Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: Parsniptoast on September 19, 2010, 20:02:04
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Hi
I've had my plot for a while now but for the last five years I've not been able to obtain a regular supply of farmyard manure. (Something to do with red diesel and delivery problems?)
Anyway, I miss it. The problem is that soil, a predominantly clay based heavy soil, really is looking a bit pale and lacklustre now.
Is there anything I can use in place of farmyard manure that will condition the soil? Does green manure do the same thing or should I keep focusing on using my own supply of garden compost and not worry about it?
I've not been working my plot this year for various reasons and am about to dig it over for the spring so any suggestions about what I can do would be welcomed.
Thanks :)
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hi where abouts are you
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Hi Parsniptoast...there is not really a single substitute that you could place one for other..but you can get good results by combination of different things.
I haven't used horse/farmyard manure anymore for several years..mainly cause I got fed up with a amount of weedseed that comes with it.. ::)
With clay you need carbon material that will open it up..straw is good.. you can dig this in..just like manure..and then provide rest of the 'goodness' by homemade compost, greenmanures, pelleted manures...
but you get this 'carbon' from other sourses too...eg..sweetcorn stems chopped up into ground (after getting the cobs off)..cardboard..
I also use any veg waste that is a bit slower to 'rot' in compost bin..lot of things like veg peelings, cabbage leaves etc..can go straight into ground..you can do trench at the time..covering it with soil. During growing season it maybe bit more difficult due lack of room..but do it in winter and it will be 'gone' by spring ;)
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hi where abouts are you
I'm in North Oxfordshire :)
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I haven't used horse/farmyard manure anymore for several years..mainly cause I got fed up with a amount of weedseed that comes with it.. ::)
With clay you need carbon material that will open it up..straw is good.. you can dig this in..just like manure..and then provide rest of the 'goodness' by homemade compost, greenmanures, pelleted manures...
but you get this 'carbon' from other sourses too...eg..sweetcorn stems chopped up into ground (after getting the cobs off)..cardboard..
I also use any veg waste that is a bit slower to 'rot' in compost bin..lot of things like veg peelings, cabbage leaves etc..can go straight into ground..you can do trench at the time..covering it with soil. During growing season it maybe bit more difficult due lack of room..but do it in winter and it will be 'gone' by spring ;)
This is so helpful! Thanks very much and I know *exactly* what you mean about the weed seed! That and large amounts of farmers' twine...
I put the detritus from the compost bin into the runner bean trench every year along with newspaper but I have lots of cardboard waiting to go to the tip so I can obviously make better use of that!
I think I'll aim to just dig everything straight into the ground this autumn - clear out the compost bin and start from scratch.
I can't wait to get back out there and digging it over. I suspect that having had a year, off of cultivation may have done my plot the world of good anyway..
Thanks again :) I'm new to the site but hope to soon be a regular :)
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we're using lots of spent mushroom compost this year, only not on the potato bed, they don't like it, apparently, tried cabbages in it this year and it was ace ;D
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we're using lots of spent mushroom compost this year, only not on the potato bed, they don't like it, apparently, tried cabbages in it this year and it was ace ;D
How do you get hold of this sort of stuff? Do you pay for it and is it delivered to you? I live in the middle of a rural, farming belt and yet can't get hold of manure for love nor even money and mushroom compost! Well.. I can but dream :)
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I use some stuff from city farms which is mainly the straw complete with poo and wee from small animal cages...no dreaded grass seed!
I would find it very hard to make enough of my own compost to feed my entire plot..
Are there no stables around you.. Nothing beats a well rotted pile of stable manure..and most stables are happy to give it away...
I have also used bags of leaves that the council handily puts outside my house in Autumn but more for soil conditioning than nutrient value...
Some local councils do a green waste composting scheme or you can buy green waste compost..
http://www.turfandstuff.com/product.php?xProd=265&xSec=42&gclid=CImAjpbklaQCFcEB4wodO1BeHg
(http://www.turfandstuff.com/product.php?xProd=265&xSec=42&gclid=CImAjpbklaQCFcEB4wodO1BeHg) sell both mushroom and green compost..
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I have found most of the stables in my area won't deliver- you have to take your own spade and bags and bag it up yourself- which does nothing for the aroma of your car!
You could try putting a "wanted" ad on your local freecycle site, an check on ebay.
I also get free spent hops from my local brewery, which are good for mulching and soil conditioning.
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I get mine from a local stables/livery/riding school. By arrangement they now leave the stuff they take from the fields by the side of the field adn I load it out into my trailer and van and can pull a ton away in less than half an hour if I'm in a hurry.... don't really bother (yet) with teh stuff from the main heap down at the stable block, but might well do if I find folks on my new site that want it.
There must be riding schoiols up your way but onoe caveat regarding stable manure is aminopyralid. It's a broad-leaf weedkiller used on hay and pasturage that isn't supposed to get off farms but seems ot with monotonous regularity. Test each batch from a stable with some broad-bean seedlings with a control of "normal" compost. If it's contaminated then the growth will be very distorted....
chrisc
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Try your local council/ church for leaves/green waste
council/tree surgeons for woodchip
The local Police horses used to be based near our site and they delivered all the muck to the site it could be worth checking out with the local Police
Manics do you buy Mushroom compost in bulk the closest I have found is near Southport do you know of any closer
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Parsniptoast, we buy our bags (75ltr+) from a farm near burscough, flytrapman, I guess it's the same place, 6 bags for 12.00,
never asked about getting it delivered, we go for a run and pick some up :)
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Parsniptoast, we buy our bags (75ltr+) from a farm near burscough, flytrapman, I guess it's the same place, 6 bags for 12.00,
never asked about getting it delivered, we go for a run and pick some up :)
That's the thing I struggle a bit with really, it's just getting a quantity suitable for the allotment. At 20 x 100ft it's not a huge plot but the amount of bags I'd be able to collect in one go would be like spitting in the ocean :)
Be perfect for the garden though which has given me an idea... :D
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You could always grow some wheat..next summer cut off all the ripe seed heads then chop and dig all the straw in..good source of carbon.. ;) then you can save some of the seed for next bit of land and give left overs for birds ;) ;D..unless you happen to have any chickens..
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You could always grow some wheat..next summer cut off all the ripe seed heads then chop and dig all the straw in..good source of carbon.. ;)
this may (will) cause Nitrogen depletion for 1st, maybe 2nd year. (Carbon / Nitrogen ratio about 100 - 1 in straw, needs to be about 7-3 for plant use)
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I've just barrowed half a ton of pigeon poo for next year,now that stuff stinks :-X
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My dad has used 6X for many years. He swears by it:
http://www.6-x.co.uk/index.htm
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It is good stuff but isn't it just a fertilizer not soil conditioner?
It's also a lot cheaper from the GC. I think we paid under £7 for a bag.
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this may (will) cause Nitrogen depletion for 1st, maybe 2nd year. (Carbon / Nitrogen ratio about 100 - 1 in straw, needs to be about 7-3 for plant use)Yes..It is possible....but improving the clay with rough stuff is necessary too..and application of ..say chicken pellets would balance the situation..original post was about conditioning/improving clay...
For me the conditioning the ground is far more important..in the long run particularly..than fertilizing...and nitrogen is easy to remedy..
I'm sorry to start my 'ranting' on this issue..but...there is still far more 'fertilizer' appilacations going into ground within agriculture as well as in 'hobby' gardening. 'We' are not 'growing' the good soil structure enough that is used up on growing and weather errosion...sorry ::)...
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...In Finland where my family used to have a allotment we were growing veg in almost pure clay..proper gray stuff all the way to the surface..
First few years we dug bales and bales of straw in...just to get some air gaps in..
and all plant were pre-raised in pots...so that compost was only brown stuff that got in..rest of the growing medium was just clay and 'rotting' straw..some BFB, lime and chiken pellet were used too..
And we did get decent enough crops..and eventually the soil became workable..and the colour started to brown up...
I visited the site couple of years ago..and people are still using the straw..but only every other year...like doing a crop rotation but with straw..and some are growing the stuff in situ..and the soil looks and feels lovely...
..now add some green manure to that rotation..and I'm in my 'nerdy' heaven.. ;D
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I'd 2nd the leaf mould!! Really has helped with the texture of the soil.
Also being on clay I've been adding what I can get my mits on but would definietly recommend trenching veg waste as well.
Basically my motto had been chuck anything and everything at it ::) ;D
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;D ;D..that's about it..more the merrier..with bits and pieces in all stages of 'decay'.. ;D
although..I would put crass clippings in with something rougher..not on it's own..or use them as mulch on surface..
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;D ;D..that's about it..more the merrier..with bits and pieces in all stages of 'decay'.. ;D
although..I would put crass clippings in with something rougher..not on it's own..or use them as mulch on surface..
Yeah my clippings are definitely crass ;) :D :D :D
And yes I'll fess up to being a mulcher ;D - makes a huge difference
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..whoopsie.. ;D
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i just acquired half a tonne of Superphosphate and a quarter of a tonne of sodium nitrate............
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We have been told not to get deliveries of manure this year because of amino..amyn..oh whatever it is, so I have got a bale of straw for £2 and am making paths with it. Once it has been trampled a bit and rotted I will put it on the soil and use it for mulches etc. Compost from the bin will go on as well and I hope that will be ok.
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So how do you know that the straw is Aminopropylid free?
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:o Eeek! Hadn't thought of that! An expert will be along shortly...I hope!
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:o Eeek! Hadn't thought of that! An expert will be along shortly...I hope!
If you've got a stables nearby see if they clear their fields of horse-droppings... if they do find oout if you can get them. Field muck from some place that doesn't spray will be fine, but will be a bit weedy in terms of it carries weeds.... it's a better fertiliser (though posibly not such a good soil improver....) I get mine like that and they're only too happy to watch me tow it away.... I leave them compost bgs adn they fill them while walking the fields....Got nearly three tons in dumpybags at the plot ATM waiting to go on (and I'll double that at least for next year).... another bonus of that is the mushrooms.... there's only really one thing you could mistake for a horse mushroom that's actually poinsonous adn there's an easy distinguishing test...
Hope I find some more on Saturday/Sunday....
chrisc
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Regarding the STRAW I am sorry to say that basically it is not very safe as most farmers are using the Aminopyralid herbicide on their Corn and Wheat Fields.. so even if you acquire muck etc from a local stable that does not use it on their grazing areas it can be brought in from the straw / Hay used for bedding and feeding in the stables (that is what has happened to a lot on our site as the local guy unknowingly has been supplying infected manure for the past 10 months or so as his horses are stabled and do not have vast grazing areas worth the cost of the herbicide if indeed he was able to get some ).but to get away from the problem I suggest a Rotation period like stick it in with your brassicas each year as long as you follow with Onions then Tatties then Beans you will be Safe and plenty of rotavating between crops as this breaks it down.. at the moment in my opinion this is the only way to deal with it
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THey're not supposed to spray corn or wheat fields, Hay that's been treated and the manure from animals that eat such hay isn't supposed to leave the farm of origin.... Of course that's if you believe farmers won't use the best broadleaf weedkiller known on just about every blade of grass and grass-family crop they've got.....
chrisc