Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: Sarah-b on November 09, 2004, 09:36:50
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I have read about the goodness of leaf mold, but what would be the benefit or disadvantage of just digging a load of wet cherry leaves straight into the soil?
One clear benefit to me would be not having to build a dedicated leaf mold bin!
Thanks,
Sarah.
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I am not an expert in these matters Sarah, but it seems to me that you probably don't have to go to the bother of having a leave mould bin. After all, when I walk through our local woods, the soil there is just perfect that it is all from the leaves continually falling each year and making natural leaf mould without man's help ;) :)
Pat
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Sarah I think it is something to do with the time it takes for the leaves to break down into a friable compost. I have 2 leafmould bins and it has taken 2 years for the mix of leaves to break down into something I would put into my soil, but lovely stuff it is!! (different types of leaves decompose at different rates) My bins are only 4 poles driven into the ground with wire fencing wrapped round, and they can be any size or shape you want! The other option which works well is to put damp leaves into bin bags, with a couple os holes in the bottom, and chuck em somewhere you can't see them! Behind a shed is good! You just have to remember they are there ;D But I still don't really know the answer to the original question! DP
BTW this may help http://www.hdra.org.uk/factsheets/making_leafmould.htm (http://www.hdra.org.uk/factsheets/making_leafmould.htm)
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If you dig in the leaves, I think they would take a very long time to breakdown. Not sure whether they would do any harm in the soil...although perhaps they might steal nitrogen when breaking down?? Not sure.
Practicioners of lasagna gardening do put layers of leaves directly on the soil though.
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Hi Sarah,I think the only advantage of digging in leaves is that it keeps your garden clean, if you look at it as wieght for wieght- a fork full of well composted leaf mould can feed plants straight away and it hold water that allow the plant to take in water, the compost will stay in the ground for sometime, but a fork full of leaves, when it breaks down in the ground, it will only feed plants for a very short time and you'll fine you'll have to feed the plant again by mulch's or liquid feed's or componds, and as there's no mass to the leaves you'll have to water more in the summertime.
I think you would be better to compost the leaves for two or three years then use them as a potting/mulching/feeding compost.
Hope this help
later
windy :) :)
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I was wondering whether a few good forks full of leaves at the bottom of a trench might help with moisture retention. Cos our plot is something like a gravel pit. (I was able to dig it yesterday even after it has been raining for days.)
Incidently, I was watching my plot neighbout fill his bean trench for next year with his buddleia clippings. Apparently he does that every year.
SB
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If you put the leaves in a black bag (or old compost/grow bag turned inside out) and tie the end when it's full, it's supposed to help rot down quicker. I think the problem is (assuming I've understood it right) that autumn leaves do not have much nitrogen in them. So if you mix in something high in nitrogen (such as grass cuttings or green manure) it helps rot quicker too.
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I chucked loads of leaves into my bean trench this time last year, but also filled about 10 sacks with leaves, which were all bunged on plot number two a couple of weeks back, and lovely stuff it was too!
I think digging a trench and putting them in the bottom, then backfilling would work find, in fact I seem to remember Eric talking about doing something similar back in the dark ages ;) before he had a proper compost bin.
I leave most that fall onto my flower beds at home as it is too fiddly to get in and yank them out, unless they heap up into the crowns on things as this could cause things like hostas to rot, however, heaped up around my fuschias keeps them snug through the winter. I do remove all the leaves from the lawm, it is rubbish enough without making it any worse!
As said before, the leaves take a long time to break down, and during the breaking down they will steal nitrogen from the soil. I am assuming this is on your allotment and not garden, so they are patches that aren't going to be used until next spring.....so go for it, by then they should have started to break down and as you say, will help with water retention and bulk.
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Sarah,
on the raised beds at home I just pile them on top as a mulch, it keeps the rain off the soil. If there are any left in the spring then I just plant through them. Eventually they all disappear -hopefully pulled into the soil by worms. It was recommended by the HDRA. The beds are fairly sheltered and they don't seem to blow around if they're wet when they go on.
BTW I collect them off the lawn with the mower, set on high, which chops them up and there may be some grass in there to help them along.
I do make leaf mould as too,for use as a soil improver, but this works well for me.
Jeremy.
Looking at next door's leaves covetously.
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Well Jeremy - that's where my leaves are...
I asked my neighbour if we could rake up her leaves and she got all defensive thinking I was criticising her garden. So I had to explain that we want the leaves!
Anyway, think I might just have a go at stirring them in a bit.
This whole nitorgen robbing thing - can someone explain it to me?
Do the leaves just hold onto the nitrogen while they rot and then release it back into the soil?
Sarah.
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Hi Sarah,here's a webpage that will explain things to help you,
http://www.crocus.co.uk/alanshowto/moreflowers/
copy this URL to your favourites,double click on the address and when the page is open,on the right handside ,under Mr A Titchmarsh theres a section on making leafmould and how to use it.
hope this helps,
later ,
windy. ;)
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Sarah,
nitrogen robbery takes place when organisms use the nitogen in the soil as part of the process of decomposing (composting) organic matter. It all depends on how much nitrogen there is in your organic matter as to whether robbery will take place or not -there's a handy table at :
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/fundamentals/needs_carbon_nitrogen.htm (http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/fundamentals/needs_carbon_nitrogen.htm)
leaves, it seems, are rather variable ???
If they're on the surface then they'll have to get most of the excess nitrogen they require from the atmosphere, if they're buried then the organisms will take it out of the soil, 'robbing' it from your plants.
That said, what sort of soil do you have? It has been written, Gardeners 3 verse 27, lo, if thou hast heavy soil, dig in raw(ish) organic matter and the bounty of the lord will be upon you, and your children, and you children's children even unto the tenth generation.
Or something like that. Clay soils usually have lots of nitrogen and poor structure. They can afford to lose some of the nitrogen to benefit from an improved structure.
I think you get the nitrogen back in the end.
I seem to have turned into Oz and be babbling.
Jeremy
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Hehehe, I like that derbex 'Gardeners 3, verse 27...' ;D
Have clay soil, so if the leafmould I have been promised doesn't turn up, may have a go at digging leaves straight in. :)
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Ooh - that is interesting about clay.
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Our plot is a stony, sandy, flinty, chalky, bone-dry-sort of a place.
Have added neghbours leaves to a newly constructed, beautifuly layered compost heap (layers of straw, chicken poo, kitchen waste, garden waste, comfrey, neighbours leaves - ooh lovely time i had on Sunday...)
Sarah
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With poor, sandy and stony soils, adding dead autumn (not green) leaves in bulk can be of considerable benefit, but should be done by way of making thick layers at the bottom of trenches. Not only leaves, but also thick layers of newspapers can be used in the same way.
Both leaves and newspaper will break down very slowly, forming a layer (rather like chocolate cake) which (a) resists the drainage away of moisture in dry weather, and acts as a moisture reservoir, as well as slowing the loss of nutrients by leaching; (b) provides ideal conditions for worms to increase in soils which would otherwise be sparsely populated; and (c) in stony soils helps to slow, or even prevent, the constant upward migration of stones from the subsoil.
The concern about the loss of nitrogen used in the breakdown of the leaves (or newspapers) is largely misplaced. Autumn (i.e.dead) leaves (and newspapers) are broken down not by bacterial action, but by the action of Actinomycetes and fungal organisms. In normal composting of green materials the process commences with the activities of Mesophilic (low temperature) bacteria, using nitrogen from whatever source is available. Once these bacteria have achieved a modest rise in the temperature the Thermophilic (high temperature) bacteria take over and raise the temperature to well in excess of 130 degF - using a lot of nitrogen in the process. However, those of you who have added dead (not to be confused with green) leaves to your compost should have noticed that when the bin cools the leaves have been virtually unaffected by the process, and it is only when the bin cools down again that the Actinomycetes and fungi (and only they), which only operate in cool conditions, start to break down the leaves. That is why autumn leaves on their own do not heat up when stacked - there is nothing for the Mesophilic and Thermophilic bacteria to act upon. The Actinomycetes and fungi use considerably less nitrogen in their processes, and as these processes are very slow the actual loss of nitrogen in the soil is probably little (if any) more than would otherwise have been lost by leaching - a sizeable proportion of the nitrogen added to the soil in various forms is in any event simply lost by leaching before it can be used by the plants.
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Thanks Hugh for this specific advice. I shall gather more leaves and put them in trenches. That is really what I was wondering about. It does make sense anyway - if you have a layer of leaves then some of the moisture will be retained in the soil.
A question though - with newspaper, does it matter about coloured ink? Isn't it made up of poisons?
Thanks,
Sarah.
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Now there you really have me Sarah. The newspapers I read rarely have much in the way of coloured ink. One is printed on pink paper but with black print and that went in with the rest. What few colour printed pages I`ve come across I`ve also buried on the basis that they only form a minute proportion of the total and my plants have certainly suffered no ill effects. However, I should have mentioned that you should definitely NOT bury the colour supplements - or anything else with shiny pages - as these don`t break down; one accidentally got buried under one of my leafmould bins and when I cleared out the bin 3 years later I was able to wash off the bits and read the supplement again.
I would add that what I advocated in my posting I actually did with all but one of my raised beds in turn over a 4 year period (I could only do 2 beds of 30ft x 4ft each year because it took a year`s supply of leaves and newspaper). sieving each bed as I backfilled because my soil is also sand and stones. The beneficial effects were immediately apparent and have lasted a good 10 years - the treated beds are still superior to the one I didn`t do.
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Sarah
there's a thread here :-
General / Top Tips / Re:Newspaper mulch
I posted a link to a paper put out by the Centre for Alternative Technology who had some analysis done, and it was ok to use newspaper.
The old coloured dyes used to be pretty evil -lots of heavy metals if I remember- presumeably they've had to switch to something more friendly now.
Jeremy
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Hi everybody ,just read a thread from Wicker and he gave a website you may like
http://www.mastercomposter.com/leon/compost.html
take a look
later
windy
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Packaging waste directive from a few years back stipulated that all packaging (and this generally applied to the inks) was to contain less than 5 parts per million mercury, lead, hexavalent chromium and something else that has slipped my mind - cadmium I think. Anyhow, they used to use heavy metals (particularly chromium in yellows) but now they don't. I assume (dangerous I know!) that something similar has happened with newspaper inks...
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OK - so probably don't have to worry about the odd bit of colour on the newspaper.
Windy - Had a look at that guys steaming heaps - nice!!
Hugh - this "upward migration" of stones is something I've been wondering about. Why does it happen. Is it like when you rub butter into flour to make pastry and then shake the bowl to see if you've got any big lumps? - except on a whole-world scale?
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Basically the effect is the same, although the actual principle is somewhat different. The way it works is this - where you have undisturbed or packed soil and stone mixture nothing happens (or more correctly it happens so slowly as to be imperceptible). However, if the soil surface is loosened to allow greater water penetration this allows the `fines` (smaller particles) to work down between the larger ones. In fact the stones don`t rise, but the soil above them sinks down below them. The same principle also results in the stones at the bottom gradually being loosened from their moorings, so the process becomes continuous. Growing plants in the soil will simply increase the so called upward migration as the plants roots also contribute to the loosening of the stones at the bottom. Providing a layer of leaves, newspaper etc simply reduces this action and so impedes the upward migration.
The same principle applies whenever you get a soil containing particles of such disparate sizes that they cannot easily conjoin into a crumb structure. In any ordinary loam soil the particles are all able to stick together (with some encouragement) to form crumbs, but if you add clay to a coarse sand/gravel soil the clay will slowly but surely sink down into the subsoil, leaving you with the same poor stuff on top. If you have such poor sandy/stoney soil, simply tipping good soil on top is only a short term solution - eventually the good soil will disappear out of sight and the poor stuff will be back on top. The only answer is lots and lots of humus to increase the colloidal properties of the soil and encourage the formation of crumbs.
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Hi Sarah, i've just read some of the texts and i dont think you should worry to much. If the paper & cardboards are shredded first and then composted with any organic materials for three years it breaks down, so use in your garden,
Stones-- there are a couple ways to fix the problems
1/ raise your growing beds, bring in new top soil-double dig your ground and add wheel barrows loads of well rotted compost and place some charcoal on the ground before digging each year and in time the poisons of any amount will be take up by the charcoal (like a water filter does).
2/ when double digging your ground sieve each spade full of soil to take out the large stones ( some experts say that small stones are good for the soil to stop water evaperation and the soil from blowing away)
Dont forget a garden is a place to enjoy and relax in and not worry over
later
windy
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Hugh - so that's why my soil looks so much more stoney after it's rain - all the soil covering them must get washed down/away.
I've found that worms are rather keen on newspaper. When I dig through/turn my compost heap, I always find loads of worms in the newspaper clumps (which seem to take ages to break down). I suppose it's because it's so wet.
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Yes, Aquilegia, that`s why the stones always appear immediately after rain, and when you consider that the same process is occurring right down to the subsoil, then you will realise that you have a never-ending process of stones coming up to the top unless you provide some sort of barrier.
And yes, worms do love damp newspaper. When I first started making compost 60 odd years ago I was told to put a layer of torn up newspapers at the bottom to attract worms to the heap (we didn`t have bins in those days) - newspaper is popular with both earthworms and brandlings.
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Mmmmm! When metal detecting in woods, the finds are just below the surface and stopped at the clay,just whizzed through the woodland topsoil of natural leaf mould. In sandy areas the coins etc can whizz down deep very fast. Maybe rain doing it or natural vibrations of the earth? Also flood plains are bad news when it comes to digging the holes! Stuff also makes its way down slopes...