Allotments 4 All
Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: Digeroo on November 05, 2009, 09:16:57
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I had always tried to rotate my bean growing plot. But my mother in law grew fab beans on the same spot for 50 years. They seem to particularly like certain places in my garden. Can I keep them in the same spot?
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I suppose if you fill the trench each year with different compost it will not matter a bit.
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Digeroo I presume you mean French beans etc, so can someone explain to me why can you grow runner beans in the same spot (I've read on here that people do so) but not other beans (or am I being a bit dim ::) )
Thanks 1066
(And I don't mean to hijack your thread Digeroo, cos I'd like to use a certain spot on my plot for exactly this but like to try and understand why )
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Seems that the beans have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria so the same soil will actually be beneficial. Certainly my m in l never changed the soil.
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Ah - thanks!
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And I don't mean to hijack your thread Digeroo
You are certainly not hijacking my thread. I rather consider a thread to be a starting point for a conversation on the same topic.
I did know about the nodules on the roots etc, but tonybloke was telling me more about it in the shed yesterday and I am interesting in learning more.
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My father always grew his runners in the same spot and I don't remember his changing the soil. And several of the older guys on our site do the same - and they definitely don't change the soil.
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Chap on the plot next to us has a permanent structure for beans. I like to move them around so the nodules can do good elsewhere in the plot. And also mine grow up canes, which of course are moveabele.
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ok - so what are nodules ! ( I must pop into the shed sometime....)
And yes I've seen some people have permanent bean structures, so there must be some good to it
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I suppose it has its advantages growing them in one spot as a permanent structure could make it easier than having to tie in canes or poles every year.
My neighbour has grown his in the same spot for 50 years whereas I move mine around. We both get more beans than we can cope with. ;D
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Certainly, with runners, which are so tall, choosing a spot and keeping them there would have its advantages. You could position them so they didn't overshadow other stuff and you could have a permanent frame.
I just grow them as part of my rotation.
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I like to move them around so the nodules can do good elsewhere in the plot. And also mine grow up canes, which of course are moveabele.
I also rotate mine for the same reason.
I have read that you must not follow legumes with more legumes, but loads of people grow in the same spot year after year, so this is confusing.
After talking with my OH father, who is a farmer. He plants his runner beans in the garden in the same place each year, but when he grows acres if field beans, he trys not to plant in the same field.
So I think you need to rotate to prevent diseases, but only if you grow on a large scale.
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ok - so what are nodules ! ( I must pop into the shed sometime....)
And yes I've seen some people have permanent bean structures, so there must be some good to it
The nodules to which they are referring are nitrogen fixing nodules which legumes all have, they are excellent for fixing nitrogen in the soil so would be good for all soil to have legumes in so next veg have lots of nitrogen. However, having said that... my neighbours (80 years old) have grown runners in the same spot year after year, they do the proper trench starting now so the soil is always full of goodness and of course as runners are so tall if you choose a spot which isn't shadowing something else you can out a permanent or semi perm structure up for them to grow on. It's 6 of one half a dozen of another!! ;D ;D
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Reddyreddy - thanks for the explanation :)
I have the perfect spot for a permanent bean structure, towards the back of the plot and gets lots of sun. As I don't grow that many runners (only 1/2 a dozen anymore and we're in glut teritory!) I was wondering if I could grow other beans alongside them? And as I love generally love legumes there will always be more dotted around the plot, so keeping a bit of crop rotation gowing as well
1066
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The nodules in question are the 'prison / home' of nitrogen fixing bacteria. as the plant first grows from the seed, some of the roots open a minute hole (usually just beneath a root-hair) this hole exudes a signal which 'invites' bacteria in. When the bacteria is in the root opening, the root-hair closes over it, thereby entrapping the bacterium. the bacterium 'fix' nitrogen from the atmosphere, and because they don't need much of it to survive, they 'exchange' it with the plant, in return for starch (monosacharides) which the plant produces to excess.
This is a good example of symbiosis.
the bacterium aren't particularly mobile, so growing runner beans in the same spot helps the two to 'get together'.
Some commercial legume seed is coated with bacterium before sowing, to ensure the supply of bacteria to the roots.
After cropping any beans, it is best to leave the roots in the soil, as these break down they release the nitrogen for the next crop to use, (it's why some farmers use a clover 'ley' which is then ploughed in to feed the next crop.
Sorry if this a long and boring post, but hey, you asked!! ;)
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Sorry if this a long and boring post, but hey, you asked!! ;)
Fascinating TB !
My science in take is certainly improving with the use of this site..... :)
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Hey Tony you took me straight back to college then.
Excellent teacher............... :)
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And you can actually see those nodules in the roots, crunchy little things if you squeeze one.
I just snap the stem off low to the ground at the end of the season and let the roots rot in place.
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that's good practice annie!!
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Ark at Tone the big SWAT. :P
My Runners are in a permanent spot at the front of the plot, I dig a trench and back fill with veg peelings, (not spuds) shredded paper and grass cuttings. The other beans form part of the rotation along with the peas, and as already said are cut at ground level when finished thus leaving the roots in the soil and what Tone said. ;D ;D ;D
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Runners are like a lot of 'foreign' veg; they left their diseases behind when they were brought here. So you can get away with growing them year after year in the same spot when you can't do it with other crops. It was the same with potatoes once; they arrived in the 16th Century, while blight was imported with some Mexican potatoes in the 1830's.
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where do runnerbeans originate then?
and another cut at the base of the stem for all my legume crops here :).
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Central America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner_bean
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I dug my beans up, thought I was tidying up. :( :( Will just cut them next year and they are staying in the same place as I am not moving the wooden frame, so there.
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tonybloke you really are a mind full of knowledge I never knew half of that or even a quarter, I didn't know you cut them off at the base of the plant, I have always left the plant to die down before digging the plot (well raised bed) it will certainly make my beds a lot less messy. Its only when I read all your posts i realize how little i know :-[ I certainly have a lot to learn, but cannot think of a better place than A4A to do so.
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Central America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner_bean
interesting as it likes the uk climate and seems to struggle if the summers are too dry/ hot, i'm surprised it originated there, may be the tropical type rainfalls balance this out according to the time of the year they are traditionally grown there.
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Central America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner_bean
interesting as it likes the uk climate and seems to struggle if the summers are too dry/ hot, i'm surprised it originated there, may be the tropical type rainfalls balance this out according to the time of the year they are traditionally grown there.
I did read somewhere that they are from rain forests, and that they climb up the trees.
No, I remembered wrong, `they grow high in the mountins protected by trees that act as a climbing frame` quote from Grow your own veg by Carol Klein
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the collective knowledge on this forum is fab ;D
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Central America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner_bean
interesting as it likes the uk climate and seems to struggle if the summers are too dry/ hot, i'm surprised it originated there, may be the tropical type rainfalls balance this out according to the time of the year they are traditionally grown there.
I did read somewhere that they are from rain forests, and that they climb up the trees.
how cool that would be to see, i'm off to google a picture :).
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And you can actually see those nodules in the roots, crunchy little things if you squeeze one.
and if you do squeeze a nodule you may see that it is red inside and that is leghaemoglobin which is an oxygen carrying protein similar to blood in animals.
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Central America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runner_bean
interesting as it likes the uk climate and seems to struggle if the summers are too dry/ hot, I'm surprised it originated there, may be the tropical type rainfalls balance this out according to the time of the year they are traditionally grown there.
I did read somewhere that they are from rain forests, and that they climb up the trees.
how cool that would be to see, I'm off to google a picture :).
no luck yet but lots of reference to them growing in rainforests out there. but it got me thinking maybe the toxicity is related to their origin and trying to keep themselves as uneaten as possible by the many fruit and leaf eaters of the rainforest community.
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Another interesting, and informative, thread! I'm probably going to grow my runners in the same place next year as I did this.
1066 a plot neighbour grows several types of beans, and sweet peas, all together on his cane double rows and wigwams. So unless anyone says different I say go ahead and give it a try!
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Amazing started this thread this morning and then went off for the day and it seems to have taken off.
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That is what I did this year, grew sweet peas at both ends of the wooden frame, with the runner beans in the middle. The sweet peas did well, runner beans OK this year but needed a lot of watering and not as plentiful as last year, but still gots loads in the freezer and gave some away, but could have done with some more as many friends and neighbours like my beans as I pick them young and tender.
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i always grow mine in the same place i use 8' bamboo canes in an x shape that is wider at the top so that the beans hang down the outside that makes picking them much easier, i leave this years beans in the ground until feb when i dig them in and add as much compost as i can into a trench. plant the beans straight in the ground and 6 weeks later plant 2 more at the bottom of the others to extend the harvest.
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Digeroo I think that everyone is happy, and relieved, to get back to normal! :)
Borlotti I do the same as you, and I think that they also look good when they're grown together like that.
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Not everyone goes with the idea of digging a trench, but year one and two I had to water like mad, the last two years I have hardly watered them with the trench being water retentive. ;D ;D ;D
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I have put leaves and Council compost where I am growing my beans next year. I will dig it in. How deep do I have to dig a trench or can I just turn the soil over.
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We've changed to growing beans in the same place - having seen how the old boys grow theirs
It saves having to work out where in the rotation they need to be :P
Now the frost has got them, we've chopped down the row and piled them up - at the weekend we'll dig a new trench and chuck 'em all back in ;D
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i always grow mine in the same place i use 8' bamboo canes in an x shape that is wider at the top so that the beans hang down the outside that makes picking them much easier, i leave this years beans in the ground until feb when i dig them in and add as much compost as i can into a trench. plant the beans straight in the ground and 6 weeks later plant 2 more at the bottom of the others to extend the harvest.
what a good idea, definately doing an X next year!
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6 weeks later plant 2 more at the bottom of the others to extend the harvest.
I like the thought of this. I usually start a new set of canes mid june and beginning of july.
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i always grow mine in the same place i use 8' bamboo canes in an x shape that is wider at the top so that the beans hang down the outside that makes picking them much easier, i leave this years beans in the ground until feb when i dig them in and add as much compost as i can into a trench. plant the beans straight in the ground and 6 weeks later plant 2 more at the bottom of the others to extend the harvest.
what a good idea, definately doing an X next year!
if you like that then you'll like the 'Munty Frame' http://chat.allotment.org.uk/index.php?topic=2100.300 (http://chat.allotment.org.uk/index.php?topic=2100.300) i am very taken with this idea but i didn't have the space needed to do it this year, i hope to try it out next year.
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I think I might give this Munty frame a go. I have a huge problem not finding the beans and then finding they have grown to big and tough to eat. Only problem is it will have to be diagonal on my site down a slope.
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I've just spent the last few hours reading the munty thread. It sounds like a great system. I'm certainly up for giving it a go! Thanks again Kella. You're full of great suggestions. :)
OMG -just noticed the time :o :o Goodnight Maryellen.....
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if you like that then you'll like the 'Munty Frame' http://chat.allotment.org.uk/index.php?topic=2100.300 (http://chat.allotment.org.uk/index.php?topic=2100.300) color]
This is how Mohammed from Bangladesh grows his squash -
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I think this is the same sort of thing as the one in your link Kella? I had never thought of growing beans like this, what a good idea!
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1066 a plot neighbour grows several types of beans, and sweet peas, all together on his cane double rows and wigwams. So unless anyone says different I say go ahead and give it a try!
Thanks Flighty - I kind of did this last year but thoought the sweatpeas took over a bit and swamped the climbing beans and runners. Whereas the dwarf beans were brilliant from the start and produced lots of great beans. Maybe I should cut down on the number of sweat pea plants (or spread them out across the plot a bit more !!
What I'd like to try as well is a catch crop in the middle of the canes.... But then looking at the Munty frame......
Ooo decisions decisions!
Inspiring pic Squash :)
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if you like that then you'll like the 'Munty Frame' http://chat.allotment.org.uk/index.php?topic=2100.300 (http://chat.allotment.org.uk/index.php?topic=2100.300) color]
This is how Mohammed from Bangladesh grows his squash -
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[attachment=2]
I think this is the same sort of thing as the one in your link Kella? I had never thought of growing beans like this, what a good idea!
what a fantastic idea for growing squash, i love it, hmmm! another to try next year me thinks ;).
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I did two Munty frames this year using assorted trash ( if you wish, see my gallery 5th image).
I'd recommend very sturdy side poles because of the weight of the vines in a wind. Anything flimsy is a waste of time to my way of thinking after a twig arbor went down with only a morning glory vine on it once..
My Munty contraption used: two old volleyball posts which still had their concrete bases attached when I found them in the woods, a metal cot frame, two cross country skis, metal rods from the interior or a sleeper sofa, plastic edging to hold a brick walkway in place, some wood strips and some rusty old fence posts. It is still standing; a marvel of architectural beauty, surely the 11th wonder of the world.
I companion planted snow peas up first, then later poked purple pole beans seeds in between the peas. Not sure that was a good idea. Underneath were planted Masai bush beans which did VERY well.
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Fantastic thread peeps, got nothing to add really but this is what A4A is all about and why it is so useful to those of us who are inexperienced. :)
Lushy x
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I did two Munty frames this year using assorted trash ( if you wish, see my gallery 5th image).
I'd recommend very sturdy side poles because of the weight of the vines in a wind. Anything flimsy is a waste of time to my way of thinking after a twig arbor went down with only a morning glory vine on it once..
My Munty contraption used: two old volleyball posts which still had their concrete bases attached when I found them in the woods, a metal cot frame, two cross country skis, metal rods from the interior or a sleeper sofa, plastic edging to hold a brick walkway in place, some wood strips and some rusty old fence posts. It is still standing; a marvel of architectural beauty, surely the 11th wonder of the world.
I companion planted snow peas up first, then later poked purple pole beans seeds in between the peas. Not sure that was a good idea. Underneath were planted Masai bush beans which did VERY well.
it looked much better than you described ;)
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I took this photo of Mohammed's frame today.
[attachment=1]
It was taken from the side of the frame and you can see some squash hanging down. I think they are similar to Sicilian Snakes, or they might even be SS.
The front of the frame measures approx. 12 feet across and it is about 8 feet deep.
I think it works really well for squash.
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that is quite a substantial frame Squash64, does he move it around or is it permanent.
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that is quite a substantial frame Squash64, does he move it around or is it permanent.
No, he doesn't move it. The corners are very sturdy but I noticed today that the 'ceiling' part is made of bamboo canes.
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Isn't it amazing the way a thread can develop?! ThisMunty frame is fantastic and something I will definately try next year!! ;D
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And I've just remembered that I have some of the Wilco's rose arches to use for next year ;D
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I haven't followed this thread but presumably growing your beans in the same place increases the beneficial fungi/bacteria associated with nitrogen fixation by legumes... I know one company was selling them as a seed dusting this year..
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seed dusting
Now I don't really do dusting ......
And I've heard of fairy dust .......
;)
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;D
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Our beans got rust so do we need to move them next year & dispose of the foliage to the tip.
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Not sure how it's carried Janet... getting rid of the foliage won't hurt... :-\
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Digeroo,
My father got me to dig the trench at the top of the garden and another on the lottie for years. He had the same spot for them before I came along and after I left home he carried on with them in the same spot.
They always were good croppers and never failed him.
Why break a good rule of thumbm, if it grows there leave them there.
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I have got rust on my runner beans for years. One reason I keep sowing more as the season progresses, so that I can abandon one set of beans and move onto the next. Not sure that keeping the beans, in the same place or not will make much difference presume it is blowing about in the wind.
Some varieties are more susceptible than others. I was quite pleased with Aintree, no problems while other right next door died back.
I read on a US forum that people inoculate the beans to implant the bacteria. I was therefore very worried when I realised that I had a new allotment as to whether there would be any available. But there had been clover on site for many years, and when I dug up some beans they were absolutely caked in nodules.
Just to say a big thank you to all who have posted on this thread. I have enjoyed it very much. Some new ideas, some education, some interesting advice, some jokes and humour, a bit of wandering. Thats what I like about this forum.
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We have a permanent climbing bean bed, as once the O/H put up all the poles he turned to me and said i am not doing that again!!!!!
::)