Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => Allotment Movement => Topic started by: Unwashed on November 12, 2009, 13:28:54
-
This came up in the discussion about the Independent Safeguarding Authority (http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,56243.msg572691.html#msg572691) and the requirement to be CRB-checked if you work with children and vulnerable adults on the allotment, but it's a common issue.
I suggest that children should not be prevented by the site management from having and working their own plots unsupervised if that is what their parents consider appropriate.
-
Would you clarify what age you are talking about please.
-
Given the brief enthusiasms of a lot of teenagers, I think I'd want to see a parent involved. But that being said, some could undoubtedly manage a plot.
-
Unwashed, you probably know more about the legal position than I do, but I suspect that this is the crux. At what age can you legally sign the papers to rent an allotment? 14? 16?
I don't see any problems about children actually working an allotment; as an ex-teacher I'm fully aware they are capable of vastly more than we poor adults think possible. We have an 11-year old who runs a very prosperous plot in conjunction with his father - and as far as we're all concerned it's his plot, not dad's!
But our rules state that it's the actual plot-holder who is responsible for family and guests - and should be on site when they are - so if the child can't sign the papers, they are not the plot-holder.
(I'm not anti-kids. Far from it! They're the future! Just want to get the legal bit sorted....)
-
My granddaugher, 12 and my other grandchildren hate my allotment, and if they are naughty, I will take you to the allotment. Apparently the rate for an barrow full of soil is not the 50p I thought they should be grateful for but just a lot of moans. Spoilt brats, but don't tell Mum or Dad.
-
My son's great with the allotment, he helps me to clear the weeds, picks out stones and digs, he makes my job so much easier...............but he's only 18 months ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
our 11 yr old grandson has taken over 2 small beds this year, he's already planted up 3 different types of onion, garlic, sowed and planted out overwinter peas(in our poly), took over one of our vines and a trough of strawberries, planted up one of my leaf bags with potatoes, he is always supervised on site :)
-
I think that it is dreadful that people are no longer allowed to have contact with children. Instead of keeping the dangerous people under suitable supervision, somehow everyone has become guilty. We seem to be supervising the innocent majority.
There are lots of children around our allotments its great.
-
Squash, I don't have an age in mind, other than children being under 18. The point is that it's a matter for their parents to decide whether they're responsible enough. I know 30 year olds who couldn't cope with the responsibility, and 11 year olds who would thrive on the independence.
Trevor, the thing with a contract is that you can't enforce it against an under-18, so there is a legal difficulty, though it could be overcome by renting to the parent, and rules and procedures would need to accomodate children being plot-holders in their own right.
And no, I don't suppose many kids would want to be allotmenteers, but I think it's very wrong to make rules to prohibit it.
-
As an ex teacher I think you might be surprised at how many kids are keen on growing things - At one time I ran an allotment club, until some adults in a van nicked all the kid's and my produce.
I was gardening seriously by the age of 11 and I know one kid of 12 in our town who was after an allotment.
A parent would have to sign for it and be ultimately be responsible but i think it is harsh to insist on the parent being there, and I think going overboard on the matter.
The kid might want to do some gardening after school while parents are still at work and why not? You are not supervising them, you are not having close contact with them. It is no different than if you see a child in a public place like a park. Now if you are supervising kids on a plot, mentoring them on a regular basis or teaching them then that is a different matter.
The only problem I think we have with kids is making parents responsible for their behaviour ie. bringing little kids down and letting them run all over the place. Most wont do that but there can always be one!
-
I disagree with Unwashed. Unsupervised children pose a site-wide issue. The child may be the only person on the site at a given time and there may well be safety issues to consider as well as the occasional ill-behaved child.
I consider that the site management or council should have defined rules in place with respect to the ages of unsupervised children that are allowed. There should however ideally be a clause which allows them, at their discretion, to override the rule to cater for any child that they consider can be treated as any other adult.
-
I suggest that children should not be prevented by the site management from having and working their own plots unsupervised if that is what their parents consider appropriate.
I think you are assuming that all parents are sensible and realistic about what their children should and should not be allowed to do.
-
I think you are assuming that all parents are sensible and realistic about what their children should and should not be allowed to do.
I am uncomfortable with the idea that I (or for that matter anyone else) am batter qualified than the parent to make that decision.
Unsupervised children pose a site-wide issue. The child may be the only person on the site at a given time and there may well be safety issues to consider as well as the occasional ill-behaved child.
Specifically, what safety issues can there be that need no mitigation for the general public but yet are significant enough to prohibit unsupervised children altogether? Do you suppose an allotment site is any less safe than a shopping centre, or a main road, or a piece of waste ground, or a school playground? Is it possible that 'safety issues' are used as an excuse for excluding children?
It's not a matter of ill-behaved children, the issue is ill-behaved people, and I would expect a site already to have a rule to deal with that eventuality.
-
I am uncomfortable with the idea that I (or for that matter anyone else) am batter qualified than the parent to make that decision.
Sorry, but I disagree with this. Being a parent does not automatically give someone common sense. A young boy of about 6 was running around his dad's plot, holding a bamboo cane, pretending it was a sword. The dad couldn't see any danger in this. What should I have done? Waited until the boy tripped over and impaled himself on the cane?
I don't want to exclude children from allotment sites, far from it. But I believe that they do need supervision.
-
A parent is responsible for their child's safety and well being.
If an allotment society gives permission for a child to be on site unsupervised, then it could be argued that the society has taken over that role when they are on site, in the same way a school is responsible for the children's safety when they are on school grounds.
I don't think that is something a society would want to take on.
Also, the site should have third party insurance, if you allowed unsupervised children how would that affect the insurance?
-
If they( the parents) took control of the underlings, This would help in there understanding of the place they are in.
I had an allotment down Plymouth, and my two eldest of which one is keen to have a go and the other is not. They were always supervised on the plot.
When we moved to Bedford the other two came along and this meant we needed a lottie.
They have again been supervised not only to see how things were done, but also to see what was safe and what was not.
In my time as a responsible parent on the lottie, I have ensured that the children were allowed a certain amount of leeway.
They have been a good source of future gardeners, and the son has now sourced a plot in Cambridge for the students. He hopes to include this in his studies involving the creatures who frequent the lottie and those which are resident also.
He also wants to understand why there are plants which are loved by pests and those who prefer the native flora.
To get back to the point in question, I feel it is up to the parent which needs to control access on the lottie. If the child rebels then the parent should be warned of this. If they persist then a warning by letter should be issued. If this fails then the final notice of termination should be written out ands the plot holder have their allotment tenure suspended.
I know that times have changed but surely we can use the law and common sense to get through any problem that may arise.
-
I don't think that chidren should be allowed to wander around an allotment site without there being a responsible adult present. I know that on many sites there could be all sorts of dangers for them. Tenants without sheds tend to leave all sorts lying around. Not only tools that could be dangerous if used incorrectly but also various items such as insecticdes, jeyes fluid and weed killers, not always in the correct containers. Children are well known for being inquisitive- a good thing- but not on a site that is aimed in the main for adults. Some of whom have no children and maybe might not be as careful as parents with potentionally dangerous items, after all why should they. Children as part of a family group tending a plot is to be encouraged but children on their own to be discouraged. That is my feelings on the subject, others think differently and I respect their feelings and hope that there are no incidents occurring that could ahve been avoided, Children are very precious but left on their own without guidance, can be a very nasty accident waiting to happen.
I often take my 3 year old grandson over to my plots but never leave him to wander. Once he get fidgety then home we go. Sometimes I could do wihth longer on the site but his well being comes first.
-
Squash, I wouldn't expect many six-yearolds to be responsible enough to work an allotment on their own, but at 17, or 16, or 14, or 12? Is it healthy that we should institutionally exclude people because of their age? Doesn't this disenfranchise the youth and cause anti-social behaviour? Would it be any more acceptable to ban unaccompanied over-sixtyfives?
Conthehill, before you think about insurance you need to understand your liabilities. The site management owe a duty of care to anyone on site, whether they're there legitimately or not (Occupier's Liability Act 1984), so the site management always need to manage the risk to children because even if the site bans unaccompanied children, it's reasonably forseeable that children will come on site unaccompanied, even if they do it by breaking in. If your insurance only covers loss and damage to adults that does nothing to limit your liability to children, so if you chose to take out public liability insurance you probably want to make sure it covers children whether they're allowed on site unsupervised or not. Remember though, the site management's responsibility is only for common areas and unlet plot, whatever happens on an allotmenteer's plot is her lookout.
As for arguing that an allotment authority has responsibility for children on site in the same was as a school does, well you can make the argument, but it has no merit.
On a Council allotment I would challenge the Council's power to make a rule banning unaccompanied children because it is not obvious that the Allotments Acts allow it.
-
Squash, I wouldn't expect many six-yearolds to be responsible enough to work an allotment on their own, but at 17, or 16, or 14, or 12?
I agree, but when I asked you what age you meant, you said
"Squash, I don't have an age in mind, other than children being under 18."
-
On our site. We have a notice that children should be accompanied by an adult at all times. I like it that way. Our plots are beside the nature area where there is a pool to attract wildlife. The area of the pool itself is fenced off and there is a large notice warning people of the danger of children going in there alone. If this were not so then I wouldn't get any gardening done at all because I would be watching to make sure that they didn't go in there.
We have my daughter and her 3 youngest chidren who come to the plot regularly through out the summertime and have done so since they were small. They know exactly how far from our plots that they are allowed to go and no further.I think that this is a sensible rule as we can stay in sight with each other. They have been taught that they must never go on anyone elses plot. As is the rule for grown ups too.
-
Like I have said before on other topics relating to this....children on the allotments are fine by me.....BUT...they should be accompanied and not left to roam on other plots.
We are insured but I still would not want a child to wonder onto my plot and hurt his or herself on something I had left laying around.
-
On a Council allotment I would challenge the Council's power to make a rule banning unaccompanied children because it is not obvious that the Allotments Acts allow it.
I look forward to reading about your exploits
-
we have notices up also, shirley..I would worry about their safety if they were alone on the site :)
-
I would certainly worry about children's safety if they were alone of the site. I worry about mine, especially as it dark so early. Old people (like me) should be banned as I don't take my mobile phone, leave it in the kitchen drawer, and the other day all alone on the allotment and I tripped over, luckily I managed to get up. Told OH and he said someone would either look for you the next day, either at the tennis club or the allotment. Margaret, the old lady who had to give up her allotment, always called out to me, as she was registered blind, told her she should have a mobile but she said she couldn't see the numbers and had no-one to ring. She was quite philosophic about it and said someone would find her eventually. I don't like to be the last person on the plot, and the man who feeds the cat always tells me to go home if it too late. (Sorry, off topic, again).
-
Like I have said before on other topics relating to this....children on the allotments are fine by me.....BUT...they should be accompanied and not left to roam on other plots.
Why do you assume that a child who is responsible and keen enough to have her own allotment and work it without her parents' supervision is going to roam on other plots?
Our plots are beside the nature area where there is a pool to attract wildlife. The area of the pool itself is fenced off and there is a large notice warning people of the danger of children going in there alone.
Why do you assume that a child who is responsible and keen enough to have her own allotment and work it without her parents' supervision is going to wander into the wildlife pond and drown?
-
Joshua Clark (http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/Green-finger-teen-sowing-seeds-success-love-veg/article-361372-detail/article.html), 14, from Ripley, won a civic award for his allotment last year.
-
I think 16 would be a suitable age to help on a plot without mum and dad always there. 18 would be more sensible if they wanted to take it on on their own. Surely there is something in the bye-laws, 5/6 years having an allotment. This is a ridiculous thread, young children alone on a plot, just think of all the dangers, apart from the obvious temptation of a bonfire. We have one child that I can't take to, he is left to roam, and teases the chickens and jumps off the water butts and the parents take no notice. Probably just bored but I do watch him if I am there and make sure he doesn't hurt himself.
-
I think 14 is a good age to expect a child to be responsible.
Any younger ,unsupervised is a no no in my opinion.
You can imagine it can't you,a kid having an accident three plots down and it would be your fault for not keeping an eye on him.
I don't go to the lottie to keep an eye on other people's kids and yes I am assuming they would get into trouble because that is what kids do.
-
we have a 13 yr old lad on our site, and he's a bloody good gardener!!
-
Tony, does he work unsupervised?
-
Like I have said before on other topics relating to this....children on the allotments are fine by me.....BUT...they should be accompanied and not left to roam on other plots.
Why do you assume that a child who is responsible and keen enough to have her own allotment and work it without her parents' supervision is going to roam on other plots?
Our plots are beside the nature area where there is a pool to attract wildlife. The area of the pool itself is fenced off and there is a large notice warning people of the danger of children going in there alone.
Why do you assume that a child who is responsible and keen enough to have her own allotment and work it without her parents' supervision is going to wander into the wildlife pond and drown?
Ok..if you are going to be picky....Im talking small kiddies here.Any child old enough to have an allotment(and what age are we talking here?) should by my reckoning be sensible enough not to walk all over someone elses plot.
We recently had 2 families take over a plot and they brought along 5 kids...who immediately wandered onto the nieghbouring plot where the plot holder had planted his winter onions and garlic!.Admittedly,they were quick to realise the problem but the damage had already been done.
-
I have seen the same happen on our site. We cannot expect children to automatically know where they can and cannot go. They have to be taught.
Hopefully this is what plotholders should do when they start to take their children to the allotment site. Sometimes this just does not happen so they wander onto other peoples plots.
-
Tony, does he work unsupervised?
yes he does, and organises a load of muck to be delivered in the half-term, so he can start to dig it in thru' the autumn.!! His parents do come down with him sometimes, but mostly to help with the harvest. he lives adjascent to the site, his grandparents have had a plot there for years, it must be in the blood!!
-
Thanks Tony, that makes the point better that I could.
If an under-eighteen wants an allotment why should their age be an issue? They'll be subject to just the same rules as anyone else so any restriction on the basis of their age is arbitrary. If there's a question of the child's capability or responsibility then that's a matter between the child and her parents. Sure, we might not approve of other people's parenting decisions, but then we don't know their children as they do. If the child makes a success of it then what price can you put on that confidence and experience. And if they fail, well, plenty of new allotmenteers fail so where's the problem in that.
And what if a site does ban unaccompanied children? By the current reckoning it wouldn't make much difference because very few children work their own plots anyway, but then they wouldn't, would they, if there's a ban on unaccompanied children! And where there isn't a ban, let's face it, some grumpy old child-hating comudgen will inevitably make allotment life miserable for an unaccompanied child tenant, with complaints about this and that, because there's alwas someone on a site who like to tell other people what to do. And we're talking about the child here. If the child is tolerated on site when she's helping her parent that's not her hoby is it.
As far as capability and responsibility go I don't see any great difference between the demands of allotmenteering and fishing, so I'd be pretty sure that the reason children don't have allotments is not because there's something difficult, or dangerous, or even intrinsically naff about the hobby, but because they're excluded. And when a section of society is excluded that creates stress, so at the end of the day everyone suffers.
Bans on unaccompanied children are wrong. It's just plain on prejudice and intolerence. I'd like to see a campaign against it.
-
Subject says children on allotments, not young adults.
-
Can't talk for all Allotments,I have had three at different times in my life and when I go down on week days they are normally deserted.Maybe the odd person.They are not somewhere I would leave a Young child unsupervised.
14 is young enough....it is just common sense :)
-
Children == people under 18.
Sure Betula, and I'm defending your prerogative to say what's appropriate for your children, but just yours, no one else's.
-
So you think that it is OK for children to be left alone in a deserted place...............you lost me ages ago....no logic to the argument......... :)
Also I think by law you are obliged not to leave your children unattended..sticky wicket I reckon .
-
So you think that it is OK for children to be left alone in a deserted place?
No, I think it's the parent's prerogative to decide, because the parent is the proper person to make that decision, knowing the child's capabilities and the situation. If a parent tells their seventeen yearold that they can't go to the allotment on their own then who am I to disagree, and if the 13 yearold's parents from Tony's allotment say he can work his plot on his own I'd like to convince you on Tony's evidence that they've made a sound decision.
-
I think you've lost the plot Unwashed ;D
-
I wouldnt leave my child on my allotment even though he is 15! The reason is we have a child molestor on our site!
-
Bans on unaccompanied children are wrong. It's just plain on prejudice and intolerence. I'd like to see a campaign against it.]
You would be the first up in arms if a child was hurt on a plot!! health and safety class up to 16 years old to be a child and under parental control !
There are to many ways for an adult to get hurt on a plot let alone a child !
Our rules state all childern to remain on their parents plot under their controle.
No one is against childern on site but in this day and age of 'sue now' think later you just cant have the risk on site !
Think of a child tripping and landing on a cane :-[ or a sheet of glass or picking something that has just been sprayed !
We have a play area on site but we can not put swings ect in unless we put the rubber matting underneath.
-
Some people seem confused here. Nobody has suggested that little kids be left unsupervised but kids of 13? I have spent my whole career teaching secondary school kids and I think i have a pretty good idea of what kids are capable of doing. Allotments are now dangerous places???? Many of these kids go fishing, horseriding, into city centres on their own. A kid who is working an allotment is going to be very committed and the last person to go sneaking round or walking over other peoples' plots. They generally have to be fairly strong minded cause at that age "gardening isn't cool" with most of their peers. Such kids generally like to have a certain amount of independance of their parents, which they should be able to do at that age.
An allotment by its enclosed nature is likely to be much safer than the other types of places, with its fairly stable community of people. Where would you feel your teenage child was safest - on an allotment or in a city centre, or a river bank? Where we would they most likely be robbed or physically assaulted?
Our kids are suffering because they are being stifled by what is an often an over protective culture - remember we are talking about secondary school age here.
At that age I was living on the edge of a large city and I could disappear for hours and go miles and miles and that was normal in those days.We explored the countryside on our own and that made me develop an interest in nature and the environment. better than watching TV all day.
-
If an under-eighteen wants an allotment why should their age be an issue?
Bans on unaccompanied children are wrong. It's just plain on prejudice and intolerence. I'd like to see a campaign against it.
This is a wind-up, isn't it Unwashed?
-
If an under-eighteen wants an allotment why should their age be an issue?
Bans on unaccompanied children are wrong. It's just plain on prejudice and intolerence. I'd like to see a campaign against it.
This is a wind-up, isn't it Unwashed?
No.
-
If an under-eighteen wants an allotment why should their age be an issue?
Bans on unaccompanied children are wrong. It's just plain on prejudice and intolerence. I'd like to see a campaign against it.
This is a wind-up, isn't it Unwashed?
No.
Do you have any children yourself?
-
Err no. Is that significant?
-
This is a wind-up, isn't it Unwashed?
I think you got it in one Betty ;D
-
OK, so. Anyone actually want to engage seriously with the issues here?
-
Unless a child is actually refused an allotment due to their age then is there an issue to debate?
Has there even been a single instance where this has actually happened?
-
Not sure if many teenagers want to be on an allotment these days but if there are any I hope each association would look at their application on merit.
Gardening is "cool" and plants "rock" getting teenagers excited about this should be actively encouraged.
-
OK, so. Anyone actually want to engage seriously with the issues here?
Several people have given you their thoughts on the subject so not sure what more you want ?? :)
-
Unless a child is actually refused an allotment due to their age then is there an issue to debate?
Has there even been a single instance where this has actually happened?
I know one family on my site who's children can't now collect the eggs after a ban on unaccompanied children was introduced. These children are impecably behaved and there has never been anything even close to an issue with children on my site.
The trouble is that many children who would enjoy an allotment of their own don't even think of it as a possibility and so never get as far ask applying. Kids don't get to go outside on their own any more like we did when I was a kid, and I see no reason why allotments couldn't be reinvented as the new safe place for kids to get out and experience life in the fresh air. If we bent over backwards to welcome children as tenants and none took up the opportunity it would still be worthwhile because children are accutely aware of their sense of belonging in society, and would respond positively to the greater sense of inclusion: maybe children won't want to be allotmenteers, but they'll appreciate being asked.
70fingers, I agree, but more than that, I want every association to make an effort to recruit children members on the same terms as adults and show them that they are just as much a part of society as anyone else.
-
A lovely thought but you seem to have put the practical considerations to one side.
I don't remember growing up with any problems re what kids do and what adults do........and where the line was drawn.
And no.............I don't want to debate it ;D
-
The trouble is that many children who would enjoy an allotment of their own don't even think of it as a possibility and so never get as far ask applying.
I'm still not clear what age you are talking about. "Under 18" isn't specific. What would be the lower age?
-
The problem is unwashed is that I am sure we would all like an idealistic society but as you know this won't happen.
Remember - Parents are responsible for their children, and that a great deal of parents actively pursue this activity with their children. If children want to get involved in allotmenteering/gardening then its up to the parent to facilitate this - not local authorities/associations. Children are not excluded!
Gardening starts at home from the grass roots so to speak! :)
Allotment associations are independent and I for one wouldn't want to impose anything on them that they wouldn't feel able to deliver or be comfortable with.
If you feel really strongly about children gardening I am sure there are school projects that could do with some support. Schools are better placed to provide a safe environment for children.
I know some associations even allow schools to have a plot for this purpose.
Its an interesting debate, but we have to be realistic on what we can achieve in terms of encouraging children, teenagers and adults to pursue this activity.
-
The trouble is that many children who would enjoy an allotment of their own don't even think of it as a possibility and so never get as far ask applying.
I'm still not clear what age you are talking about. "Under 18" isn't specific. What would be the lower age?
I'm saying there shouldn't be an age limit, because capability isn't defined by age. Whether a child (that is, someone under 18) is capable of working on a plot unsupervised is a matter for the parent and it'll depend on the child and the situation. Setting an age limit will not guarantee that children over that age are capable, and any practical limit will inevitably exclude some very capable people.
But to illustrate: I'd have thought the average 14 yearold would be more than capable of managing their own allotment, and I wouldn't be overly surprised to find the odd 12 yearolds capable of working unsupervised, nor would I be distressed to find a lone 10 yearold fetching eggs or pulling parsnips, and neither would it surprise me to find a seventeen yearold who couldn't manage that simplest of tasks reliably. It depends on the child and the situation, and that's a choice for the parent.
-
I don't believe it, a fourteen year old managing an allotment. Yes with help with Mum, Dad and granddad. OK not stopping him/her, wouldn't like my granddaughter up there alone, especially as it gets dark early. They may think they are responsible at 14 but they are not, they cannot see the dangers, (which is good) but OK when other people are about but not to take on all that responsibility alone, 16 to 18 OK. Perhaps we should say they can come up when a responsible adult is there, to support them if there is any trouble, but have to go home if the plot is unoccupied. They smoke and drink in the local park, climb over the gates so an allotment may be a good place for a party. Our college student is great, comes alone sometimes but even at his age comes with friends or Dad.
-
I can't believe how 'ageist' some folk are!! we've got young folk allowed to go fishing, cycling, playing sport, sea-swimming, driving various types of cars/carts, riding motor-cycles, horses, and all other sorts of dangerous past-times, but not allowed to be an allotmenteer?? we have young kids bringing up babies, and even (in this town) a 14 yr old carer who looks after her disabled mum, runs the house, looks after her younger sibling, and manages to do well at school !! why can't they be responsible enough to have a plot of their own? It's not about age, it's ability and attitude that count, surely? (some 60 yr old folk can't be left on their own, so age can not be an excuse/reason)
(end of rant) ;)
-
Slightly off topic but I hate it when these kids are so admired for having to take over the running of a family............In a modern society like ours why can't these kids have a support system put into their homes so they should be enjoying their childhood,not some kid having to give up their childhood.Something precious and taken away for ever.
Why is it these days people want to see kids as mini adults all the time.??
My rant over.
-
Of course using age as a way of segregating people is always going to be a random kind of thing and there will always be exceptions to the general rule. What made 21 the age of maturity at one time and 18 at another? How come you can join the army or get married at 16 but not vote?
Personally I don't mind kids having allotments - not little kids but maybe teenagers? But then how will they have enough time to do homework, study, pass exams, play, help around the house, meet their mates...??The things that most well-balanced young folk choose to do. And god help them if they're also talented at sport or music or drama or anything that requires a lot of time and effort.
My kids and grandkids really enjoy working on my allotment (well some do, some don't) but frankly, if they started talking about getting a plot of their own I'd be gobsmacked. And I would discourage them. At their age they need to be experiencing all of life's dimensions and an allotment, with its huge time requirement would, IMHO, limit their growth and development as balanced human beings. Helping and learning how is quite enough.
Other parents might, of course, feel differently and that's OK. But if you have to choose between a 30 year old father of 4 and a 14 year old wanting an allotment that's where it gets difficult.
Also, as Trevor pointed out, there are legal issues around minors working plots and rights and responsibilities.
But it is a windup isn't it? :P
-
Why is it these days people want to see kids as mini adults all the time.??
Tell that to the kids in former times who went down mines and up chimneys before they reached double figures.
-
This topic started as to whether we allotment associations should have to worry about the new child protection legislation with regard to minors. I don't think it is relevent but it bothers me that some will use it to reinforce their prejudice against young people. And that prejudice seems to be here.
Most young people are very nice and honest, but get a bad name from the small minority who spoil it for others and i have spent all my working life working in "bog standard comprehensives". Some of the nicest were the ones who attended the gardening club. Some of them who were not well gifted in the brain department but they were committed, loyal and hard working. Unfortunately they could only work in lunchtimes, they lived too far away, and many schools don't have proper lunchtimes anymore.
I resent the implication that a 14 year old is incapable of having the committment or time to fit in an allotment. At that age I was the main gardener in my family and had outgrown the family garden and was on a n allotment waiting list. I wish that i had the opportunity to grow more at that age and so expand my knowledge earlier - I did not get to the top of the waiting list till I left home.
As for safety I know a lot of 14 year olds who are probably bigger and stronger than most on this forum. Unlike most people I don't get intimidated by groups of teenagers even if they are strangers to me. The kids who cause trouble are the least likely to want an allotment. Teenagers get bored during school holidays and I am sure some would love to be able to go down on their own and work the plot.
-
I'm saying there shouldn't be an age limit, because capability isn't defined by age. Whether a child (that is, someone under 18) is capable of working on a plot unsupervised is a matter for the parent and it'll depend on the child and the situation. ....
....It depends on the child and the situation, and that's a choice for the parent.
You're not serious, are you?
Some parents do not have common sense. The mother who left her four children, all under the age of 4, for 24 hours didn't have much common sense, did she?
What if this mother wanted a plot for the 4-year-old?
Without a lower age limit she would be able to choose to do this.
-
Slightly off topic but I hate it when these kids are so admired for having to take over the running of a family............In a modern society like ours why can't these kids have a support system put into their homes so they should be enjoying their childhood,not some kid having to give up their childhood.Something precious and taken away for ever.
Why is it these days people want to see kids as mini adults all the time.??
My rant over.
unfortunately it isn't always possible to live in an 'ideal' world and amongst a tiny minority of family units some kids have to take on more responsibility that people would have liked. Death of a parent is one such situation - someone still needs to go out and work and yes maybe he oldest child will have to take on some extra duties. A shame but a reality.
my experience of kids on allotments generally is that opinion is very polarised. Some plot holders are very anti my kids coming down the plot (age 2 and 4) because they make a little bit of noise and run around on my plot. The reality is that the kids are only ever down there for about an hour a month and they do not go anywhere other than my plot! Others love seeing the kids getting excited about growing and remark how lovely it is to see them on the plot.
Personally people getting revved up about kids on allotments is a non conversation - it would be a bit like getting in a lather about OAPs on the site and wondering if the oldies are too frail and could fall and hurt themselves. I think we all do a subconscious risk assessment and work out the pros outweigh the cons and getting down the plot is what is best!
-
Hey mister you watch wot you are saying about OAP's. We were gardening before you were even thought of ;D
-
Hey mister you watch wot you are saying about OAP's. We were gardening before you were even thought of ;D
gotta love the old ducks! :P
-
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ViKV0O_Xvmc/SexNKendghI/AAAAAAAAJCM/8xM18EdUdwQ/s720/DSC_0055.JPG)
Nuff said?
-
There are two different points being made here:
1. Children are OK on their parents' allotments. Yes, I agree, super, love them to bits. Great experience for the kids and normally fun for adjacent plot holders too. I love seeing particularly the little ones' delight when they see where fruit and veg come from. Also they get to chat with and help adjacent plot holders, play with other kids and give their parents a bit of space for their gardening. And that's what community is about.
2. A child of any age should be entitled to hold an allotment plot in their own name. No, I disagree, I don't think that should be a right, although there might well be rare occasions when, if there were full and sensible parental support and the plot (for legal reasons) was in the parent's name that I would consider it.
I too have spent 40 years as a teacher working with 10-18year olds. They're great but most of the 15-18 year olds are so busy studying, becoming parents or trying to get a job that their interests are elsewhere. For the younger ones we had a gardening club and a school "allotment" where they had the chance to learn the ropes in a very protected environment. I know it is only one school, but nobody continued in the clubs once they reached the exam years, albeit one lad (in the 17 years I was in the school) went on to train as a gardener.
I'm all in favour of young people's rights, but with rights go responsibilities and, in my opinion, the vast majority of young people would not want this particular responsibility. The problem, as so many others have reiterated, is that once you change the rules, you're left with the consequences.
To give you an example: at uni I was on the staff/student council and, at the request of my peers, quizzed the German Prof about the requirement for students of Modern Languages to have Higher(sort of like AS level) Latin. I pointed out that there were very good linguists who had not done Latin who were excluded because of this rule. He replied that the rule existed because without it Latin would cease to be taught in schools and a great cultural heritage would be lost. He added that the university would never exclude a student with good linguistic knowledge simply because they did not have Latin and listed a number of alumni for whom that was the case. Don't know if everyone will see the parallel but as we know he was correct. Once the requirement for Latin was removed it virtually died in all but a few Scottish schools.
I would like us to be able to use common sense and good judgment as to when a minor should be allowed to take charge of a plot rather than open the doors to all and sundry. I'm afraid, that in that scenario we might not like what we'd get.
-
I think PSI just about summed it up, no offence Shirl. :P ;D ;D ;D
-
I generally find that kids on allotments are fine, as long as you run them through the shredder and mix them thoroughly into the compost. Best for things like squashes and sweetcorn, heavy feeders etc.... If they make too much noise you might want to change the settings on your shredder.....
chrisc
-
I generally find that kids on allotments are fine, as long as you run them through the shredder and mix them thoroughly into the compost. Best for things like squashes and sweetcorn, heavy feeders etc.... If they make too much noise you might want to change the settings on your shredder.....
chrisc
:) :) :) :)
-
Well my experience was a lot different from grawrc. I had the older ones on my gardening club. There was a lot of this "strong in t'arm but thick in t'head" with some of them. Not afraid of hard manual graft, in fact they loved it after being stuck in a desk all morning . I remember that the big lads were avid watchers of Gardener's World. At that time it had the woman with the "big tits and no bra" as they quaintly put it.
I would not agree that kids that age don't have the time. The main problem is to keep teenagers usefully occupied and out of trouble. Giving them an opportunity to develop a hobby gives them a sense of achievement and remember the ones who are keen on gardening will be the keenest on doing things that are socially acceptable.
My impression is that the social structure of allotmenteering has changed in recent years. It is no longer an old man's preserve. There are many young adults taking allotments and many women. The younger generation seems to be much more aware and concerned about the ethics and standard of food than previous generations. These are the future if we want allotments to continue in the future. I remember the excitement when I was able to take the first crops home and eat them and I think we ought to give young people the chance to experience that because that is something that stays with you for a lifetime.
-
Well my experience was a lot different from grawrc. I had the older ones on my gardening club. There was a lot of this "strong in t'arm but thick in t'head" with some of them. Not afraid of hard manual graft, in fact they loved it after being stuck in a desk all morning . I remember that the big lads were avid watchers of Gardener's World. At that time it had the woman with the "big tits and no bra" as they quaintly put it.
I would not agree that kids that age don't have the time. The main problem is to keep teenagers usefully occupied and out of trouble. Giving them an opportunity to develop a hobby gives them a sense of achievement and remember the ones who are keen on gardening will be the keenest on doing things that are socially acceptable.
My impression is that the social structure of allotmenteering has changed in recent years. It is no longer an old man's preserve. There are many young adults taking allotments and many women. The younger generation seems to be much more aware and concerned about the ethics and standard of food than previous generations. These are the future if we want allotments to continue in the future. I remember the excitement when I was able to take the first crops home and eat them and I think we ought to give young people the chance to experience that because that is something that stays with you for a lifetime.
Spot on Geoff - indeed the profile of the allomenteer is changing as are some methods and some types of crops. All the better!
-
A lovely pic Barriedale Nick. ;D
That is the way I like to see children on Allotments
Well supervised ;D
-
Spot on Geoff - indeed the profile of the allomenteer is changing as are some methods and some types of crops. All the better!
Not all of it I think to the benefit. On the allottment site we have set up in our town it is all young families and young people. No old codgers. If I had a plot there I would be the oldest and I am still a way from getting my bus pass.
I miss the old geezers. when I was in my 20s and had my first allottment i learnt a lot from the old guys who were in their 70s and 80s. Some of their techniques I would not use, they were not into organic growing, but i learnt a lot about the best way or easiest way of growing many crops and you don't see it in books. It is the passing on of knowledge down the generations that our new site has not got.
-
I think it is nice to have a good balance of ages. We are a new site and have a huge variation is ages. The site next to me is run but a couple of kids (not goats but from old germanic english) though Dad does most of the serious digging.
We have several 'old codgers' and quite a bevvy of old codgeresses. All sorts of techniques from traditional rows to techno gardening.
I think children have plenty of time for hobbies. I love seeing a child eating a carrot they have just pulled from the soil. They are often so thrilled by the taste.
-
Thirty years ago it used to be like a men only club. Sometimes I would go down determined not to speak to anyone. I wasn't being unfriendly - its just i wanted to get some work done. The humour could be a bit cruel. They all laughed their socks off when one of the old guys speared his foot with a fork while trying to kill a mole. It was like he had stapled his foot and boot to the ground and we had to dig it out before sending him off to hospital.
You have to watch your language now!