whole site. I've seen churches closed as a result of people like that.
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Whilst I agree with sunlover that some people will not be happy and I did not want the hassle I have no intention of crumbling and intend to fight
I have now been told the environmental officer from the council told the church if they did not take action against me he would take action against the church
A guy who delivered some wood for raised beds has now been told he is being investigated for illegally depositing waste and having no waste carriers licence- Although I have written confirmation from the Environment Agency that it is ok to deliver items for reuse
Senior members of the church have told me the new warden has caused more trouble in the 5 years he has been at our church than the chuch has had in over 100 years and had to leave his old church for causing trouble
I was at the allotment on Monday and am still using it
Thanks for your advice and concerns
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FTM you have our best wishes.
Right now on TV all we see are council workers bleating about cuts and how the public will suffer through loss of their services. But some much of the councils energies seem to go on crap like this, whether malicious or just plain incompeteny. I for one find it hard to be sympathetic to their cause.
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^^ sorry for my rant, it is just that our money is funding this persecution. If only you were a black lesbian single mother FTM.
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If others confirm that the warden has a record of troublemaking, that definitely calls for a complaint to C or E officialdom. See if you can get him kicked out again!
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If others confirm that the warden has a record of troublemaking, that definitely calls for a complaint to C or E officialdom. See if you can get him kicked out again!
Bell, book and candle. ;)
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The Cardinal rose with a dignified look,
He call'd for his candle, his bell and his book!
In holy anger and pious grief,
He solemnly cursed that rascally thief!
He cursed him at board, he cursed him in bed;
From the sole of his foot to the crown of his head;
He cursed him in sleeping, that every night
He should dream of the devil and wake in a fright;
He cursed him in eating, he cursed him in drinking,
He cursed him in coughing, in sneezing, in winking;
He cursed him in sitting, in standing, in lying;
He cursed him in walking, in riding, in flying,
He cursed him in living, he cursed him in dying!--
Never was heard such a terrible curse!
But what gave rise
To no little surprise,
Nobody seem'd one penny the worse!
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No surprise then that jackdaws are one of my favourite birds!
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;D
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flytrapman,
I have read some awful stories regarding our 'religeous' fellow beings but your breeze beats them all.
You say the allotment land is owned by the Church.
I smell a rat. Our village had a vicar some years ago who tried & failed to get building permission on church land due to dangerous access. He was entitled to do this as this was part of a vicars living.
I suspect there's an agenda here! Our own village allotments are owned by the Church Warden(only one) and we are extremely fortunate as we all get on like a house on fire.
The Church Warden, in your case, needs sorting out. Go through the appropriate channels whilst checking the town/borough/ planning applications.
Good luck & keep us all informed!!
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^^ sorry for my rant, it is just that our money is funding this persecution. If only you were a black lesbian single mother FTM.
You want to cut back on the Daily Mail a bit denbyvisitor! ;D It's not a council site and there's been no mention of minorities for you get hot and bothered about. (Although of course you have no idea how many of us might be black, lesbian or single mothers so you'd better be careful about what you say ;))
Good luck with it, Flytrapman. Sounds like you just need to be patient and wait for it all to finally be sorted. I wonder what's wrong with that man, making so much trouble everywhere he goes.
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Thanks for the responses
The land was left to the church for the growing of fruit and veg by local people so it cannot be sold for building
The church do nothing towards the upkeep of the plots
We do not have any commitee and had no problems until the church appointed a new warden
I did not take any offence to denbyvisitors post and actually I am mixed race but it has not helped me
I have had a load of woodchip delivered today and will be on the plots this weekend
I guess nothing will happen until the deadline expires (16/2/11) but im going knowwhere
The principal officer of the environmental officers from the council told me they normally deal with dog fouling so I guess dog crap is their specialist subject
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My suggestion is to get a look at the original will that left the money. I am not sure I understand why the churchwarden feel he controls the situation.
I would say it is onwards and upwards. The C of E church is not a dictatorship it is run by a parochial church council and finally up to the Synod. The Queen actually is the head of the C of E and she has an 'allotment'.
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FTM, can you post the letter from the church as it might suggest a few obvious ways to defeat this nonsense, and it always helps you stand your ground when you're confident of your rights.
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I have asked the main vicar for details of the covenant and other information including details of any complaints against me but he refused to discuss it
I intend to make representations to his seniors which I think is the Arch Deacon
Unwashed I have tried to post the letter without success and have sent you a pm
There are 2 new church wardens who replaced the old wardens. One of them appears to have ruffled feathers and wants to change a lot of things and Ive not heard anyone say a good thing about him yet, however as I go to a service at a different time to him when I attend church I have never met him
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I don't trust church officers who march in wanting to make a load of changes. The people who know what's needed are usually sitting in the pews, and that sort never listen to them.
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I've responded to the PM, and I'll post the text of what FTM is sending me.
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The expression "practice what you preach comes to mind" there is clearly more to this than meets the eye.
It seems like you are now getting on with the council but can you post your request for information and their refusal as I can't see they have a leg to stand on and as they must by now have exceeded the time limit could be reported to the Information Commissioner.
By the way you don't have to make a formal request quoting the FOI as public bodies are obliged to treat any request for information as being subject to the FOI rules.
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Fight the good fight.....
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Thanks for the letter FTM, I've received it now. As you described, you've been evicted for an unspecified breach of rules which you haven't agreed to. You've been told to clear off by the 16th and that the church will dispose of your stuff after that and charge you for it. you have been declined any appeal.
It's all completely unenforceable, but it shows how badly wrong landlords can get it.
S.146 Law of Property 1925 mandates the process for evicting a tenant who is in breach of the rules, and if the landlord doesn't follow the statutory requirements carefully the eviction can't be enforced in court. You have to be told specifically what rule it is you're breaking, and you have to be given reasonable opportunity to put the matter right.
You can't be banned from your allotment while you're a tenant as you have an implicit right of access to your plot.
Those are your rights. Enforcing is a bit more involved. It's a long post so I'll do it tomorrow.
Are your getting support from the NSALG?
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Thanks unwashed. I have contacted the NSALG and the local rep has agreed to contact the church. I have now got 10 plot holders to join the NSALG
I have 3 plots one of the plots suffered a major fire after the shed and greenhouse where destroyed by fire late last year. 1 of my other plots had not had crops grown on it prior to me taking it on for at least 10 years and the remaining plot had been abandoned and was full of rubbish and had not been used since before 1976 until I started to create a plot on it.
My friend Les who is the other person who has received the same letter banning him from the allotments contacted the local paper who printed a article
http://www.wigantoday.net/news/oap_told_to_get_off_untidy_allotment_1_2981537
The picture shows another plot and my burned out greenhouse and shed, it also states 2 people refused to sign the new agreement but at least another person refused to sign it. I
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It's such a miserable shame that these church people can't be more helpful and understanding.
Note that you don't have to sign any new agreement, but it would always be possible for the church to give you 12 months notice to quit if you didn't. Of course that isn't what they've done, they've just tried to forfeit the tenancy and they can't do that.
I'm very pleased you've got the NSALG to represent you. You're in the right, but defending your rights is tricky and stressful and we don't need that as allotmenteers. I mean, fair do's, there's a mess to be cleared up right enough, but the church should be talking to all the tenants about how to do it between you, and not picking on people and making up the law as they go.
Very best of luck, I'm pleased the paper got involved, it's a good piece.
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It would have been better if they'd shown a pic of your plot, Flytrapman, alongside that eyesore!
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It would have been better if they'd shown a pic of your plot, Flytrapman, alongside that eyesore!
I agree with Robert, unfortunatly people will see the picture and not always read the whole article, I'd ask to have another pic used with an explanation in next weeks paper.