Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => Allotment Movement => Topic started by: Unwashed on June 30, 2010, 20:37:03
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As part of Newbury Town Council's on-going campaign to suppress self-management the Council have said that there are self-managed sites that charge £100 per pole. They won't tell me which councils so I can't verify this for myself, so I wondered if you knew, because it sounds unlikely.
[a tenant] asked if Newbury Town Council had checked other councils' charges, and [the service manager] stated that we had investigated other allotments fees, adding that we had found that some self managed sites were as much as £100.00 / pole.
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FOI request to get the details?
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That is riduculous i can't imagine anyone paying £500 for half an allotment and certainly not £1000 for a whole one. Not even the most expensive private schemes charge that much.
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FOI request to get the details?
They'll refuse, they have declared me to be a vexatious complainant. I agree that my questions are inconvenient, but that's not quite the same thing. I could appeal to the Information Commissioner of course, but that would take months. If what they say is true then I expect someone on here will have heard of it.
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You only have to look back on previous threads here to see what people around the country are paying for plots. And they ain't paying them charges. :o :o
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I feel that you should ask for the information. They have stated something and should justify it. I think in this case you have every cause to be vexed. I feel that one of the founding principles of the FOI is that people can check that the information used for decisions is correct.
Can you not find someone else to also ask for the information as well. What about the local press?
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Simon, you can email me with any details you may have, name of councillor who stated this, date of occurence, etc.
I'll quite happily ask under FOI !!
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Thank you Tony, e-mail sent. Thanks everyone.
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Simon we all know they are talking bollox, and if they are tuning in, its still bollox. :( :( :(
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Simon we all know they are talking bollox, and if they are tuning in, its still bollox. :( :( :(
Cheers Bro. And yes, they tune in. Chairman of Community Services read this thread earlier this evening.
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I feel for you Unwashed it sounds like Newbury Council is being run by first class liars!!
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That is riduculous i can't imagine anyone paying £500 for half an allotment and certainly not £1000 for a whole one. Not even the most expensive private schemes charge that much.
This one http://www.thegardencentregroup.co.uk/GYOPLOTS/GYOPLOTS,default,pg.html (http://www.thegardencentregroup.co.uk/GYOPLOTS/GYOPLOTS,default,pg.html) works out over £100/pole if you take the greenhouse and shed option.
Does anybody visit any of these garden centers? It would be interesting to see if anybody has actualy taken any of these on.
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These (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/8467689.stm) are probably the equivalent of something near £100 a pole but not council and not really selfmanaged in the normal meaning.
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It's possible looking at the last two posts that there are 'plots' that work out at '£100 per pole', but they are hardly comparing like for like if that is the case. Sounds like they may be comparing the chauffeur driven limo to a bus pass to me.
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Simon, you can email me with any details you may have, name of councillor who stated this, date of occurence, etc.
I'll quite happily ask under FOI !!
Hi Tony, have those nice people at Newbury Town Council got back with any clarification yet?
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tenant] asked if Newbury Town Council had checked other councils' charges, and [the service manager] stated that we had investigated other allotments fees, adding that we had found that some self managed sites were as much as £100.00 / pole.
It does not say they where only council sites looked at.
Wyevale charge £10 per week with a shed and glasshouse.
£5-00 per week with no shed and glasshouse.
May be they are not liars then ?
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As part of Newbury Town Council's on-going campaign to suppress self-management the Council have said that there are self-managed sites that charge £100 per pole. They won't tell me which councils so I can't verify this for myself, so I wondered if you knew, because it sounds unlikely.
[a tenant] asked if Newbury Town Council had checked other councils' charges, and [the service manager] stated that we had investigated other allotments fees, adding that we had found that some self managed sites were as much as £100.00 / pole.
Newbury Town Council have confirmed (http://www.newbury.gov.uk/minutes10/minutescs100524.pdf) that the self-managed sites they were talking about were 3.6 pole Wyevale (http://www.thegardencentregroup.co.uk/GYOPLOTS/GYOPLOTS,default,pg.html) plots at £10/week which work out at £144 per pole. They also reference the New Allotment Company's site at Honnington (http://www.thenewallotmentcompany.com/PDFs/TNACHonningtonSummary3.pdf) which charges between £30 and £50 per pole, though it's not obvious why they should mention that.
Newbury Town Council have also explained Cllr Johnson's response that the average costs found were around £6 to £7 per pole. I surveyed 20 of Newbury's neighbouring boroughs at the start of the year which found Newbury's 6.94/pole to be the most expensive in the area and suggested that the average rent was between £3 and £4 per pole. The Council sampled Thurrock (£8.25/pole), and Enfield (£7.20/pole).
Now is it just me, or does this strike you as just the teensy-weensyist bit dishonest? I mean Wyevale aren't actually allotments in the sense that most of us would understand it and they're certainly not self-managed in any shape or form so how is £100/pole supposed to be representative of the cost of a self-managed council sites?
And isn't it everso slightly odd to suggest that a representative measure of the going rate around Newbury is more properly found by sampling Thurrock and Enfield? The Council say
Research of rents reported on the internet suggests a wide variety of rents, depending on a variety of factors and level of service, so a true comparable average is difficult to establish.
but I'd suggest that splitting the difference between any two sites that are more expensive than Newbury is not the most reliable methodology. I'd even presented the Town Council with my sample data in a question to committee, though they sensored it and called it a misrepresentation.
Seriously though, how can they in all good conscience imply like this that self-management means £100 per pole and that Newbury's rent is below average.
(http://www.emilyware.co.uk/earthwork/images/stories/articles/allotmentrentleaguetable.jpg)
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We have just had confirmation of Birmingham's rent increases which start in 2011
http://bdacallotments.webs.com/news.htm
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It would seem that as suspected the figure Newbury are using are not genuinely comparable. Certainly these expensive private schemes are way out of order.
Enfield and Thurrock would not seem to be to be comparable with Newbury which I would hardly describe as Urban.
It is not surprising they are so hostile when you are showing up just how they are trying to manipulate the information they provide.
What is the saying: lies d**n lies and statistics, and now we add Newbury Statistics.
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squash64 i had the letter off brimingham rip you off sh1ty council and given i paid £24 last yr, will pay 28 this yr, then 2011 they want 40 2012 they want 60 and 2013 75..... :o im gob smaked, think ill be loosing my plot as i just cannot afford it anymore :'( kids were upset when i told them too and this late payment penalty buisness??? pay by 9th nov or u loose ur plot, k get it, but does the
£10 penalty apply if theyre not paid on or by the 1st oct or after the 9th nov?? cos surely they cant make u pay a late fee AND take your plot??? eh?? i think the councils cottoned on that its become popular again n want 2 put a load of ppl off making the sites half empty or worse again so they can justify reclaiming the land or at least clawing better revenues off it >:( borrocks i say! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
this was for us an affordable safe place to take the kids to learn about growing food get some fresh air exercise and a place to grow stuff given nothing thrives in our garden @ home and i know the increase may not be a lot by many people standards but for us its mighty painfull!!!! wha does anyone else think about the rate of increase???????????? seems 2b mighty fast 2 me.... :o
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I thought Allotment Law was quite 'prescriptive'? How have these councils managed to get around:
1) Rents can only be increased at the same rate as other leisure facilities (or are they facing massive increases too?)
2) You should receive 12 months notice of any increase.
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squash64 i had the letter off brimingham rip you off sh1ty council and given i paid £24 last yr, will pay 28 this yr, then 2011 they want 40 2012 they want 60 and 2013 75..... :o im gob smaked, think ill be loosing my plot as i just cannot afford it anymore :'( kids were upset when i told them too and this late payment penalty buisness??? pay by 9th nov or u loose ur plot, k get it, but does the
£10 penalty apply if theyre not paid on or by the 1st oct or after the 9th nov?? cos surely they cant make u pay a late fee AND take your plot??? eh?? i think the councils cottoned on that its become popular again n want 2 put a load of ppl off making the sites half empty or worse again so they can justify reclaiming the land or at least clawing better revenues off it >:( borrocks i say! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
this was for us an affordable safe place to take the kids to learn about growing food get some fresh air exercise and a place to grow stuff given nothing thrives in our garden @ home and i know the increase may not be a lot by many people standards but for us its mighty painfull!!!! wha does anyone else think about the rate of increase???????????? seems 2b mighty fast 2 me.... :o
The rent has not increased this year - if you paid £24 last year then that was after the Early Payment Discount of £4 had been taken off. It will be the same this year. The EPD and New Tenant Discount will not apply after this year.
The rents are due on 1 October, the last date for payment is 9 November and a £10 penalty will be charged for anyone paying after 9 November. People will only get a Notice to Quit if they fail to pay.
I know it will be hard for many people, I've already had lots coming to me since everyone received the letter from the council this week. In 2013 the biggest plots on our site will cost £75 for under age 60. They are currently £28. I have a feeling that more people will ask for their plots to be split, making them £50 instead.
I suppose in an Ideal World the fairest way would be to give concessions to unemployed etc. but that isn't going to happen now. :(
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I believe a loop hole exists that one can increase charges to cover increased costs so that a service is not running at a loss.
Could it be that the provider could claim that as a subsidy has been withdrawn, that has increased costs?
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While I agree that any large increase in rent is unacceptable (and trebbeling from £24 to £75 in a couple of years is too much too fast) we need to keep a sense of perspective too. Even at £75 pa you are paying £1.50 per week. The price of half a pint of been, 5 fags or a couple of cans of cola... or roughly one weeks JSA for the whole of the year. If that causes you to chuck up an allotment you aren't thinking straight. I can put almost that much petrol in my car in one filling!
How much do you spend on seeds/compost/tools/netting/ and so on... :-X
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On the other hand, the point of allotments is to give people a chance to grow stuff and add to the general wellbeing of the community.
But that is almost completely thwarted by people sitting on plots and not doing much .... because it is cheap to do so.
So putting up the price might encourage them to rethink. And you know turnover can have an upside. We've got people hanging on to plots for when they retire on the fear that if they give up, they will never get another plot. If people knew that they would only have to wait 1 year for a plot, they'd feel more secure about giving up when they just hadn't got the time to do anything.
And more than half of folk get their plots half price anyway. As my neighbour says: he gets 2 for the price of 1 !
Must admit, if I were on the council here, I would ramp up the rent and see what happens.
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I thought Allotment Law was quite 'prescriptive'? How have these councils managed to get around:
1) Rents can only be increased at the same rate as other leisure facilities (or are they facing massive increases too?)
2) You should receive 12 months notice of any increase.
Allotments Act 1950 S.10 is prescriptive in that a Council must charge what a tenant may reasonably be expected to pay so a Council isn't able to set a rent to cover it's expenses it can only set what's reasonable. I think saddad's point is strong support of the reasonableness of the increase, though the Council obviously got there by the wrong route.
1. You're alluding to the unreported case of Howard vs Reigate and Banstead BC, and I believe that the judgement was that the Council's charges can't discriminate between leisure services and can't ramp up rent to break even, so it's not exactly that there's a limit on any increase, but more that there's a limit on how much the Council can charge.
2. The Council have given 12 month's notice, and have gone the extra mile in laying out there scheme for the next few years too. There's no absolute requirement for any notice of an increase, it would depend on the tenancy agreement. If there isn't a rent review term then no increase is enforceable and the council would have to cancel the agreement which has a statutory minimum of 12 month's notice and offer a new one on new terms. If there is a rent review term that doesn't give long enough notice to quit without loss if you didn't like the increase then your option is to argue that the term is unfair under UTCCR 1999. But with all these things it can be increadibly difficult to get a council to do what's right if they simply don't care about that kind of thing
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On the other hand, the point of allotments is to give people a chance to grow stuff and add to the general wellbeing of the community.
But that is almost completely thwarted by people sitting on plots and not doing much .... because it is cheap to do so.
So putting up the price might encourage them to rethink. And you know turnover can have an upside. We've got people hanging on to plots for when they retire on the fear that if they give up, they will never get another plot. If people knew that they would only have to wait 1 year for a plot, they'd feel more secure about giving up when they just hadn't got the time to do anything.
And more than half of folk get their plots half price anyway. As my neighbour says: he gets 2 for the price of 1 !
Must admit, if I were on the council here, I would ramp up the rent and see what happens.
It saddens me to hear this. I've always expected allotmenteers help and support each other. As sites, and as a movement, our strength is our committment to one another, and that means supporting those who aren't as able to pay. If there are uncultivated plots then there is a process to address that, and it's a process best left to the site secretaries who make a careful judgement and balance all the factors. The price of renting a plot mustn't be used to make allotmenteering the exclusive preserve of the middle-aged middle class.
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It does not seem fair to me that people over 60 get a reduction in some areas whatever their circumstances and those under that age who are really struggling do not. Basically it means that the younger people are having to subsidise the older ones. But older people have much more opportunity to benefit from their allotments.
My state pension is arriving soon and I would feel it totally wrong that I should pay less than the young families on the site.
Perhaps they need to relax the rules a bit about selling excess produce.
My 5ish pole plot is £45 and I feel it is very good value indeed. As Saddad says not much more than a tank of petrol. And yes the seeds :P, fertilizer etc cost me more.
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^^ It saddens me that the "class" card has been played. I think the issue is that allotmenteers have got used to getting plots for a token rent and now we are squirming at the thought that we might have to pay as much as £2 per week!!! for our gardens.
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Good points Digeroo. Of course you're not obliged to accept the discount, but I guess a lot would. But I also don't like discounts where the allotmenteer has to prove how old she is, or that she doesn't have a job. That just seems demeaning. But as you say, it's important to remember that for any discount there are other allotmenteers paying more to cover it.
After last year's 47% increase Newbury Town Council are talking about introducing a 25% pensioner discount this year (divide and rule, right out of Machiavelli) - and the most likely way they'll do it is increase rent for everyone else by 33%!
I'm working on a charging structure for when Newbury becomes self-managed and I'm thinking about including a voluntary element. If you can afford it you make a £12 voluntary donation, and the management trust gets another 28% back from HMRC for everyone who's a basic rate tax-payer, and if for whatever reason you don't feel able to make the donation then you get an effective £12 discount without the indignity of explaining why you can't afford full cost. The pricing structure isn't flat, but for example the discount on an average plot would be 35% like this. More importantly, because we're self-managed all but the smallest plots would be substantially cheaper than Newbury Town Council currently charges.
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I must say I like the idea of the smaller plots being relatively cheaper, though people wil try and cirumvent that rule by plot 'sharing' or having part in the partners name etc.
I do agree about the problems of means testing. It has sometimes been my experinece that those argue the loudest for reductions are not always those who need it most.
One family always asked for an exception from charges for trips when my children were at school. Someone I know was pround of how she managed to weedle out of the charges. Yet she was always dressed in the latest fashions and hairdos and often went to the pub.
I like the idea of being able to tap into Gift Aid.
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Good points Digeroo. Of course you're not obliged to accept the discount, but I guess a lot would. But I also don't like discounts where the allotmenteer has to prove how old she is, or that she doesn't have a job. That just seems demeaning. But as you say, it's important to remember that for any discount there are other allotmenteers paying more to cover it.
After last year's 47% increase Newbury Town Council are talking about introducing a 25% pensioner discount this year (divide and rule, right out of Machiavelli) - and the most likely way they'll do it is increase rent for everyone else by 33%!
I'm working on a charging structure for when Newbury becomes self-managed and I'm thinking about including a voluntary element. If you can afford it you make a £12 voluntary donation, and the management trust gets another 28% back from HMRC for everyone who's a basic rate tax-payer, and if for whatever reason you don't feel able to make the donation then you get an effective £12 discount without the indignity of explaining why you can't afford full cost. The pricing structure isn't flat, but for example the discount on an average plot would be 35% like this. More importantly, because we're self-managed all but the smallest plots would be substantially cheaper than Newbury Town Council currently charges.
I must have missed you announcing you finally got the council to agree to selfmanagement. Thats a huge breakthrough. Im sure your site will go from strength to strength now. Well done.
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I must have missed you announcing you finally got the council to agree to selfmanagement. Thats a huge breakthrough. Im sure your site will go from strength to strength now. Well done.
Err, yes, that is still something of a work in progess. I think it would be fair to say there is not a snowball's chance in hell of the Council agreeing to self management and that they will use every dirty trick they can to frustrate even the debate. But that doesn't stop me putting together a plausible business plan. ;)
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Our 5 to 7 pole plots here in Redditch Worcs are £28.35 includes water charges, over 60 and other concessions (unemployed etc ) 50% discount (not water). Seem a fair rate, usually rises 30 odd P a year.
:)
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It saddens me to hear this. I've always expected allotmenteers help and support each other. As sites, and as a movement, our strength is our committment to one another, and that means supporting those who aren't as able to pay. If there are uncultivated plots then there is a process to address that, and it's a process best left to the site secretaries who make a careful judgement and balance all the factors. The price of renting a plot mustn't be used to make allotmenteering the exclusive preserve of the middle-aged middle class.
Well said mate.
I've just been through the mill getting allotments up and running despite some reluctant and deliberately obtuse councillors (and particularly the town clerk) doing all they could to delay it all or simply to bu**er it up. Heh, one of our committee members even had to go around to see one councillor personally to tell them to stop spreading malicious rumours about committee members' plans to grow illegal plants on the site. :o
Anyway, we've won, and we sign the lease agreement next Tuesday. The agreement we finally managed to hammer out gives us a 21-year lease initially, but with the proviso that the council cannot end the contract for any reason during the first five years other than by the association dissolving, at the end of which, and if the allotments are still running, the books are in good order, and the site is of benefit to the community, then the subject of statutory status will be revisited 'in a favourable light'...
So. Five years to show it is a going concern, then statutory status after that.
Job's a good-un. ;)
Plot prices will be about £25 a year for a full plot (Approximately 10metres by 28metres, or 300sq Yards), plus £2 for NSALG membership (And myth bless the NSALG for their advice... without which we'd still be arguing with the town clerk about statutory duty and what it really means.), and a one-off joining fee of a fiver that will help pay for keys etc....
Not sure any of this helps at all, but hey, I needed to tell somebody. ;)
Nigel.
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Hi Nigel and welcome to A4A.
Well done for getting your allotments sorted, it can't have been easy.
(You and Unwashed should form some sort of group for people having problems with their councils!)
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What I cannot understand is that 5 years ago our site had just 8-10 plots taken and there was no rise in rents.Now in the last 2 years we have approx 80 plots taken. This means that the Council is getting much more money than it did before so are they just milking the cow now it has become popular for folks to have an allotment.
Don't get me wrong I do think that even with the raised rents we are still getting a good deal when you take into account the excercise program and the lovely fresh and untreated food we eat.
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Well done Nigel B. It is great to hear that someone has got some new allotments up and running.
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Also glad to hear your site is up and running Nigel.
It makes me feel quite lucky with our council - OK they are not as "proactive" as they could be but at least they are not at war with us. It sounds like more transparency is needed in the system but so many councils fear it. We have a Questionnaire sent out to us and there is some honesty about the response of our council. After listing all the complaints from each site, the council guy does repond (though it may not be what we want to hear). Here is what he says about our site Alan Moss Road Phase 1:
Total plot rental income received from tenants for Alan Moss 1 for 08 – 09 approx £900
During the financial year 08 – 09 the Alan Moss 1 site used 19 skips at a cost of £2660
For the financial year 08 – 09 the cost of water used on Alan Moss 1 & 2 (no separate figure available for each of the 2 sites) was £716
Total cost of annual grounds maintenance operations (e.g. hedge cutting, grass flailing, site road maintenance, plumbing repairs, fence gate repairs, re-let plot rotavation ) for all 10 allotment sites in Loughborough managed by the Council is approx £8500 per year.
Approx. total rental income for the 10 allotment sites in Loughborough £5920
Approx. total expenditure for the 10 allotment sites in Loughborough £24650
(excluding administration costs)
He leaves it unsaid that they think they are spending quite enough on allotments compared to the rent they raise. But you have to say that this is a tiny tiny fraction of the councils total annual spend on social and leisure activities and it wouldn't hurt much to spend even twice as much. And have twice as many allotments.
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What were the 19 skips for.
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^^ ah yes, that is a very interesting can of worms.
Apparently, when it was decided that we could no longer have fires on the site, the council agreed to pay for a skip service from a local company. So our site (Alan Moss Phase 1) has 2 skips permantly on site.
But they are wildly abused, mostly by plot holders who bring rubbish from home - we can bring our cars on site and you see cars drive up to the skip, the boot open etc. But also people come on to the site and sling rubbish when they can.
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A very tricky subject. We pay the council rent and they provide us with the land. Everything else is up to us. So our rent per plot is low (£20 per 6-7 pole plot) and everyone pays the same.
The land would be worth vastly more to the council if it were developed and built on. With my council tax payer hat on I might think: why am I subsidising these people with allotments? There aren't enough allotments for the people that want them but the number of people wanting plots is relatively low compared to the total number of people in the area. So the few are being subsidised by the many, I think.
As an allotment holder I wouldn't mind paying considerably more than I do at the moment although £6-700 per annum is a bit steep - cheaper than membership of a golf club though. But there are loads of folk on my site that would have to give up their plots if they had to pay that much!!
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As an allotment holder I wouldn't mind paying considerably more than I do at the moment although £6-700 per annum is a bit steep.
Grawrc, that £100 per pole thing was some stupid scare-mongering from Newbury Town Council who were trying to pretend that the grow-your-own plots from Wyevale Garden Centres were actually self-managed council allotments. But for the sake of argument it would be interesting to know how much councils could possibly charge if they wanted to break even. I suspect Newbury Town Council may well be one of the least efficient councils in the country with a break-even rate of around £45 per pole.
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^^ ah yes, that is a very interesting can of worms.
Apparently, when it was decided that we could no longer have fires on the site, the council agreed to pay for a skip service from a local company. So our site (Alan Moss Phase 1) has 2 skips permantly on site.
But they are wildly abused, mostly by plot holders who bring rubbish from home - we can bring our cars on site and you see cars drive up to the skip, the boot open etc. But also people come on to the site and sling rubbish when they can.
there should be no need for either fires or skips on an allotment, ain't you lot heard of composting? everything else must have been transported to the site, so if folk took the non-compostable stuff home...........
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^^ lol .... just for you Tony, one of our skips (yes, there is a skip under there):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/neptune1308/100_3535Small.jpg)
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I don't think that the local council should be expected to provide skips. Most of this stuff should be recycled.
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I'd have most of that lot out and find a corner for it to attract some wild life. :( :( :(
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Don't you police your skips?!?
We've had a skip a year for the past two years - paid out of our own funds, as we're not a Council site - and the loading has been supervised with military precision.
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Well, I did see a fellow plotholder driving up to the skip last week. So I walked up to it on some pretext and when they started to unload stuff out of their boot, I said in a very quiet voice "you're not supposed to do that, you know. That's not what the skip is for".
So their rubbish went back into the boot (I had expected to be told to mind my own business) but now the couple aren't speaking to me.
There is no committee or anyone in charge. And also there is a culture of people doing what they like which would be difficult to change even if we did have someone.
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^^ lol .... just for you Tony, one of our skips (yes, there is a skip under there):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/neptune1308/100_3535Small.jpg)
most of that should be composted / shredded !
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We've got a mass of scrap metal and all sorts of things left from previous generations on the site. Clearing my plot alone took nine trips for a small lorry, which could just get down the lane. We've tried skips, we've tried having a dumping area for scrap metal which was then collected by a dealer. It's the same trouble every time; people bring household rubbish. Last time it was builders' waste.
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Just had this years bill 15ft by 60 ft £22.50 thats a half plot here. Don't no how that compares with other sites.
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£3.20 per rod, total of £37.60 this year
£3.50 per rod next year (11/12) :(
Loads of notice though ;)
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Just had this years bill 15ft by 60 ft £22.50 thats a half plot here. Don't no how that compares with other sites.
That's £6.80 per pole Tarus, well above average.
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Thanks Unwashed for working that out for me. No surprise there then, as we seem to pay through the nose for most things connected with the council.
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I see Swindon Borough Council charge £4.50 per pole (http://www.swindon.gov.uk/leisuresport/allotments.htm#plot_cost). Ah, I see - do they charge £22.50 for anything up to a 5 pole plot?
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Don't no to be honest Unwashed. Have never been able to get my head round this pole measure. It gives you the length not the width. Have been to other sites in the country and their plots always seem a lot bigger but are still classed as an half plot ??? ???
We dont received a seperate water bill thats included, so for less than 50 pence a week I don't feel I have room for complaint.
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FOI request to get the details?
They'll refuse, they have declared me to be a vexatious complainant. I agree that my questions are inconvenient, but that's not quite the same thing. I could appeal to the Information Commissioner of course, but that would take months. If what they say is true then I expect someone on here will have heard of it.
Unwashed, I have only just joined this forum but you and I seem to be travelling the same path.
I have to deal with a Parish Council who asked us to form a Society to negotiate with and then refused to talk to us as they didn't like the officials we elected.
I have now also been declared a "vexatious complainant" even though there is no such thing.
My "crime" was to request a meeting with the Chairman of my Parish Council, he ignored my request and declared me vexatious.
My understanding of the FOI is as below.
If you want to refuse using Section 14 (1) of the Freedom of Information Act please say so but remember you can only refuse a request as vexatious not a person as you appear to be trying to do. If you use this Section I will immediately request an internal review.
You can use Section 14 ( 2 ) against a person but only if they have made repeated requests for the same information which I haven’t.
My Parish Council have increased the rents for concessionary tenants such as OAP's from £5.50 to £30 for a half plot for new tenants even though they have no idea what the allotments cost as they keep no records of expenditure.
I went to their meeting tonight and they can't see what the problem is!
The Parish Clerk who in our case is full time appears to run the show and the Councillors do what they are told.
In December I sent in a perfectly reasonable letter, the clerk denied receiving it, some months later he agreed he had received it but "lost it" and has never apologised.
The Chairman is a prominent Conservative, so much for David Cameron and his "Big Society".
They refuse to meet us or listen to our point of view even though I have quoted the Community Engagement Strategy on the National Association of Local Councils website.
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Hi jules2, and welcome to A4A. I have to tell you I'm still chuckling as I write this - it's like meeting myself! Brother, if I can help in any way whatsoever, I will.
Seriously, I can just imagine the reception you got when you gave them the FoI thing. Wow, do they ever hate empowerment - yes, you know who you are!
Welcome to A4A. ;D
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Welcome to A4A Jules.
You certainly have a fight on your hands, reading your post is like reading something from Unwashed.
Long live Vexatious Complainants!
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Oh No!!!!! Not another one ;D ;D ;D
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In my first post I mentioned NALC Community engagement strategy which you can find on their website but this link indicates all three major parties support it.
http://www.nalc.gov.uk/
(http://www.nalc.gov.uk/)
I'm thinking of writing to the local associations of all three parties and light the blue touchpaper asking for their support :o
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Best of luck Jules
Keep the faith.
;D ;D ;D
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Wecome to A4A Jules. It looks like 'vexatious complainants' is spreading. Unwashed has been suffering from this affliction for some time and there appears to be no known cure. ;D ;D
I googled this expression and found that many local authorities have a policy about it. :o I think it may become a convenient way to try and ignore awkward questions. I think that you should ask for written details of why you have been given this title.
Do not let them grind you down.
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yeah keep on and on at them!
My plot is 20ft x 40ft? dont know how many poles that is?
We pay £18 a year which we think is great value but I think the council realises that it is a good thing that people grow their own and reduces road miles a lot and promotes healthy past-times and community spirit.
The waiting list has grown by an amazing amount over 7 years but we have an awards thing each year.
We normallty only get about 1 or 2 skips a year and could do with 2 or 3 really but although most of the stuff that goes in it are rubbish that has been used but worn out, some stuff is compostable which annoys me.
OK if it is the nasty weeds but the a brown bin at home would do for that, I use mums as we dont have one. Need more plots in the gatwick area as the demand is growing fast!
If rent was £500/year then the effort would hardly be worth the effort as you can only grow so much!
It should be to encourage healthy eating and sociability and fresh air and excercise.
low road miles and veg that actually contains some goodness rather than the mass produced stuff.
I thought the councils HAD to provide plots with certain demand in an area?
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I thought the councils HAD to provide plots with certain demand in an area?
They do.... but they don't... :o
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Wecome to A4A Jules. It looks like 'vexatious complainants' is spreading. Unwashed has been suffering from this affliction for some time and there appears to be no known cure. ;D ;D
I googled this expression and found that many local authorities have a policy about it. :o I think it may become a convenient way to try and ignore awkward questions. I think that you should ask for written details of why you have been given this title.
Do not let them grind you down.
The point is there is no such thing, it was exactly because of this type of obstructive behaviour from publically funded bodies that the FOI Act was brought in
The precis of the FOI I posted was not sent as I decided that I wasn't going to train them about FOI in my own time, instead I actually replied "thank you for your letter the time limit under the FOI expires on the 26th October" and guess what he replied.
A person can only be vexatious if they ask for the same thing over and over again.
If I ever meet the person who drafted the Act I will buy them a drink as they anticipated exactly how organisations would try to blanket ban people asking inconvenient questions
I wish I could UTube the Estates Meeting held on Monday, when I spoke a councillor complained that I should have written in first so they had time to consider the points I was raising.
She was sitting next to the Chairman who had complained about me writing in all the while and said the staff had been instructed to ignore all but lawful requests from me ??? But he didn't say a word.
Previously the Clerk got a letter from me in advance of a meeting and said " I'll tell him his letter doesn't merit a response" not realising I was sitting there.
The Chairman said so far it had cost £351.78 to reply to me but oddly they have 110 plots and have no idea what they cost to run as they keep no records.
I was tempted to ask for a breakdown of the cost under the FOI but I don't want to score cheap points I just want myself and my fellow allotment holders to be treated with respect.
But the FOI does not really help if the council refuse to meet us or allow us to have any involvement at all in the running of our allotments.
But Big Society and the NALC Community Engagement will.