Allotments 4 All
General => News => Topic started by: Squash64 on August 08, 2010, 20:12:34
-
I am facing what could be a serious situation at our allotments. Birmingham City Council's allotment rules ban hoses and sprinklers except where required to fill water containers.
BCC have given us a form which we are supposed to fill in if we catch a tenant using a hose for watering. A copy of it is then given to the tenant and one sent to the Allotment dept.
There is a man quite near my plot who uses the hose to fill his water butts and then waters his crops with the hose while walking to the next butt. He then goes up to his large polytunnel at the top of his plot and because he thinks nobody can see him, he waters inside it with the hose.
Another committee member and I saw him doing this today, and he saw that we had seen him.
So what do we do? If we give him the BCC letter and he is seen doing it once more and reported, the Council say he will be given Notice of Re-Entry and will lose his plots.
The other committee member and I are concerned that if we give him the first letter and then see him watering again (which we will as we have already told him at least 5 times not to do it) will the Council stand by their threat to evict him? Can BCC legally do this?
If we do nothing, what's the point of having rules? But at the same time I feel the Council has placed us in an awkward situation. I don't like the idea of 'informing' on people. But neither do I like the fact that this man is watering his things easily while I am struggling with watering cans!
I will try to attach a copy of the Council letter, but it might not work
[attachment=1]
-
Several questions come to mind. Is he a tenant you have a reasonable relation with or definitely not? When you've told him before, what has been his reaction? Does he know about the forms you hold, and what they say? Does he realise he may have his tenancy withheld? And I'm glad another committee member saw his actions with you. That helps you a little. Can the committee jointly approach him, if he is on site regularly, and try and get his co-operation by explaining the seriousness of what he is doing, and then making it very clear that however reluctant you all may be, you will have to inform the council if he continues. I don't envy you the situation at all. But presumably he signed some sort of undertaking to abide by rules when he was given an allotment?
Let us know how things turn out.
-
I think you should put up a notice reminding people of the rules and explaining the need.
If he still flouts the rules the feeling of guilt should be with him not you. I think you will need a camera, otherwise he might try and denigh that it happened. He is being rather cunning because it will be difficult to take a picture from outside of polytunnel.
-
Betty, I see you have told this guy about the rules but might it be a good idea to send him a letter saying it has put you/ committee in an awkward situation over him breaking BCC rules and that if it happens again he will be issued with the official BCC letter. You can say you all find this upsetting but you/ committee don't think it fair to all the other plot holders that abide by the rules, then it would be his choice what was going to happen to him.
I'm sure lots of us would like to use hoses on our plots but we abide by the rules so why does one plot holder think they don't apply to them I find these people really selfish as it does cause bad feelings especially towards the people that have to uphold the rules.
Good luck
-
Several questions come to mind. Is he a tenant you have a reasonable relation with or definitely not? When you've told him before, what has been his reaction? Does he know about the forms you hold, and what they say? Does he realise he may have his tenancy withheld? And I'm glad another committee member saw his actions with you. That helps you a little. Can the committee jointly approach him, if he is on site regularly, and try and get his co-operation by explaining the seriousness of what he is doing, and then making it very clear that however reluctant you all may be, you will have to inform the council if he continues. I don't envy you the situation at all. But presumably he signed some sort of undertaking to abide by rules when he was given an allotment?
Let us know how things turn out.
Thanks for your reply Peanuts.
He's a funny bloke. When we've told him in the past he makes excuses and (sort of) agrees he won't do it again but it is almost impossible to reason with him. He just can't seem to realise that the rule applies to everyone and he thinks that if he can get away with doing it, he will carry on.
He is in late 70's but very active and has had two plots next to each other for years.
It might be a good idea to actually show him the form, I think we will try that today if he is there.
-
I think you should put up a notice reminding people of the rules and explaining the need.
If he still flouts the rules the feeling of guilt should be with him not you. I think you will need a camera, otherwise he might try and denigh that it happened. He is being rather cunning because it will be difficult to take a picture from outside of polytunnel.
Thanks for your reply Digeroo.
When the Council told us about the form we were supposed to give people, we made laminated notices and put them up at every standpipe on the site, warning them about what would happen if they used hoses for watering. I suppose people have just become complacent and think that it doesn't apply to them. Maybe I need to change the notices to something less polite!
-
Betty, I see you have told this guy about the rules but might it be a good idea to send him a letter saying it has put you/ committee in an awkward situation over him breaking BCC rules and that if it happens again he will be issued with the official BCC letter. You can say you all find this upsetting but you/ committee don't think it fair to all the other plot holders that abide by the rules, then it would be his choice what was going to happen to him.
I'm sure lots of us would like to use hoses on our plots but we abide by the rules so why does one plot holder think they don't apply to them I find these people really selfish as it does cause bad feelings especially towards the people that have to uphold the rules.
Good luck
Thanks for your reply Sinbad.
Your idea of giving him a letter first is probably the thing we will do. I am reluctant to issue the formal BCC form because once it's given, there is no going back. I'll write a letter and give it him and also show him the form so that he can see that it is serious.
I'll write the letter now while the dogs are asleep and the house is quiet ;)
-
We had that problem with some old fellers on our site but they stopped once the A. secretary told them himself.
Sometimes new folks will think its ok but as soon as they are told then they stop
Is the chap of sound mind Betty. If so then show him the letter from the council and tell him that if you see him using a hose on the garden or in the polytunnel then you will have no choice but to advise the council. If you dont do it then some other disgruntled person might report it to the council.
No joke when you are luggin watering cans and someone else is hosing
-
I don't think you have much choice really and I would tell him that, if you don't follow through as you have been instructed to do it could be seen as turning a blind eye which will be seen as favouritism, this could cause trouble for you if you don't follow through.
You could contact the council and request advice,suggest you suspect some one may be still doing it but you are dealing with that, ask what the council will do if your request for advice turns into an actual report , they may simply send him a warning letter which might do the trick. I doubt they would kick him off without a warning and it might have more impact if it came from them.
Good Luck
XX Jeannine
-
On my old allotment a few people used hoses when they were supposed to use the watering cans.It used to annoy me so much as I had hands down to my ankles and they were hosing away,some people are selfish and don't concern themselves with water bills.
If someone has had several warnings and what could happen to them has been spelt out to them then they deserve to lose their plots.
-
Oooh er! I am afraid that I am guilty here! I have - occasionally - used a hosepipe in the polytunnel! We do have the same rules on our site and I do understand that rules are rules.
Last year because there was a large increase on our water bill I stumped up £60 towards a water bill of £180 for the whole site - so in effect I feel vindicated in using a hosepipe but very very rarely.
I also use it when there is no one about normally first thing in the morning - so it is not general knowledge. I use it to fill my huge water tank also.
I can understand where everyone who is apalled by this guy's actions is coming from - and I feel guilty just writing this admission of guilt but I do feel that I have paid my way with the water cost.
O B :-[
-
also use it when there is no one about normally first thing in the morning - so it is not general knowledge. I use it to fill my huge water tank also.
I think they do now ;)
That said I think paying a third of the water bill in my opinion lets you off :)
-
Hi Betty is there no way you can take the hose off or change the connection so people can't use the hose. ??? ;D ;D ;D
-
Just filled my water butt at the allotment with watering cans. OH showed me how to use the hose to fill it, but I do feel guilty doing it, and also I can't understand how to get water to go up and then down and then up again. He did explain it in great detail, but I wasn't listening. When Manuel was there he sucked it through, that sounds rude. The water butt is half way down the allotment and it is easier to water from the butt the other end, even though I fill it up with water myself. That is my logic. If anyone knows what he is talking about with the hose explain, stuck it in the Council water tank and nothing happened. Actually I find watering quite relaxing, I do it slowly with a watering can that is not too heavy and many, many trips up and down.
-
We only had standing tanks on our UK lottie but I applied for disabled permission for a tap to connect a hose too, the council installed the tap for me.It was only supposed to be for filling water butts that were placed the length of the plots but the council man told me to use it to water with as long as I did it discreetley.Problem was I could never get connected to it at the weekend as everyone else used it so I had to use it when no one else was there .
XX Jeannine
If there was a tap I think folks thought it was OK to hook up to it even though it clearly staed no hoses without permission.
-
Hose-pipes are banned on our site.
One of our plot-holders installed a standpipe to provide drinking water, but it had a hose connection on it. So we removed it.
Sorry - if the rules say no hoses, it means no hoses! Not "under cover of dark" hoses. If anyone wants the rules changed, there is a correct way of doing it!
The law says I can't drive at 31 mph along my road, park in disabled bays, carry firearms, molest children or mug grannies - it doesn't say anything about "only when anyone's watching".
Sorry if I've offended anyone, but it was intentional. (But not personal, you understand....)
-
When I had a large lottie I would have gladly paid for my water so I could have used a hose pipe.
Maybe lotties should have a metre connected to each plot.......how much would that cost though.?
In these days of public money being tighter than ever surely the hose users should pay for the extra they use.
Debate ?? LOL :)
-
surely the main point here is the waste of water,also the cost yeah,but arent we as plotholders spossed to be enviromentally aware?
-
The law says I can't drive at 31 mph along my road, park in disabled bays, carry firearms, molest children or mug grannies - it doesn't say anything about "only when anyone's watching".
Just because there's a rule it doesn't mean the rule is enforceable. I suggest that as allotmenteers we challenge the legitimacy of our rule too infrequently. We're agriculturalists, we need water, and hose pipes are very convenient for that. If the landlord does indeed have a legitimate interst to protect then I suggest that a ban on hoses is not proportionate. And just because the rule is enforceable that doesn't make it right, certainly not if it is imposed without democratic consent. Rules aren't laws, and landlords are not feudal monarchs.
But to answer your question Betty, your duty is to your committee and it's my guess they have an agreement with BCC to enforce the rules, so you have no choice. I think it's a stupid rule, but then if it's true that BCC's water bill alone is four times its rental revenue then it does have problems, but I'd have thought charging the water at cost as an obvious first step.
-
Good Morning everyone, and thanks for all the replies.
The other committee member and I spoke to our chairman yesterday and it was agreed that we would give the plotholder the official BCC form so if he is there today, that's what we are going to do.
I am not happy about doing this because I am concerned that BCC will not carry out their threat to evict if someone offends after the first warning letter. As far as I know, nobody has been evicted for this reason yet.
To answer a couple of points.......
Our water is metered (for the site as a whole, not individual plots) and we have 12 standpipes dotted around the site. We are allowed to attached hoses to them, but the hose can only be used for filling water butts or watering cans. We sell butts (£5) so there is no excuse for people not having them on their plots.
Some plotholders have said they would pay extra so they could use hoses to water with but this would not work unless each plot was metered separately. I don't think we have the option of contributing individually towards the water bill as Old Bird did.
And as elvis says, there is also the environmental factor to take into consideration.
I don't like confrontation and I am not looking forward to giving this man the letter.....
-
Betty. If you are unsure about wether the council will carry out their threat then why dont you phone and ask them before you give the chap the letter.Its no good you doing your job and them just sitting back and not backing you up.
-
Betty. If you are unsure about wether the council will carry out their threat then why dont you phone and ask them before you give the chap the letter.Its no good you doing your job and them just sitting back and not backing you up.
I might do that Shirl. I'll let you know what happens.
-
I've been reading this thread with interest as water charges can form a large part of rent, and are expensive.
Basically I want to wish you good luck in dealing with the chap Betty - like you I don't like confrontation but I'm sure you will manage somehow to deal with it and deal with it well
1066 :)
-
Our site differs from SO many on here. ???
We have a site sec and a newly formed committee of which I am part of, for my sins. The site sec can inspect plots, order compost and various other bits and bobs, but the council should deal with this kind of stuff and I don't think Betty or any one else on this forum should have to deal with this, I know I said we are a different site but the council have people paid for these roles.
We are not allowed hoses on site, there are no taps but water troughs of which we have about 6 for dipping watering cans, good exercise and as Elvis rightly pointed out its the wastage of water with the hose pipes that are the point.
If people did have there own water meters ( COST! ) how long before people, sorry thieves started using your water instead of there own, sad :( I know but there are saddo's out there who would help there selves.
:-\ :-\ :-\
;D ;D ;D
-
Phew, I'm still alive!
The other committee member and I gave the plotholder the official BCC letter this morning. Of course, he denied using the hose for watering crops but we stuck our ground. Then he said something unbelievably stupid -
"Ah, you might have seen me using the hose inside the watering-can and watering like that, but that's allowed, isn't it?" ::)
This is in spite of the fact that there is a notice by every standpipe on the site telling people they can NOT put hoses in watering-cans and water with the hose running.
It seems to be almost impossible to get through to some people that there is a limited amount that the Allotments Dept. can spend on water and it has already exceeded that by £12,000 because people use hoses for watering.
Anyway, the bloke took the letter home with him but I doubt if we've heard the last of it. I've informed the Allotments dept. that we have given him the letter but haven't heard back from them yet.
I hate this sort of thing.....
-
Well done - and a very good idea to have more than one of you. Not only do you have a witness, but it indicates it's not just you being a bossy-boots.
We have to pay for our own water, which is why both hoses & standpipes are banned totally on our site. After our rent to the landlord it's easily the biggest item of expenditure. (And we're very hot at looking for and dealing with leaks. It goes off at night via a timer and is manually turned off during the winter.)
-
I suppose that being a self managed site you have to handle these kind of problems. Do not feel bad about it. He is the one breaking the rules.
Hopefully the letter will act as a warning and he will stop. Though my guess is that he will just become more cunning about it. I think that you need to note down the time and date when you and other witness say the use of hosepipe. Also make a careful note of the converstation and both sign and date it.
I suppose if you have a system of individual meters you would have to have a system of individual locks. Perhaps there is some kind of system which could take payment tokens so you pay to spray as it were.
-
How much would it cost to install individual meters on every plot over an entire site? Why should everyone have to pay just because the odd individual is selfish?
If he doesn't agree with a hosepipe ban then he brings the matter up with the Committee or - in the case of a Council site - with the Allotments Officer.
-
A lot of plotholders round Birmingham would pay extra for the use of a hose, and there's no need for individual meters. A set charge would do it just as well, then everyone would feel justified cracking down when they caught someone taking the mickey. As it is, I don't feel it's my role to enforce rules I wasn't consulted about. That's BCC's job.