Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: grawrc on October 14, 2010, 16:06:56
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Just cleared out the darkest recesses of my shed and found Sybol, Nimrod-T, Rapid and Benlate as well as liquid malathion. Are these still legal? How do I find out? And if not, how do I dispose of them?
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This is the database of legal products for garden use. If its not on the database its illegal.
https://secure.pesticides.gov.uk/garden/prodsearch.asp (https://secure.pesticides.gov.uk/garden/prodsearch.asp)
This is about disposal.
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden_home.asp#Disposal (http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden_home.asp#Disposal)
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Sybol, Nimrod-T, Rapid and Benlate as well as liquid malathion. Are these still legal? How do I find out? And if not, how do I dispose of them?
Shhhhhh!! Let me whisper in your ear so the rest can't hear, not sure about Nimrod but the remainder are banned but who's to know 8) If you want to use them, then use them!
Failing that look in here!
http://www.rhs.org.uk/Gardening/Help-advice/Garden-chemicals-and-pesticides (http://www.rhs.org.uk/Gardening/Help-advice/Garden-chemicals-and-pesticides)
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Thank you both! I'll try to clear the shed out more often!
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Don't do that Grawrc, you wouldn't have any surprises/shock if you did that ;).
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I inherited a load of stuff from the previous tenant including a packet of Weedol from the days when it contained Paraquat ("Rainproof and Harmless to soil") and an insecticide spray whose name I can't remember but the active ingredient is lindane.
Paraquat seems to be making a bit of a comeback so you never know!
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Most of these old chemicals were introduced as absolutely 'the thing' - up to date, scientifically tested*, and safer than the old methods.
Only the first was true, the last a part truth (safer than lead arsenate maybe - but more dangerous than nicotine in most environments).
*The middle one was complete nonsense - science is based on DOUBT - it is the opposite of novelty. Some confidence comes with time - but we are talking centuries here...
ONLY FOR THOSE WITH A STRONG STOMACH:-
NB. The one that seems most harmless (Benlate - no smell, no taste) is actually the worst.
Benlate causes almost no side effects in the user - but was banned because some heavy users started having babies with no brains in their skulls...
Time is the only test...
Cheers.
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no brains in their skulls...
Ah!! NowI know why I have persevered with an allotment for so long. :-\
ps Was it not banned because of its Mercury content? ???
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It was eyes not brains. And it was fear of endless litigation that caused the manufacturer to withdraw the product from the market. They were not required to by any Govt Regulatory or environmental body.
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My cousin's teenage son took weed killer as a 'cry for help' unfortunately it was paraquat and they just had to spend the day holding his hand as he died.
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How horrible for you and your family and for the poor young man. My nasties are all safely locked away so unlikely to cause that kind of damage at least. But you're right, it's really not a subject to treat lightly.
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I had a bit of a clear out of the shed on my old plot as I was leaving ..... does anyone know when/why they withdrew Malathion?...I seem to have a fiar amount of it.... from memory it was pretty effective......
chrisc
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I had a bit of a clear out of the shed on my old plot as I was leaving ..... does anyone know when/why they withdrew Malathion?...I seem to have a fiar amount of it.... from memory it was pretty effective......
chrisc
Details of withdrawal are here (http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2160)
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Hmm... like a lot of other things there it looks like no-one was willing to pay the registration fee for it cos it was old and out of patent.... Same's true of Rotenone I guess, it was the only thing that I ever found that kept flea-beetles at bay on young brassicas.... but it's anatural plant extract and if there ever was a patent it had long expired....
chrisc
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i also had a good amount of these products when i cleared my allotment shed out,i have continued to use them to good effect,with no problems,i had 4 tubs of the old type bromofoss for carrott fly,i have not had carrott fly since i started using it again and the carrotts were the best ive ever had this year,i will continue to use it all until it has gone,if it was ok to use it years ago in my book its ok to use it now,i believe its just the stupid european union rules in different countries that are being forced on us british gardeners,they make millions of pounds but wont pay for the patent of a product because the E.U have said they need to take 1 or 2 ingredients out which makes the product ineffective,.,.,.,.,. i will continue to use them.
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i also had a good amount of these products when i cleared my allotment shed out,i have continued to use them to good effect,with no problems,i had 4 tubs of the old type bromofoss for carrott fly,i have not had carrott fly since i started using it again and the carrotts were the best ive ever had this year,i will continue to use it all until it has gone,if it was ok to use it years ago in my book its ok to use it now,i believe its just the stupid european union rules in different countries that are being forced on us british gardeners,they make millions of pounds but wont pay for the patent of a product because the E.U have said they need to take 1 or 2 ingredients out which makes the product ineffective,.,.,.,.,. i will continue to use them.
I hope if you give away fruit or veg to friends, family, neighbours you tell them theyve been treated with banned (illegal) chemicals so they can make up their own minds if they want to eat them
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Kea, that is such a sad story; I am so sorry for the family and the poor boy, of course :'(
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i also had a good amount of these products when i cleared my allotment shed out,i have continued to use them to good effect,with no problems,i had 4 tubs of the old type bromofoss for carrott fly,i have not had carrott fly since i started using it again and the carrotts were the best ive ever had this year,i will continue to use it all until it has gone,if it was ok to use it years ago in my book its ok to use it now,i believe its just the stupid european union rules in different countries that are being forced on us british gardeners,they make millions of pounds but wont pay for the patent of a product because the E.U have said they need to take 1 or 2 ingredients out which makes the product ineffective,.,.,.,.,. i will continue to use them.
I hope if you give away fruit or veg to friends, family, neighbours you tell them theyve been treated with banned (illegal) chemicals so they can make up their own minds if they want to eat them
Daveylamp says "if it was ok to use it years ago in my book its ok to use it now".
A true statement - except it never was OK - the manufacturers said it was and they have since been proved wrong.
It's not about feeling bad the next day or next week.
Instant effect with no long term damage was what you got with simple old poisons like nicotine - which was banned in favour of unpredictable new products.
If you follow the instructions on your old stuff carefully you will probably never know if it is damaging your neurological or reproductive health or whatever - but it has been proved to be a real risk.
This stuff isn't safe to use on food because it never was safe to use on food - the question of illegal or not is irrelevant.
Every single new insecticide, fungicide and herbicide that has been introduced (since manufacturers started producing complex and unpredictable compounds like DDT) has been proved to have long term ill effects.
Few have lasted more than a decade or two. All the current ones are about to be banned or are suspect.
For example Dithane is still about but the evidence has gradually built up and it is about to be banned.
This is not mad elfansafety - it is the good side of the coin - the one that works - the one that made our society prepared to put up with far too much of the mad stuff because it's impossible to get the balance right - you can only have too much or too little vigilance.
It simply isn't scientific to say you can prove anything this complex is safe - time is the only test - it turns out that decades are needed and we are the guinea pigs - the best ones and the cheapest - hell, for a few thousand spent on advertising they can persuade us to pay for the privilege of testing this stuff on ourselves and our children.
Every single test to date has failed.
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^^ Dithane isn't about to be banned on safety grounds. If fact there is a lot of data to say it's pretty safe when used according to the label. It's not persistent either, being rapidly broken down in the soil and metabolised in cells - unlike copper based fungicides.
A lot of things changed after Thalidomide (and your reference to DDT is out of date) and combined with our litigious culture the industry has become very cautious. But Bayer withdrew Dithane from the amateur market simply because it was expensive to renew the licence and the product didn't make enough money to justify it.
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It was 20 years ago. My cousin was over visiting me with his wife two years ago and they didn't mention their son at all...that was the first time I had met him as I'm a lot younger and they lived in Canada for a long time.
I had to mouth pipette paraquat in a plant physiology practical.....very nerve-wracking...again 20 years ago but soon after my cousin's son died.
I had a close shave with thalidomide...my Mother suffered severe morning sickness while pregnant with me and the Dr gave her thalidomide but she decided not to take it, but I went through school with people who were affected. I suspect as i lived on a farm i will have other chemicals stored e.g. DDT.
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^^ Dithane isn't ... persistent either, being rapidly broken down in the soil and metabolised in cells - unlike copper based fungicides.
This is starting to sound like quoting from the bible - you can find a contradiction to just about anything if you want to...
Dithane is being withdrawn and if you look on the web for a range of views on toxicity you find it is regarded as suspect by just about everyone except the people who make it. The main concerns are its metabolites...
On the other hand the most common use of copper sulphate (active constituent of bordeaux mix) is in animal feed supplements. Copper is required by all mammals and is the third most abundant trace mineral in the human body...
I can't imagine this being consistent with the idea it isn't metabolised.
It is extremely bitter at concentrations thousands of times less than toxicity, so is almost impossible to ingest accidentally. Its ability to permeate skin is almost nonexistent - though it is as acidic as stomach acid so can cause irritation if you don't wash it off (it is neutralised in properly made bordeaux).
Any dried residue polishes off tomatoes quite easily, whereas Dithane gives you tomatoes with a lingering hint of rotten cabbages - and it's almost impossible to remove without skinning the fruit.
More importantly, copper is used against blight in simple chemical compounds - paradoxically called 'inorganic compounds' to distinguish them from 'organic compounds' like dithane.
Organic compounds are intimately involved in life and if you introduce a new and unexpected one (many can pass through skin) it can work like a 'fifth column' inside the body.
It is extremely unlikely that a substance as simple and well-understood as copper can surprise us when it has been used against blight since just after the Potato Famine (1844).
It's your choice, your health, your funeral.
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I can't imagine this being consistent with the idea it isn't metabolised.
Eh? what do you think it is metabolised to? It's a heavy metal, a chemical element so unless you have got some nuclear process going on, it stays as copper. Dithane as you say is an organic compound which is readily metabolised into smaller molecules which already exist in nature.
Can you actually cite any data so support the view that dithane is unsafe when used according to the label?
Because dithane is a relatively new substance, it has been tested acording to regulatory standards and there is A LOT of data. Copper fungicides, as you point out, have been arround for decades, well before the advent of safety testing. And they are easily obtained which means it's very difficult to regulate their use. But I bet if they were introduced today, no way would they be considered acceptable. Like paracetamol, or even tobacco and alcohol, they really shouldn't have a place any more on safety grounds but they do because they are already in widespread use. But that doesn't mean they are safe.
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Sounds as though you had a narrow escape. I remember thalidomide kids at school with my younger siblings. I once got a mouthful of caustic soda in a chemistry lesson. It didn't do any harm, but I'll never forget the taste. Paraquat sounds a bit much even for those days.
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It is extremely unlikely that a substance as simple and well-understood as copper can surprise us when it has been used against blight since just after the Potato Famine (1844).
Copper in the blood exist in two forms: bound to ceruloplasmin (85–95%) and the rest "free" loosely bound to albumin and small molecules. Free copper causes toxicity as it generates reactive oxygen species such as superoxide, hydrogen peroxide, the hydroxyl radical. These damage proteins, lipids and DNA.
With an LD50 of 30 mg/kg in rats, "gram quantities" of copper sulfate are potentially lethal in humans. The suggested safe level of copper in drinking water for humans varies depending on the source, but tends to be pegged at 2.0 mg/l
Elevated free copper levels exist in Alzheimer’s disease. Copper and Zinc are known to bind to amyloid beta proteins in Alzheimer's disease. This bound form is thought to mediate the production of reactive oxygen species in the brain.
No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.
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No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.
You didnt copy this bit from Wiki along with the other stuff because its not true. Eg, Wiki says about copper
Copper essentiality
For a detailed discussion about copper homeostasis, absorption, distribution, and excretion, see: [2]
Copper is an essential trace element that is vital to the health of all living things (humans, plants, animals, and microorganisms). The human body normally contains copper at a level of about 1.4 to 2.1 mg for each kg of body weight.[42] Copper is distributed widely in the body and occurs in liver, muscle and bone. Copper is transported in the bloodstream on a plasma protein called ceruloplasmin. When copper is first absorbed in the gut it is transported to the liver bound to albumin. Copper metabolism and excretion is controlled delivery of copper to the liver by ceruloplasmin, where it is excreted in bile.
Then theres iron, zinc, manganese and a bunch of other metals that youd die without.
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No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.
You didnt copy this bit from Wiki along with the other stuff because its not true. Eg, Wiki says about copper
Copper essentiality
For a detailed discussion about copper homeostasis, absorption, distribution, and excretion, see: [2]
Copper is an essential trace element that is vital to the health of all living things (humans, plants, animals, and microorganisms). The human body normally contains copper at a level of about 1.4 to 2.1 mg for each kg of body weight.[42] Copper is distributed widely in the body and occurs in liver, muscle and bone. Copper is transported in the bloodstream on a plasma protein called ceruloplasmin. When copper is first absorbed in the gut it is transported to the liver bound to albumin. Copper metabolism and excretion is controlled delivery of copper to the liver by ceruloplasmin, where it is excreted in bile.
Then theres iron, zinc, manganese and a bunch of other metals that youd die without.
depends what levels you have. The roman empire declined partially through lead poisoning.
Its the same for any chemical, or substance, its depends on the level . Have you ever heard of 'protein poisoning' , for example, caused by trying to live on an exclusive diet of rabbit meat ?? However, if you feel its safe to chew copper panel pins, carry on, dont let me stop you, im all for free will.
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I think its madness to continue using chemicals that have been banned on safety grounds. Recently I was appalled to see Gardening Which magazine pretty much advising people to stock up on sprays that were due to be banned, with photos showing they were more effective than the new products.
An ex colleague of mine years ago nearly died from using the old Roseclear spray, he got it on his skin and it stopped his heart. Not sure what was in it, possibly some kind of organophosphate.
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depends what levels you have. The roman empire declined partially through lead poisoning.
Its the same for any chemical, or substance, its depends on the level . Have you ever heard of 'protein poisoning' , for example, caused by trying to live on an exclusive diet of rabbit meat ?? However, if you feel its safe to chew copper panel pins, carry on, dont let me stop you, im all for free will.
You didnt say it depends on what level you have. You said
No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.
Thats wrong and thats what I replied to.
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You didnt say it depends on what level you have. You said
No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.
Thats wrong and thats what I replied to.
ah you misconsrue the sentence , to rephrase it
'if the criteria is that all any level of the metal in your body from 0% to 100% is safe, then that statement is wrong'
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You didnt say it depends on what level you have. You said
No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.
Thats wrong and thats what I replied to.
ah you misconsrue the sentence , to rephrase it
'if the criteria is that all any level of the metal in your body from 0% to 100% is safe, then that statement is wrong'
There wasnt anything to misconstrue:
NO_METAL_IS_'SAFE'_IN_YOUR_BODY_
AT_'ANY'_LEVEL.
Thats pretty clear and unequivocal.
What isnt clear is your '*clarification*
'if the criteria is that all any level of the metal in your body from 0% to 100% is safe, then that statement is wrong'
Havent a clue what that means.
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I won't be using copper fungicides because they can build up in the soil and earthworms don't like them - have a gander at some of these:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GPEA_enGB299GB300&q=copper+fungicide+residues
I'm trying to build up my earthworm population not kill it off. I have seen people apply copper fungicides with a watering can "coz it's safe, innit?".
As for stocking up with dithane, it is still legal to use it, it is just that Bayer can't make any money selling it for amateur use.
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You didnt say it depends on what level you have. You said
No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.
Thats wrong and thats what I replied to.
Right.
Did you come her to talk about growing stuff or just troll or start a flame war?
chill out, its not that sort of board. If you want an argument, try here instead
www.4chan.org
ah you misconsrue the sentence , to rephrase it
'if the criteria is that all any level of the metal in your body from 0% to 100% is safe, then that statement is wrong'
There wasnt anything to misconstrue:
NO_METAL_IS_'SAFE'_IN_YOUR_BODY_
AT_'ANY'_LEVEL.
Thats pretty clear and unequivocal.
What isnt clear is your '*clarification*
'if the criteria is that all any level of the metal in your body from 0% to 100% is safe, then that statement is wrong'
Havent a clue what that means.