Allotments 4 All
Produce => Pests & Diseases => Topic started by: Tee Gee on July 10, 2010, 14:34:22
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As many of you may know I have been badly affected with aminopyralid as a result of using contaminated manure.
Unlike some on the plots who have got rid of their affected plants I have stuck at it to see what the end result would be.
Afterall the 'experts' say that affected crops are still edible, I will be the judge of that at harvest time assuming I do get a harvest!
My thoughts if I got rid would be; I would never know the answer so at least this way I will find out!
If they turn out 'dodgy' then and only then will I get rid of them! If however they produce a harvest then that will be a bonus!
Here is what the plants look like this morning;
Potatoes;
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/July%2010/aminopyralidaffectedpotatoes1.jpg)
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/July%2010/aminopyralidaffectedpotatoes.jpg)
Tomatoes;
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/July%2010/aminopyralidaffectedtomatoes.jpg)
Peppers;
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/July%2010/aminopyralidaffectedpeppers1.jpg)
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/July%2010/aminopyralidaffectedpeppers.jpg)
Cimbing French beans;
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/July%2010/aminopyralidaffectedbeans1.jpg)
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/July%2010/aminopyralidaffectedbeans.jpg)
On a better note:
Calabrese;
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/July%2010/Calabrese.jpg)
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/July%2010/Calabrese1.jpg)
Onions;
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/July%2010/Onions.jpg)
and I will be lifting my garlic within the next couple of days;
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd27/tgalmanac/July%2010/Garlic.jpg)
The main reason I have taken these pictures is; to show people such as youselves what aminopyralid looks like on various types of plants.
I hope none of you will ever be affected with this pestilence! but at least you now know what it looks like!
Sorry the pictures are a bit big but I thought I would lose less detail at this size!
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I've had exactly the same problem. I've left my spuds in and got quite a few off the charlottes this morning. I dug them all up to make space for the constant rotavating. The main crop(rooster) seems to have picked up so they are now going to be watered and fed. All brassica's have done well along with the onions. I felt really sick when I realized what had happened to all types of beans.
I did phone the farmer he told me he had supplied the whole village where he is but couldn't pin down which supplier had sprayed as he has 5 supplying hay.Bet his village doesn't have any more off him. Anyway, Rotavate, rotavate, rotavate and let's try again next year.
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Awww so sorry to hear this Teegee - your plot really is an inspiration! Hope you do get some crops!
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Those pictures bring back terrible memories Tee Gee. My tomato's plants were just like that, and the tomato's were pointed at the base, not like Shirley should have been. I burned the lot in a roaring Parkray fire.
For those curious as to how the plants became infected........
A neighbours greenhouse/shed caught fire late at night. The flames were seen by folks who live near the allotments. The fire brigade duly arrived with their hoses and put the fire out.
In the shed had been a packet of "weed killer", donated to my neighbour by a mate. This got mixed with the water from the hoses, the pressure of water caused the stuff to fly all over. Landing some of it on the greenhouse roof, then running off into the water butts. >:( ??? to be used as usual.
Needless to say nobody knew about the weedkiller until the plants started to die.
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Hi TeeGee, as mentioned before, feeling for you this year having been through it ourselves. We did get a crop from our Anyas that were affected, but the yield was down and the tubers were very deformed. Cabbages romped away, beans barely made it to 6" high & were disposed of. Now trying to decide what to do re organic matter and the plot - we're on clay so manure was always a key element for us.
Ho hum, chin up, keep rotovating and it will all come right in the end.
k
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So, am I ight to assume that by rotovating and constantly breaking up the soil and contaminant hay/manure the breakdown of the aminopyralid will be achieved?
Over what time period?
We have banned the use of one stable's manure as they were found to be using the d**n stuff(illegally) willy-nilly.
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Do you have any courgettes affected. Actually some of my cabbages look odd.
I am not clear whether it affects compost from affected crops.
I have broad beans affected as well. I am not sure how long it lasts since I have a very small amount of problem carried over from last year. Though I have not rotavated and not done much digging either.
Our farmer is still totally at a loss as to how it got into the manure. He is sure he has not used the products himself and his hay meadows are certaiinly full of weeds including clover and he also produces his own straw. The only things he buys in are animal feed stuffs for pigs and sheep. So he does not buy in any forage.
The really odd thing is that there is a huge amount of devastation this year but only a few patches my beans being one of them last year from the same pile of manure. I feel particularly devastated becuase every kept on saying it was potato leaf curl and ignored me and so lots of people used manure on their beans.....
I am really sorry you have been affected TeeGee. Your allotment is such an inspiration.
The pictures are great.
I have had some potatoes from mine and the results are not misshapen at all though the crop is minimal. Some of the broad beans pods are rather curled up.
Quite a lot of potatoes on our site are now unfurling.
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Some 60 of our allotments were affected last year and those who dug their manure into the ground have had no follow up affects this year. Even those who got no potatoes last year are allright this year. There is some evidence that the type of soil, the amount of soil bacteria and the amount of rain, affect how quickly the aminopyralid breaks down.
Most people suggest one growing season is enough, but in tests done by the Canadian Regulatory Authorities, suggest that in clay loam soils, it can take up to two years for the aminopyralid to be released. I suspect that the Canadian soils may have a hot dry Summer and a long frozen Winter, which will delay soil bacteria getting to work.
If people composted their potato haulms, then it may take another year for the aminopyralid to be got rid of.
This year I dug in the last bit of contaminated manure from my stockpile and one courgette plant has been affected.
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You suggest that potato haulms may affect compost. But what is the situation regarding brassicas etc which appear unaffected.
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I bought manure from Homebase this year, used it mixed with compost for the tomato ring culture in the polytunnel. 16 plants all affected, but I have been feeding with seaweed and comfrey and they have perked up but the yield is very low :'(
Sorry for your plot TG
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< /lurk>
Hello to all fellow gardeners.
Very sorry to hear that so many people are affected by this. There are 2 people on my allotment site who I would say are also affected but neither seem to recognise it. As you say, it is put down to something else: a virus, poor seed, planting too early, planting late etc.
But it makes you think that this problem is massively underreported. And there needs to be a lot more noise made about it to get it to stop.
I have taken on a plot that nobody else on the waiting list wanted because it was in such a state. I've tried to bring it back to life with B&Q compost and poultry manure pellets but it is costing me a fortune and I am too scared to buy muck as this would probably finish me off. So kudos to you who have this problem and keep going. But wot a bummer eh?
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Hi all
Its a difficult time when this happens and we talked a lot about all of this last year so please use the search tool to find those discussions.
Year three is fine for us no signs of symtpoms any more. we did two years of grass cuttings and chicken poo and now have found a clean supply of manure.
digging over does help as as tee gee showed some crops are unaffected but still we dont know what residues they are carrying and thereofre what you would injest if you ate them.
our local stables are aware now and are trying not to use aminopyralid products but not there ae in the system and relicensed and this can only continue.
As previously posted it is vital to report the problem to the pesticides board and to dow on the manure matters website and insist that they remove the contaminated manure away.
write to your MP and give photos of affected potato and tomato plants to allotmenteers.
good luck
x sunloving
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We have gone through about 8 tonns of manure on daughters plot all good stuff but we have run out for the last 2 8x8 beds. Brainwave as her local farmer can't deliver for a couple of weeks so I phoned a local to us organic farm & we can help ourselves, even told us where the bags were ;) to put it in. We drive past the farm on the way.
Denby visitor it might be worth asking around or perhaps yellow pages, there may be an organic farm locally. If you have to pay it would still be cheaper than B & Q compost.
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We're still getting the effects of it right across the site.
We were the first site in the country to report this to Defra, in June 2007. The rep they sent down identified the problem immediately. We only get manure from our on-site stables. They do not use any of the guilty sprays, but in 2006 they had bought in feed as their own store had been vandalised.
We were again affected in 2008 - along with half the country - so we advised our members not to use it. Last year, following Defra's advice, the stables spread the manure on their fields.
So, boys & girls, guess what's happened? Aminopyralid bonds to grass; and it was spread all over the grass; horses eat grass; it passes intact through the horse. So - you are keeping up at the back there, aren't you? - the fresh manure still has the aminopyralid in it! And this is from something introduced into the system four years ago!
And as for commercial potting composts, now they have cut down on - or even cut out altogether - the peat component, that has to be replaced by something. The manufacturers buy in compost from the plants that treat our domestic green waste. So - pay attention again - we use weed & feed stuff on our lawns; that contains a non-too-distant cousin of the dreaded weedkiller, namely clopyralid; we cut our grass and put the clippings out for the Council to collect; this is then heat-treated to kill weeds & infections and turned into compost; but neither aminipyralid nor clopyralid is destroyed by heat, so it's still present in the finished product; we use it to pot up our plants and it kills them!
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And as for commercial potting composts, now they have cut down on - or even cut out altogether - the peat component, we use it to pot up our plants and it kills them!
Well put Trevor thats what I meant when I said; Don't get me on about potting compost! >:( >:(
Every year I buy 4 bags multipurpose and 6 bags of compost from a wholesaler (through a friend) and as a general rule it has been quite good.
Well this year the potting compost looked beautiful dark, plenty of humus in other words just how I like my composts.
But >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( what was in it?
Damned if I know but I have lost around five or six hundred bedding plants due to it.
Have you noticed I haven't shown you many pictures of my garden this year??
Thats because I have nothing to show you.
What happened is; the root ball of everything I grew in this compost was virtually non existant!
When I removed the plant from a tray/pot or cell the compost fell away from the root system leaving a very sad looking tap rot, no feeder or water roots!
The compost that fell from the root system looked like 'wet coal dust' if any of you can remember what that looked like!
I am not saying it was coal dust being used in place of sand but if it was then 'sulphur' comes to mind and the roots were reminiscent of 'burning' i.e. being in contact with an acid product!
Then to add insult to injury we had the recent dry spell
Well!!..my plants stood no chance with its poor root system they couldn't cope with the dryness of the soil and just frizzled up.
Now one can argue that I have done something different this year thus causing the problems and that would be a fair assumption! But how is it that those plants I have grown in my home made compost are thriving?
As Trevor intimated; what the hell are they putting into the compost??
I know next year it is a case of 'beggar' the peat saving brigade I'm buying peat and sand and making my own compost!
I will close now because my blood pressure is up and if you will pardon the pun I will close by saying; I am sick and tired of being 'SH*T' on by politicians/commerce and the PC brigade and I think something should be done about it ..........but what?
Sorry for the rant folks but that just how I feel about the whole issue. :-\ :-\
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All the members of the allotment association(Eastleigh and district) on e-mail had one from the secretary regarding this. Some of the sites have had problems with Aminopyralid contaminated manure from local sources, at least in one site in Southampton has been affected too.
I've used manure in the past but will not be doing so anymore - the risks of getting the bad stuff is just too great. From now on for me I'll be using mostly green manures to help enrich the soil and pro-grow(if ok to use) to help open up the heavy clay of my plot.
Mark
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^^ yes I am also wondering if this green manure thing is the way to go.
I have got good results from these 10kg buckets of dried chicken poo that the GCs sell but what is it exactly? Presumably it is the product of the battery hen industry and as a buyer of free range eggs I just don't want to support this.
But manure from organic farming is worth looking at certainly.
Like many rookies, my plot is a former landfill in an old claypit so soil inprovement is my #1 priority. But we are being squeezed from both sides with the unknow quantity manure and the rentacrowd treehuggers telling us what we can't use - what is there left?
It is a real challenge. I am always on the look out for anything that can go in my compost bins but it is going to take me a decade to do this.
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^^ yes I am also wondering if this green manure thing is the way to go.
I have got good results from these 10kg buckets of dried chicken poo that the GCs sell but what is it exactly? Presumably it is the product of the battery hen industry and as a buyer of free range eggs I just don't want to support this.
But manure from organic farming is worth looking at certainly.
Chicken pellets are fertilisers. Manure is a soil conditioner. They do different jobs so theres no point in comparing them.
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Denby visitor do you have room for a few chickens. I have 4 chicks & 3 guinea pigs & i use hemcore on top of newspaper for GPs & just hemcore for chicks. It rots down very quickly into usable compost. That could be added to the compost bin. I ask neighbours for scraps too. Do you have friends or nieghbours with hens or pets that could give use the remains when cleaned out?
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Chicken pellets are fertilisers. Manure is a soil conditioner. They do different jobs so theres no point in comparing them.
If you are saying that they are chalk and cheese, well I don't agree: OK they are processed and handled very differently but basically they are both poo from herbivores. So they must have a lot in common.
Unfortunately I haven't got any hens or other vegetarian pets or any access to their bedding from anyone else. But I am getting a good harvest from the plot with the B&Q stuff so it is not all bad. It is just that the plot is very hard to dig, full of perennial stuff coming back up and it is just about impossible to sow any seeds. Ah, the joys of the allotment eh :-)
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Garden Organic are collecting data on contamination incidents
http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dHhSbUZDbEgtLWxadW5RaWZZNHAzcHc6MQ
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But what I am trying to say is that, even as a rookie, I can see that this aminopyralid thing is everywhere. And that many gardeners are affected who don't even recognise it. It is really difficult when you see your neighbour with the fern effect on his spuds and toms and other stuff not taking off - you can mention it once that this may be weedkiller in the manure he got but if he doesn't pick up the ball what are you supposed to do? And then your other neighbours talk about getting some manure to improve the soil on their garden, what can you say? It is really difficult when it all comes down to what some newbie has read on the internet. I just say that in spite of the state of my plot I won't be buying because of the risk. What else can you do?
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Chicken pellets are fertilisers. Manure is a soil conditioner. They do different jobs so theres no point in comparing them.
If you are saying that they are chalk and cheese, well I don't agree: OK they are processed and handled very differently but basically they are both poo from herbivores. So they must have a lot in common.
They both start out as poo but thats where the similarity ends. Manure opens up the structure of the soil and helps it to retain water because of the bulky organic content. Chicken pellets have had all the water and bulky organic matter removed and are just dessicated nutrients in a convenient pellet form. Chicken pellets wont improve the strucutre of a heavy clay soil and they wont improve the waterretaining qualities of a freedraining soil.
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but basically they are both poo from herbivores.
Very true but the bulking agent in the manure is the silage which; when used as bedding, is the part that does the soil improving and probably carries most of the aminopyralid as any weedkiller on it has not passed through the animal.
The poo part could be just a catalyst and not carry much of the hormone weedkiller, and who knows what didn't come out might be in our next pint of milk or Tee bone steak ( sorry only scaremongering I don't really believe that)
I have not seen anything to this affect in the many write ups but its seems feasible to me.
In other words most of the content of the manure has not gone through the animal so the greatest source of the problem could be there.
I'm no chemist so I don't know?? but isn't grass clippings that have been treated with a weedkiller just not another form of silage and we are advised to keep that away from our crops!
No!! the more I think about this problem the more mind boggling it becomes and the annoying thing is; much of it seems to be commercially/politically based and once again Joe Public gets the brunt of it!
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" bulking agent in the manure is the silage " ?
I think you mean bedding straw, Silage is something all together different.
. (A pickled grass fan )
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Once I got my eye in last year I saw it every where even in St James Park in London.
The problem is that there is still a lot of contaminated manure about the place, and old bottles of the stuff on dusty shelves. If the contaminated manure is spread on crops or grasslands the aminopyralid will continue to come round. It seems to be very persistant stuff and very small concentrations seem to have an adverse effect.
The problem is that manure does a brilliant job. I can't make enough compost. I have been getting recycled stuff which so far has been ok but I am concerned about this. But most of all I do not want to be contaminated by this stuff. I am concerned about the food I am buying. There is no way of telling whether brassicas and sweetcorn is contaminated? Is the meat I am eating from animals fed on contaminated foodstuffs? It is getting into the water supplies?
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As I understand it, silage which can contain grass treated with aminopyralid, is fed to the animals especially over the Winter. At the moment in the UK, straw from cereal crops should not contain any aminopyralid as it has never been licensed in the UK to be used on cereals.
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yes becuase every farmer reads the label and checks the licesnsing for every product they use.
rubbish just like no one uses creosote any more!!!
its about greedy dow and garden product sellers and foolish famers.
However we have had this problem now for three years and there shouldnt be anyone not testing manure for this poison from DOW. If you dont test becuase you wont think it will happen to you and you belive the farmers and stable owners when they say oh no it wasnt our stuff then its partly your own fault to.
its a horrible thing that the link between organic gardeners and stables is now severed by a greedy chemical company but thats where we are. many folks didnt report the damage write to thier mps or make any sound at all when the relisencing came up and so it was relicensed. if you want that to change then you have to talk to people who can help write to your mp, the pesticides people and get dow to take your manure away.
okay this is my last rant as really we said all this these last two years so please read the old posts by searching and always do a test before you apply manure or new compost products.
x sunloving
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I have to say up front I have never had any dealings with this awful stuff and I think I got out just in time. I am told it is banned in Canada so am not expecting any problems .
I have tried to put myself in the shoes of you all, when I picture Tee Gees site and all the wondrous advice that it brings it makes my blood boil to think if it.
I agree that there is not much news out there, at least it seems to like pulling hens teeth trying to get information and obviously the GP don't know what is going on, but I think they should and have wondered how.
Isn't there a TV show that uncovers such as this, like a Watchdog report or something where they look into and publicise the situation, I would think this is right up their street. I am sorry I can't think of names as the Canadian shows are coming into my head when I try.
I think it affects many more folk than we realise. When things like this happen it always costs money and losses in agriculture which usually show up at the supermarket check out.
If it were publicised more then surely the other lottiers would be genned up enough to recognise it and be better equipped to deal with it, anything to move that on would shorten the life of the problem surely.
I am nobody with a voice, heck I don't even live there any more but surely getting this out to the general public would have to help.
I am not one for getting angry but this does it for me,and it sees to be shoved under the carpet a bit, that can't be right.
My rant over, no I will stay mad I think, and do a bit of googling re Canada.
XX Jeannine
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I think you mean bedding straw, Silage is something all together different.
Point taken but No!
The farmer I deal with is a cattle farmer and would have to buy in straw which is not as plentiful as it once was! so he uses silage as bedding because he grows it himself!
And as realfood says these particular weedkillers are not used on cereal crops.
If the farmer had used 'straw' then perhaps my problems might have been less.
Is the meat I am eating from animals fed on contaminated foodstuffs?
I wouldn't worry too much about that Digeroo when you consider we drink milk from animals that are injected to prevent the transfer of tubercolosis and have done for years. Then their are the beef cows that are given hormones to reduce the fat/meat ratio.
I guess it goes on and on and on, but don't worry the eurocrats have changed their minds about the curve in bananas & cucumbers so perhap[s in the fulness of time they will solve this proplem ::) but don't hold your breath ;)
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I've had exactly the same problem. I've left my spuds in and got quite a few off the charlottes this morning. I dug them all up to make space for the constant rotavating. The main crop(rooster) seems to have picked up so they are now going to be watered and fed. All brassica's have done well along with the onions. I felt really sick when I realized what had happened to all types of beans.
I did phone the farmer he told me he had supplied the whole village where he is but couldn't pin down which supplier had sprayed as he has 5 supplying hay.Bet his village doesn't have any more off him. Anyway, Rotavate, rotavate, rotavate and let's try again next year.
Hmm....wonders if you are talking about the bloke that supplied me [in Shardlow???]
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As I understand it, silage which can contain grass treated with aminopyralid, is fed to the animals especially over the Winter. At the moment in the UK, straw from cereal crops should not contain any aminopyralid as it has never been licensed in the UK to be used on cereals.
Aminopyralid was originally licensed for use on grass pasture-land. That's what horses graze on - they don't eat cereal crops. The grass they eat contained aminopyralid and passed intact through their system - it's not destroyed by heat.
But the point I was making was that Defra, in their wisdom, advised farmers to spread contaminated manure back onto the pasture! So, the grass re-absorbs the chemical and the whole thing is re-cycled!! It doesn't matter whether it's currently licensed - actually, it is, but only in formulations used on road & rail verges - or how long ago a farmer used it, or when the animals eat the stuff. The current Government (ie. Defra) advice for dealing with the problem isn't at all - it's only re-cycling it!!
As I see it, until someone does a bit of joined-up thinking, this thing is with us for ever!!!
And Jeannine, do try googling "aminopyralid" & "Canada" and let us know what you come up with. When we were researching this a couple of years ago, a number of us found a lot of interesting information from Canada and New England which ultimately led to it being banned here. (I won't say any more, as I know that Dow monitor this forum.)
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Well guess what. I have been googling and just realeased on June 14th is a brandnew product from Doe called Clearview,give you one guess what it contains.
I have read all I can including an article about safety and one fro Ag Canada dated July 1st which reads.
There are no grazing restrictions for livestock or lactating animals on treated areas as it does not metabolise, it is rapidly excreted from the body in the urine.
Any hay cut from pasture in the year of application should only be used on site registered livestock.
The manure or compost from animals fed the treated hay should only be used by registered use sites where loss of broadleaf forage plants including legumes can be tolerated
Now I may not be real bright when it comes to herbicides but it seems to me that it is OK to keep your dairy cattle on ground that has been sprayed, and if the hay from the pasture is used it can only be used by the registered owner who sprayed the stuff on his own land, the same with the manure produced by those cattle that ate the hay.
So if I drive up to the farm and ask the framer to sell me a load of his manure he has to say no!! Same thing if I ask him to sell me a bale of hay.
Am I right?
I didn't get the link but looking up Clearview Canada takes you to Dow and also to Ag Canada.
I also found loads of articles written in Canada about the problems in the UK, it mentioned specifically the crops on lotties and said Dow were saying not to eat them.
Interesting.
XX Jeannine
Dow monitors this forum!! Well Dow get this.. if any of my veggies end up being frizzled by your bloody stupid Cleaview I shall have no hesitaion is attracting attention to the stuff, if I have to chain myself naked to a flaming crop sprayer in the middle of Vancouver on a Saturday to do so!!! So you can take that back to your next board meeting... and don't think I don't mean it
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I was reading some info about what to do with affected veg, can't remember where it was (possibly RHS?) BUT get this do not put in green bins, put with household rubbish. Therefore it won't get in the green compost will it ;D ;D ;D. How have affected people been advised please.
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Trouble is Jeannine; Dow are selling a product fit for purpose and the contract is between them and the buyer!
However if the buyer sells / passes on the bi- product to third party after being warned in Dow' s enclosed literature not to, that's where the problems begin.
As I see it Dow are in the clear!
Now if the bi- product gets into the food chain via commercial vegetables then something might be done about it.
Trouble is allotments are not classified as the ' food chain'
So I guess the problem is with us for a long time unless someone takes up the case on behalf of the allotment holder.
Personally I don't have much faith in the political approach because of our European connection and now that it seems to have got back into Canada again it just makes you wonder how widespread the problem is?
So much for grow your own perhaps Prince Charles might take up our case!
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Also, some farmers GIVE it away, not sell >:(
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perhaps Prince Charles might take up our case!
I emailled Price Charles last year. He did not jump at the opportunity.
I am having some spots of problems in areas which had compost. Dow are recommending caution in putting contaminated crops into the compost. But what about brassicas and sweet corn which do not appear to have a problem.
I am sure that the stuff will be thrown out in the greenbins. Lawn clipping with Aminop's cousin certainly goes in. Most people do not recognise the symptoms anyway. If it is in potting compost it will certainly find its way into the recycling.
Jeannine I admire your spirit. Perhaps we have not been active enough. But I think that sooner rather than later AminoP will escape in Canada get those chains ready. It is supposed to be used on grassland but people seem to use it on cerael crops and so it seems to get into the feed stuffs. When another farmer buys feed there is no way of telling whether it is contaminated or not. Try as we might we cannot find out how we are getting the contamination. It is even more difficult since you use manure at least a year if not two after it is produced.
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We are currently having well water tested as a huge heap was left for a year right next to a well that my lottie neighbour uses. He used it on some tomatoes alongside 'clean' water and was getting the symptoms so is looking into trying to get it banned this way.
If we can prove that it can contaminate water then this might be another avenue to explore.
He didn't ask DOW to remove his; he still has all the evidence on site.
His demeanour has changed completely since we found out we were affected; honestly it has shaken his whole attitude - at least when mine was removed I felt happier and could move on. It's not just crops it affects.
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Yes aj,same bloke!!
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Since the only source of our contamination looks like being contaminated animal feed stuffs AminoP is already in the food chain. Any animal you eat may have been given contaminated feed. Meanwhile if it gets into the water then if we have got it then it is in the drinking water of everyone between us and the mouth of the River Thames.
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There is quite a bit of evidence from other victims' experiences as well as scientific reports, that show that when bacteria release aminopyralid from the manure, it can travel for many metres in the ground water.
It is therefore quite likely that the well water is contaminated with aminopyralid.
I had left a barrowfull on a higher bed, before placing it elsewhere. I later realized that the aminopyralid had spread in the ground water to affect a lower bed, several metres away.
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Yes aj,same bloke!!
Well, I think someone should call him in a few weeks and ask for some to see if he is still selling it.
*wonders if we should get a 'name and shame' website set up....
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There is quite a bit of evidence from other victims' experiences as well as scientific reports, that show that when bacteria release aminopyralid from the manure, it can travel for many metres in the ground water.
It is therefore quite likely that the well water is contaminated with aminopyralid.
We were told by DOW that it was safe once it reaches ground water.
[Well they would say that, wouldn't they??]
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The aminopyralid is definately not neutralised when it reaches the groundwater. It will be diluted depending on how much rainfall there is.
This is a para taken from a New York report
A supplemental groundwater impact review was conducted by the Department using additional information submitted by Dow AgroSciences on December 21, 2006. The document was entitled “Aminopyralid NYSDEC Leaching Assessment Response” dated December 20, 2006. While the response submitted by Dow AgroSciences, LLC, was informative, the Department could not ignore the inadequacy of the original aerobic metabolism study. Therefore the Department could not ensure that the labeled use of aminopyralid would not negatively impact groundwater resources in sensitive areas of New York State.
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We have no evidence of well water here being affected. Those who have not used manure are mostly clear of the problem.
I did not have any movement of contamination last year, it luckily stayed put and did not leech downhill. It seems to be able to affect one plant in a row, and sometimes only a few leaves on a plant. It seems to be much more of a problem this year than last. Also there are some areas where there was no problem last year yet there are problems this year with no additional manure. So I have one affected bean plant in a row grown on my own compost in an area manured last year which had unaffected tomatoes last year.
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Although I have not had any of your problems concerning Aminopyralid, I have been following the thread since you all started posting. I find it very difficult to get manure where I live, but I would certainly think twice before I used it. Can't anything be done, I do not suppose MP's or the like use A4A very much, too busy in parliament!!!
We need a louder voice. What about starting with your local newspaper so that a wider public can be aware of it. Submit pictures of your deformed crops. Invite them over to see for themselves. And yes name and shame if you are certain your supplier is responsible. Good Luck to you all.
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What about a government petition...anyone can start one,, it would be the wording and what the goal behind it was that would baffle me...What actually does everybody want.To recognise allotment holders as part of the food chain. I think you would get tons of signatures. XX Jeannine
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What about a government petition
I have e-mailed 'You Gov' today hopefully they will give us some guidance!
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Just Googled Aminopyralid, perhaps some of you have read "home grown veg ruined by herbicide (environment) The Observer 2008" about fourth and fifth down. Makes interesting reading. Sorry but I never learnt to do links.
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Some of us signed the petition last year opposing the re licensing of aminopyralid to no avail obviously.
I also got my MP to give the relevant Minister a hard time, but I fear that the chemical and farming lobby is too powerful.
Dow fears adverse publicity, so the more articles and programmes that deal with this problem the better.
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I'm surprised Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall isn't in on the complaints :-\
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Well it won't hurt to try another petition especailly if something connected to lotties. go for it Tee Gee, I can get the Canadian folks to sign up too.
XX Jeannine
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The last government totally ignored all the petitions, and if anything this lot are even less likely to listen.
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The last government totally ignored all the petitions, and if anything this lot are even less likely to listen.
Precisely.
:'(
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You could be correct, but lets not make it too easy for them eh, it ia always worth a go. Might isn't always right!!
XX Jeannine
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We have gone through about 8 tonns of manure on daughters plot all good stuff but we have run out for the last 2 8x8 beds. Brainwave as her local farmer can't deliver for a couple of weeks so I phoned a local to us organic farm & we can help ourselves, even told us where the bags were ;) to put it in. We drive past the farm on the way.
Denby visitor it might be worth asking around or perhaps yellow pages, there may be an organic farm locally. If you have to pay it would still be cheaper than B & Q compost.
Manure supplied by organic farms has been affected so obtaining from an organic supplier isn't a safeguard
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perhaps Prince Charles might take up our case!
I emailled Price Charles last year. He did not jump at the opportunity.
But what about brassicas and sweet corn which do not appear to have a problem.
I am sure that the stuff will be thrown out in the greenbins.
Perhaps we have not been active enough.
I too emailed Prince Charles back in 208 when the problem first affected us.
Brassicas and sweetcorn will have absorbed the chemical so in theory shouldn't be composted.
As for not being active enough I think you will find there has been lots of activity on the subject - which is why the stuff was suspended in the first place. We have had newspapers, radio, TV, MPs, MEPs, gardening organisations and anyone else you can think of involved. The problem is that once the stuff got into the system removing it isn't at all easy.
As for green bin waste well that's another problem.
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What about a government petition...anyone can start one,, it would be the wording and what the goal behind it was that would baffle me...What actually does everybody want.To recognise allotment holders as part of the food chain. I think you would get tons of signatures. XX Jeannine
There were two government petiitions set up last year the latest accrued over 2,500 signatures and the governments response is here http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page21280 Two MPs tabled Early Day Motions in Parliament but didn't raise enough support amongst fellow MPs
If you want evidence of everything that has been done visit the links from this page http://glallotments.co.uk/ACManure.aspx and read all the other threads on the forum dating back a couple of years.
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The last government totally ignored all the petitions, and if anything this lot are even less likely to listen.
As for the EDMs mentioned in my last reply not one Conservative MP signed to support either. One was tabled by a Labour MP and the other a LibDem
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I've seen the evidence and the petitions, the petition I was talking about was different, see earlier post XX Jeannine
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I've seen the evidence and the petitions, the petition I was talking about was different, see earlier post XX Jeannine
I realise that Jeannine but wanted you to be aware that we hadn't all been sitting on our hands for two years - lots of people have been making a lot of noise about the problem.
I think one issue is that until you are directly affected, or know people who are little notice is taken of any publicity.
I asked the CRD if they could send posters out to garden centres and they did create some information postcards see http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2541&link=%2Fuploadedfiles%2FWeb%5FAssets%2FPSD%2FManure%5FPostcard%2Epdf (http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2541&link=%2Fuploadedfiles%2FWeb%5FAssets%2FPSD%2FManure%5FPostcard%2Epdf) but said they couldn't insist garden centres displayed anything.
The e-petition service has in fact been suspended by the new government so it isn't possible to use this facility.
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Yes I know, it was a couple of years ago when ot first hit lottie friends on here, I have pretty kept up with all that has been done bit there issomething else new all the time. I was abgry because the lottie gardeners were not being recognised as true growers and not part of the food chain XX Jeannine
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Yes I know, it was a couple of years ago when ot first hit lottie friends on here, I have pretty kept up with all that has been done bit there issomething else new all the time. I was abgry because the lottie gardeners were not being recognised as true growers and not part of the food chain XX Jeannine
You are right that allotment holders are not protected. This was one of the problems with trying to get trading standards involved - the guy that I spoke to tried his best but in the end said it just didn't come under his wing.
Maybe one way forward is to try and get the NSALG to mount some sort of a campaign or the soil association or an organisation similar.
The problem with ap is that it does the job farmers buy it for very well - that is what causes problems down the line. Even if it had stayed off the market we would have been left with an ongoing problem. Research that I did put me off manure altogether as even without the ap it can be a cocktail of chemicals - each is tested separately but ther seems to be no testing that proves when a is mixed with b it is still safe. Sorry rant over!
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Hi all!
Been away for a week so have just picked up this thread.
My friend planted all her tomato pepper and the rest plants in bought in seed compost (or multi purpose) and they plants all suddenly went weird, but she complained to the place where she bought it and she was swiftly given 2 x £25 vouchers from the compost maker! She still has a few of the plants that she has nursed all the year so far and they are - to be blunt - pretty weedy and a waste of time! But at least she has some recompense - possibly worth a try TeeGee?
Luckily I havent got any manure in for the last 3 years and am relying solely on my 4 large compost heaps and seaweed and - touch wood - seem to be doing OK
Ann
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Old Bird, it would be interesting to know which make of compost and type that your friend used.
I have seen several reports of problems with Homebase peat free.
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Some of my cabbages are looking pretty sick as well.