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Produce => Pests & Diseases => Topic started by: Digeroo on June 08, 2010, 10:03:57

Title: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Digeroo on June 08, 2010, 10:03:57

Having a bit of a run in with contaminated manure again.  Can not find anything about the effect on brassicas.  Can anyone tell me if they are affected.

The great website Muck in the Muck which listed the susceptible plants has disappeared iunfortunately.

Only had a problem with beans last year but this year seems to be affecting the courgettes.  Though they seem to recover very quickly when moved.  I have found a new test which is quicker than beans, fat hen is affected and so this is a much cheaper and quicker test though is not as good as the broad beans at very low concentrations.

Lots of people have had a major problem with potatoes.

I have also noticed that there is a very minor anount of effect on sone broad beans whihc have not had manure though the land has been thoroughly peed on by pigs.  Looks like it is getting into the feed stuffs in general.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: froglets on June 08, 2010, 10:23:39

Hi,

We found that brassicas grew inordinately well in contaminated ground.  We'd eaten a few thinking we'd cracked prizewinning cabbage growing before we knew the ground was contaminated.

Our potato crop was poor but we got some.

So far, in the third season, the tilling and fluffing up of the ground to expose as much as poss to air seems to work and the potatos we have in what was a contaminated bed are now growing cleanly and strong.

Sorry to hear you're still suffering.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Digeroo on June 08, 2010, 10:33:22

It was my own fault I should have been more careful, much of it came with my started manure pile on my new piece of allotment.  I have planted a load of sweet corn but bow much do you want.  So  have been planting out some brassicas.  

Not totally happy about having the stuff in my brassicas but not sure what else to do.

Many thanks for your response.

I have found one other benefit there is no bindweed coming up in the contaminated areas from last year. 

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: moonbells on June 09, 2010, 10:18:53

Quote from: Digeroo on June 08, 2010, 10:03:57

The great website Muck in the Muck which listed the susceptible plants has disappeared iunfortunately.

Have you tried putting its address into http://www.archive.org/web/web.php (The wayback machine)?

It is an archive of old webpages. Good way to find stuff which is no longer live.

moonbells

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: sunloving on June 09, 2010, 14:04:20

Hi
Sorry to hear that youve been having problems
I had a bad dose about three years ago now. I found Sue Garrents websites very useful heres the link.

I would just bear in mind that this herbicide persists in the plant matter and so will be in the crops you grow in it - for example potaoes harvested on contaminated ground grow into deformed plants the next season becuase they contain sufficent herbicide to deform them even 6 months later. I chucked away everything that grew even where we got tomatoes to grow to maturity.

Try this website for lots of other info.

http://glallotments.co.uk/ACManure.aspx
x sunloving

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: redimp on June 12, 2010, 09:22:04

Some of my potatoes look like they are contaminated but they are in ground that has never been near any contaminated manure and the manure they had with them is supposed to be very clean.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: realfood on June 14, 2010, 19:33:49

Brassicas do indeed seem unaffected by aminopyralid. Does this mean that they do not take up the weedkiller?
Sweetcorn, being a grass, probably takes up aminopyralid and stores it in the fibres, but is not adversely affected.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: realfood on June 14, 2010, 23:39:13

My potato bed was affected last year and I was concerned about conserving my own heritage seed potatoes.
I am pleased to say that my saved potato seed has not been affected this year and is growing normally.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Tee Gee on June 15, 2010, 14:58:45

As many of you will know I have been affected 'big time' this year.

I went down the plots this morning and surveyed the site to find how many people have been affected and there is at least seven. Which is not surprising when you consider we had sixteen loads of the stuff delivered last october.

I know this because I took on the responsibilty of organising the deliveries.

I had a word with the farmer I sourced the 'muck' from and he did admit he had sprayed his hay fields (silage) but with what he couldn't tell me at the time but I got the impression that he had used a 'safe' material if there is such a thing.

I contacted him again last night to see if I could get any further information from him.

I mentioned the loss of my potatoes to him and he says his are OK. He spread his muck in February and planted out later.

This concurs with the general advice we get from the 'experts' ::) about not mucking and planting at more or less the same time.

It also fits in with my experience as the stock (including potatoes) that is in the beds that I prepared last October appears to be OK but the stock that is in beds that were prepared in April/May don't seem to be.

Add to this I never prepare my tunnel & greenhouse beds till spring simply to do so would mean the 'muck' would dry up and be virtually useless in regards to moisture retention.

Guess what! Yes!! the beans,tomatoes and Peppers in the tunnel have succumbed to the disease. The stuff in my other greenhouse are not showing signs of anything at the moment but only time will tell.

On speaking with the farmer further I have found another piece of information.

The RHS have told me that the following brands of weedkiller that Dow Agrosciences' produce and subsequently been banned are Forefront, Pharoah & Banish.

This year the  farmer went to get his favourite weedkiller only to find that it is not marketed any more so it would appear the ban has worked good you might say!

But wait for it;..........Dow Agrosciences have a new product on the market namely 'Pastor' which when you read the small print (through a magnifying glass) yes it is basically the same product/formula being sold under a different name but they have covered themselves in the small print this time! >:(

So nothing new there then! Some of you may recall I had a similar experience with Armillatox when it was reclassified I always used it as a 'fungicide' then because of the Euro zone licenses being so expensive the re-classified it as a 'cleaner'.

When I approached 'Monsanto' as to what the difference was they told me it was the same folmula as before, suggesting that I could use it for all the protection I used before the re-classification.

So again; not quite the same as the weedkiller but another  product going under a new name.

John Miller has sent me an article from Canada giving an extensive overview on Aminopyralid and why it is banned in Canada. Thanks John I hope to get round to reading it once I have finished this article.

What I have been unable to establish as yet, although I might find this when I read the Canadian literature is; If the affected does produce the edible part we grow it for will it be fit for consumption.

I have written again to the RHS to clarify this point!

I am going to Gardeners World Live tomorrow so I hope to have a talk 'face to face' with RHS/NVS/NSALG and any other such group that might listen to me and see what their take is on the subject.

As you might have guessed I am quite incensed about all this and the way gardeners are being treated these days.

For example 'Compost Quality'

As a gardener of forty years plus I have never seen so much crap about and selling at grossly inflated prices to boot >:(

This reduction in peat use is comendable on the one hand but hey! please let us know what you are fobbing us off with in its place.

I bought 6 bags of 'Growell Potting compost this year and on first impressions it is a lovely dark even textured material untill you wet it!

I have literally lost hundreds of plants this year and the remainder are of very poor quality.

When you remove the plant from the pot/cell you expect to see a lovely rootball..........NO!! not in this case; what you find is that the compost or should I say sludge (reminiscent of wet coal dust) falls off the spindly root system to leave a very poorly plant.

So again we are being conned into buying stuff that appears to have no British standard or quality control.

Then don't get me on to the loss of seeds in a packet or the demise of some chemicals which I saw as 'plant medicine' where in most cases I applied them when the plant was poorly.

Unlike the commercial people who seemed to use it willy nilly resulting in the banning of some very good safe products that provided you treated them with the respect they deserved.

In other words I treated my plants like any doctor would treat me, i.e. he/she gave me medicines at a dosage suited to my ailment.

Now my plants cant have any of these 'controlled' substances but companies like DOw can put them into a situation where I have no control.

I think I'll form a new protest group and name it; 'T'GGRO'! The Great Gardener rip off.

I think I had better close there before my blood pressure rises any higher!

Sorry for the rant but thats just how I feel today so please excuse my intolerance! Tg

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: realfood on June 15, 2010, 19:08:25

Information from my web page :- The Health and Safety executive have confirmed that vegetables that have been grown in ground contaminated with aminopyralid, are safe to eat. See their update information at http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2480

Many growers, to be on the safe side, may choose to avoid eating vegetables grown in ground contaminated with aminopyralid.

Interestingly, Dow themselves so do not eat affected vegetables.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: realfood on June 15, 2010, 19:18:05

Tee Gee, to help your blood pressure, do what I did last year and write to your  MP!!
 Mine turned out to be a government minister at the time and did pursue the matter on my behalf. I was trying to get the temporary ban on the use of aminopyralid, continued but as you know this was not successful. Dow is very powerful, but the more letters that the Minister has to answer, the more trouble it causes to the agricultural lobby.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Digeroo on June 15, 2010, 19:45:07

I am sorry that you are having a problem TeeGee you are normally so proud of your gardening.  It is so frustrating to see everything growing into misshapen miserable specimens.  My best advice at the moment is to try and water with lime free water.   I had some plants grow through the problem last year but this year cannot reproduce the effect.  I have been watering copiously and this is proving totally disasterous.   Which is why I am beginning to suspect that lime adds to the effect.  I also have broad beans which started showing problems when they were more than 4 ft tall.  I am sure by that time their roots must have been in the manure for some considerable time.  It was only when I watered them that the problems started.  

I have started to plant things up the paths between the rows.

I wrote to my MP about it and a lot of good it did - not. >:(

I now have lots and lots of sweet corn and brassicas but rather wary about the prospect of eating them, though realise that I have no idea if it is in supermarket cabbages.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Digeroo on June 15, 2010, 20:26:21

The reintroduction of Aminopyralid was supposed to have considerable stewardship regulations attached.  I understood that users were going to be expected to sign some kind of agreement which stated that they had read and inwardly digested the restrictions for use of the product including preventing the escape of any manure.  I will look back over the posts last year and find the references to the body which recommended the reintroduction of the product.  I feel that we need to notify them of every incident of transgressions to the stewardship.  Unfortuneately they never published the exact terms of this stewardship. 

It is still worth growing beans on manure to check but as I have said I have incidents where the beans get to some considerable size before showing symptoms.  Do you have alkaline soil /water TeeGee?

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: realfood on June 15, 2010, 20:32:14

Digeroo, I think that the reason that your broad beans were 4 ft tall before becoming afflicted when you watered them, is due to it being only then that the conditions were right to maximise the breakdown of the grass fibers in the manure. See my previous explanation of the process involved.

"The rate that it affects plants probably  depends on how suitable the soil conditions are for the breakdown of the grass fibers by the soil bacteria. For instance in dry conditions like this year, it will take longer for the bacteria to get to work. Warmth and moisture will hasten the process.
The reason why some of the first leaves of affected plants look normal, is that the aminopyralid has not been released as it is still locked up in the grass fibres. As the soil bacteria get to work on the contaminated manure and breaks down the remains of the grass fibers, aminopyralid is released to do the damage to potatoes, peas, beans, tomatoes, lettuce, carrots, rasps in particular."

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: realfood on June 15, 2010, 20:48:49

Some of the general details of the stewardship requirements are here http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2010/04/21/120885/Comeback-for-aminopyralid-herbicides.htm and here http://www.dowagro.com/uk/aminopyralidsuspension.htm

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Digeroo on June 15, 2010, 21:05:20

It may have been too cold the BB were sown in February,  But we are having all sorts of interesting effects.  Allotments which shared piles of manure one which is devasted and the next hardly affected.  Crops with problems which have not been manured this year and which grew sensitive crops last year.

In many ways the manure was the same as last year and then there were only a few pockets of problem.   Why is the devastation so widespread this year.   My first idea was the the weather was a contributary factor it has been much hotter and very very dry so I felt that perhaps there was not enough moisture allow the bacteria to breakdown the Aminopryalid.  But this did not fit the facts because all the allotments have had the same weather.  Though those at one end of the site are damper these certainly are showing less problem.  But we have one strip which goes, very bad, no problem, very very bad, a bit of a problem, a little, none, bad, little, bad,  Last uear there were a few potato plants here and there with a few leaves with a bit of a problem and this soon grew out and most people did not even notice that they had been contaminated, this year only a few people have escaped major destruction to their potato crops.  

Looks like your manure supplier did not do things right,  it would be interesting to find out where he got the bottle, but I expect he will suddenly suffer from major amnesia, especially now the label has fallen off the bottle.  But the fact this has occurred goes to prove that the stewardship will not work,  People simply do not read the instructions.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: colt on June 15, 2010, 23:21:33

In my opinion for what its worth is this. If a farmer uses the weedkiller on his fields then he must inform whoever he sells the hay,silage to that he's sprayed and that no manure from the animals can be sold or given away. This way it can be traced back to whoever sold the stuff and a very large fine imposed. So if i bought from a local farmer and the manure is contaminated he must prove that he bought in feed/bedding without being told that the fields have been sprayed this way there is a link.

I hope the above makes sense

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Eristic on June 16, 2010, 01:24:36

Dear oh dear oh dear.

How many times have I banged on about the need to test every batch of manure brought onto your sites? Quite frankly I get a bit tired of constantly reading about all your self inflicted ails when you totally ignore all good advice.

I devised a simple but efficient test which I published in this forum while Dow, the perpetrators of this mess was still denying that their product could be at fault. 2 years later they adopted it as their own method of testing. The test works so why do you all continue to ignore the problem. This poison manure is not going to simply go away, it is going to get far worse.

Therefore, I will say this one last time:

It is your duty and your responsibility to test each and every load of manure or manure enhanced compost  prior to deployment.

Test it. Test it and test it again.

One last point: Do not waste time asking farmers if they have broken the law. It will come as a big surprise to many of you here but the farmer will lie. The onus is on you to assume the manure is toxic until you have proved it to be otherwise.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: grannyjanny on June 16, 2010, 06:52:13

I've just read the link put up by realfood & it says that the aminopyralid can only be used on grazing pasture for sheep & cattle not when the pasture is for silage or hay. If the sheep & cattle eat the from that field surely there is every chance of their pooh being contaminated & therefore getting into the manure, or am I talking rubbish?

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: redimp on June 16, 2010, 17:47:09

Quote from: Eristic on June 16, 2010, 01:24:36

Dear oh dear oh dear.

How many times have I banged on about the need to test every batch of manure brought onto your sites? Quite frankly I get a bit tired of constantly reading about all your self inflicted ails when you totally ignore all good advice.

I devised a simple but efficient test which I published in this forum while Dow, the perpetrators of this mess was still denying that their product could be at fault. 2 years later they adopted it as their own method of testing. The test works so why do you all continue to ignore the problem. This poison manure is not going to simply go away, it is going to get far worse.

Therefore, I will say this one last time:

It is your duty and your responsibility to test each and every load of manure or manure enhanced compost  prior to deployment.

Test it. Test it and test it again.

One last point: Do not waste time asking farmers if they have broken the law. It will come as a big surprise to many of you here but the farmer will lie. The onus is on you to assume the manure is toxic until you have proved it to be otherwise.

Possibly because your aggressive and sanctimonious attitude in every post you make means that people can't be bothered to read it.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: realfood on June 16, 2010, 19:43:30

Grannyjanny, I think that the idea is that farmers are now  not allowed to sell manure off their farm if they have used aminopyralid on their grass.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: froglets on June 17, 2010, 10:31:16

Our site problem came about because a local horse owner had a huge shed of well rotted muck that he was desperate to get rid of and our site finding out about it was a godsend to him.  The muck was free and for the first two years black gold.  We told him about the problems & he took away the free muck sign, but I noticed recently it was back out again.  In his case, he's not the farmer and not selling it, although, his concience clearly doesn't bother him.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Digeroo on June 17, 2010, 17:49:37

But to some extent the test does not work since I grew broad beans in patches of manure and they seemed to be fine.  Until they were four feet tall.  But whick time I had used the manure for other things.

I have lost a few potatoes and had to move a few things round but some of the people on our site have had total devastation.  Since the manure is more or less the same as last year there is no explanation as to why it is a problem this year and not last.  There appears to be another factor at work and I have not yet identified it. 

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: realfood on June 17, 2010, 19:26:43

Sadly, the "bean" test is all that we have got as lab testing is far too expensive. However, I think that the "bean" test will give quicker results than you got provided that the test manure plus soil, is warm and moist to get maximum effect of the soil bacteria.
I started off a test today on 3 year old aminopyralid manure that has been lying around, to see how lethal it still is.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Trevor_D on June 17, 2010, 20:29:58

I've stayed out of this one so far, but I think it's time I put in my twopennorth:

Our site was the first in the country to contact Defra because we had been affected - a full year before anyone else noticed or mentioned it.

When Ceres posted photos on here a year later I was able to identify the problem immediately. Because we were all concerned and all supportive of each other, within a fortnight the chemical (aminopyralid) and the manufacturer (Dow) had been identified, questions had been asked both in the House & the media and the licence was suspended.

Because of lobbying, the ban has now been been lifted, but with certain provisos. But that does not mean the problem has gone away.

There are two worrying things about the messages posted so far on this thread:

1 - Several of you have noticed - as we have on our site - that the problem is rather marked this year; there is no apparent pattern, so areas that were "safe" last season aren't this season; new manure - which shouldn't contain the chemical - is as likely to have an effect as old manure, or even no manure. The problem is obviously very complex and needs accurate reporting for us to get to the bottom of it.

2 - Ranting on, and personal attacks don't help. (That's why Ceres doesn't post any more.) Neither does uninformed opinion. So let's accurately report! (It worked last time!)

This is a problem. We need to deal with it. We're not out to get anyone - just to sort out the mess, be able to give advice to our members and get on with the job of growing things!

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Tee Gee on June 17, 2010, 23:39:33

Quote

This is a problem. We need to deal with it. We're not out to get anyone - just to sort out the mess, be able to give advice to our members and get on with the job of growing things!

Well put Trevor!

I was very angry when I found the predicament I was in( hence the slanging statement/s) , particularly having read  all the correspondance you mentioned that happened last year.

 I honestly thought the matter had resolved itself but apparently not, and to find this stuff coming out again under another name really angered me.

This coupled with the bad batch of potting compost I had received I was at an all time low.

I have lost over 25% of my bedding plants(around 250) and about 10% of my veg plants (around 100) due to this compost (Growell) then to have my potatoes affected by Aminopyralid I think it was not surprising that I ranted off and for that I apologise!

So what do you suggest we do now?

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: sunloving on June 17, 2010, 23:54:00

Dear Tee gee
really sorry to hear that youve had probelms with aminopyralid damage
as you know our dahlias were wiped out three years ago by this chemical

I would recomend you do the following
1. report it to the pesticides people http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/
2. report it to dow through the manure matters website
3. insist that dow come and remove the contaminated manure( you cannot dump it at the tip or on site as the leachate also has a dmaging effect
4. write to your mp
5. get rid of what you can, where its dug in dig these places over regularly, plant the few things that dont get dmaged such as sweet corn and brassicas or give it over to a grass green manure for the year (grasses or monocots dont seem to be effected) .
6. Next year you will probably have the smae symptoms but they will be non leathal. I wouldnt eat anything from these plants.
7. never trust manure again , or hay or straw becuase despite what it says on the container famers will use herbicides for whatever they want to becuase there is no enforcement and they dont want a whole steaming pile of toxic waste hanging around and therefore maybe dont tell or recall what the label says about manure from sprayed land

the first few are imporatnt becuase one of the reasons it was relicesned is becuase DOw claimed that very few people were affected becuase only a few of us a. realised what it was (thanks to ceres and others on this site) b. wrote to dow/mps or the pesticides people to complain.

Its a horrible thing to have happen and it opens your eyes about the role of big business in the destruction of our enviornment and what gets me the most is that this age old link between organic growing and horses is now bricken for ever and non of us can afford to be less than vigilant or trust chemical companies such as dow (also watch out for dow reps posting in these topics).
good luck with it all.
best wishes
x sunloving

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: realfood on June 18, 2010, 21:30:07

According to another gardening forum, Dow put out the following press release yesterday :-

Reintroduction of aminopyralid products will not lead to more manure problems

Aminopyralid herbicides have been re-introduced this year to help grassland farmers deal with difficult to control weeds but with tight controls to prevent problems with manure management.

Aminopyralid herbicides are the most effective solutions to control dock, thistle, nettle, and buttercup infestations in grassland. To ensure that their use does not lead to a repeat of the issues seen previously, their availability is now tightly controlled with a significantly amended label and a stewardship scheme which ensures farmers are aware of the implications for subsequent manure management. The herbicides cannot be used on grassland destined for hay and silage nor on grassland grazed by horses. This year sales are restricted to Scotland, South West England and Northern Ireland.

There have been some incidents this year of manure containing aminopyralid ending up on gardens and allotments.

“This is disappointing and upsetting for those affected,” said Dow AgroSciences principal biologist Andy Bailey. “Although of small comfort, we would reassure anyone affected that this manure has not come from use this season under the new controls. It is a reflection of manure generated from past treatment and kept in heaps for more than a year. Also, the past long winter means old stocks of forage will have been consumed on livestock farms.”

The new restriction in aminopyralid use will mean any manure returns immediately to pasture where it will cause no harm and cannot leave the farm. The stringent use restrictions are explained in detail to every professional farmer who wants to buy a product and a written confirmation of understanding must be completed.

Dow AgroSciences’ advice to concerned farmers or gardeners remains the same – to check carefully the provenance of any manure being used where sensitive crops, such as potatoes, peas, beans and carrots, may be grown.

“If anyone supplying manure cannot state with certainty that no aminopyralid-based product (sold as Forefront, Pharaoh or Banish) was used on the forage from which the manure resulted, then it is best not to accept any supply,” says Mr Bailey. “For anyone who has manure and is concerned, please contact us through our dedicated website http://www.manurematters.co.uk .This site also contains detailed information and frequently asked questions for gardeners, horse owners and professional grassland farmers.”

Have a good laugh or cry!!

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Jeannine on June 18, 2010, 22:22:05

I have absolutely nothing to add  to the scientific data or personal experience  of this topic, cos I have neither,but I  want to say this.

It sounds so dreadful and demoralising so much that it is like reading a horror story.

I sincerely feel that all of you who have been affected need a huge compliment for having the morale left to even inform us by quoting  articles etc  and  then battling  the big bods while your stuff is perishing around you. Most folks would buckle under something a lot less than this, it would have finished me..a good rant is not only natural it is bloody necessary. Frankly I think you all blooming marvelous.

I can offer no support other than my good wishes that it will be over ASAP and it is good to see most of you supporting each other and  sticking together to do what you can. My admiration is beyond description,that you can cope and try to help others through this nightmare.

What more can I say..it is a unbelievable situation that should never happen again.

Sincerely XX Jeannine

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Digeroo on June 19, 2010, 10:13:33

This is totally my personal opinion and I am working on it further but I am beginning to believe that the presence of calcium carbonate somehow makes the effects of aminopyralid more potent.  Those areas which have been watered seem to be much worse.  Last year we had the same manure and there were few spottable problems on potatoes and a few pockets of problems in beans.

Last year most of the problems grew out and the plants appeared fine.  This year I have some beans which show the problem 4 ft high and french beans which have bands of problem going up the plant.  Some peoples potatoes have begun to unfurl gradually and others are continuing to be tightly furled.   Since this year is drier than last there is a lot more watering going on.

I have begun watering a few plants only with rainwater and they are beginning to recover.   

I wrote a lot of emails last year in an attempt to get the ban continued I felt utterly devasted that it is available again.  I am even more worried that I might be buying in contaminated produce.  Since brassicas do not show a problem it will be impossible to tell whether crops have been subjected to it.   

I think that it is important that we hold Dow as responsible for damage as BP.

I understand the stuff is banned in Canada and I hope that for you Jeannine that it remains that way.  Dow seem to have been very persuasive here.

Title: Re: Aminopyralid and brassicas
Post by: Tee Gee on June 19, 2010, 14:27:00

Quote

“If anyone supplying manure cannot state with certainty that no aminopyralid-based product (sold as Forefront, Pharaoh or Banish) was used on the forage from which the manure resulted, then it is best not to accept any supply,” says Mr Bailey.

Let me pick the bones of this statement!

If anyone supplying manure cannot state with certainty

I know the farmer I deal with is not the sharpest knife in the box and I don't think he would have read the small print in his last application, he has now, now that I have put him in the picture!

But will other farmers do so.

Then there is the 'potential tax fiddle' I wouldn't be surprised if farmers don't declare the income they get from the sale of manure.

For instance I handed my supplier £280 last year for all the loads that came on to our plot, will he have declared this  ??? ::)

So the fact that they can be cutting them selves out of nice little earner I don't think they will volunteer infomation on the manures content unless they have to  8)

I won't hold my breath awaiting a reply to the next question;

Does your manure contain the aminopyralid-based products sold as Forefront, Pharaoh or Banish?

I suppose my supplier can because he does not use any of the above products simply because he could not buy them now that thet are banned!

But he can buy 'Pastor' which is a similar product.

Yes I think the problem is going to be with us for some time yet!

Particularly when you think the supermarkets grind the  price of milk down,

the farmer tries to cut his feeding bill to compensate for this,

the chemical companies want to help the farmers

but no mention of what is going to happen to the ever increasing 'Grow Your Own' brigade that the politicians are encouraging?

I am reasonably lucky in a sense; I know what to expect from my supplier!




This whole subject has got me thinking elsewhere namely potting compost!

Emphasis is now on cut the use of peat!

Do not use peat based compost use alternatives!

Now what is in the alternatives?

Councils are composting more but what are they composting?

For instance I do not place diseased vegetable matter in my compost heap but what do 'Joe Public' put in the composting skip when they visit the council tip?

Is it diseased or not?

Do the council sell their compost to potting compost suppliers?

So I ask the question again; What is in the alternative composts we buy?

For instance; I wish I knew what is in a product named 'Growell' ?

I have retired from work and I am seriously thinking of retiring from allotmenteering.

Perhaps I might just grow enough from my home made compost and 'b****r the lot of them!

Then the seed issue might come into it  ;) ;D we don't get as many in the packet as we used to  ::)

Ah!! gardening is not what it used to be :-\ :'(

OK folks I think I am finished with the subject

So thanks to all who have put their tuppenceworth in, I have learned a lot!  but sadly its something I could have done without but for the circumstances.....Thanks again; Tg