Allotments 4 All
General => The Shed => Topic started by: debster on March 24, 2010, 21:10:13
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Hubby has been working for the same college as a chef for nearly 10 years, there is very serious threat of redundancy as the college is looking like closing.
today he has been handed a new contract which is identical to the last one except he and all his staff are now on 10 month probationary period, this can be extended and is open ended until they are happy to sign the staff off. it also says if they do not reach the set standard they can have their contract terminated with just one weeks notice.
this is not for any disciplinary reason and was done to the rest of the college staff last year
my questions are
a is this legal
b is this a way for them to avoid redundancy
c should they have had notice they got the new contracts today but they start the 1st of april
thanks for your help
debbie
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Have some knowledge of employment law, but am not a lawyer.
NO they cannot ask him to change his contract terms after 10 years if he does not agree.
YES you are correct in assuming they are pulling a fast one! >:( >:( >:(
Under EU legislation is you employ someone for 12 months in a post you are basically stating the long term need for the post exists and IF they inhabit that post over 12 months you are stating they are the long term inhabitants of that job and you have no problem with how they are doing it.
switching to a 10 month contract loses all the protections of EU legislation. I realise sometime in the UK (or in the Daily Mail) anything European is negative, believe me when I say as someone who has worked in three different EU countries this is NOT the case.
EU legislation favours the workers (so much so that it is crippling my current area, surgical training at the mo but that's another argument!)
After 10 years Employment legislation is that if his job is at threat of redundancy for any reason he must be either offered something of a similar level in the organisation, (nothing below his current pay grade) OR
he must be offered a redundancy package.
They're 'aving a laugh"!!!" hoping no-one will know the legislation, seriously reject this new contract and get an employment solicitor asap!
it will pay dividends especially if they do it as a group!!!
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Debs, Wilder really seems to know his stuff. Suggest you print off his reply and take it from there.
All the best, and Wilder I think you're brilliant.
Lishka
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Debster
All that wilder says is correct.
All employment law regarding contracts can be found at direct.gov.uk and can e read by anyone. I found it very useful when my hubby got made redundant recently.
An employment lawyer is a good place to start too and most lawyers will give a bit of free advice.
I am lucky in that I know a good set of lawyerswhich I have used alot and they have beeen a great help in hubbys recent circumstances.
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;D ;D ;D thank you Lishka,
I think I'm doubly brilliant now cos I'm a SHE
whooo-hoo.
seriously I'll turn up at any meeting and quote them chapter and verse!!
I once ran off TK MaXX from a sitaution in Dublin when they tried to fire a young cousin of mine with a 23 page page list of questions. ;D ;D
She was allowed to bring a "friend/Family member" once they were not legally qualified ;D ;D
. I ran a big business in Dublin at the time and was delighted at the opportunity as they insisted that only staff from the UK could hold management jobs in the Irish Branch. >:( >:( >:(
Ohhhh, I had them on Equal Ops and 10 different legislative areas after that!!
(I'm a bit Bolshie and protective about people who clearly show they do a good job over time and some rat thinks because they don't know the rules they can be easily shafted. This makes my blood boil!!!)
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Debster, is he in a union?
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What is his union doing,to let all this happen? Don't tell me he isn't in one, because that will make him the perfect candidate for being shafted.
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might be worth ringing acas for some advice on this? they can help
from whats said i think what there doing is illegal,not accepting a new contract isnt an ill on your husbands part,the employer should work around it to find a solution for both sides
dont accept the bully employer claims of its this or nowt,speak to acas or other dispute sevice they will not only advise and mediate but also defend in court if the matter warrants it
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When I was working I used to find this web site a very interesting source of information.
http://www.emplaw.co.uk/
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I think they are trading on the difficult employment conditions at the moment.
What they are proposing is a unilateral variation of contract. The problem for your hubby and his staff is - do they agree to it and risk the possibility of being without a job, and no redundancy payment, in the near future?
If they don't agree, the alternative would be for them all to leave, pleading constructive unfair dismissal, and take the employer to a tribunal. This is a bit drastic.
What the company is banking on is that your hubby and staff are desperate to keep their jobs in any circumstances, and agree to the changes. They will then be free to dismiss/sack them in the near future, without having to pay redundancy money.
It's a very shabby way to treat long serving employees, but I have known of worse.
I agree with gaz, the Advisory, Concilliation and Arbitration Service (ACAS) should be your first point of call. They are independent/impartial employment law specialists, and are free.
I hope you get through this debbie, but if I was hubby I would be looking for another job asap anyway, as a company that can treat employees so shabbily doesn't deserve any.
valmarg
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http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/employment/contracts_of_employment.htm#changes_to_contracts (http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/employment/contracts_of_employment.htm#changes_to_contracts)
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thank you Lishka,
I think I'm doubly brilliant now cos I'm a SHE
:-[ :( Oops! Sorry!
:)
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Good luck Debs, there's some brilliant advice here. I hope it all turns out favourably for your hubby. Do keep us posted ;)
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Debs -
I work at a firm of solicitors and our Cheltenham branch are employment specialists!
One of the important things to consider is cost and you will find that you should have some legal cover with your house insurance which may help you! But it sounds like you have good advice - but the main thing is that you should see a solicitor to ensure that you are barking up the right tree!
Old Bird
;)
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well there has been a development the company have decided that the probationary period should not have been in there and they are going to delete it
the rest of the contract stands, the terms and conditions are exactly the same but surely by signing it this will make the previous service record void, one guy has been there nearly 20 years so this will affect his redundancy payment
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My husband was in the same position a few years ago and he refused to sign the contract along with a few others. The company sacked 100 people in November, my husband is one of 15 left possibly because he didn't sign.
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Deffo do not sign, they can't just change their contracts without consultation.
Again whats the union doing
No union, then next stop citizens advice, then ACAS
At the very least there should be 90 days notice of change. ???
:( :( :(
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no union im afraid i am but he never has
anyway following advice on here i rang acas, who said that it doesnt matter if he signs the contract or not, in the eyes of the law when it comes to redundancy or being sacked they would take his 10 years into account and that his work would have ti prove he hadnt worked there he wouldnt have to prove that he had
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ACAS has said it but it is worth repeating - no employer has the legal right to ask any employee to sign away their rights, e.g. working time, redundancy rights, minimum wage etc etc.
The employer can negotiate with its workforce, setting out its reasons and listening to concerns etc. Depending on the size of the college workforce, if closure is likely then there is a statutory consultation period of upto 3 months - which is not to be confused with a notice period.
Redundancy is about the post not the job holder. So if there is another suitable position, then the person at risk of redundancy should be offered that with a trial period on both sides - salary does not always have to be at the same level, but does have to be negotiated.
One thing to bear in mind that unless the contract says otherwise, redundancy payments do not have to be higher than the current statutory weekly wage, which is around £270 or so. Pay in lieu of notice must be at the normal weekly rate, less any overtime.
DO NOT sign under any circumstances.
Good luck
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payments do not have to be higher than the current statutory weekly wage, which is around £270 or so
Are you sure about this? I thought the max was £380 unless contract states it is unlimited.
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Debster
I'm sorry, I have little sympathy for people who don't join the union because it makes it all the harder for us to support our members and the freeloaders still get collective benefits. He won't get support on this issue, but I hope he does the decent thing and joins up now for the next issue.
He should go and visit CAB for some advice, taking his old and new contract with him.
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payments do not have to be higher than the current statutory weekly wage, which is around £270 or so
Are you sure about this? I thought the max was £380 unless contract states it is unlimited.
Yes, 380
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/employment/redundancy___an_introduction/redundancy_pay.htm#how_much_is_statutory_redundancy_pay (http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/employment/redundancy___an_introduction/redundancy_pay.htm#how_much_is_statutory_redundancy_pay)
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oops - sorry. Must check typing more carefully :-[
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Unwashed
When unions remember that they exist soley to represent their members rights, then I'll join. At the moment, I see unions using the smallest reason to boost their own power and position; I'm thinking particularly about PCS.
I believe it is right that as individual's we have a free will choice to decide whether or not to join a union and that our successful employment no longer hinges on our acceptance of union membership. that's not freedom, it's coercion - rather at odds with the ethos of trade unionism surely?
Anyway, this thread isn't about TU membership, its about a dodgy employer - the only thing a union would add to the mix is a strike and hasten the closure of the business.
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Debster.
I am certain that you will find that as an employee you do not sign a contract of employment, you sign to say that you have received a copy from your employer. Your employer is by law required to give you a contract of employment and the signature saying you have received it is common practise
The employer can vary that contract by giving you notice. You would sign to say that you had received that copy.
The contract can not alter what the law demands as a minimum.
Your house insurance almost certainly covers you for legal advice if you have a dispute with an employer, neighbourand and can even be used if you have an accident which was not your fault.
You could ring them up and enquire, they should have their own legal department who can advise or could refer you to a local solicitor at their expense.
Your husband would be best advised to join a Union together with all the other members of staff with whom he works. It has to be said that some Unions are better than others and the cost of the subscriptions varies too. Workers who belong to Unions are always on a higher salary than non Union workers.
Too many people think they can save money by not joining a Union because the Employer seems to be OK. Yhen when they find that they could be 5h1t on they whinge.
Join a Union in the good times and enourage your employer to accept them. If there are problems then, there is already a relationship which can work both ways.
Union leaders can be pig headed as we have seen with BA but not all are.
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When unions remember that they exist soley to represent their members rights, then I'll join. At the moment, I see unions using the smallest reason to boost their own power and position; I'm thinking particularly about PCS.
I'm sorry you have such a jaundiced view, it's people like you who give the Scottish Mafia their power (former CPSA officials will know what I mean).
I believe it is right that as individual's we have a free will choice to decide whether or not to join a union and that our successful employment no longer hinges on our acceptance of union membership. that's not freedom, it's coercion - rather at odds with the ethos of trade unionism surely?
I suppose that the employer in question is not coercing?
Anyway, this thread isn't about TU membership, its about a dodgy employer - the only thing a union would add to the mix is a strike and hasten the closure of the business.
As a former branch secretary of a union (of which I am still a member 23years after leaving the job) I can assure you that a strike is the last thing on the agenda. Just before I left the job I had to handle a strike, afterwards I was thanked by members and the management for my efforts.
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and Larkshall you clearly demonstrate that there are good people out there, committed to doing the best by their members. If only there were more of you - sadly there are not.
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When unions remember that they exist soley to represent their members rights, then I'll join. At the moment, I see unions using the smallest reason to boost their own power and position; I'm thinking particularly about PCS.
Campaigning for workers' rights has no boundaries. Unions have a legitimate right to involve themselves in the broadest possible range of debate to represent their members' interests and values, social, political, or indeed horticultural. And yes, that can be a powerful lobby, though rarely as powerful as the self-interest that opposes it.
I believe it is right that as individual's we have a free will choice to decide whether or not to join a union and that our successful employment no longer hinges on our acceptance of union membership. that's not freedom, it's coercion - rather at odds with the ethos of trade unionism surely?
Isn't that a false dichotomy? I don't actually understand your point.
Anyway, this thread isn't about TU membership, its about a dodgy employer - the only thing a union would add to the mix is a strike and hasten the closure of the business.
Maybe you should stop reading the Daily Mail. In this situation the worker would have been advised and reassured had he been in a unoin, and had the union been any good the situation would never have occured in the first place. However, if there isn't an active union there is nothing to stop the employer trying it on.
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I don't read the Daily Mail - perhaps you should let go of a few preconceptions?