Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: lilyjean on July 20, 2010, 01:07:08
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Is it true that you are not allowed to use a hose pipe on the allotment? I'm very confused, some say yes but our Parish Council says no......some very strong opinions!
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Depends on the Allotment. On the one im on we can use hosepipes to fill barrels, but not allowed to use them to water plots.
My solution is to use the hosepipe to fill the barrel whilst at the same time using a Wickes foul water barrel pump powered by a portable pertrol generator to water the plot with another hose....it isnt breaking the rules...........
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Thanx for your reply. It was exactly how it was said at the meeting.Hose pipes are only to be used for filling water butts. I can only imagine it must a general rule for all allotment holders throughout UK. Two weeks ago we had a representative of the eastern region as our guest speaker. She suggested for us to seriously consider getting hold of 'dippers'. Is this to encourage tenants not to waste water?
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On both council run sites where I have plots we're freely allowed to use hose pipes.
In addition allotments are classed as agricultural land so they're exempt from stage 1 hosepipe bans that affect householders.
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We can use hose pipes but not at the moment :).
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Wow! this is an amazing site. Thank you for all your replies and support in this issue.
Vortex ~ when you say council run, are you referring to Parish Council? Ours is run by the PC but we've recently formed an association. I'm hoping that the decisions can be made by our own community. But in order to do this I wanted to make sure that I've got my facts right. It seemed to me with this hose piping brought about some very conflicting thoughts. :)
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All council-owned allotment sites in Birmingham are only allowed to use the hose to fill water butts.
The Allotments dept. has a budget for water and this is currently overspent by about £12,000.
It is quite hard trying to explain to some plotholders that there is not a bottomless fund of money and that we/the allotments dept have to live within our means.
We have put up notices at every standpipe on the site to remind people.
[attachment=2]
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Thank you Squash64 :) It is so much easier to deal with concise rules with an explanation...everybody can then understand and accept them. My vision for us is to pull together as a community. Plenty of ideas to bash with for our first meeting! Thank you for the photos....something to consider :)
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We are allowed to use hosepipes, but not sprinklers.
The pressure is pretty poor if more than a couple of people are using them though, so that helps reduce the total amount of water used.
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Most of our plots have the 1000 litre butts. These have to be placed at the back of the plot preferably by the side of a shed so that the guttering can catch the rainfall.At the moment we are looking for a shower tray to go on the top of ours to catch any rain when it comes. ;D
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We're not supposed to use hoses except to fill water containers, but it would be perfectly legal to put a 1000 litre container up on posts, use a hose to fill it, and water the plot from that.
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We were allowed to use hosepipe last year but some people seemed to rather hog it. Now we can fill butts but otherwise it is watering cans only. It has certainly improved the amount of water available especially in the evenings. Using a hose does seem to spread it around somewhat. But I did rather like giving my runner beans a quick daily spray all over the flowers.
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We're not supposed to use hoses except to fill water containers, but it would be perfectly legal to put a 1000 litre container up on posts, use a hose to fill it, and water the plot from that.
But how would that be saving water?
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why would anyone want to use a hose to water directly on to the plot? its strictly banned at our site
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We don't use anymore water than when we had the 3 small butts its just that we don't have to keep getting the hose out to fill the big one.
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We don't have taps so no way of using hosepipes.
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Its free to use a hose to fill butts but we can pay £10 a year hosepipe license to use it, all plots that have paid have a licence on there number to say they have paid, we are self managed so have to watch the cost of the water.
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There is nothing in the allotments legislation that bans the use of hoses.
S.76 Water Industry Act 1991 (as ammended by S.36 Flood and Water Management Act 2010) makes a long list of things that can be banned in a hosepipe ban, but whether or not water an allotment with a hose is banned depends entirely on exactly what the water undertaking actually banned.
That said, what I think we're talking about here is whether watering with a hose from a standpipe can be banned by the landlord. Clearly some allotment sites make such a ban, but the question is whether the ban is enforceable.
On a site let under the Allotments Acts all rules are made under the Power created by S.28 Small Holdings and Allotments Act 1908 so you can't just make any rule. Rules can define the conditions under which [allotments] are to be cultivated. I guess that probably includes how you water.
A Rule banning hosepipes might possibly fall foul of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Landlords can't impose any old condition on their tenants. Group 18(h), Unreasonable ancillary obligations and restrictions of the OFT guidance says There is a clear risk of unfairness where terms put consumers at risk of incurring contractual penalties that are more severe than is necessary to
protect the real interest of the supplier. My guess would be that the landlord does have a legitimate concern that hosepipes will be left on so I think a Rule only allowing butts to be filled isn't unreasonable, though I'd suggest a total ban on hosepipes goes beyound protecting the landlord's legitimate interest.
Remember though that a ban on hoses can't be introduced without notice. If the tenancy agreements says the landlord can add any old arbitrary rule then that is certainly unenforceable because of UTCCR, so the landlord has to give notice to end the tenancy and offer a new agreement at the termination, and on Allotment Acts sites that's going to be the tenancy aniversary after September 2011, and otherwise on the tenancy aniversary after the contractual notice, or 6 months by default.
Personally I think we make too many Rules. I'd be surprised if water was used at more than £1.50/pole on average for a site, and it doesn't seem unreasonable that this cost be recouped in the rent.
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We have over a hundred plots on our site. One tap between two plots. Hosepipes to water the plot are allowed. The water bill at the end of the season is divided , and added to the allotment rent. We currently pay £50 per year. I think we are one of the luckier sites. :)
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Last year that amount would have been more than enough. But this year things are very dry. I think I am going to use considerably more.
But I do not understand why there should be more concern about leaving hosepipes on for spraying than for filling butts.
The water bill at the end of the season is divided
How much do you normally have to pay. Some people seem to use a great deal more water than others.
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Last year the bill meant each plot holder paid about £15 water rate. The point about some using more water than others is a constant topic for debate. There will always be some who think they are 'Fireman Sam', but we can't find a way that each plot could pay for what they use, without added cost.
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How big are your plots Gillysdad?
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Mine is about 10 metres wide and probably 50 metres long. They are long established allotments, and they do vary in size. Having had the allotment for 35 years I should know exactly. Mind, as you age it seems to get bigger.... ;)
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I reckon £2.50 per pole plus 75p per pole for water is a pretty sweet deal.
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To Unwashed.....
Thank you for an amazing piece of information, very very helpful :) I searched and searched for allotments legislation on whether hoses are banned. You've done it all for me! it was precisely what I wanted to learn....TY! I will take that piece of information to our next meeting :)
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We have over a hundred plots on our site. One tap between two plots. Hosepipes to water the plot are allowed. The water bill at the end of the season is divided , and added to the allotment rent. We currently pay £50 per year. I think we are one of the luckier sites. :)
How nice to have a tap between two plots. We have 5 for the whole site. That works out at one between 9 plots. Lucky if you are near one which we aren't
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I was interested in unwashed's reply too. We have all received letters saying our agreements will be terminated if we make "unauthorised attachments" to our taps.
I am downhill from our dip tank, so I set up a syphon. I am hoping this doesn't get banned too.
From what you say, our allotment owners (council owned and run) has no right to ban "attachments" or to turn us off our plots for that reason?
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I have now got hold of a 50L/min foul water pump with a hose attachment. I now fill the butt with the hose pipe whilst simultaneous using the foul water pump (powered by my 800W portable generator) to water the plot with another hosepipe. All perfectly within the rules.
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What areas Have a Ban at the Moment ???
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I have now got hold of a 50L/min foul water pump with a hose attachment. I now fill the butt with the hose pipe whilst simultaneous using the foul water pump (powered by my 800W portable generator) to water the plot with another hosepipe. All perfectly within the rules.
This would not be allowed in Birmingham.
We are trying to use less water, not find ways around the ban.
The Allotments dept. has £40,000 (I think) from its budget to spend on water each year. So far, it is overspent by £12,000.
We should be finding ways to water less, like mulching heavily and fitting guttering and drainpipes to sheds and greenhouses.
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Just caught up with this one.
We're a private site and have a metered water supply which we have to pay ourselves.
There are water tanks on or near most plots, and if necessary we run in extra tanks. Each one works with a ballcock. No stand pipes are allowed on the site. And no hoses, however used. The water is on a timer, so it's off at night. And we turn it off completely in the winter.
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Just caught up with this one.
We're a private site and have a metered water supply which we have to pay ourselves.
There are water tanks on or near most plots, and if necessary we run in extra tanks. Each one works with a ballcock. No stand pipes are allowed on the site. And no hoses, however used. The water is on a timer, so it's off at night. And we turn it off completely in the winter.
;D
Thats a good way
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Last time we did a flow check, using a hose cost 78p an hour. I'd say a landlord has a reasonable interest if he pays the water bill. On numerous ocasions I'd find people leaving hoses running overnight on their potatoes. Having paid £30 for a years water, they could be using a third of that over one night.
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We have 1 tap between 8 plots I think (I have a tap next to my plot so I am happy).
We pay £1.30/rod/year to pay for the water.
We are free to use hoses, some basic rules....
No Sprinklers.
No unattended hoses.
Sheds must have gutters and butts.
The pressure is not too good, so if I am using a hose the pressure drops a lot if somebody turns a tap on to fill a can, and on other plots the flow and stop completely if somebody else down the hill is doing a filling.
I try to be economical with the water, my beans/squash all have a pot or old milk container plunged into the ground so the water goes down to the roots and it is also a lot quicker that way.
If I think something needs a good water I will use a watering can, it's a lot quicker than using a hose.
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I was interested in unwashed's reply too. We have all received letters saying our agreements will be terminated if we make "unauthorised attachments" to our taps.
I am downhill from our dip tank, so I set up a syphon. I am hoping this doesn't get banned too.
From what you say, our allotment owners (council owned and run) has no right to ban "attachments" or to turn us off our plots for that reason?
What do your rules say? If there isn't a rule to say "no hoses", or indeed a rule that says what is an authorised attachment then no, the council can't just decide to ban what it wants, and nor can it just decide to change the rules. If there are taps on your site then without a very clear rule to the contrary it's an implied condition of your tenancy that you're entitled to a reasonable use of the water by hose or otherwise because that's what a reasonable person would infer.
If the hosepipe ban was in your rules when you got your plot it's more difficult to argue that the ban is unreasonable, though by no means impossible.
Just to be clear: none of this has anything to do with hosepipe bans imposed by the water undertaking.
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why would anyone want to use a hose to water directly on to the plot? its strictly banned at our site
I don't but plenty of people do!
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Last time we did a flow check, using a hose cost 78p an hour.
That is quite interesting. Though it obviously depends on the pressure. What bugs me is the charge for sewage when you water the garden. I hope to get my own back by using rainwater to flush the loo in the winter.
What also bugs me is the large standing charge, what is the point of having the supply metered when they then add a huge fixed fee, especially for the sewage?
Use water from a well at the lottie so as long as it does not run dry we will be fine.
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I've just checked Birmingham City Council's Allotment Rules:-
6.1 Hoses or sprinklers are not allowed except where required to fill water containers.
These rules are dated 1994 so it's not a new thing.
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I've just checked Birmingham City Council's Allotment Rules:-
6.1 Hoses or sprinklers are not allowed except where required to fill water containers.
These rules are dated 1994 so it's not a new thing.
thats only 15 years ago, barely yesterday. In this village theres a family who moved here in 1910, there still called 'the new family'.........
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thats only 15 years ago, barely yesterday. In this village theres a family who moved here in 1910, there still called 'the new family'.........
If they keep marrying outside their own family, they'll never be considered locals.
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What bugs me is the charge for sewage when you water the garden.
You can claim some back, you have to prove how much of the water you use to water the garden, normally by fitting a meter on an outside tap, so it is only worth it if you use a lot.
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thats only 15 years ago, barely yesterday. In this village theres a family who moved here in 1910, there still called 'the new family'.........
If they keep marrying outside their own family, they'll never be considered locals.
its a lie. 6 fingers and webbed feet is normal, you're the mutant :p
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Thanx to everyone for your replies. Some very enlightening information, some brilliant ideas and suggestions. I feel a lot more knowledgeable! :)
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<< If the hosepipe ban was in your rules when you got your plot it's more difficult to argue that the ban is unreasonable, though by no means impossible >>
Nothing about hosepipes in our rules - not mentioned at all, and I have just read them through again. The letter about being turned out for making "unauthorised attachments" was suddenly sent out last year when one of us noticed a leaking waterpipe and told the council. When they repaired it, they noticed the multiple attachments many people were making.
I have always found it easier to set up a syphon than to buy fiddly parts to fit the taps so it hasn't affected me.
Off the subject, but reading through the rules reminded me that we are supposed to "keep every hedge...properly cut and trimmed..." This is a complete impossibility because the hedge along my plot is about 18' high, mature willows and hazels and blackthorn, fountains of brambles, saplings and suckers marching towards my plot. It's as much as I can do to keep them at bay.
Another rule is "...not to cut or prune any timber...." which perhaps lets me off.
It's quite interesting to have read them again.
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Off the subject, but reading through the rules reminded me that we are supposed to "keep every hedge...properly cut and trimmed..." This is a complete impossibility because the hedge along my plot is about 18' high, mature willows and hazels and blackthorn, fountains of brambles, saplings and suckers marching towards my plot. It's as much as I can do to keep them at bay.
Another rule is "...not to cut or prune any timber...." which perhaps lets me off.
It's quite interesting to have read them again.
Willow, hazel, and blackthorn aren't "timber". Timber in English law means oak, ash, and elm, and maybe a few others locally, that are at least 20 years old. Willow, hazel, and blackthorn are all underwood. The distinction was that underwood is a crop that belongs to the tenant, but timber is part of the land itself and to cut the timber is the same as taking away the land itself.
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My brother in law is third generation Cornish, and insists he's Welsh.
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That's interesting, unwashed. I suppose it was their using the word "prune" that distracted me, making me think of loppers and secateurs. So I can carry on cutting beanpoles as long as they are not from a oak. I did "prune" some ash to make a grandson a bow, though......
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If it's part of an overgrown hedge, I'd have thought cutting it back would be fine, especially if you can point to a rule which requires it! Of course, that wouldn't apply to any 100-year-old oaks in the hedge. We have some.
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That's interesting, unwashed. I suppose it was their using the word "prune" that distracted me, making me think of loppers and secateurs. So I can carry on cutting beanpoles as long as they are not from a oak. I did "prune" some ash to make a grandson a bow, though......
english longbows are made from Yew. You need a piece that has yew heartwood ( the dark bit) on the front edge of the bow and outer wood (the light coloured stuff) on the inner face of the bow. This is what made the english longbow the Desert Eagle of its day. The two dissimilar timbers gave the bow exceptional power and strength
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Except that English yew was no good and they used imported wood!
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Except that English yew was no good and they used imported wood!
English Yew was perfectly good for it, and was used exclusively at first, the problem was the mass production of longbows depleted the number of yew trees in England so extensively that the king passed Statute of Westminster in 1472, every ship coming to an English port had to bring four bowstaves for every tun. Richard III increased this to ten bowstaves for every tun. The ironic part was that most of this timber came from Germany and Austria.
In 1483, the price of bowstaves rose from £2 to £8 per hundred, and in 1510 the Venetians obtained £16 per hundred. In 1507 the Holy Roman Emperor asked the Duke of Bavaria to stop cutting yew because it was damaging the Black Forest!!!
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Wow! Interesting again.
I read on Wiki "Ash trees are also perfect material for old fashion shafts for bow and arrows", which could well be incorrect, but there is a huge ash tree in the corner of our allotment site, so I went for it.
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Wow! Interesting again.
I read on Wiki "Ash trees are also perfect material for old fashion shafts for bow and arrows", which could well be incorrect, but there is a huge ash tree in the corner of our allotment site, so I went for it.
No ash is ok, but not as good as Yew. Ash makes bloody arrow shafts though, cost the grain tends to be straight. Ash is also good to turn for spade and fork handles, i have a flatbed lathe and turn my own handles, cos then i can make them longer (38" usually) as im tall and the bog standard fork handles give me backache as there too short.
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Wow where is this thread going? This is what the internet would be like if they'd invented it in 1490 instead of 1990 ;D
I will chip in on the watering topic, and say I agree with Squash64 that we should all be careful and not waste water, but we can use a hosepipe and still be careful.
I thought the question 'why would you want to use a hosepipe' was funny. Why wouldn't you want to? Water is heavy!
I use one sometimes, I water direct to the roots, at low pressure, and only do crops which need it. It only takes a few minutes. Some people find it hard to carry water to their plot in watering cans, and for equal opportunities if for nothing else, we should allow people to use hose pipes (where it's practically possible. )
I think about the fact that we're producing food - if our crops are less productive, and we supplement from a shop, we have no control over how carefully they irrigate and what resources they might use. So it could be a good investment to use a hosepipe on the allotment.