Allotments 4 All
General => The Shed => Topic started by: brian4951 on December 31, 2009, 22:33:05
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Hi and a Happy New Year to you all. Just wanted to know what rent you pay for your plots and the size of plots. We have new allotments down here in Hampshire, between Winchester and Southampton in a village called Fair Oak. 2009 was our first year and we've had to contend with blue clay, waterlogged plots and couch grass(ongoing). For this we are charged £40 p.a. We only have water on site. Most of the plots are approx 11 yds x 13 yds. We did hear that the Parish Council are looking to increase the costs for 2010, so hence the question. Regards Brian
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Hi Brian, it's £4.71/pole in Newbury. Your £8.63 is on the expensive side.
What you, or rather what your council need to remember is that since the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999 it has been unlawful for a landlord to arbitrarily increase the rent, and you need to be given 12 months notice of the increase. Your council really ought to be aware of this, but in case they're not you might want to mention it to them. If they ignore you and increase the rents arbitrarily without notice you need to complain to Trading Standards who will enforce the regulations, much to the public embarassment and humiliation of the council.
The council might just be OK if they made it their policy to increase rents by some objective standard like RPI (currently about 1% I think), but they still need to give you adequate notice - enough notice for a tenant to decide they don't want to pay the increase and serve their own notice to terminate the lease - how long exactly depends on the tenancy agreeent, but it' almost certainly 12 months.
For statutory allotments there's also the requirement of S.10 of the 1950 Act that allotments shall be let at such rent as a tenant may reasonably be expected to pay. What constitutes reasonable is down to a judge's interpretation, but I suggest when the agricultural rent is less than 70p/pole then more than ten times that is not remotely reasonable, given that the allotmenteer has her allotment to grow fruit and veg to feed her family and she'd do better going down the supermarket at that rent.
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Depends where you live and who owns them really, such a difference in rents. This previous thread should answer your question, 5 pages of what people pay for plots:
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,37173.0.html
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That thread is more than two years old now. It would be useful to know the current rate - £/pole.
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£37 for 10 pole.
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Ours is set to be £2 per rod for this year (2010) plus £6 for water (if available, not all of our sites have water) plus another £3 for admin (includes NSALG dues)
So, for a ten rod plot, with water and admin = £29 for the year ;)
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That thread is more than two years old now. It would be useful to know the current rate - £/pole.
go on then!! what are you paying?
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I haven't received my invoice for this year yet, will probably come in the next couple of weeks!
Last year I paid £19 for two 60' x 30' plots.
I believe as a pensoner I get them at 'half price' so at that rate I would say our plots are £19 pa
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I thought mine was a bit expensive I reckon that it works out at about 6.75 a rod, but includes water and manure. On a private site. But a gorgeous position, beautiful views. Worth every penny.
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We have charged £30 a year for ages (about 7years) and as the treasurer I was against increasing the cost from £20 per year.
This year we have a surplus of funds and I am asking members for ideas on what to spend the surplus on.
The increase from £20 a year to £30 was proposed by a member who is a good friend of some one who hates me being in control of the money because I refuse to allow claims for 'expenses' such as driving to council meetings ( we do not need to) and going on to the plot to open the gates for a third party. (especially when a member who lives a short walk away offered to do it for nothing .......There is no reason for any one to have expenses to the extent was being claimed before I was appointed.
We have to cover all costs ourselves such as water and insurance we get no subsidy at all and indeed do not expect any. We enjoy our digging and planting and are happy to pay the fee in place which adequately covers all the costs.
I am delighted to know that there are societies who can do it cheaper but ours is a very small site. Meaning there are fewer people to contribute.
Some allocated council plots offer subsidies for Disabled/Elderly members.
We have decided that if a member is not productive they leave.
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Hi Brian, it's £4.71/pole in Newbury.
I pay £4.71/pole Tony. ;)
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Hi Brian, it's £4.71/pole in Newbury.
I pay £4.71/pole Tony. ;)
oops< missed that, soz!!
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Hi PurpleHeather
How big a plot do you get for £30 - I want to get in £/pole for comparison.
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ours is now 22p per sq metre, all the plots seem to be different sizes, ours turns out at 44.00 per year..the minimum payment is 10.00 per year, some people just have 3 or 4 beds so this seemed to be the best solution ;D
for that, we have a fully paved site, water, manure, lime, plus a communal big shed with tea and coffee making facilities, communal conservatory that leaks, we are in the process of getting a communal greenhouse and anyone who doesn't have their own polytunnel has12' in the big one :)
sorry, just seen you want it in price/pole, can't figure that but ours is 36'x59'
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That thread is more than two years old now. It would be useful to know the current rate - £/pole.
Though it is 2 years old, it still gives a starting point for ideas of minimum prices expected to pay but obviously rents will be a little dearer today.
We do not charge per pole or rod, but per plot or half plot. £22 full and £11 half plot. I have 2 plots both different sizes but the same rents. One is 35x110ft and the other is 35x60ft.
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Bit confused when I said per rod I meant per pole.
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On our site the charges are as follows:-
Full Over 60
Mini plot (up to 100 sq.yds) £12 £6
Small (101 to 200 sq.yds) £22 £11
Standard (201 - 400 sq.yds) £28 £14
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We've just increased ours to £13 for a 5-pole plot. I make that £2.60 per pole/rod/perch/whatever. Plus a £4 supplement per member - regardless of how much land they rent - for NSALG & insurance. Water is included free.
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ktlawson, are your plots full or half plots.
Don't worry about converting to £/pole if you don't know - if you say how big and how much I'll do the math, and I'll post a summary in a bit.
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Thanks to all of you who replied. I will sit down properly and take note of the relevant information.
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I Pay £5.50 per rod - £55 for a 10 rod plot, although I suspect the actual size is closer to 7 rods. For that we get a key and access to water tanks as standard.
The contractors are making a real effort to bring the area up to scratch, so in 2009 we also two skips, loads of woodchip, two plots cleared and the japanese knotweed finally sprayed (a 3 year plan) In 2010, we will have the whole site baited for rats and the association will take control of the two cleared plots, renting them out as smaller plots at £35 each after the contractor has levelled and laid paths using reclaimed paving slabs.
Pretty good deal I think.
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ktlawson, are your plots full or half plots.
Don't worry about converting to £/pole if you don't know - if you say how big and how much I'll do the math, and I'll post a summary in a bit.
My 2 are both classed as full plots. Have not got a scooby clue how many sq feet/metres per rod/pole
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I have a half plot and pay £15 a year. Water is included. Council owned site and little input in the up keep.
Bill
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Hi Bill, can you say what the area is of your half plot so we can make a comparison.
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£37 for 10 pole.
Forgot to say that this is including all costs and water.
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Sorry it is about 23 feet by 35 to 40 feet. I have not measured the length but there are 23 of my size 12 boots across the width. I also know it isn't too far for me to walk end to end. :o))))))
Bill
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Story so far - and please keep posting, because the more rents we compare the clearer the picture is:
Average rent is £4.74/pole (eg, that's £23.71 for a 5 pole plot).
Lower quartile is £3.70/pole (eg, that's £18.50 for a 5 pole plot).
Upper quartile of £5.50 (that's £27.50 for a 5 pole plot).
Not every site charges per pole, and some sites include fees and subs on top of the plot so it's not always easy to make a direct comparison, so I've compared the standard all-in cost of a five-pole plot as that's a reasonably representative size of plot.
There's obviously quite a range of rents and you'll probably want to know whether your own rent is cheap or expensive compared to everyone else, and the quartile range is a statistical way of defining that acceptable range.
These are the raw rents as £/pole so far:
£2.20 ktlawson
£2.93 TeeGee
£3.40 Trevor_D
£3.70 Sparkly
£3.80 tonybloke
£4.12 Bill Door
£4.40 Squash64
£4.71 Unwashed
£5.50 manicscousers
£5.50 SMP1704
£6.00 PurpleHeather
£6.75 Digeroo
£8.63 brian4951
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Re size of plot question.
We inherited from the council a mish mash of plot sizes and shapes for that matter the whole site is a funny shape to start with.
The largest plot size is well over 80 feet by 40 feet the smallest will be just over half that, some are an odd triagular shape with a curve on one side.
Seems a Rod, Pole or Perch are the same and all equal to 5.5 yards or 5.03 metres 40 poles to a furlong and there are 8 furlongs in a mile in case anyone wants to know.
You're welcome to come over and measure them all and work out the cost per square yard, feet, metre or nautical mile any time you like but I am not doing it.
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I am actually pleased that mine is not so bad compared with the average to date. I have certainly had more than my fair share of manure. What with the red kite, jays, robins, herons, egrets, spindleberry and the wind through the poplar trees and the wonder of the willow snow and watching the cygnets and piglets growing up, there are somethings that are beyond price, and a grandstand view of the red arrows four times a year.
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Interesting list that!
Its what I thougt it might be......no one knows what to charge these days so they tend to charge that which they will get away with :P :'(
BTW? Is the calculation for my plot/s based on the full price (£19) or what I actually pay (£9-50) per plot?
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I have a 150 square yard plot, but it's a bit of an odd shape so I can't give dimensions exactly. There is water but it's a long way away at the other end of the site. For this I pay £7.50 a year, though I had to pay £25 deposit for the key. Oh, and we get free wood chippings.
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TeeGee, I've compared standard rents without any discount, so if a 30' x 60' plot is let at £19.00 I've assumed that a five pole plot would be let at £14.66 pro-rata, and that gives a comparison rate of £2.93/pole. Is that the right rent for a five pole plot at your site, or would it still be £19.00?
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How many poles to the foot? I have a 300 Sq. foot plot or 0.25 of a rood and for this i pay £76.45 plus water Which this year is £11.20. I think this must be one of the top rates in the country. The old blokes on site say that the rate until three years ago way only about £20 or £30 a year and then the council wanted them off the site so they could build on it, so put the rents up. We are now in the allotment union!!! :-\
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Is that the right rent for a five pole plot at your site, or would it still be £19.00?
All of our plots are approx the same size (60ft x 30 ft) which is roughly 6.6 poles (as you will know) and the rents for each are the same, except for the half plots which as you would expect 'half price'! (£9-50)
There are three half plots, two of which a down to the shape of the site(it narrows at the top end) and another behind the communal hut (plot 19)
On average we have a stand pipe between every two plots.
This is a view of the plots last June;
http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Slide%20Shows/Allotments/allotments.html (http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Slide%20Shows/Allotments/allotments.html)
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How many poles to the foot? I have a 300 Sq. foot plot or 0.25 of a rood and for this i pay £76.45 plus water Which this year is £11.20. I think this must be one of the top rates in the country. The old blokes on site say that the rate until three years ago way only about £20 or £30 a year and then the council wanted them off the site so they could build on it, so put the rents up. We are now in the allotment union!!! :-\
Hi Twoflower, a rood is 1/4 acre, or 40 pole, so a 1/4 rood plot is 10 pole, or 302.5 sq yards, not 300 sq feet.
The pole, perch, rod, and lug are equivelent - 5.5 yards as a measurement of length, and 5.5 yards square as a measurement of area. The units are used for both length and area which might seem a little confusing, but it's usually obvious what you're talking about.
So if you pay £76.45 for 10 poles, that's £7.65/pole - quite expensive, but not ridiculous.
Ed: sorry, forgot about the water charge! That's £8.77/pole - congratulations, you're the winner!
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2.20 ktlawson
£2.93 TeeGee
£3.40 Trevor_D
£3.70 Sparkly
£3.80 tonybloke
£4.12 Bill Door
£4.40 Squash64
£4.71 Unwashed
£5.50 manicscousers
£5.50 SMP1704
£6.00 PurpleHeather
£6.75 Digeroo
£8.63 brian4951
Unwashed, your maths is a bit dodgy!!
quote "So, for a ten rod plot, with water and admin = £29 for the year ;) " quote
my maths makes that £2.90 per rod, inc water and admin.
I have 2 x 10 rod plots, therefore; 20 x £2 + 2 x £6 (water) + ! x £3 (admin) = £55 for 20 rod; 1 rod =£2.75.
some of our sites have no water, thereforeto rent 10 rod = £20 + £3 admin = £23 total or £2.30 per rod.
on same site, 20 rod would cost £40 + £3 admin = £43 total or £2.15 per rod.
hope that makes sense?
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Hi Tony, see what I've said here about the basis of the comparison:
Not every site charges per pole, and some sites include fees and subs on top of the plot so it's not always easy to make a direct comparison, so I've compared the standard all-in cost of a five-pole plot as that's a reasonably representative size of plot.
So from what you've said a 5 pole plot on one of your sites with water would cost £10 + £6 + £3 = £19.00 giving a comparable pole rate of £3.80. On a site without water it'll be £2.60 so I'll add a line for that.
Choosing a different basis for comparison will change the comparison, so sites will rank differently compared on the basis of a 10 or 20 pole plot, but I figure 5 poles is a pretty popular size so that's the size I used for the comparison.
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Hi Tony, see what I've said here about the basis of the comparison:
Not every site charges per pole, and some sites include fees and subs on top of the plot so it's not always easy to make a direct comparison, so I've compared the standard all-in cost of a five-pole plot as that's a reasonably representative size of plot.
So from what you've said a 5 pole plot on one of your sites with water would cost £10 + £6 + £3 = £19.00 giving a comparable pole rate of £3.80. On a site without water it'll be £2.60 so I'll add a line for that.
Choosing a different basis for comparison will change the comparison, so sites will rank differently compared on the basis of a 10 or 20 pole plot, but I figure 5 poles is a pretty popular size so that's the size I used for the comparison.
out of over 1,000 plots in our association, about 6 of them are 5 rod!! the rest are mostly 10 rods, or multiples of.
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out of over 1,000 plots in our association, about 6 of them are 5 rod!! the rest are mostly 10 rods, or multiples of.
I think that's unusual now. I think new tenants will be lucky to get 5 pole, and many new allotenteers don't want that much.
Like I say, I need to use a common basis for the comparison and I figured 5 poles was reasonable, but I'll see if I can make a 10-pole comparison too.
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We have full and half plots - 10 and 5 pole. Probably 90% of the plots are 10 pole, although there does seem to be a trend of splitting plots that become vacant.
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Keep the coming. So far:
On a ten-pole basis then, the average rate is £4.32/pole.
On a five-pole basis the average rate is £4.66/pole.
These are the ten-pole rankings:
£1.54 heloise
£2.30 tonybloke (without water)
£2.80 Squash64
£2.90 tonybloke (with water)
£2.91 ktlawson
£2.93 TeeGee
£3.00 Trevor_D
£3.00 PurpleHeather
£3.70 Sparkly
£4.12 Bill Door
£4.71 Unwashed
£5.50 SMP1704
£5.50 manicscousers
£6.75 Digeroo
£8.63 brian4951
£8.77 Twoflower
And the five-pole rankings:
£1.54 heloise
£2.20 ktlawson
£2.60 tonybloke (without water)
£2.93 TeeGee
£3.40 Trevor_D
£3.70 Sparkly
£3.80 tonybloke (with water)
£4.12 Bill Door
£4.40 Squash64
£4.71 Unwashed
£5.50 manicscousers
£5.50 SMP1704
£6.00 PurpleHeather
£6.75 Digeroo
£8.63 brian4951
£8.77 Twoflower
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Thats typical of our council :-\ anything for a fast buck legal or not.
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Blimey - I didn't realise how cheap these were!! :o
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Gosh, what a difference! :o
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Thats typical of our council :-\ anything for a fast buck legal or not.
Are you refering to the increase in your rent? The council can lawfully increase the rent for new tenants, it's only for existing tenants that the increase is restricted - do your old tenants pay the same rate as new tenants?
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The council can lawfully increase the rent for new tenants, it's only for existing tenants that the increase is restricted - do your old tenants pay the same rate as new tenants?
Our rent is the same for all both new and old tenants. Once rent is paid in April, if a new tenant takes over a few months later, we do not charge them rent until the rent renewals are due for all. (BTW - Our facilities include water and 3 skips per year for allotment waste that cannot be composted.)
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*boing*
If you haven't already, can you say how much a plot costs at your allotment site, and then we can get an idea of what an average rent looks like. Thanks.
So far:
On a ten-pole basis the average rate is £4.20/pole.
On a five-pole basis the average rate is £4.52/pole.
Ed: added Lucho.
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According to my tenancy agreement I pay £14.98 for 198 square yards. This is the average size plot on our site although a few have since been divided. We have no water.
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Im probably a 5 pole plot holder although I have not measured it - it may be a little more.
20 quid all in a year.
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I have a ten pole/rod plot and it costs be £12 a year (when I got it they offered direct debit, £1 per month!!) it would be worth ten times that to me!
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We are charging £24pa for 300sq yards (10 Poles) or 8p per Sq Yard as we have many Odd sized plots... water and "NSALG" included..
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If you haven't already, can you say how much a plot costs at your allotment site, and then we can get an idea of what an average rent looks like. Thanks.
So far:
On a ten-pole basis the average rate is £3.95/pole.
On a five-pole basis the average rate is £4.22/pole.
Five-pole rankings:
£1.20 reddyreddy
£1.54 heloise
£2.20 ktlawson
£2.34 Lucho
£2.40 saddad
£2.60 tonybloke (without water)
£2.93 TeeGee
£3.40 Trevor_D
£3.70 Sparkly
£3.80 tonybloke (with water)
£4.00 BarriedaleNick
£4.12 Bill Door
£4.40 Squash64
£4.71 Unwashed
£5.50 manicscousers
£5.50 SMP1704
£6.00 PurpleHeather
£6.75 Digeroo
£8.63 brian4951
£8.77 Twoflower
ten-pole rankings:
£1.20 reddyreddy
£1.54 heloise
£2.30 tonybloke (without water)
£2.34 Lucho
£2.40 saddad
£2.80 Squash64
£2.90 tonybloke (with water)
£2.91 ktlawson
£2.93 TeeGee
£3.00 PurpleHeather
£3.00 Trevor_D
£3.70 Sparkly
£4.00 BarriedaleNick
£4.12 Bill Door
£4.71 Unwashed
£5.50 manicscousers
£5.50 SMP1704
£6.75 Digeroo
£8.63 brian4951
£8.77 Twoflower
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*boing*
If you haven't already, can you say how much a plot costs at your allotment site, and then we can get an idea of what an average rent looks like. Thanks.
So far:
On a ten-pole basis the average rate is £3.95/pole.
On a five-pole basis the average rate is £4.22/pole.
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plot is one eighth of a acre £30 plot+£5 water+£2 ins We are owned by a charity so we have to deal with a land agent. the total we pay is £800 per year. We like to keep around £2000 in the bank.
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£25 pa for 10 pole plot...no facilities what-so -ever...
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So far:
On a ten-pole basis the average rate is £3.80/pole.
On a five-pole basis the average rate is £4.09/pole.
Digindep, if it cheers you up, allotmenteers in Newbury might soon have to pay £250 for a 10 pole plot with no facilities other than water.
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A totaly thick and uneducated granny here who is pants at any math
our full plot is app 60' by 20' and cost £30 the half plot is app 30' by 20' and cost £15 we have watertroughs about 30' away and thats it no leckie and no lavs
I understand water rates and insurence takes up most of the income
marg
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My plot is 67 ft x 45 ft and is £25 per year. While the rest of the site has good access to water I and my neighbouring plot are now the furtherest distance from water though a new pipe has been put in during the summer which terminates in front of my plot. It should take them about 3/4 years for them to get around to giving it a trough. Currently no other amenties not even a fence to stop unwelcome visitors.
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So far - and I'll just average the 5-pole and 10-pole basis figure so there's just a single headline figure:
The average rate is £4.00/pole.
5-pole rankings:
£1.20 reddyreddy
£1.54 heloise
£2.20 ktlawson
£2.30 kea
£2.34 Lucho
£2.40 saddad
£2.50 digindep
£2.60 tonybloke (without water)
£2.90 springs
£2.93 TeeGee
£3.40 Trevor_D
£3.70 Sparkly
£3.80 tonybloke (with water)
£4.00 BarriedaleNick
£4.12 Bill Door
£4.40 Squash64
£4.71 Unwashed
£5.50 manicscousers
£5.50 SMP1704
£6.00 PurpleHeather
£6.75 Digeroo
£6.94 theothermarg
£8.63 brian4951
£8.77 Twoflower
10-pole rankings
£1.20 reddyreddy
£1.54 heloise
£2.20 springs
£2.30 kea
£2.30 tonybloke (without water)
£2.34 Lucho
£2.40 saddad
£2.50 digindep
£2.80 Squash64
£2.90 tonybloke (with water)
£2.91 ktlawson
£2.93 TeeGee
£3.00 PurpleHeather
£3.00 Trevor_D
£3.70 Sparkly
£4.00 BarriedaleNick
£4.12 Bill Door
£4.71 Unwashed
£5.50 manicscousers
£5.50 SMP1704
£6.75 Digeroo
£6.94 theothermarg
£8.63 brian4951
£8.77 Twoflower
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If your a local resident its £6 per pole
Mines 6 poles x6 = £36
Plus £4.80 water charge = £4.80
Fossils get it at half price
And I've never seen Unwashed get so excited about a thread
You must have a lot of time on your hands my old son.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :-*
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We pay £3.40 per rod for any size plot (over 60's get a discount).
Its a Council owned site with very active committee who manage and maintain the site. We have water taps and troughs (located about every 6th plot), two skips a year for non-compostable items. Bonfires are banned, so we have a bay where we can put woody prunings etc and have a chipper-shredder (operated by committee volunteers) to deal with this type of material, which can then be composted. We also have regular deliveries of tree chippings. We have a field trading shed, use of field owned mowers and strimmers (for a donation towards fuel and maintenance), large field shed for committee meetings etc, and a compost toilet. Council pay for the skips, for road planings for trackway maintenance and things like repair of leaky taps and repair of any damage caused by vandalism.
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*boing*
If you haven't already, can you say how much a plot costs at your allotment site, and then we can get an idea of what an average rent looks like. Thanks.
Average rent so far is: £4.08/pole.
Here's the 5-pole rankings:
£1.20 reddyreddy
£1.54 heloise
£2.20 ktlawson
£2.30 kea
£2.34 Lucho
£2.40 saddad
£2.50 digindep
£2.60 tonybloke (without water)
£2.90 springs
£2.93 TeeGee
£3.40 lavenderlux
£3.40 Trevor_D
£3.70 Sparkly
£3.80 tonybloke (with water)
£4.00 BarriedaleNick
£4.12 Bill Door
£4.40 Squash64
£4.71 Unwashed
£5.50 manicscousers
£5.50 SMP1704
£6.00 PurpleHeather
£6.75 Digeroo
£6.94 theothermarg
£6.96 cornykey
£8.63 brian4951
£8.77 Twoflower
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Our council charges us £250 a year for 38 plots but if we spend the £250 or more on improving the site we don't need to pay anything to them.
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zigzig, what rent does the allotmenteer pay, and how big is her plot?
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Unwashed....£250 pa...seriously would it realy be worthwhile ?
Maybe its a way of driving people off site for some other reason,
' maybe housing' ?????
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unwashed
I pay £3.15 per rod which includes water + £2.00 annual membership fee +10p share certificate. I have 8 rods BTW
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A standard plot on our site is 5 poles although in reality they vary in size. The 2010 rent for a standard plot will be £11, i.e. £2.20 per pole. This includes water.
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Nice to see I am paying second lowest when you fetch the OAP discount into effect.
That is I actually pay £1-44 / pole, and that includes water, access to the community hut, and a third share of the communal tunnel.
Because I order the farm yard manure for the site, the farmer gives me my load for free!so that saves me £20
The council also drops off two or three loads of wood chippings each year as part of there 'recycling regime'
Then I make a few bob from selling a few plants each year, last season I sold about £50 worth.
So all in all I guess I am pretty well off! 8) ;D
Shhhhhhhhhhhhh! don't tell the council they are looking for ways to increase taxes and if they see this it might give them ideas ;)
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The average rate is £3.99 per pole and that includes water and any mandatory fees.
Here's the 5-pole league table - the pole rate for a five-pole plot
£1.20 reddyreddy
£1.54 heloise
£2.20 BAK
£2.20 ktlawson
£2.30 kea
£2.34 Lucho
£2.40 saddad
£2.50 digindep
£2.60 tonybloke (without water)
£2.90 springs
£2.93 TeeGee
£3.40 lavenderlux
£3.40 Trevor_D
£3.57 1066
£3.70 Sparkly
£3.80 tonybloke (with water)
£4.00 BarriedaleNick
£4.12 Bill Door
£4.40 Squash64
£4.71 Unwashed
£5.50 manicscousers
£5.50 SMP1704
£6.00 PurpleHeather
£6.75 Digeroo
£6.94 theothermarg
£6.96 cornykey
£8.63 brian4951
£8.77 Twoflower
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i am paying £53 per annum for a 300 sq yard plot. there are no toilets or water pipes on the plot
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Welcome to A4A Pooh's Tao
Whereabouts is that exactly?
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I think I've got about 10 poles, the plot's a shade over 5m wide and about 50m long, so about 300 sq yards and a pole is 30 square yards yes?
I pay 15 a year total, so 1.50 a pole......there are water troughs but hozes are out and there's no toilet
chrisc
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Welcome to A4A Pooh's Tao
Whereabouts is that exactly?
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thanks. it's st. johns lane bristol. lovely view over the city. there are small water butts around the site but no running water
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Average rate currently stands at £3.95/pole. That's a sweet deal you've got there Chris, though reddyreddy just pips you at £1.20/pole.
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Does every site have a half-price policy for over-sixties? Ours does, so my rent is only £14 a year.
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We did but not any more.
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I always threaten to charge them more.... after all they have the time to enjoy it... :-X
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I have just copied this from Wandworth Council's site one line If you want to add it to the list.....................
Cost and size of allotments
Rents are due on 1 October. Prices are revised each year.
Yearly costs
Full rate
£15.50 per rod or 62p per square metre each year
(1 rod = 25 square metres)
Concessionary rate (for people over 60 years old or with a disability)
£10 per rod or 40p per square metre
Example
Cost for a plot of 2 to 3 rods (50 to 75 square metres)
Full rate: £31 to £46.50
Concessionary rate: £20 to £30
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BTW, our plot is part of an ancient charity allotment site not council run. There are no toilets or parking and for water a trough, maybe you pay more the better the facilities are - I'm NOT complaining mind, love our oasis! :)
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Thanks PurpleHeather, that certainly drags the average up - it's now £4.33/pole for a sample of 31 sites.
reddyreddy, you'd think facilities might correlate with cost, but not so - Newbury Town Council wanted to charge £25/pole for pretty much what you describe, but our sites do have car parks, especially the site by the council offices where the officers park their cars; that has a lovely car park, but then they did spend several thousand pounds of the allotment budget on it.
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For sunny London Borough of Merton we have:
Annual allotment rent Charge per 25m² (1 rod) from 01/10/09
Adult rate £10.00
Concession 1 Reduced rent for unemployed,over 60, and registered disabled £7.00
Reduced rent for juniors, unemployed or those in receipt of supplementary benefit £5.00
OC
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Hi Unwashed
I'm an allotment holder at West Mills and I agree the rent rise was a surprise but I do think that people of 70 and over should only pay half. As for your statement on the carpark there I wish to disagree. I spoke to one of the workers putting the materials down and they told me it cost a couple of hundred as it was recycled. I am puzzled why you have the opinion that it cost so much. I also know that all tenants, old and new pay the same amount. Our steward there is very helpful and always very friendly and approachable and any opinions we have he passes onto the council, does your steward do the same for you?. I do not always agree with what the council do but I am sure they do listen to us.
I understand that soon our allotment will be starting an association and I cannot wait. It would be good to see how they compare. With regards Treacle
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I've just had my invoice in.
£6.30 per pole my 6 poles = £37.80
+£5.40 for water but a 50% reduction this year because water leaks in the summer and most of the site struggled to get water =£2.70
Total = £40.50 £6.75 per pole inc water.
I've confused myself so I'm sure you are ???
Total to pay =£40.50 or £3.37.5 per month
I bet that gets Unwashed thinking, but what about Brian who started the thread ??? PS. Fossils get a 50% discount, I don't begrudge them that, after all they did fight in the war for us. :-X ;D ;D ;D
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In Reigate 10 Rod plots have just gone up from £33 to £35 with half price for OAP's.
The allotment association however has had its council rent increased from £900 pa to £10,000 pa (negotiated down from £18,000)
So after this year no more allotment association trading hut >:(
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Hi All
The average price of £4-33 appears to be wrong.
Because a pole TWO years ago had the average overall rate of £4-40
And a SE rate of £5-20 per pole
How can the price drop 0.07p per pole overall and 0-87p per pole in the SE over two years, when everyone moans at the massive price increases.
The above rates were based on a poll of 86 samples.
This poll appears to be loading the rates shown with very few in the higher range shown and a lot more shown for the low rates. Which gives an artificially low rate per pole?
This pole also has a lot less samples than the older one.
Unless you compare like with like it is meaningless and pointless.
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Hi All
The average price of £4-33 appears to be wrong.
Because a pole TWO years ago had the average overall rate of £4-40
And a SE rate of £5-20 per pole
How can the price drop 0.07p per pole overall and 0-87p per pole in the SE over two years, when everyone moans at the massive price increases.
The above rates were based on a poll of 86 samples.
This poll appears to be loading the rates shown with very few in the higher range shown and a lot more shown for the low rates. Which gives an artificially low rate per pole?
This pole also has a lot less samples than the older one.
Unless you compare like with like it is meaningless and pointless.
and your point is...................................?
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Hi Kev, yes, that's how I worked out the rates. I worked out the cost of both a five pole and ten pole plot with all the compulsory charges like water and association membership, then divided by 5 and 10 respectively.
Hi Treacle, welcome to A4A. I have some recollection that it originally cost them £4k several years ago but I might be wrong and it's difficult to find the record of it. There was an estimate in the 2008 service plan for £3k so that might be it, but I'm not sure. If you're interested you could ask the Council under the Freedom of Information Act for the total amount spent in the last ten years on the car park. But you formed your site association in the Summer didn't you?
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Hi All
The average price of £4-33 appears to be wrong.
Because a pole TWO years ago had the average overall rate of £4-40
And a SE rate of £5-20 per pole
How can the price drop 0.07p per pole overall and 0-87p per pole in the SE over two years, when everyone moans at the massive price increases.
The above rates were based on a poll of 86 samples.
This poll appears to be loading the rates shown with very few in the higher range shown and a lot more shown for the low rates. Which gives an artificially low rate per pole?
This pole also has a lot less samples than the older one.
Unless you compare like with like it is meaningless and pointless.
Wypraszam sobie! Always with the pole-bashing
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very clever, UW ;D ;D 8)
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15 ft x 60 ft £19.50. there's a slight size variation of plots but I think thats the price overall. 20 plots 3 water tanks. Council run. Sorry dont no what a pole measures and as you can see still working in feet, inches and yards ;D ;D
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vegwise@bt,
in lieu of NSALG doing another survey (their last one was 13-14 years ago) all private surveys are going to suffer from being limited to small samples. This includes the one that you mention from a couple of years back. While the resultant level of accuracy may be questionable I think that they do provide a broad indicator. I have seen 5 such surveys in the last 2 years and they all point to an average of between £4 and £5 per pole.
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Hi Kevin
Thank you for the welcome, I find this site very informative and interesting, people have such good ideas. We had a meeting in the summer to see how many people were interested in forming an association and had a great response so there is a meeting next month to select a committee. I have only had my allotment a couple of years so maybe they spent more money on the carpark before that. :). Im really only a novice at this but find it very theraputic and get lots of advice from the other allotment holders. with regards
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Plymouth council allotment info.
'The rent charge for half plot is £14.53 per annum. Water charges are split equally between all tenants on each site; this charge varies according to tenant usage, but is normally no more than £15 per year. There is also a one off, non-refundable charge of £5 for a site key.'
(Sites vary considerably some have facilities and some dont..)
'Due to extremely high demand for allotments, we are currently able to offer half plots to new applicants. This will be anything up to 179m2.'
Thats all I could get about the sizes.
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Just got my renewal letter. The charge has not gone up this year- still £20 (having one up gradually from £9 three years ago! It's a big plot (don'tknow how many poles) but no facilities or water.
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Hate maths! Here, there are 20 and 40 rod plots (I think).
Small are roughly 16 yds x 7 yds = 112 sq yds
112 sq yds divided by 5.5 = 20 rod approx ???
Anyhow, the rate is £12.50 a year and £25 a year, to go up to £15 and £30 in 2011. This seems cheap, looking at other posts.
Limited supply of water in 2 cisterns on site (officially no hoses). No association. Council cut main grass path once a month for 8 months of the year. No main hut or toilets, no electricity. The soil is very heavy clay, litlle natural topsoil, and about a foot above the water table. There is plenty of free horsemuck locally if you are prepared to barrow it, vehicle access is almost impossible except in high summer.
There are 36 plots on site, 19 small, 17 large. Of these, approx half are properly worked, the other half seem to get taken on and folks mess about then give up or get evicted at the end of the year.
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jennym,
a pole is 5.5 yards squared, ie approx. 30 sq. yards.
112 sq yards is therefore just under 4 poles.
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Hi UW
JA tylko mówią angielski, sorry about the pole bashing ;D it should have been poll.
However I like your sense of Humour :D :D :D
Even if your polls a bit shaky ?
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Hi tonybloke
Read the last line of my origanl post IS the point. :o
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Hi tonybloke
Read the last line of my origanl post IS the point. :o
We all know this, but, we can only work with what we have, unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world.. This thread was never meant to be anything except a 'rough guide' price comparison, why are you knocking it??
have you done a better piece of research, perhaps? ;)
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Hi Tonybloke,
I would not be knocking it if it was only a rough guide, however UW in the allotment movement forum is using it to attack his local council which I think is a bit much :(
My council may not be the best in the world but I would not use a forum to keep knocking them in an area that they can not hit back or question my info. ???
I had some complaints about my council and I sent in a letter that they could respond to and question my information. :(
Both problems where resolved with least harm to both parties and we have a good tenant / landlord relationship :D
I do understand that any poll is only as good as the information available to it, and it is a rough guide, if its used as such. ;)
VW
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I know of several rents that are a d**n site cheaper than those on 'the list', i.e.£5 for 10 rod in 1 village where my parents live, and another one where the price is 1 penny per year per plot, (but no fences, trees or sheds allowed.) but these would really skew the findings of any survey.
because of the many different types of allotment sites, and different ownerships, (some city council / borough council / parish council / private company) and the different budgets and responsibilites that these various bodies have to meet, there can never be a 'average' rent. (mean / mode / median)?? pick your type of average?
I do agree that direct contact with official bodies is usually the best way forward, after all, what are your local councillors for??
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jennym,
a pole is 5.5 yards squared, ie approx. 30 sq. yards.
112 sq yards is therefore just under 4 poles.
Thanks, BAK, thought my figures looked a bit dodgy, was a bit confused about whether poles were length or area, your figures make more sense ;D
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Hi All
The average price of £4-33 appears to be wrong.
Because a pole TWO years ago had the average overall rate of £4-40
And a SE rate of £5-20 per pole
How can the price drop 0.07p per pole overall and 0-87p per pole in the SE over two years, when everyone moans at the massive price increases.
The above rates were based on a poll of 86 samples.
This poll appears to be loading the rates shown with very few in the higher range shown and a lot more shown for the low rates. Which gives an artificially low rate per pole?
This pole also has a lot less samples than the older one.
Unless you compare like with like it is meaningless and pointless.
vegwise, I've described the methodology I've used to arrive at the figure of £4.33. I've calculated the average rate for both a five and ten pole plot, because after discussion that looked like representative plots sizes, and then I've combined the two to give a headline average.
I've used every rate members have posted. It's a public forum, and you can do the math yourself if you want. I can't help it if £4.33 in inconvenient for you, but it's the result fromthis sample. Because the frequency distribution is poisson and not guassian the median is actually a better metric, and that's £3.70/pole for a 5-pole plot, and £3.00/pole for a 10-pole plot.
Read my post: My criticism of Newbury Town Council is that they are running their service so inefficiently that thay spend £73.23 per plot on administration, and that their appalling inefficiency, and their refusal even to discuss the possibility of the tenants contributing to site maintenance, requires them to subsidise the service to the tune of £90.18, and because of this subsidy - haemorrhaging £1,000 per week - the Council will not create new allotment sites to accomodate the 100+ tax-paying residents on the waiting list, despite it being their legal duty.
And I am protesting this gross disrespect to the Newbury tax-payer here because 1. it's an allotment forum, and 2. none of the Leader, Deputy Leader, no Chair of Community Service would even reply to the Society's private request to discuss the matter, and 3. because several members and oficers of the Council have accounts on A4A.
Would you like to explain your particular interest in me now?
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I'm using a bit of statistics to quantify the likely range of the national average rates. It's explained after the ranking if you're interested in that kind of thing.
I'm 90% confident that
For a five pole plot the average rate is in the range £3.90 - £5.45, and is most likely £4.67/pole.
For a ten pole plot the average rate is in the range £3.70 - £5.26, and is most likely £4.48/pole.
Here's the current ranking:
£1.20 reddyreddy
£1.50 chriscross1966
£1.54 heloise
£2.20 BAK
£2.20 ktlawson
£2.30 kea
£2.34 Lucho
£2.40 saddad
£2.50 digindep
£2.60 tonybloke (without water)
£2.90 springs
£2.93 TeeGee
£3.35 jennym
£3.40 lavenderlux
£3.40 Trevor_D
£3.50 raisedbedted
£3.57 1066
£3.70 Sparkly
£3.80 tonybloke (with water)
£4.00 BarriedaleNick
£4.12 Bill Door
£4.40 Squash64
£5.30 Poohs Tao
£5.50 manicscousers
£5.50 SMP1704
£5.85 taurus
£5.91 Mortality
£6.00 PurpleHeather
£6.75 Digeroo
£6.84 cornykey
£6.94 theothermarg
£6.94 Unwashed
£8.63 brian4951
£8.77 Twoflower
£10.00 Old Central
£15.50 PurpleHeather
What we really want to know is the average rate for every allotment site in the country, but it's difficult to do that and the best we can do is look at a sample. Intuitively it's obvious that the bigger the sample the more accurately our estimate reflects the actual national rate, but it would be nice to quantify that somehow.
The Central Limit Theorem does that. It says that the mean value of a sample is approximately normally distributed about the population mean with a variance of 1/n x the population variance, where n is the sample size, and the bigger the sample, the better the approximation. It's simple to estimate the population variance from the sample variance, and because the distribution is normal we know, for a given level of confidence, the likely range of the population mean.
So, at 90% confidence, the actual mean rate is in the range
m +/- 1.64 x sd/sqrt(n)
where sd is sqrt(n/n+1) x sample standard deviation, and m is the sample mean.
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*hit the wrong button, sorry*
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Hi UW,
Don’t flatter yourself I have no more interest in you than any one else.
However your posts stand out like a sore thumb, because they are full of anger and it appears that you are very upset at your council, have they turned you down for a job or something?
I am not interested in political ramblings, 2 Led Zeppelin songs spring to mind – ‘Ramble on’ and ‘The Song remains the same’.
My only interest is what rates other people pay (they stick to the point) as a rough guide, what you say about your council is your affair.
Your rates have now risen from a range of £3-70 to £4-33, to a new range of £3-90 to £5-45 five poles or £3-70 to £5-26 ten poles, which I feel, is more realistic in the real world.
My point is,
No matter what you pay per pole from £1-20 to £15-50, does it matter if some people pay a few pound more or if some people pay a few pound less? If at the end of the day you personally obtain pleasure and enjoyment out of having an allotment then it must be worth paying. It appears to me that you obtain neither?
What other pastime / hobby is so cheap where you can visit as many times as you like, stay as long as you like and grow what you like, with in reason, for a yearly yes we are talking about a YEARLY not weekly or month average fee of between £3-90 to £5-45 per pole for five poles or if you like £3-70 to £5-26 per pole for ten poles.
VW
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I would love to know how you have got our fees up to being the most expensive
our rent is £30 for a year that includes
Membership of an association
Insurance cover from that association
Rent of the land from the owner
As much water as you want from a stand pipe (one between two plots)
The site is secured with a minimum of six feet of fence or hedging
Roads and paths are maintained and are stone
There is a car park on site
Free manure kept in storage.
Free wood chip
The size and shape of the plots does vary a lot due to the odd shape of the area we have and the plot holders who prefer to manage a smaller area due to infirmity. Most of the plots are bigger than those on a lot of other allotment sites.
I feel sure if you have got that pricing wrong then you must have with the others too.
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I would love to know how you have got our fees up to being the most expensive
Oops! I'll see what I've done.
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I have just copied this from Wandworth Council's site one line If you want to add it to the list.....................
Full rate
£15.50 per rod or 62p per square metre each year
What am I missing?
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I have just copied this from Wandworth Council's site one line If you want to add it to the list.....................
Full rate
£15.50 per rod or 62p per square metre each year
What am I missing?
The only thing possibly missing from that would be the concessionary rate of £10 per rod.
http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/510/allotments/212/applying_for_an_allotment/2
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No, I'm not including concessions. The basis is a full-price five and ten pole plot with all of the compulsory costs like water, etc when they're charged separately, and none of the optional costs like association fees, etc when it's actually optional.
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What you are missing is that Wansworth council has nothing what so ever to do with me.
I gave you the information to help you compile your list from around the country.
Our site in the North West of England I had already given you the details of at £30 each for a year, 4 halved plots and the rest full sized.
The association fees are not optional either. The only way to get public liability insurance for an allotment site is by being members of an association.
As you will know. Public Liability insurance is a legal requirement for an allotment site.
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The association fees are not optional either. The only way to get public liability insurance for an allotment site is by being members of an association.
As you will know. Public Liability insurance is a legal requirement for an allotment site.
There is no legal requirement for an allotment site (that is, the landlord or managing association) to have public liability insurance (unless it's a horse riding establishment), and public liability insurance will cover the landlord's liability to the public in general, not just members of the association - that's the whole point.
Are you thinking about some kind of personal accident insurance that an association might provide for its members as a benefit?
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Obviously you know more about the law than our council's legal department.
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According to the Association of British Insurers there is no legal requirement to have public liability for allotments. Most councils seem to enjoy coming up with new suggestions for health & safety measures on a regular basis though & insisting plotholders take out public liability policies gives the tabloids something to write about even if the council do have to deny saying it a few days later.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-460538/Danger-A-5m-injury-risk-allotment.html
http://www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk/news/1464498.allotment_claims_refuted_by_parish_council/
The council/landlord will frequently choose to have a policy which covers communal areas of the site & advise the plotholders they may wish to consider insurance but plotholders are under no obligation to do so.
In the event an allotment association chooses to have an insurance policy which covers all plotholders or an individual plotholder wanted their own policy then a combined Public Liability/Employers Liability policy would be more appropriate in most instances as it covers people who help you on a voluntary basis not just the general public.
• Public Liability Insurance: Provides cover if someone sues you because a member of the public (vandals or other plotholders trespassing on your plot etc...) is injured or dies as a result of negligence on the allotment. For example, if someone is seriously injured tripping over an uncoiled hosepipe. Cover up to £5m is usual.
• Employers Liability Insurance: If anyone helps you on your allotment – even on a voluntary basis – Employers Liability Insurance protects you against claims for their injury or death. Cover of £5m is the legal requirement.
• Combined Public Liability Employers Liability: It is usually cheaper for allotment associations and plot holders to buy combined cover rather than purchasing two separate policies.
• Professional Indemnity Insurance: Covers allotment associations in the event that someone loses money as a result of dealing with them. I can't imagine a situation where this would actually be required but if you were being paranoid cautious then cover could be obtained for an allotment site.
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superb info Baccyman, as per usual!!!!
Our association has public and employers liability cover, btw. :)
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As I say, Our council tells us that we have to have the insurance, they say it is our legal obligation to have cover as an association.
It is a matter of no insurance, no allotments. No association membership, no insurance.
That is a condition they have stipulated and their reasons for doing so.
And I still have nothing what so ever to do with Wandsworth Council nor their charges which is the main issue
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I pay £20 inclusive of water for about 180 sq yards - 5 poles? ish
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Like Tonybloke's site - we have both public & employers liability insurance. I don't care whether it's a legal requirement or not - as far as I'm concerned, it's essential.
We charge £17, inclusive of water, insurance & everything else, for a five pole plot.
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Trevor, may I ask who your insurers are and how much it costs? We have no insurance afaik and it's a nagging worry.
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It's done through NSALG - a company called NewSpace. Last year I spent several days phoning around to get a better deal and couldn't find one. You have to be affiliated to get the insurance, and that in itself costs £2 per head - that's why we charge £4 per member supplement (regardless of how much land is rented).
But then members can get their £4 back by putting in an order for King's Seeds. (And - although it was the first time we'd ever done it, and not many members ordered, we still made nearly £60 profit for the Society!)
Details are in the NSALG magazine (or pm me).
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For allotment Insurance:-
http://www.rsib.co.uk/The-Allotments-Insurance-Scheme_3_0_15_23_info.html
It is probably the least expensive one, specially negotiated. The snag is that there is an excess and membership of the association is £1 per member per year.
You may consider the likelyhood of a claim being remote, the saving on the annual premium and association fee soon covers it.
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Anywho - If you haven't already posted your allotment rent please do. Ideally I want to know the all-in cost of both a five and a ten pole plot, but if you don't know that then just your own rent and the size of your plot would be great. The more samples we have the more accurately we can tell what the national average rent is. Ta.
As it stands, assuming you want a five-pole plot:
averate rate is somewhere between £3.88/pole and £5.39/pole and is most likely £4.64/pole
and if you get a ten pole plot the rate's about 20p/pole cheaper.
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Thanks Trevor and PH! UW sorry for the diversion. BTW you have my plot cost. It's the same (pro rats) for all our plot holders.
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We charge £100 per year for a 10 pole plot and £60 for a 5 pole plot, that includes water and insurance for our member and public liability insurance. We do discount if people have more than one plot, I realise this sounds a lot however as a private allotments business we have had to cover the cost of the land purchased just over a year ago, Around here this seems to be the standard rent for private allotments although there is one which charges 3 times our price for a much smaller plot!
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"Newspace" are now part of "Bluefin" but it hasn't changed much... :)
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*boing*
If you haven't already posted your allotment rent please do. Ideally I want to know the all-in cost of both a five and a ten pole plot, but if you don't know that then just your own rent and the size of your plot would be great. The more samples we have the more accurately we can tell what the national average rent is. Ta.
As it stands, assuming you want a five-pole plot:
averate rate is somewhere between £3.88/pole and £5.39/pole and is most likely £4.64/pole
and if you get a ten pole plot the rate's about 20p/pole cheaper.