Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: brownowl23 on January 11, 2011, 08:19:49
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OK ive had my plots for 2 years. My plot was prior to my taking it on just one big plot, and all the compost heap, shed and a couple of very large trees, are all on what is now the "B" side. Now this obviously isnt a problem when its all one plot but as it stands as two halves of a whole then it means they hog alot of a half plot
Ive had cultivation notices for both years ive had my "b" plot and pleaded with the council to keep my plot, and I found this quite upsetting last year as i'd worked really hard particularly on the "b" side of the plot.
Well having got my bill for this year for both sides of the plot, and ive scurtinised all the information that goes with it. sheds trees and compost heaps all have to take up less than 25% of the plot or half plot, which on my "b"side is not the case they take up more.
Ive decided to phone the council later today and ask for a meeting on plot so that they can see my problems and ask if, as I own both "A" and "B" side, that the tenancy can be rewritten so that it is once again just plot 23. After all if they took this half the plot away from me then the next person would have the same cultivation issue.
Its not as if I havent been working hard ive been down on plot diggin both this week and last to try and get all my winter/spring digging done so that I pass the next inspections and ime really looking forward to this years growing season so many scrummy things to grow
does anyone else have any advice before I commence battle ;)
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It is a bit early for straight talking but TBH it sounds like you think that merging the 2 plots will make it difficult for the Council to take either A or B away from you if you get another letter about non-cultivation.
So I don't think they'll buy it.
The first year or two can be really hard when you get a new plot, I am in the same place, this will be my 3rd year and even now I am not on top of it. But things improve as you become more efficient and you start to tame a plot. But you need to do some very clear thinking about whether the plot is too much and would you do better giving some of it up.
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If both sides of the plot have been worked to an adequate standard, and the problem is simply that you have your bins etc under the trees, I wouldn't think they've got much of a case. Try a local councillor or your MP. The trees predated your tenancy so they shouldn't be a problem. What size are they - are they too big for you to reasonably cut them down yourself?
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Brownowl23, do you actually have two seperate tenancy agreements for the A and B sides?
What kind of trees are they, and how big exactly - tell me the diameter of the stem at chest height - ,and how old would you guess.
Could you cut the trees down if you wanted to? Would you want to?
Would you be within the 25% thing if you moved the compost bin.
Could you put a growbag on top of the compost bin and call it a raised bed?
Could you give the council back the portion of the B-plot with the trees on it?
How big is the b-plot?
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both plots are 125square meteres (pr is it feet, whatever the standard is) so ive 250 overall. the trees are a very very old apple tree ( has a serious lean and a very large set of roots and a big plum tree. the compost area which is very well constructed to the point of being indestructable is next to the apple tree but it is big. its too well built for me to destruct and move on my own.
The plum tree has nothing under but roots are close to the surface so unless I did raised beds then nothing would grow under it. Unless of course I threw some country garden seed under it and then I suppose it would class as cultivated but I dont feeel this is the spirit of allotments.
The trees are way too big for me to be able to cut down myself and I wouldnt want to as they are great for fruit
Ive also got a fox in the compost heap that I am trying to get rid of, although council arent being that helpful, in fact their no 1 suggested repellant is renardine which is banned!! they also sent me a leaflet more designed for households than allotment holders. Ive had better advice on here to be honest.
Yes I do have two seperate tenancy agreements, and if combined I would be within the 25% cultivation rule. The trees and shed and heap make up about 35-40% of the "b" plot. Hence the fact they are saying that depite all beds ebing cultivated its not cultivated enough in the past, which by thier rules is right.
They decided at the time I took it on that they had a big waiting list and would split plots across the middle with no account of if they would pass cultivation, but if someone wanted two half plots they could take them. They now have no waiting list at all and empty plots on our site.
the council annoy me as I was offered a previous plot prior to taking mine on that allegedly had 3 huge bullace? (plum like treees) on it. They swore to me they were fruit trees and now ive seen them in leaf they are clearly an oak, and 2 sycamore. So the council just want to get plots rented but will then complain that you arent doing what the rules state you should.
What I am trying to do now I realise ive a problem is find a solution that will keep me within thier rules.
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I'm guessing that the agreement allows you to have trees - well fruit tress count as cultivation, and a big tree casts a big shadow which obviously you can't grow anything else on. So add all of the area taken up by the trees to the cultivated tally and where are you now?
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the agreement allows trees but you have to grow under them, which as you say not alot will grow in ground with big roots and lots of shade. if the trees alone counted as cultived then I probably should be OK.
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Does your site have a committee that can help you with this? there may be historical knowledge of the tress they can help you with,ie what the last tenant did to cope with this situation?
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It sounds like all this dates back to before the area became an allotment site. Who plants an oak and 2 sycamores on their plot? Our site is the same, a few plots have trees from when the site was a council playground; you can't grow much near them and you'd need a chainsaw and a digger to get them out. They must understand that, surely, when you point it out to them?
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the agreement allows trees but you have to grow under them, which as you say not alot will grow in ground with big roots and lots of shade. if the trees alone counted as cultived then I probably should be OK.
Can you quote the rule please. It sounds ridiculous.
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i'll put up the paragraph out of the info weve been send and the t&c's from the tenancy when I can locate it. this will be tonight though as boys want a train track ;) No rest for mummy :)
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There are things you can grow under a tree, raspberries, for instance. I do think they're being childish, though. If I was in your position I'd complain, either to a councillor or my MP if that failed.
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There are things you can grow under a tree, raspberries, for instance. I do think they're being childish, though. If I was in your position I'd complain, either to a councillor or my MP if that failed.
I guess their intention might be to allow small trees, where the smallness is defined by them not casting significant shade, such as cordons and espalliers, and I can understand reasons for doing that, but if that's the case they would have been better to say so explicitly because it's not unheard of to be allowed to grow standards. And in any case, as the tenant is taking on a plot with existing standards it seems perverse to demand that the ground under the tree is cultivated. Can you eat wood sorrel?
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We have lots of standard trees on our site, it's a feature that we (and the Council) are keen to retain. If they wanted to restrict the type of tree, they'd need to say so explicitly. It would be too late in the case of an existing tree anyway.
Wood sorrel is edible, and some of us grow a South American species!
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To me it sounds like they're not acting in the spirit of the rules. And making more work for themselves as a result.
Surely this is land which has been subsidised by the tax payer to help people grow fruit and veg, and the only reason to start the 75% cultivation rule is to stop people renting it and then covering it with paving and deck chairs. When we look at you, you are using this land as it was intended, to grow fruit and veg. Job done for the council - no need to worry.
Why are they fussing about it? ???
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To me it sounds like they're not acting in the spirit of the rules. And making more work for themselves as a result.
Surely this is land which has been subsidised by the tax payer to help people grow fruit and veg, and the only reason to start the 75% cultivation rule is to stop people renting it and then covering it with paving and deck chairs. When we look at you, you are using this land as it was intended, to grow fruit and veg. Job done for the council - no need to worry.
Why are they fussing about it? ???
why do you assume that allotments are subsidised by the tax-payer?
well run sites (and they may also be self-managed) should cost the council nothing to run!! (ours don't cost the tax-payer anything)
well, they do put my number on their website, but the cost ain't much for just that.
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If the council run sites, they have to employ a person or people to manage them, which is expensive, they do things like rubbish collection and boundary maintenance, occasionally there may be legal disputes (as is the case with a neighbouring property on our site), public funds are sometimes available to improve allotment sites (eg toilets or water or sheds). They sometimes pay contractors to maintain sites (as is the case on ours).
Also the council keep land available for allotments, which might be valuable land for development.
I know the situation varies a lot from place to place, but in lots of areas there must be many ways in which public funds subsidise allotments.
I'm not complaining about that, I think it's a good thing to spend money on.
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Our allotment plots are in a corner of a recreation ground (a large one) and are run by the council. They have in our pack with out bill sent a survey and one of the questions was would you be willing t be a delegate for delegated management, to which I have answered yes.
The blurb re trees in my bill pack is - HOw an I grow trees without breaching cultivation rules?
PLanting large areas of trees that exceed 25 % of your allotment plot allowed within your leisure area will be in breach of rules. In order to grow fruit trees and include it within your cultivated area you will need to grow crops underneath trees. All fruit trees must be on dwarf stock and kept to an acceptable height so that they do not cause excessive shading.
The trees I have are standards, the apple tree is big but as it leans it only goes over my plot, and the compost area which is big (excessive really but what was already there) is under it. At the minute there is no way I can demolish the compost heap a) because I have a fox in it b) its so big it would require at least two of us and a sldge hammer c) because ive done my back in and I think my osteopath might bury me 6ft under if I did anything as strenous as that, she's already going to kill me today for digging but hey, I class it as a good gym workout.
In our conditions of tenancy it states that you must have prior written consent from the council to prune trees
We have only just started to have rubbish collections ( 2 in the last 6 months), but by the time I got there at 9.30 am the skip had been filled. seems that I underestimated the fact that normally i see no-one on site at weekends before the afternoon, so I thought 9.30 was early enough. the second one I missed as I was on holiday. I am going to ask if we can have another one soon.
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That's OK for newly planted trees, but I don't see how it can reasonably be applied retrospectively; you didn't 'plant' the trees. When did the rule come into force?
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Brownowl, can you post the actual term of the tenancy agreement that says about growing stuff under trees, because I think what you've posted is your council's comments on what you're doing, and we need to see the actual ruloe they're relying on. Thanks.
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It sounds like they have put a Q&A sheet in with the bill. Frequently Asked Questions.
But it seems to refer to 2 separate rules.
1) if you are going to plant trees, they must not cover more than 25% of the plot.
2) your allotment must be cultivated to 75% (or less? more??) to pass as Cultivated, or they send you a letter. But you can't include your trees in that figure unless you are growing stuff under them.
A get out clause for people who plant a few trees to make up the cultivation has been closed. Because of course you are not going to be growing much under any kind of fruit tree.
Maybe you could ask them what you can be reasonably expected to do to pass muster.
Edited to add: perhaps this means that plot b needs to have all available ground dug and planted to pass, because of the structures and trees already there
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Brownowl, can you post the actual term of the tenancy agreement that says about growing stuff under trees, because I think what you've posted is your council's comments on what you're doing, and we need to see the actual ruloe they're relying on. Thanks.
unwashed in the conditions of tenancy it only states that the plot has to be 75% cultivated. we have a condition that states we arent allowed to grow any uncultiavated balckberries. However there is no clause about trees.
What I have posted is the commenst that came in the pack with the bill which was generic to everyone, and included comments about cultivation, helpful hints on watering from Kitchen Garden (very useful), information about bonfires and also about foxes (not so useful as they recommend renardine).
SO as you see the comments arent directed at me. they are to every allotment holder. WHat im doing is trying to avoid an inevitable cultivation notice on plot B as I cannot get 75% cultivated with trees and structures.
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Give the trees a bit of a prune and if you'll pardon the pun "spruce up".... surely they then become "cultivated and the land they cover and shade would also be "cultivated.... knock up some pallet wood + old window cold frames and stick them underneath and grow lettuces in them..... If you inherit large trees then there must be a way round that clause....
chrisc
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Brownowl - do you know how long the compost bins have been there? The description of the trees sound as if they have been there 10 years plus. It seems to me that the council has accepted this practice for some time (custom & practice) Do you know why the plot became available. if the last tenant was not evicted because of these issues I do think you have a case - so long as the rest of the cultivatable space is in tip top condition.
Being required to grow under fruit trees seems just bonkers - a rule created by a non-gardener. Surely as they are
productive they count as part of the cultivated area.
My inclination would be to stop trying to comply with the uncompliable and start asking some questions.........FOI if necessary.
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I have just planted comfrey under some trees to make use of the ground- would that be a use for it. If they don't know what comfrey is just quote Lawrence Hills at them. sure to be impressed!
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Brownowl - do you know how long the compost bins have been there? The description of the trees sound as if they have been there 10 years plus. It seems to me that the council has accepted this practice for some time (custom & practice) Do you know why the plot became available. if the last tenant was not evicted because of these issues I do think you have a case - so long as the rest of the cultivatable space is in tip top condition.
Being required to grow under fruit trees seems just bonkers - a rule created by a non-gardener. Surely as they are
productive they count as part of the cultivated area.
My inclination would be to stop trying to comply with the uncompliable and start asking some questions.........FOI if necessary.
In answer to your questions the apple tree has been there I would guess as long as the allotments have and I dont know how long that is, y guess would be 20 years or so its a very old tree.
The last long term guy there passed on in 2008, then there was someone who took it over for a year or just under, and by all accounts didnt do alot to it, weve had it 2 years in March.
Pumpkin lover comfrey sounds a good idea and of course a great fertilizer.
I phoned the council today big wig lady isnt in she still has flu. the girl I spoke to didnt think that putting the plot back to one would cause alot of problems, but it would solve mine. :)
Ive now got to consturct an email
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let us know how you get on, it really does sound like the best solution is to create one large plot / tenancy
anyway good luck
1066 :)
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Of course it's all very well me suggesting to you that your council are over-zealous in their interpretation of your tenancy agreement, but unless they're willing to be reasonable (and it's not often that councils are) you could end up fighting an eviction letter. It wouldn't bother me, and I think more people should stand up to this kind of small-minded tyranny, but unless you're up for a fight over this then I suggest you either need to find a councillor who will intercede for you, or else capitulate. But then again, if you can neither move your shed and bins, nor cut down the trees you really have nothing to lose by ignoring them.
Sorry to be slow though, but have the council actually given you a cultivation letter yet? Because if they haven't this might all very well be a storm in a tea cup.
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unwashed no cultivation letter yet, they'd be a bit harsh sending one out in JAnaury ;) No theyve sent out the invoices with all the rules and regs and associated blurb and on reading them ive realised why ive got cultivation notices for plot B even though every bed is full. So I was after advice on how to proceeed.
Thanks to all of you though I have many good ideas on what to put into my email to the big wig that will hopefully mean a change to one full plot tenancy rather thna two halves.
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Our letters are sent out at Christmas!
But good luck brownowl - I hope they're reasonable with you and it all gets sorted out.
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I work for the council and my view is that local government is a hub for incompetence. I also received a cultivation letter last year despite the considerable improvements made to my plot.
As a result I now keep photographic evidence in the form of a blog.
Councils make my blood boil. >:( Idiots!
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I’ve read this one with a lot of interest as I’m one of the big wigs where Brownowl23 lives and also have 2 plots my self.
So what qualifies me to give my answer/opinion?
Chairman of BFALG for several years, been growing on allotments for aprox 45 years the last 34 years as a plot keeper in my own right, member of the RHS, NVS, NSALG, Horticultural Judge and member of many plant societies. The driving force behind the regeneration of 2 allotment sites and the person who some credit for saving 23 allotment sites from closure including the site Browowl23 is on.
And the other big wig has also been an allotment holder, NSALG member, advisor to ARI as well as working for the local authority.
So between us we have a rough idea of allotment keeping.
The tenancy agreement that we use has been through the courts a little while ago when we had a person who refused to cultivate their plot to the required level and was approved & complemented by the judge.
The questions and answer paper that went out this year is only a guide to why and how we (BFALG & the Council) deal with cultivation surveys here in Bexley. These were carried out 3 times in 2008, 2009 and again last year and we expect them to follow suit this year. Notices are placed on site gates & notice boards advising allotment holders of cultivation surveys & when they can expect them to be done. So no one can say “I didn’t know about cultivation surveys”.
These are carried out under guidance of the Allotment Act 1922, the Thorpe report 1969 & ARI etc.
The question and answer paper sent out this year is based on how other Council’s have advised their allotment holders (i.e. Brighton & Hove have a similar one on their web site.) This we helped to produce following the feed back from our allotment holders (over 2000 borough wide) via our committee, some who have taken on an allotment with out any idea of what is required to keep an allotment going but like to jump on the band wagon.
By Law you have to cultivate 75% of your plot. This means actively preparing the ground and growing a crop i.e. vegetables, fruit (soft) or flowers for harvesting. The other 25% can not be left to detereaite and allowed to go to weed. (This can then be classed as a nuisance, weeds act 1959 etc) We have had this argument thrown back to us when the 25% area is full of uncultivated brambles, weeds or called a wild life area. Within that 25% you should keep your shed (no larger than 6X8) composting area and if you wish to have a seating area. (Dare I say car park)
The question from Brownowl23 re her apple tree.
I quote the full statement below from the Q & A paper.
How can I grow fruit trees without breeching cultivation rules?
Planting large areas of fruit trees that exceed the 25% of your allotment plot allowed within your leisure area will be in breech of rules. In order to grow fruit trees and include these within your cultivated area you need to grow crops underneath trees. All fruit trees must be grown on a dwarfing root stock and kept to an acceptable height so they do not cause excessive shade.
The area under the trees should be cultivated by keeping it clean, clear and tidy i.e. a lawn with mown grass and not left to grow wild.
So DenbyVisitor has hit the nail right on the head.
We have had people take on plots and just planted trees on them, then leave. This has caused problems when new tenants then take on a plot and are unable to cope with what is then a forest. We even had someone take on a plot and fill it with native trees (oaks, beech etc) and another person filled a plot with Christmas trees to grow on and sell. Neither of these is classed as allotment keeping.
As the trees on her plot are historical then there is no problem with them as they were there when the plot was taken on, they were never mentioned in her previous non cultivation letters, nor was her compost bin or shed. We would however expect the fruit trees to be maintained, this includes pruning the tree to help improve cropping, disease and pest control. However native trees which form part of the hedge line on sites are exempt from this and should not be touched or pruned, as per the tenancy agreement, this is down to the council’s maintenance team and as far as I’m aware there are no hedges around her site.
Plot size: our plot size now averages 125sqm as we have found this to be the optimum size that new plot holders can cope with. When we did let 250sqm plots most tenants would repeatedly get a non cultivation letter for only cultivating 50% etc.
Delegated management: Here we have 7 sites out of 36 which are self managed under licences from the council. These are quite large sites with over 100 plus plot holders. They keep all the rent they take in, which is used to help improve the site for their allotment holders. These improvements include building toilets, new water tank’s, maintaining & replacing broken equipment etc. the down side is that out of the rents they must pay all the bills for the site i.e. public liability insurance, water bills & equipment maintenance. The site brownowl23 is on is very small and I don’t believe the rental income would cover the insurance payment alone. (Minimum £5 million pounds worth) nor would it cover the water rates.
I still have an original tenancy agreement where you could only grow soft fruit on an allotment no fruit trees were allowed, you could only plant crops that could be harvested with 12 months so that stopped you planting asparagus or other long term vegetables nor were flowers allowed.
We’ve come a long way since then with greenhouses and poly tunnels on our sites.
Can any other council/allotment society boast that they have invested almost £500,000 on site improvements in the past 6 years without hiking up the rents as we have all read about on this site?
So my question to Brownowl23, why has she not spoken to her site committee representative or contacted me directly?
Bill
Chairman BFALG
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WOW! Bill thats some list of qualifications, all very well but do you have a Blue Peter badge. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Makes a pleasant addition to hear both sides of the story.
I sense your frustration Bill and as Secretary for my allotment site I can empathise. I do struggle though with this expectation that plotholders should grow under their fruit trees - this could work while the trees are young but would be a lost cause with a mature tree.
What advice or suggestions do you offer people such as BrownOwl who take on plots with mature fruit trees?
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We have a lot of old fruit trees on our site, and managing them isn't as easy as telling plotholders 'you have to prune these trees'. Firstly, they may not all need pruning. Once the shape of the tree is established, regular pruning isn't normal practice. Secondly, if a mature tree needs pruning, the job may well be beyond the plotholder. Most people don't know how to approach it, and even if they do, they may not be physically capable, or have sufficient confidence to tackle cutting large branches, possibly up a ladder.
If you force people to take on jobs like this, and they have an accident, it could lead to a court case and very bad publicity.
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Bill, I don't see that brownowl was being critical of her site management, she was simply asking the forum for advice. That's a good thing to do before she approaches her site management so that she knows her rights and doesn't get pushed around - I'm not saying it would have happened here, and nor is brownowl, but it does happen.
The Q&A isn't the tenancy agreement, and if there isn't a rule in the tenancy agreement about trees then sorry, but trees count towards the 75% cultivation area.
There is nothing in the 1922 Act about site inspections, and there is no law that says you have to cultivate 75% of your plot.
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^^ I am not sure that is right. The tenancy agreement will say: I agree to abide by the allotment site rules. And the rules will state: 75% cultivation, not including trees unless there are annual crops growing underneath.
To require 75% cultivation is relatively high but then the plots are relatively small so perhaps it is not unreasonable.
But it is difficult to make any judgement about cultivation of a plot by listening to the plotholder talk about it. If you have ever watched the videos of Alys Fowler on her allotment, she is obviously knowledgeable and hardworking with a productive plot but at the end of the day it is still Weed City man, it is a shocker.
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Chaiman said: "By Law you have to cultivate 75% of your plot." But to my knowledge there is no such law. Do you know otherwise?
At this point we still don't know what the tenancy agreement says so it would be helpful is someone was to post the actual agreement.
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^^ we agree, there is no "law" which says you must cultivate 75% of your plot.
However, you may still be required to cultivate 75% of your plot to stay within your tenancy agreement (see previous post).
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However, you may still be required to cultivate 75% of your plot to stay within your tenancy agreement (see previous post).
Yes, but that isn't the point as issue.
Of course we don't know exactly what the tenancy agreement says, so hopefully we'll get that posted soon. If it requires 75% cultivation and there isn't anything about trees in the agreement then the area under a big apple tree will count towards that 75% and that business in the Q&A about only growing on dwarfing rootstock and planting under trees is unenforceable.
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^^ Bill has indicated that their tenancy agreement structure is similar to that of Brighton and Hove City Council. On B&H CC's website it indicates that you agree to the allotment rules when you sign the tenancy agreement. Of course it is possible that he is making this up as he goes along (and it wouldn't be the first time this has happened) but I suspect not this time. Care for a small wager, UW :P ??
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^^ Bill has indicated that their tenancy agreement structure is similar to that of Brighton and Hove City Council. On B&H CC's website it indicates that you agree to the allotment rules when you sign the tenancy agreement.
In general you need to abide by the terms of your tenancy agreement. However, if the rules are in a seperate document that you weren't given before your signed your tenancy agreement then those rules are unenforceable because it is unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 to bind a consumer to terms she hasn't had the opportunity to see and agree to, and a terms that deems the rules to apply if you sign the agreement is also unfair and unenforceable. So if it's true that the rules are incorporated into the tenancy agreement it's not looking good for Bill.
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On the other hand, would you really rely on that?? Having sat on your plot with the allotment rules in you hands for 2 years paying rent and getting letters and not saying a dickie bird?? I think you might find that constituted agreement.
My money is still on Bill :P
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If I'd been let a plot with a couple of wacking great trees on it then I'd have a reasonable expectation to be able to have a shed and compost bin without any problem, and I'm not sure that Bill wouldn't agree. However, if my site management wanted to be stupid about it then yes, absolutely, I'd rely on consumer protection legislation to ensure that my site management got things properly in perspective.
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I’ve read this one with a lot of interest as I’m one of the big wigs where Brownowl23 lives and also have 2 plots my self.
So what qualifies me to give my answer/opinion?
Chairman of BFALG for several years, been growing on allotments for aprox 45 years the last 34 years as a plot keeper in my own right, member of the RHS, NVS, NSALG, Horticultural Judge and member of many plant societies. The driving force behind the regeneration of 2 allotment sites and the person who some credit for saving 23 allotment sites from closure including the site Browowl23 is on.
And the other big wig has also been an allotment holder, NSALG member, advisor to ARI as well as working for the local authority.
So between us we have a rough idea of allotment keeping.
The tenancy agreement that we use has been through the courts a little while ago when we had a person who refused to cultivate their plot to the required level and was approved & complemented by the judge.
The questions and answer paper that went out this year is only a guide to why and how we (BFALG & the Council) deal with cultivation surveys here in Bexley. These were carried out 3 times in 2008, 2009 and again last year and we expect them to follow suit this year. Notices are placed on site gates & notice boards advising allotment holders of cultivation surveys & when they can expect them to be done. So no one can say “I didn’t know about cultivation surveys”.
These are carried out under guidance of the Allotment Act 1922, the Thorpe report 1969 & ARI etc.
The question and answer paper sent out this year is based on how other Council’s have advised their allotment holders (i.e. Brighton & Hove have a similar one on their web site.) This we helped to produce following the feed back from our allotment holders (over 2000 borough wide) via our committee, some who have taken on an allotment with out any idea of what is required to keep an allotment going but like to jump on the band wagon.
By Law you have to cultivate 75% of your plot. This means actively preparing the ground and growing a crop i.e. vegetables, fruit (soft) or flowers for harvesting. The other 25% can not be left to detereaite and allowed to go to weed. (This can then be classed as a nuisance, weeds act 1959 etc) We have had this argument thrown back to us when the 25% area is full of uncultivated brambles, weeds or called a wild life area. Within that 25% you should keep your shed (no larger than 6X8) composting area and if you wish to have a seating area. (Dare I say car park)
The question from Brownowl23 re her apple tree.
I quote the full statement below from the Q & A paper.
How can I grow fruit trees without breeching cultivation rules?
Planting large areas of fruit trees that exceed the 25% of your allotment plot allowed within your leisure area will be in breech of rules. In order to grow fruit trees and include these within your cultivated area you need to grow crops underneath trees. All fruit trees must be grown on a dwarfing root stock and kept to an acceptable height so they do not cause excessive shade.
The area under the trees should be cultivated by keeping it clean, clear and tidy i.e. a lawn with mown grass and not left to grow wild.
So DenbyVisitor has hit the nail right on the head.
We have had people take on plots and just planted trees on them, then leave. This has caused problems when new tenants then take on a plot and are unable to cope with what is then a forest. We even had someone take on a plot and fill it with native trees (oaks, beech etc) and another person filled a plot with Christmas trees to grow on and sell. Neither of these is classed as allotment keeping.
As the trees on her plot are historical then there is no problem with them as they were there when the plot was taken on, they were never mentioned in her previous non cultivation letters, nor was her compost bin or shed. We would however expect the fruit trees to be maintained, this includes pruning the tree to help improve cropping, disease and pest control. However native trees which form part of the hedge line on sites are exempt from this and should not be touched or pruned, as per the tenancy agreement, this is down to the council’s maintenance team and as far as I’m aware there are no hedges around her site.
Plot size: our plot size now averages 125sqm as we have found this to be the optimum size that new plot holders can cope with. When we did let 250sqm plots most tenants would repeatedly get a non cultivation letter for only cultivating 50% etc.
Delegated management: Here we have 7 sites out of 36 which are self managed under licences from the council. These are quite large sites with over 100 plus plot holders. They keep all the rent they take in, which is used to help improve the site for their allotment holders. These improvements include building toilets, new water tank’s, maintaining & replacing broken equipment etc. the down side is that out of the rents they must pay all the bills for the site i.e. public liability insurance, water bills & equipment maintenance. The site brownowl23 is on is very small and I don’t believe the rental income would cover the insurance payment alone. (Minimum £5 million pounds worth) nor would it cover the water rates.
I still have an original tenancy agreement where you could only grow soft fruit on an allotment no fruit trees were allowed, you could only plant crops that could be harvested with 12 months so that stopped you planting asparagus or other long term vegetables nor were flowers allowed.
We’ve come a long way since then with greenhouses and poly tunnels on our sites.
Can any other council/allotment society boast that they have invested almost £500,000 on site improvements in the past 6 years without hiking up the rents as we have all read about on this site?
So my question to Brownowl23, why has she not spoken to her site committee representative or contacted me directly?
Bill
Chairman BFALG
HI Bill thank you very much for your reply.
AS you seem to know which site I am on you will indeed know that our site is one of the few that has no representative listed or I would have done.
AS for cultivation surveys neither my site nor the site next door to it have ever had notice of cultivation surveys posted since I took my plots on. It would be nice to have warning - as you say if you have warning then you can ensure that you do indeed do all you can to ensure you pass.
I did laugh at the car park comment for a start you cant get a car onto our plots - in fact in a weekday afternoon chance is a fine thing to actually get to park anywhere near the site i am on with the parking restrictions in the area. Good job i like a walk to the plot :)
So if you see a lady with stripy wellies and a fork over her shoulder walking towards our plots give me a wave. ;D
I would love to be able to have a chat with you as I never even knew you existed. ??? >:(
Brownowl
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I must add fo rthe sake of others that as far as I am concerned I rented the allotment from the council, if ive had any problems ive contacted them and ive never known of the existence of anyone else other than the council department I rented from.
My site is one of the very few with no site rep, most do have one. Therefore my natural point of contaact is the council.
If there are others out there like Bill why arent we told about them?
I have to say the first plot I was offered suposedly had 3 huge bullace trees on it and a whole laod of uncultivated brambles. The trees have turned out to be sycamore and oaks.
I refused the plot on the basis that i'd need a tree surgeon and a JCB to make it a workable plot. But I was told well someone will take it on, and ive seen it change hands twice in two years, not really a surprise!.
My own trees, both the plum and the apple I would need to sweet talk my cousin whos a tree surgeon to sort out for me as I am afraid I suffer from a fear of heights as does DH. In fact he is unlikely to go up more than a small step ladder, least im not quite that bad ;D
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I'm finding it very concerning when I read this kind of post that the PC brigade are creeping in to our beloved way of life,
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If you can't cope with ladders, the Council can't reasonably expect you to prune the tree. Is it even needed, and would you know what to do if it was? As I say, I'm on the committee of a site with numerous (70+) old fruit trees, and it just ain't that easy!
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I have to say I find it a little disconcertting that Bill can not only seem to identify my plot,but perhaps even has identified me.
I am really hoping that he has just taken a hazardous guess on which plot I am on given my location. It does make me feel very uneasy though.
What really narks me is that he posted here and said why didnt you contact me but he hasnt followed up with a PM to ask if he can do anything to help.
What I wanted from this thread was a little advice and direction. after all just because I feel that something is wrong other people may see it very differently and have very diofferent views which I might not have thought about. The good thing ive found about forums is that its a good way to get a balanced opinion on something and help take into account things that wouldnt have been in your thought pattern.
I love this website for its sense of community and the way it helps others, and although I have had an allotment in the past in another part of the country I am no way an expert, and I an very willing to learn from others who have vast amounts more experience than I.
I do feel though that I may take a few days away from the site as I feel that perhaps I need time to reflect and feel comfortable again with the feeling that my identity is out there and my cards may have been marked.
I do realise that today of all days I do feel a little more sensitive as ive just found out that ive lost my godfather, so emotions are a little all over the place.
Thank you for everyones help though it is really appreciated
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Take some time out brownowl and come back when you feel comfortable.
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sorry to hear about your loss brownowl
x
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thanks guys, feel the need to get down the lottie and beat the "bleep" out of the ground digging it.
Its good therapy and my boys want to know when their plot is dug so they can plant thier seeds. They may only be 3 but theyve got the growing bug :)
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Also very sorry to hear about your loss.
Regarding the plot: DONT PANIC!! You could contact Bill yourself and ask for a meeting to assess what can be done about the trees etc. I wouldn't be spooked about being identified from your posts (Many of us can be) but you might think about holding back a bit in future if you are really bothered.
As they say in business: ABC - Acknowledge, Bridge, Control. Go up - see the big picture. You've got to take a critical look at the whole allotment, write down what needs attention then prioritise and work down the list. You might find neighbours who are only too pleased to help. It's the beginning of the year so the right time to do it.
Good luck, it is hard work and you have to have a game plan and stick to it but as you say in your first post, it is rewarding.
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Hi Brownowl, just wanting to wish you well, and hope you've had some good quality time on the plot. Take care :)
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hope the sun is shining and the birds are singing today for you, Brownowl
pm Bill, and have a meeting on site with him, I'm sure you'll be able to sort it out!!
;)
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Good luck, brownowl and sorry to hear about your godfather.
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Being a nosy busybody I've checked Bill's other posts cos he's "Not So New".... good news brownowl, the chap seems human and a conscientious person trying to get the best for his allotment holders./.. has also offered some sage advice re: cabbages.... I'd suggest PM'ing him to sort out talking about it....
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Chriscrrosss - I have had a PM from him so we are in contact, he had guessed which of two sites I am on based on location so that doesnt make me feel so bad. I will be contacting him to see what more sage advice he can give me.
Now all I need is for the weather to perk up a bit and as soon as the boys are at school im down the plot.
Im taking thme down tomorrow to pick veg, although I know there will be tears as there are no more carrots to pick. ................... Note to self, need to sow tonnes of carrots next year to keep up the demand of one of my boys :)
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Glad to see a silver lining from the cloud- -that's a bit corny!! sorry but you know what I mean. :-[
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well I went down the plot yesterday, got rid of more couch, so my whitecurrants arent strangled, and I started a spring clean, some things may be useful but its amazing how much crap the old guy kept.
Question, what uses do you guys put pallets to. Ive got alot of pallets, now raised beds spring to mind as an obvious use but I just wondered what other uses peeps have put them to.
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compost bins, sheep shelters, firewood, fencing,animal arks.......ooo, lots
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There a lot of uses for pallets compost bins, potateo growers, fenceing, shelveing, repairs to sheds, a very versatile item and you think can not be botherd someone wil always cart them away for you.
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I've made compost heaps, a Badger barrier to protect the sweetcorn and a wildlife hotel. will post photos when been to plot.
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;D I really dont need any more compost heap, mine already mahoosive.
Sheep shelters, me thinks Bill and the council might go nuits on that one. Theyve only just this year allowed us to keep hens, not that im planning to, the fox would get them.
Would spuds grow well in a raised bed uner a tree? Just thinking of the growing under trees situation here. ???
Definately not going to waste them ooh nooo. :o