Allotments 4 All
General => Top Tips => Topic started by: Dirty Digger on March 26, 2010, 16:47:46
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Hi fellow gardeners.
I'm new to this forum so forgive me if i'm going over old ground ('scuse the pun), however, I couldn't find any relevant info in my search.
The title of this thread says it all....How do I make Fish, Blood and Bone. It's a seemingly simple question, however, I would like to know the pitfalls as well as any methods someone may be able to impart.
Like most carnivores, I tend to throw away the bones from any meat I buy, so would like to use them in the garden, seeing as they are a good source of nutrient that would otherwise go to landfill.
Your help would be most appreciated.
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You'd need something pretty hefty to gring the bones up into bonemeal. I don't know whether there's any effective way to turn them into fertiliser. Whole bones will just sit in the soil indefinitely, uness you have very strange soil conditions indeed.
If you pressure-cook them long enough, you get liquid which is thick with gelatin and juices - excellent soup base - and the bones go crumbly. That might be one way.
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As Robert says you will require a hefty crusher.
The only place I have ever come across one is in a crematorium!
As I recall the mix is made as follows;
Fish; Is the remains that are pulverised after filleting.
Blood; Is abotoir blood that has been drained from animals and dried, or mixed with a powder matrix e.g. lime
The bone; is as you have guessed;
It is animal bones that have been pulverised
So unless you have access to a pulverisor/crusher I would just leave it to the fertiliser producers.
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thanks for the swift replies....i realise that large firms have all the equipment already but i'd still like to see if I can do something similar myself.
Do you have any knowledge on ratios?
Also, I suppose you have to clean the bones before use, so I suppose boiling would be the most obvious way to do this.
The one thing that i'm unsure of is, does boiling not turn bone into glue? Would this not be bad for soil?
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(http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/Images/blood-bag.jpg)
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(http://evanescentthoughts.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/nemo_4.jpg)
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(http://images.halloweencostumeideas.com/a_jumbo_caveman_bone.jpg)
+ big hammer
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At this price I hardly thinkit's worth it!
http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/Fertilisers/Wilko-Fish-Blood-And-Bone-15kg/invt/0274757?htxt=vyMTQiKtwuW2cgX2kiifgHXCBhBIbRFEHE2KINsmFE%2FPbuVQmxd2q4a5pYeRsQ8XNymqvEaLDqa%2B%0AbK8Bwd73cA%3D%3D (http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/Fertilisers/Wilko-Fish-Blood-And-Bone-15kg/invt/0274757?htxt=vyMTQiKtwuW2cgX2kiifgHXCBhBIbRFEHE2KINsmFE%2FPbuVQmxd2q4a5pYeRsQ8XNymqvEaLDqa%2B%0AbK8Bwd73cA%3D%3D)
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The glue is basically gelatine. It's protein,and it rots. Or you can turn it into soup.
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At this price I hardly thinkit's worth it!
http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/Fertilisers/Wilko-Fish-Blood-And-Bone-15kg/invt/0274757?htxt=vyMTQiKtwuW2cgX2kiifgHXCBhBIbRFEHE2KINsmFE%2FPbuVQmxd2q4a5pYeRsQ8XNymqvEaLDqa%2B%0AbK8Bwd73cA%3D%3D (http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/Fertilisers/Wilko-Fish-Blood-And-Bone-15kg/invt/0274757?htxt=vyMTQiKtwuW2cgX2kiifgHXCBhBIbRFEHE2KINsmFE%2FPbuVQmxd2q4a5pYeRsQ8XNymqvEaLDqa%2B%0AbK8Bwd73cA%3D%3D)
My interest isn't affected by price, I actually want to know ratios and preparation methods and any pitfalls I may come into. I would like to recycle all my old food bones etc, rather than send them to landfill.
If anyone has any other information I may find useful, how about posting that instead of stating the obvious.
Tee Gee and Robert Brenchley's answers were at least educational and i'm sure there's yet more to learn.
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Welcome Dirty Digger to the forum. I suppose that it frustrating to through away something of value. Our bones go to recycling they are collected in a separate food bin.
I managed to get a 25kg bag for £10 from a horticultural supplier. I also think that a pressure cooker might sort out the bones, but where are you going to get the blood from?
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I have a Bokashi composter & you can put bones in that & they rot down in the compost bin.
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Welcome Dirty Digger to the forum. I suppose that it frustrating to through away something of value. Our bones go to recycling they are collected in a separate food bin.
I managed to get a 25kg bag for £10 from a horticultural supplier. I also think that a pressure cooker might sort out the bones, but where are you going to get the blood from?
Someone has already suggested an abbotoir, which is obviously going to prove to be the easiest source, seeing as I don't have any of my own animals to slaughter (other than the neighbours cats....and i'm not that cruel).
So I suppose i'd like to know if there are any preferred ratios or indeed other knowledge that someone has on the subject.
It seems that other than stating the obvious, not too many people have clear insights into what makes good fish blood and bone.
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I have a Bokashi composter & you can put bones in that & they rot down in the compost bin.
Now I like the idea of the Bokashi composter, though I still want to make my own blood fish and bone, however, this would be brilliant for everything else you can't throw in the compost bin.
Actually, just looked at the price of the wheat bran stuff that is needed for the Bokashi composter....£23 for 4 kg.....admittedly it's 4 months worth or thereabouts but seeing as my main aim is to save money, it's definitely not for me.
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well done crisscross lmao but my grand daughter didn't like what you were suggesting for nemo
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I don't think you will be able to purchase the blood. ;)
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You could use dried blood.
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I read instructions on how to make bokashi starter on the internet somewhere. It used rice water and skimmed milk.
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You could get road kill animals, I use to get a rabbit each year to feed my grape vine worked wonders got lovely fruit.
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Dirty digger am getting a little worried.
are you married by any chance. You do seem determined to make your own. ;D
LOL Only kidding good luck in your quest.........
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You dont its safer,easier,and more hygenic to buy it.
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Ok..here is some info...
Bone meal; commonest way prosessing animal bones for bone meal is to "steam them to remove fat and to sterilize. The bones are crushed to a fine powder. Unsterilized bone meal is alleged to carry a health risk and is not as effective as the sterilised product."
Dried Blood; "A waste product from slaughter houses it is consentrated by a drying process at moderate temperatures leaving a familiar backish red product."
Fish meal; "produced from fish waste and other sources of fish which are unsuitable for human consumption."
as how to actually make it in home environment...well let me dig in to my library and get back to it..some old books may have some recipies..
..but be prepared to be homeless.. ;)you are going to make stink.....
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as a alternative for fish meal...
Fish emulsion: Put fish waste into foodprosessor and make fine mess, boil it untill gloopy...
"when diluted with water, 1:100, it is an excellen liquid organic fertilizer. Its nitrogen release is very gentle which makes it ideal for young plants"..
...as long as you (family&neighbours) don't mind the pong.. ;D
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Old books are quite vague with their instructions but this is what I have come accross..
For bone meal...boil any meat and fat off, when clean.. steam to sterilize (might take couple of hours)....then you dry you bones...and when they are dry they should have become brittle and ready for crushing and grinding into powder....
Blood meal....boil down to concentrated mess..almost paste...dry/ bake into a cake...crush and grind into powder....
other interesting note: young bones generally contain less phosphorus and more nitrogen than older bones
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So now you just have to get some old bones...saw them smaller to fit into pot...steal your otherhalf's cooking utensils...stink the house out...and beg for mercy that you family do not evict or leave you....
..oh and if you get as far as crushing and grinding....put bones in bag and place it between 2 metal sheet and run over couple of times with car...
then back into kitchen again...borrow the pestle and mortar, and with a little elbow grease you should have yourself nice bonemeal... ;D
...still interested of the idea..?...I bet I only got you thinking even more how to do it.. ::)
It can be done..
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..should we have this thread in recipe section.. ;D ;D
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;D ;D ;D..."what do we do with our left overs"... ;D ;D ;D
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;D ;D..Oh Im tired, this one hour change is getting to me... ;D ;D...back to bed... ;D ;D
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From an environmental point of view youd be better off putting them in your council food waste collection which doesnt go to landfill rather than spending all that energy burning, boilng, crushing, grinding. Or get yourself a bokashi like others have suggested, you can put meat and bones in it. If you try cooking BFB up at home youd likely get a visit from environmental health due to the stink. Also BFB is a balanced fertiliser, youd never get it to be balanced DIY.
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course there's always the chance that the person who started this thread is actually a serial killer, and they've run out of space under the patio
Sorry :D
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;D ;D....just warming mi old bones... ;D ;D
..anyway..seriously...if I would have lots of bones to get rid of..for some reason...
I would burn them in my bin barbeque and use them as ashes instead...same with fish waste...
And fish doesn't need to be cooked untill ash state, only to burn flesh off...and then it is easily composted....
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course there's always the chance that the person who started this thread is actually a serial killer, and they've run out of space under the patio
Sorry :D
Love it :)
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Crushing bones is not that difficult as long as they are heated sufficiently first.
From ECHO Development Notes, January 1997, Issue 55
MAKING BONE MEAL FERTILIZER.
Tim Motis, who was working in Ethiopia (and is now an ECHO staff member), asked us about grinding animal bones to make bone meal fertilizer for increasing phosphorus levels in poor soils. Bone meal fertilizer is produced commercially and at one time was much more widely used. Motis was interested in village-level production. The following is extracted from information sent to us after we asked VITA (Volunteers in Technical Assistance) for help and from the Food and Agriculture Organization book Animal By-Products: processing and utilization.
VITA sent an excerpt from a book published in 1947 called Commercial Fertilizers, their sources and use. Author Gilbeart Collins states that bones were used as fertilizer in England as early as 1653. "Their value as a fertilizer appears to have been recognized in England much earlier than in any other country.... During the latter part of the 19th century deposits of bone were sought, particularly by the English, and collected from all parts of the world for use as fertilizer." Even battlefields and catacombs were used. In early USA history, "large quantities of buffalo bones were collected from the western plains for making fertilizer." "As virulent anthrax organisms have sometimes been discovered on old bones ... many countries require a certificate of sterilization before bone may be imported."
Processed bones may have been cooked, steamed, or treated with acid, or just been exposed to the elements for some time (desert bone). Any of these make grinding easier. Equipment for grinding can range from simple mortar-and-pestle pounding to animal-powered grinding wheels to modern hammer or roller mills.
Green [untreated] bones are sometimes ground and sold as 'raw bone meal.' "The fatty materials found in raw bone meal tend to delay the decomposition of the material when it is added to the soil. [Raw bone meal] contains 2-4% nitrogen and 22-25% phosphate." The raw bone contains elastic materials which make the grinding process considerably more difficult, though the protein they contain adds a bit of nitrogen to the final product.
Most commercial bone meal is steamed. Bones are boiled or steamed at high pressure to remove the gelatinous material (used commercially to make gelatin and glue). Thus treated, they can be ground finer, making the phosphates more readily available. Bone meal is superior to mineral phosphates in its crop-producing powers. Its effectiveness is increased by the modest nitrogen content and the various micronutrients it contains. The calcium salts (lime) also present tend to reduce soil acidity.
"Bones are sometimes heated in a closed retort.... The residual charcoal is known as bone-black [and is] used to clarify sugar. It contains 30-35% phosphate and 10% carbon."
So is it practical to make bone meal at the farm or community level? Possibly. The FAO publication Animal By-Products: processing and utilization says that "a crude but effective method is to burn the bones and to use the meal so obtained either as a mineral livestock-feed supplement or as a phosphate fertilizer." Both dry and fresh bones can be used though the process goes faster with older, dry bones.
"If the bones are only required for soil dressing, they can be piled directly over firewood or any other combustible material and fired. The charcoal and bones are collected together and poured into sacks." "To obtain a clean product [as opposed to the charcoal/bone mixture]...erect some form of large grill from old piping, (or perhaps from old car springs or similar material), pile the bones on top and make a fire underneath." The bars should be spaced close enough to prevent small bones from falling through, and should not be piled too high. They recommend a pile about one foot high (30.5 cm). The whole process will take from half to one hour. The bones are ready to be taken from the fire once they have become spongy and brittle."
A variation on this method is "trench-firing". A fire is built in a trench a minimum of 2 feet (30 cm) deep. The grid is laid across a shelf dug some 6 inches (15 cm) below ground level along the trench and the bones piled on top of the grid. "The advantages of this simple method are that large logs may be used for firing and that the heat is concentrated so that the required temperature is reached more quickly."
The firing process achieves three aims: "(1) it sterilizes the bones; (2) it burns off all the fat, blood vessels, marrow etc.; (3) the 'calcined' bones are so soft that they can be pounded easily with a pestle and mortar...." It can also be done with little equipment.
"The average analysis of several samples of bone meal obtained in this way was as follows:
1. (dry bones) 15.5% phosphorus (equivalent to 35.5% P2O5), and 30.5% calcium (equivalent to 42.8% CaO).
2. (fresh bones with meat first stripped away) 15.2% phosphorus and 31.0% calcium."
"The meal is equal to the best quality steamed bone meal," which is often unobtainable locally or imported at high prices even though bones may be freely obtainable.
Because older, dry bones have already lost a lot of water and organic substances, they do not lose as much weight upon burning and the yield is higher. One hundred pounds of dry bones should yield about 66 pounds of bone meal. Fresh bones may yield about 33 pounds.
A junior-high student in the Ft. Myers area came to ECHO asking for an idea for a science fair project. We suggested he make some bone meal and do a trial. He grew four containers of radishes - one without phosphorus, one with phosphorus supplied by triple-super-phosphate, one with commercial bone meal, and one with bone meal he and his father made with a barbeque grill and mortar and pestle. The radishes grown with his preparation produced the best of the four.
It is easy to see why one might want to add bone meal to soil as a fertilizer, but why feed it to animals? Many tropical and subtropical soils are "highly deficient in phosphorus. Pastures grown on such soil are low in phosphates, especially when the fully mature plants start to dry out. Animals grazed on such land have a low blood phosphorus level." "The deterioration of livestock manifests itself by unthriftiness, lack of production, reduced fertility, poor calves, lack of resistance to parasitic infestation, losses in meat and milk. Because the appetite decreases proportionately to the decrease of phosphorus in the blood, the animal's intake of protein is reduced." Unfortunately, such losses of production are often attributed to droughts and diseases and rarely to phosphorus deficiency, which can easily be remedied by supplementation of phosphorus!
In extreme cases, called pica, "Animals suffering from lack of phosphorus have a depraved appetite. A craving to eat bones leads them to ingest putrid material which often contains toxins produced by the botulinus bacteria. In such cases, animals usually succumb to paralysis.... Healthy animals very rarely touch decomposed matter or bones. Two or three ounces of moistened bone meal, spoon dosed, is sufficient to remedy phosphorus deficiency. It may also be given in troughs, as a lick in brick form, or mixed with salt and trace elements."
You can also make your own cattle lick to overcome mineral deficiencies. "Bone meal can be fed alone to cattle, but it is better to enrich it by addition of other trace elements which may be lacking in your particular area. In Kenya, very good results have been obtained from the following formula: 66 pounds of bone meal, 33 pounds of red oxide salt (containing iron), 6 ounces of copper sulphate, 1/15 ounce of potassium or sodium iodide, and 1.5 ounces of cobalt nitrate or cobalt sulphate or cobalt chloride.... In countries where other trace deficiencies occur, different trace elements should be used."
"The weighing of the trace element fraction and the initial mixing of such a small percentage is impractical in the field. Hence the trace elements for 100 pounds of mix should be weighed previously, thoroughly mixed with 1 pound of bone meal and sealed in a small package. Then to each 66 pounds of bone meal and 33 pounds of red oxide salt, there is added one such pack and the whole is mixed together...."
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whoaa..couldn't say better myself... :)
That was really interesting to read...I'll stick to the ready made stuff...
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I onced worked near a farmer's merchants where they made fertilisers and the stench when they made blood fish and bone was unmentionable. The thought of trying to manufacture the stuff at home seems too much to imagine.
Once upon a time fish mongers and butchers had their own waste which could be bought up but I think it is all much more industrial now. The huge abatoirs and meat processing factories and factory ships most likely have it all in place to pass on the stuff for processing.
Saw a programme on tv once where they showed that at the crematoriums they had a machine to grind down the large bones which the fire did not completely turn to ash.
I suppose if one used chicken bones it would be simpler baking them does make them very brittle.
For the blood. One can buy dried blood used for making black puddings. Fish mongers who head and fillet fish often sell of those bits for making fish stock and I would suggest grinding down egg shells would be the easiest way of making the calcium at home to match the bone.
The calculations of how much of each and how to spread the mix is certainly interesting.
Are you sure there is not something else you would rather do with your free time?
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well being the originator of this thread, i'm glad to see that it's finally gotten a more educational content. There are actually some very good answers, especially Baccyman's post.
Yes, i'm sure it's far easier to buy it, however, this would be against my original intention, as I would really like to go ahead to see how effective my own DIY version would be. Plus, I will be doing so on a much smaller scale than any industry, and as I have access to quite a large open space, I shouldn't get too many complaints from the neighbours re the smell.
As for the comments made by "Bugloss2009", I definitely have a list of people i'd love to bump off, however, I don't have the nerve to go ahead with it......still 11 pints of blood per person would make for quite a lot of the necessary ingredients, so may have to sharpen the axe after all, also, if the neighbours do complain, it all adds to the fertiliser I can make.
now where's my whetstone?
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I suppose turning them into fertiliser would be an improvement on pork pies.
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I suppose turning them into fertiliser would be an improvement on pork pies.
so how would you like your hair cut sir?
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Oh what a post,, think my ancestors called Hare might be turning in their graves,,, if they are still there of course.
On a sensible note.. brisket bones are not sharp or tough afer they have been pressure cooked like other bones, I used to do these for my dogs, there are no sharp bits to hurt them . I think they may be easier to pulverise.. so eat a lot of ribs for a while perhaps.
I do admire yor determination, reminds me of when I made tofu from scratch.
You might get blood from the slaughterhouse, I used to get raw tripes for the dogs, they were happy to sell that. I would try a small one rather than a huge concern.
XX Jeannine
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Our allotments site deed have long list of things what are not allowed on the site.can't remember the exact words..old language..but basicly you are not allowed deal with fish..boil bones..
..and I have always found it funny..it never occured to me why..
..there might be somebody who may want to so some BFB...! ::) ;D
..I'll tick that job off from the list.. ;)
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You might get blood from the slaughterhouse, I used to get raw tripes for the dogs, they were happy to sell that. I would try a small one rather than a huge concern.
Unfortunately most abbatoirs have been infiltrated by the health & safety brigade which means that buying blood can be extremely difficult due to the paperwork that has to accompany waste material. If you take an animal in to be slaughtered you can have all the material normally discarded back with a couple of exceptions like cow heads & spinal columns but most people would have more luck buying in dried pigs blood imported from holland. Any butchers should be able to supply food grade dried blood alternately you could purchase direct from a butchers suppliers such as Scobies.
http://www.scobiesdirect.com/ItemInfo.asp?ItemDesc=Dried+Blood&ItemNo=OC30146
It may work out cheaper to buy non food grade dried blood intended for horticultural use though, 25kg sacks should be available from most agricultural or horticultural merchants.
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Unfortunately most abbatoirs have been infiltrated by the health & safety brigade which means that buying blood can be extremely difficult due to the paperwork that has to accompany waste material.
always the way....the b*stards!
It may work out cheaper to buy non food grade dried blood intended for horticultural use though, 25kg sacks should be available from most agricultural or horticultural merchants.
that's a good idea. Not sure if i'd want 25 kg of dried bloody laying around though but who knows, if I go ahead and buy some, perhaps someone else would care to split it with me. I should imagine 5-10 kg (consider that in ratio with the bone and fish this amount of blood would make a lot) would be more than enough to cover a large plot for a year at the very least. Probably 2 or more years even and considering i've got a huge leaf and grass cuttings composting operation going on, it sounds like next years harvest could be quite sizeable.
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If you just need small quantities of blood then boxes of Vitax dried blood is probably the best option.
http://www.hardware-ironmongers.com/details.aspx?description=Dried%20Blood%200.9kg%20%20%28Sold%20in%20packs%20of%2012%20%20so%200.39%20each%29%20&code=de312637
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That's why I suggested a small one... sometimes the country ones will bend the rules a but,, ours did anyway.XX Jeannine
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one of the best grinders ive found is one of those ole school things you clamped to a table with a cranking handle you turned. ive got two as i make my own fishing ground bait .
chuck the stuff in the top and crank the handle , the big screw forces everthing againts the blades and chopps it up, out the end comes fine well chopped up loverly stuff
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The only problem with those is that they tend to shift about and come loose as the clamps aren't all that good.
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Rather late reading this topic but read once a woman would save all chicken leg bones and let them dry in the oven after she baked something and then would push the dry leg bones into the soil around her roses which grew beautifully. I did this until I got bored pushing leg bones about. They never seemed to be bothered by foxes but every time I've used bonemeal my plants get dug up. I put some meal yesterday around the fig tree in a pot and around some bulbs and today they were all dug up I'm guessing by Mr. Fox. Perhaps it should only be applied in the Fall?
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I use bone meal only when planting something or during winter when it is readily 'swallowed' by wet soil....maybe if you would water it in thoroughly..your visitors would leave it alone..
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Oh yuk! I'm with Bugloss.. Serial killer alert!
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I use bone meal only when planting something or during winter when it is readily 'swallowed' by wet soil....maybe if you would water it in thoroughly..your visitors would leave it alone..
I watered it in and put wood chip mulch over both places. The scent must still be there.