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Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: plainleaf on August 18, 2010, 06:09:39
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I was looking though a stack dirty flats that i had plant tomato seeds earlier in season.
low an be hold one of the seed i thought had been no germination decide to finally germinate.
So my little experiment will be that this late comer will be planted out in 5 weeks.
I will using my early set out set up on this plant and I will hopefully have the plant survive the winter. my winter get as cold as -11 C/12 F. place your bets now if think the plant will survive the winter.
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Probably will survive if you set your mind to it but if it becomes very leggy it will not do anything worth having in the new year. Perhaps in the house with a light system.
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I've had a tomato root system survive the winter outside, from a plant that had been cut down but not dug up ... unfortunately I only found it when digging over the soil, and it got badly damaged, so I didn't get to see if it fruited for a second year ... temperatures weren't nearly as cold as yours though.
In an unheated greenhouse that I had use of at a previous accomodation I regularly kept plants through 'till the following February, but again, temperatures didn't drop below freezing ... good luck ;)
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Is that the system with a stacked pair of walls of water Plainleaf. I have recently bought 2 dozen of them for the spring. How do you get one to stay on top of the other..if that is what you do,,I am not sure. I think it was you who told me
XX Jeannine
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Jeannine yes i was one who told you about stacked walls of water.
How i stack them will have to be a separate thread since showing you the step by step will take at least a dozen picture. or i with pm you the step by step if you would like.
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That would be great but if don't mind could you put them on a thread on the forum more folks will see it and I think it would be interesting.
I shall look forward to seeing them
XX Jeannine
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Wall of water systems are not available here but I have found reference to using 2ltr plastic bottles filled with water. This sounds like good idea. But I cannot find what you use to cover the top. I have found cozy coats by having a quick google and they are are red, I donlt understand how the plant gets enough light though it.
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Red is the latest craze here, there is red plastic that folks plant through too, , they maintain that the red plastic mulch put under tomatoes and strawberries aids the colour .
There is no covering on the top,of the walls of water the top is open, some folks may put something over it but it is actually open. They are quite high, about 15 or 18 inches..guessing.Mine are not red.
XX Jeannine
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I have found cozy coats by having a quick google and they are are red, I donlt understand how the plant gets enough light though it.
Never seen that before, interesting.
They will let through more light than you think...
They are red so they block green and blue light, but plants do not use the green light for photosynthesis so it does not matter that it is blocked to heat the water.
Don't know about the blue, and UV, someone who knows more will have to fill that bit in.
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they maintain that the red plastic mulch put under tomatoes and strawberries aids the colour .
Perhaps if you wage a red flag the tomatoes will ripen quicker. I have been wearing a red top all morning so I have high hopes of some ripe fruit tomorrow. ;D ;D PRefer foil reflects the light.
I have managed to keep courgettes through -4C with plastic milk bottles full of water so it sounds like a good challenge to surround tomatoes with clear plastic bottles of water. Is this aided by the Latent Heat of Freezing (Fusion).
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Did you really intend to say that.. good luck
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Digeroo there are several places online that sell walls of water in UK
chrispy walls of water are blue not red. Also red plastic does not help tomatoes ripen that much.
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Hi Plainleaf, they do come in red now by several suppliers, not the same name brand but certainly the same thing, I think they are new this last year when all tht "RED" stuff came popular.
Would you explain how you fill yours and get the plant in'' several ways I am curious which one you prefer.
XX Jeannine
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Digeroo there are several places online that sell walls of water in UK
Please could you post a link. My googling skills are slipping again.
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I remember reading a thread on another forum about a year ago about someone making a radiator for their shed, made out of beer cans. They drilled out the bottom of the cans then stuck them together, filled with water, painted them black and placed it outside with a tube running inside the shed to act as the radiator.
Under the grapevines I was thinking of using water filled plastic milk bottles, layed on their side and stacked up then painting black or covering with black plastic to keep the plants warmer in the evenings.
Just never got round to trying it ;D
Neil
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The plastic milk bottles work very well for courgettes. I actually bury the first few inches in the soil and leave them standing up. So it warms the roots and soil as well. Did it also with the early challenge potatoes and they all survived several frosts. I put a bottle between each potato plant and covered with plastic.
I did not bother to paint them black. The first night they were filled with warm water but after that I found they warmed up quite well during the day. In general the coldest nights are on sunny days.
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: Jeannine when planting a tomato plant in a none stacked wall of water.
you wait till reasonable weather day after warming the soil under some such.you plant the tomato plant. cover the plant with 5 gallon bucket open side down. handle facing up.
place the wall of water around bucket. fill the water tubes in manner that allows opposite sides not fall over and fall.
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How do you get the bucket out? or is the wall of water stable once it is full.
Still need uk link please.
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the uk supplier does not seem to be listing currently but ebay sellers seem to ship uk.
as for getting bucket out this video demonstrates how simple it is.
sorry there are no videos online of some filling a wall o water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPCDVDDeqfY
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Thanks PL that's the one I used to use before when I used them
XX Jeannine
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Just a thought ... if my schoolboy physics still holds me in good stead ... but I'm not sure that painting these "wall of water" devices black will be of significant benefit. Agreed that a black surface more readily absorbs heat than a white surface, but it also acts as a more efficient radiator, so any extra heat collected in the hours of daylight will be more quickly lost once it gets dark ... or have I missed something :-\
The same probably holds true for specifically black mulches and/or adding soot to soil to darken it. I'm not saying that a mulch is is not a good thing, just that a black mulch is possibly not more beneficial than any other colour. It'd be interesting, once the nights get colder and if one had the space and the resources, to lay out a black sheet, a green sheet and maybe a clear sheet on the ground next to each other and monitor the soil temperature on an hourly basis under each over a period of days.
One might even suggest that a light-coloured mulch would reflect more light onto the plants ... all interesting stuff ;)
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I did not bother to paint them black. The first night they were filled with warm water but after that I found they warmed up quite well during the day. In general the coldest nights are on sunny days.
No need to paint them black, by the way. I fill them with diluted comfrey liquid fertiliser, any other brown liquid fertiliser will do. I have measured a few degrees of difference from just plain water and they feel warmer. At a later time it is useful to have the liquid to hand.
Why is it that dark bottles give off their heat quicker? I have never heard of this.
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Why is it that dark bottles give off their heat quicker? I have never heard of this.
It's basic physics, the same reason that car radiators are painted black (to lose heat) and solar panels are black (to absorb heat) - you can try it in the kitchen with a couple of different coloured mugs and some hot water - assuming similarly shaped mugs of similar material and equal quantities of water, the contents of the darker mug will cool down quicker than the water in the light coloured one 8)
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If anyone wants any I can ship over for you, they also are on UK e bay by the way XX Jeannine
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I must be doing something wrong. What exactly did you put in the search to get them to come up on UK ebay. The only thing I can find are repair kits from US.
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I'll find then for you XX Jeannine
too may to get alink
Go to UK ebay
Make sure you have worldwide tapped at the side, if you just have UK they won't come up.
Spelled Walls O Water in all categories first.
They cane up red, green, packas of3 and large packs XX Jeannine
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Since the real thing come from US the postage is very high. But I actually quite like the challenge of doing it with a ring of plastic bottles. If I use milk bottles I can put a ring round through the handles to prevent them falling over. Though coke bottles are taller.
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Thay are quite tall, taller than bottles.
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Why is it that dark bottles give off their heat quicker? I have never heard of this.
It's basic physics, the same reason that car radiators are painted black (to lose heat) and solar panels are black (to absorb heat) - you can try it in the kitchen with a couple of different coloured mugs and some hot water - assuming similarly shaped mugs of similar material and equal quantities of water, the contents of the darker mug will cool down quicker than the water in the light coloured one 8)
Thank you. Must have been ill, during that particular physics lesson. So, dark bottles are good because they absorb more heat, but we need a cover (or use inside greenhouse) to keep given off heat in better. Live and learn :)
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dark bottles are good because they absorb more heat, but we need a cover
... to keep in heat overnight, but removed during the day to "re-charge" the heat.
... good thinking 8) sounds like a sales opportunity ... Dragon's Den anyone?
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So does that mean that you have to tend to them everyday to move the protection. And surely some days will not be warm enough during the daytime.
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So does that mean that you have to tend to them everyday to move the protection. And surely some days will not be warm enough during the daytime
Let's not get too bogged down in the detail here ;)
The basic concept is good, the water device absorbs heat during the day and then releases it again at night ... it also acts as a windshield and/or cloche so can only be a "good thing" ... it's just that if one was to fit a cover of some sort each evening and remove it again the following day, it'd probably be even better 8)
If the water device is dark coloured, so it absorbs more heat during the day, it will have more heat to release overnight, but is likely to do so quicker, as it is a more efficient radiator, being dark, so the nett result will likely be very similar to an uncoloured device. One also needs to consider the plant's need for light. Obviously a dark-coloured device will leave the plant more shaded, so more likely to grow "leggy".
I think this is another occaision where most simple is best ... a ring of clear plastic containers filled with clear water is likely to give the best compromise, a clear lid for the whole device is probably worth considering, an overnight insulating cover would be a bonus for those with the facility for removing it on a daily basis.
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I think this is another occaision where most simple is best ... a ring of clear plastic containers filled with clear water is likely to give the best compromise, a clear lid for the whole device is probably worth considering, an overnight insulating cover would be a bonus for those with the facility for removing it on a daily basis
Adding anti-freeze to the water too?
Tricia
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Been reading a few things online..have found some folks are sayingthat the red ones are slowing growth rather than speeding it up.
I used these for my squash plants originally, I planted on plastic much that had been down a week or two then the water walls, I sometimes put a small tomato cage round the plant then the water wall as I was convinced they wouldn't fall over but they never did.
I contacted Veseys by e mail but they will not ship to the UK. I will check mine for weight, they come in packets of three.
XX Jeannine
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A bit of info for making your own http://www.ediblecommunities.com/frontrange/component/option,com_wordpress/Itemid,300107/p,1300/ (http://www.ediblecommunities.com/frontrange/component/option,com_wordpress/Itemid,300107/p,1300/)
If I use milk bottles I can put a ring round through the handles to prevent them falling over. Though coke bottles are taller.
Milk bottles on their side would be better. Lay one course down, then a piece of wood or canes could be put through the handles and driven into the ground, then slot the rest of the bottles over until you reach the hight you need, and tied together when you get to the top.
Neil
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Brilliant. I shall start collecting the milk bottles right now. I shall log the 1st Feb into my mopho to bleep me. It is a very auspicious sowing day being two days before the new moon and two days after the Garden Organic Potato day.
Planting out day will be the 1st April which is perfect because it is a very foolish scheme.
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Adding anti-freeze to the water too?
Not sure about this ... or bleach to prevent the algae ... both points worthy of consideration, but I have reservations about potential contamination issues in the event of a rupture of the container, or simply forgetting about what's in the water and tipping it onto the ground/crop when taking the device out of use :-\
A point to remember, if using such a device in an area where the water is likely to freeze, is that water expands when it turns into ice, so don't screw the lid on tightly, if at all, else the plastic is likely to split.
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I am also not sure about the antifreeze it is the latent heat of fusion that comes into play and rather surprisingly releases heat when the water freezes. Also water has a maximum density at 4C so the water at the bottom stays warmer for longer hence the need for taller containers rather than stacks of smaller ones. It is the particular properties of water that are required. There is no need to prevent the freezing there is no particular benefit from stopping it, it is beneficial.
It is the higher density of water at 4c which ensures that ice rises to the top and the fish etc have somewhere to live underneath at a barmy 4C.
Plastic milk bottles expand slightly, coke bottles are designed for high pressure, cheaper alternatives do split.
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i find the debate about how they work a bit funny. I have use walls o water down to min temperature of 15 f on 3 nights and 5 nights at 17 f. during several tough winters.
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That is quite impressive. I have got so used to the weather forecasts I had to have a conversion we are talking about -8 to -9 C. I had thought we were taling about the odd degree or two of frost. I presume by this time the whole thing is totally frozen stiff so must rely more on the insulation properties.
If I put out tomatoes in April I would not expect such low temperature here. We had them in February last year but that was something of an exception.
For courgettes I also have a couple of large flint pebbles which take in heat. I also bang in some metal bars which I hope take the extra daytime heat down to the roots.
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Digeroo that year i put tomato plants in on feb 16.
i was testing to see if the graham method worked.
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I personally will still be hibernating in the middle of February.
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I've discovered a healthy little tomato plant growing in my strawberry bed. If I surrounded it with the bottles full of water do you think I might have any success? Or should I dig it up, pot it and try to grow indoors?
Sinbad
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I've discovered a healthy little tomato plant growing in my strawberry bed.
I'd be inclined to leave it where it is for the time being, unless space or whatever makes that impractical, it'll develop better if left undisturbed. Lift it in the late autumn when it's unlikely to want to grow any more. You'll also have a better idea of how big a pot you'll want for it. Tomato plants can be reasonably hardy ... they'll keep their foliage through the winter if they don't die, so keep it in a well lit, if not necessarily heated place over winter (don't let it freeze though) and you'll have a head start in the spring ;D
If we get a long autumn, you may even get a small bonus crop of (probably green) tomatoes this year, depending on variety. I "found" some self-sown tomatoes in July last year and popped them into a small patch of unused ground, just to see if they'd go, and a made a good batch of green tomato chutney in November. I didn't try to overwinter the plants, they were starting to show signs of blight.
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Plainleaf, you have started a good discussion here, well done,it does seem funny to hear our UK family discussing this is, but it isa good funny as I am sure you will agree.
It is a new concept in the UK,as you can see they are not even available there, so it does take a bit of believing. I have used them in Canada but not in the UK.It is not just the cool temp in the UK so early in the year it is other facters that you don[t have in your area,a totally different climate and I think it's super that your idea has prompted so much interest. Please will you post your pictures. I would personally like to know which tomatoes you start with this early. Another question, have you ever thought to actually measure the temperature inside the where the plant is to compare to outside.
Just to toss in another idea, I once had them in situ when it was raining very hard for a long time and I found the water collected inside the cloche, calling it a cloche so you don't think I mean in the water tube. The water that fell outside darined away OK but indide it stood and I was nervous that the palnt drowned as the water level got higher.I tilted the cloch so the water ran out and then popped brollies over them,it worked a treat. It was only for a few days.
Do I take It from all your discussions that some of you are going to try this..that would be great,,is there an idea in mind as to what time
Plainleaf, when in Februatry do you do it I will try to join you, but suspect that the UK folk may have to wait a while. I will do another one when they start.
XX Jeannine
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jeannie i was laughing not at use of wall o waters I was laughing at confusion about physics of how they work.
Jeannie if they wish to try walls o water i suggest you or I buy them in bulk order send them to the uk an have someone distribute them there thus saving on postage.
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Jeannie if they wish to try walls o water i suggest you or I buy them in bulk order send them to the uk an have someone distribute them there thus saving on postage.
VAT, or more precisly the admin charge for the VAT will cause problems with that.
Unless you are import loads, then keep the value of each package below £18, then VAT is not a problem, that is unless they have scraped this allowance, they were thinking of doing that.
OK, just looked up the details, if you send an item valued over £18 the receiver will have to pay VAT @ 17.5% + £8 admin fee (if is sent via normal post).
VAT goes up to 20% in Jan.
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well the arrangement could be sent under the gift exclusion.
but if someone really wanted to and had time and plastic sealer they could make there own wall o waters.
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well the arrangement could be sent under the gift exclusion.
You are going to send some as gifts.... That's very generous of you.
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more like trading gifts
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I know what you mean PL. I send stuff all the time to the UK marking them as gifts, customs leave them alone then.
Chrispy I only once paid any duty form a parcel coming from the US and the value was $800 so I expected it, but have many times had them with a value of $100 and more with no problems. I know that they have the right to add it on but it never happened to me. I bought a canner with extras that came to $210 and I paid no duty. It canot be relied on but no-one I know really worries about it. I have sent about 20 25 parcels over to the UK in the last 16 months and no ne has paid any duty yet. I wouldn't worry about it frankly.
I think I bought 6 packs of 3 when I got my new ones a few weeks ago, I blew it because I found out later I could have bought them in bulk but the postage for a case may be too high to then send on again. in smaller amounts, and I don't want to go into the WallO Water business for sure. I can only get small packets locally. I just found out.
I will work out for you all what it costs weight and postage wise to send a pack of three if anyone wants them, I feel sure it would be cheaper than e bay as I don't need a penny more than my cost. I will let you know when I work it out.
Let me know if anyone wants a pack.
XX Jeannine
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I don't want to go into the WallO Water business for sure
Now there is a thought. I cannot find who actually manufactures this product. Do you have any idea plaintleaf.
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mount cordahl produce company make it.
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there was British patent on similar water filled device but i can seem to find it online. the patent not the device.
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I have been in touch with the maunufactueres of WOW and am awaiting their final reply re shipping to the Uk etc,and John is going to the PO tomorrow with a 3 pack to get a postal quote , a pack of three is not heavy and folds over to fit a bubble envelope, or shapes into a poster roll.Iwill do my best.
XX Jeannine
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now back to the experiment
the set up which i will post picture of at later time will consist of:
It will have ooze watering hose .
2 5ft 1in dia. PVC posts per plant
12 in diameter coated metal fence ring 4 ft high per plant
3 walls o water stacked per plant (special technique) that has to be seen in pictures.
10 10 ft 1/2in dia. PVC pipe hoops
10ft x10ft x3mil clear plastic drop cloth.
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Wow, is all that for 1 plant.
Still haven't got any info from the company yet but here are the details if anyone wants to contact them direct.
Wall O'Water Inc,
520,North Mantana,
Dillon,
Montana
59725
Tel. (866)643-5036
Fax.(866)804-7298
e mail. info@wall-o-water.com
website..http://www.wall-o-water.com
I will let you all knw if and when I get any info.
Sorry John I did not make it to the PO today.
XX Jeannine
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Jeannine three plants will housed in this setup.
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Ok,3 plants.
I see you are up and not asleep like all of the UK,I think you are about 4 hors different from me to the UK.
Are you putting the pictures on now..I will keep checking back.
XX Jeannine
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the picture will be up in due time.
also you have seen what looks like partly already Jeannine
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Many thanks both for the contact details. There is also one called Kasy Coats have you eny experience of that.
I feel a business coming on.
I have also had a eureka moment and managed to create system of plastic bottles so far two high but may get taller.
Very interested in your three high waterowater contraption. Looking forward to the piccies. I am hoping to give a mid march or early april planting date a go but will pass on the total winter situation. There is no particular point I have a centrally heated, double glazed house.
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I've used three wall o waters since 2008. In 2008 my notes say the night temps were in the 40 F range. I planted outside a sickly looking Purple Pruden tom on 4-12-08 and put a red wall o water around it but by 4-18 it was taller and bushier than the other Purple Priudens. This is hardly a scientific study though. I still only own three wall o waters and won't spend the money for more.
On super cold nights I'd cover them with plastic or fleece.
What the university study on red plastic showed was the red light waves boost a plant hormone. I've used red plastic mulch under most of the tom plant beds and do seem to get a good harvest though haven't kept good enough measurements to prove that.
Some problems in making a scientific study are: I plant many different varieties, germinating them on different schedules, transplanting out on different days, planting them in different light and moisture situations, feeding them different days and not weighing all the produce, and some get attacked by tomato horn worms and blight.
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I have had an e mail from the manufacturers this morning, they are happy to send me a case wholesale and as I asked if there was anyone in the UK selling them and they said no, they offered me the opportunity of doing it from here or would like to hear from someone over there who will do it..so someone go for it..sell them on UK e bay.
If anyone is seriously interested I can give you the contact name at the company.
I am going to buy a case anyway I think as I could use many more than I have and don't mind posting a few out unofficially. I will work out a price,meantime check Veseys who have the connection in Eastern Canada, there is no-one in the west.
XX Jeannine
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I am fascinated with the wall o water idea, especially as we have our frosts as late as the end of May (Lost quite a bit to that last deep frost we had at the end of May this year) it seems quite an interesting idea.
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So plainleaf you have got us interested in your walls of water. How are the pictures coming along.
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the picture are coming a long
fine