Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: Squash64 on August 24, 2009, 09:03:41
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When people enquire about having a plot on our site I always meet them first before I put their name on the waiting-list. This gives me some idea about how much time they will be able to spend and what size of plot to offer them when one becomes available.
While I was on holiday some months ago, our chairman added someone's name to the waiting-list. I thought he had met the man and spoken about the work involved in having a plot but it turns out he hadn't, he just took his details over the phone.
This bloke had reached the top of the list so I invited him to come and look at a half-plot that has just become available. After speaking to him for a short time it became obvious that even a half-plot would be too much for him.
We didn't do any of the paperwork when he came down and I told him to come and see me during the week. He didn't come or contact me and it's over a week now.
I'm a bit undecided now about what to do IF he does turn up. Should I tell him that I've changed my mind and he can have a quarter plot, not a half?
Or no plot at all? Or stick to the half I've offered him?
I have lots of people desperate for even a quarter plot so if I only gave him a quarter, it would leave the other part for someone who is keen to start. I feel a bit awful about changing my mind once I've offered him the half plot but once I've done the paperwork it's a long process to evict him.
I would love to hear other's opinions on this.
Problems, problems......
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Suggest you wait another week and see if he contacts you. If he doesn't, write and say that the offer is withdrawn as he hasn't followed up. If he does, suggest you be straight with him and say that during your meeting you felt he could only manage a quarter plot, would he like that? If not, again no go.
Thats my thoughts - hope it may help.
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Well Betty if I were the man and I had been waiting for a plot I would have been down to see you A.S.P cos I would be that keen to make a start. If I were you I would wait perhaps for another week and if he turns up after that you could tell him that being as he didn't come during the week you assumed that he didn't really want it.OR you could just ask him if he would mind sharing the half plot with someone seeing as there was a waiting list and perhaps if he was doing well could take on a bigger one in future. You never know it might be just what he wants to hear. Hope you get it sorted soon Betty.
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I'd be interested in how 'you' decide what size plot someone can cope with? I know people who are not in work, but don't keep their 1/2 plot in order and those that are working fulltime with families and manage to keep 1 or 2 allotments weedless!
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I agree with Shirlton - if I had been waiting for a plot and it came up - I'd be pestering you all the time about when could I start. I also think it is possible to work out how "committed" someone might be to working their plot just by talking to them - finding out a bit about them and what other hobbies a commitments they have and their aspirations and reasons for wanting a plot.
twinkletoes
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Knowing BettyI don't think that for one minute she would just weigh someone up and tell them what they could have. It would be more of a discussion as to how much time they were able to devote to keeping the plot in good order. I wish that more folks were asked the question and perhaps we wouldnt be surrounded by weed ridden plots that are just waiting for a nice breeze to blow their seed onto ours.
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...am not trying to criticise, just interested :)
Most of the people on our site, who then don't cultivate and full of good intentions at the beginning. I haven't met many people who say "I can only come down for 1 hour per week" at the start. They seem to come alot at the beginning and then tail off...
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Whoa!
I am sure there must be some way of contacting this person other than waiting for him to turn up. He must have an address and possibly a phone number.
The thing I am most surprised about it how you decide who is to get a plot or not! No disrespect but surely just because someone doesn't come accross as the perfect plot holder then they don't get a plot - having been on the list or not!!
This person may be waiting for further contact or you may already have managed to put him off! He may have family problems - and he may be one of those people that do not come accross well when "interviewed". He may be waiting for you to contact him.
I am surprised that you have so much say - obviously I understand you need to ascertain how much space to give them - but I am very surprised at the amount of power that one person has over other people's lives.
No doubt your allotments are weed free as you have managed to weed out the unsuitable allotment holders before they even get to turn over a sod!
Old Bird
:o
Old Bird
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squash,why didnt you do the paperwork there and then,if he was so keen wouldnt he just have signed up on the spot?
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I'm inclined to agree with Shirlton - if he had been that keen, he'd have contacted you by now. I recently signed up a guy who chose a bramble-infested patch and was back within half an hour with his tools to start work.
Give it a few more days, then contact him again to ask if he's still interested as there are others on the waiting list. If he doesn't reply, then I think it's fair to assume he's not interested; if he does, at least you can arrange to meet and negotiate with him.
But on the question of how much land people can cope with, we're getting quite a few now who have had no gardening experience at all and don't actually want a half, or even quarter-size, plot. So we're working on getting a few starter plots going. They could have one for a season and see how they get on; if they feel they're ready for something bigger, if a plot comes up it could be offered to them. Still working on the fine detail, but it does seem a better option than expecting a total novice to cope with what must seem a vast wilderness.
Anyone had experience at running something similar on their site. (Sorry to hi-jack your thread, Betty!)
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Thanks for all your replies.
On our site, it has always been the Secretary's job to take care of the waiting-list and decide which plots are given to tenants. On the whole, this seems to work well.
elvis2003
squash,why didnt you do the paperwork there and then,if he was so keen wouldnt he just have signed up on the spot?
The reason I didn't do the paperwork with this particular chap was that on the day he came, I had forgotten to bring it! (it was the day after our Summer Fayre and I hadn't got back into my normal routine)
Old bird
Whoa!
I am sure there must be some way of contacting this person other than waiting for him to turn up. He must have an address and possibly a phone number.
Contacting him is not the problem. I would expect him to contact me after the initial meeting.
I gave him my mobile number and told him to phone me from the gate so I could come and open it for him. He said he would not come the following day because of work but that he would come another day that week.
Old bird
I am surprised that you have so much say - obviously I understand you need to ascertain how much space to give them - but I am very surprised at the amount of power that one person has over other people's lives.
You seem to have me down as some sort of power-mad dictator :o
I promise you, I'm not.
If I didn't meet people first, and find out a bit about their circumstances then it could lead to them being offered a plot which would not be suitable. The full-size plots on our site are quite large so as they become available I've started splitting them into more manageable halves and quarters. So far, I've found that people are more than happy to take a smaller plot.
As for having "so much power over their lives" - we are talking about allotments here, which are obviously important in people's lives, but not to the extent you seem to believe.
Old bird
No doubt your allotments are weed free as you have managed to weed out the unsuitable allotment holders before they even get to turn over a sod!
I hope you are joking.
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If I didn't meet people first, and find out a bit about their circumstances then it could lead to them being offered a plot which would not be suitable. The full-size plots on our site are quite large so as they become available I've started splitting them into more manageable halves and quarters. So far, I've found that people are more than happy to take a smaller plot.
There are quite a few people on our site that would do much better with a half plot, but I know that most of them would not be happy with this suggestion! That is obvious when you see how they cope with their current demands, but I am not sure as a committee we would have got away with making that decision upfront unless the person was agreeable to this.
It is far more complicated than "do you work?" "have you got kids?" "Have you got any other demanding hobbies?". People manage their time totally differently and some will cope where others would have gone under....
What I mean is HOW do you decide what size is suitable?
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But on the question of how much land people can cope with, we're getting quite a few now who have had no gardening experience at all and don't actually want a half, or even quarter-size, plot. So we're working on getting a few starter plots going. They could have one for a season and see how they get on; if they feel they're ready for something bigger, if a plot comes up it could be offered to them. Still working on the fine detail, but it does seem a better option than expecting a total novice to cope with what must seem a vast wilderness.
Anyone had experience at running something similar on their site. (Sorry to hi-jack your thread, Betty!)
No need to apologise, I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has done this too. What size will your starter plots be?
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this starter plot idea,while i agree its a good idea,is it not a little bit patronising? i would have felt a bit hard done to if i had been offered one llike that i think.
i put people on the waiting list without having met them,and offer them whatever size plot next comes up.they all say they are as keen as mustard and have this plan and that idea,not all of them fulfill their promises! :-[
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Squash64, I sympathize with you. There is no fun in being the one who allots out the allotments. :P We joke with our allotment supervisor and call him "the fuhrer", but it is definitely a joke and he does a good job. Without him, our allotments would be blighted by more than just our weedy h-e-double toothpicks-hole, as I call our patch. ;D So good on you for being the one who does the donkey work.
I digress. This is the thing: like dating, if the man is truly interested he will call you and come and get his 1/4 or 1/2 plot. Give it a week and then assign it to the next one on the list. As for starter plots, well, if that's the way that site works, then that's the way it works.
And no, there is no magical formula for seeing who will keep their allotment tidy or not. However, I'll argue that because my plot is terribly weed-ful, does not mean it is any less loved and tended. We get a lot of lovely veggies out of our patch despite the weeds. We both have full-time jobs and a small child, so we get down there when we can. It's a vegetable patch, not a beauty contest. ;) And it's very relaxing when the wind blows through the weeds, hee hee...
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There are quite a few people on our site that would do much better with a half plot, but I know that most of them would not be happy with this suggestion! That is obvious when you see how they cope with their current demands, but I am not sure as a committee we would have got away with making that decision upfront unless the person was agreeable to this.
It is far more complicated than "do you work?" "have you got kids?" "Have you got any other demanding hobbies?". People manage their time totally differently and some will cope where others would have gone under....
What I mean is HOW do you decide what size is suitable?
There are a lot of people on our site too who would be better off with half a plot, myself included!
The problem is, it is very difficult to give up part of a plot you have been working for years. I have a large fig tree on the part of mine that would be most suitable for giving up, but how can I?
It is much easier with newcomers - they do not get offered a full-size plot.
I have only just started doing quarter plots and nobody has minded having one. One bloke who took an overgrown one on in May has done wonders with it. The first day, he bought and put up a small shed. The fist week, all his paths were laid, raised beds put in and crops planted. He put up a greenhouse, made compost bins and a seating area. In July after only 3 months of having the plot he won our 'Best Newcomer' competition and the judges said he had more on his small plot than many people with full-sized ones. I have recently given him three-quarters of another plot and he is storming through that one too.
When I offer people a quarter plot I take them and show them what this man has done with his and they are always impressed.
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On our site, all new people get a half ie five rod plot, to start with and we've been operating this policy for over two years now. If a ten rod plot is given up its split into two and this help keep down our waiting list (although at the moment its over 30 which is the highest its ever been). If a person is successfully tending a five rod plot wants to have another, then they go on the waiting list.
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I think this man's absence says a lot - yes, he might have 'stuff' going on in his life, but he made a comittment to return to the site, was quite specific about when he could and couldn't, then didn't show up.
To alleviate feelings of guilt, I would be inclined to call or write to him - note that I had not heard from him, that other people are on the waiting list and that if I did not hear by x date, I will offer the plot to someone else.
That will either galvanise him into action or let him off the hook.
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Re: starter plots. There is a project here in Norwich called the Grow Our Own Project which offers people starter plots - well, strips really. It is about sustainable living and you must grow organically. There are shared facilities, tools etc, manure, leaf mould, composting area and seeds and plants are provided for the rent paid - a higher rate than normal allotments. It is very popular, so popular that it is now difficult to progress to larger plots coz there aint any! The project started before the huge rise in popularity for allotments I think.
Not sure that it really gives people much of an idea about a proper plot - no space to grow anything worthwhile. Great idea about tools etc - if you had a starter plot you wouldn't want to carry all the gear to and from the plot.
There are big waiting lists here like most places and normal plots are really big. I personally feel that any full plot becoming vacant should be split in half so more people get plots, they are still a decent size (only got half plot myself, chose it coz it was manageable ;D)
Overtaken by other posts while typing - lavenderlux thats a great policy!
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Our site has started doing half plots and the folks are really happy with them. it's still their little bit of heaven. Some of the folks who have taken on full plots just never seem to get them cultivated. At least half of their plots are untouched.Its such a shame when people are wanting to grow their own food.
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this starter plot idea,while i agree its a good idea,is it not a little bit patronising? i would have felt a bit hard done to if i had been offered one llike that i think.-[
We're not going to impose it on anyone, merely offer it. It won't give anyone the "right" to jump the waiting list, but will give them an idea of what is involved and what they can achieve. While they have the starter plot they stay the same number on the waiting list as before; if they reach the top they will be offered a plot, but they don't have to take it.
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Squash
I suggest the letting principles should be something like:
1. When you apply for a plot you go on the waiting list.
2. When a plot becomes available it's offered to whoever's on the top of the waiting list, and if she doesn't want it then work down the waiting list to find someone who does want it.
3. If she doesn't want the whole plot then she can take how much she wants and the rest is offered down the waiting list.
4. If she wants a bigger plot she can take what she's offered and keep her position on the waiting list.
The interests, aptitudes and personal details of your applicants are none of your business. The job of the letting secretary is to show the prospective tenant where the plot is that they've been offered, not to vet applicants.
Sometimes new tenants won't cope, many will. You can't tell which are which.
This chap, what didn't you like about him? Was he black, or gay, or Jewish, or disabled?
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There are two issues - his non-attendance and how much land you award him.
He should have contacted you but, as others have suggested, there may be mitigating circumstances. Perhaps he might have even found your interview intimidating? Not everyone performs at their best when put on the spot unexpectedly. To be fair, you should contact him again and tell him you can't keep the plot open indefinitely and set a deadline by which he has to appear or you let the plot to the next person and take him off the waiting list. That might solve your problem!
Our site operates a variation on what Unwashed suggests. We have designated full and half plots - we don't split them (or combine them) on the fly. When someone joins the waiting list, they express their preference for a full or half. When a plot becomes available it's offered to whoever is top of the list for that size. We don't assess people's capability, how much free time they have, what their other hobbies are or anything else. In my view, it's not appropriate. If he does turn up you should honour your original offer.
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The interests, aptitudes and personal details of your applicants are none of your business. The job of the letting secretary is to show the prospective tenant where the plot is that they've been offered, not to vet applicants.
Sometimes new tenants won't cope, many will. You can't tell which are which.
This chap, what didn't you like about him? Was he black, or gay, or Jewish, or disabled?
When I meet prospective tenants we "talk" to each other - as in "have a conversation with". I don't vet them, I don't grill them, I don't interrogate them. It is true that the interests and personal details of applicants are none of my business, but when did I say they were? As for their aptitude, if I offered a full-size plot to someone who clearly would not be able to manage it then I would be depriving it to someone who could.
I find your last remark offensive and if you knew me you would understand why.
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Hi Squash - our site operates something very similar to Ceres' site, if you want a large plot you can have one, etc
Unwashed - that last comment sounds uncalled for to me!
1066
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Ignore it Betty, folk getting wound up for no reason.
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Unwashed,if you did know Betty you would definitely take back that last remark
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I think it is a great pity that someone asks for advice/opinions on a situation, clearly states the basis on which they are asking then has to face a whole load of criticism and some personal remarks from others who want the whole system changed. In general this site copes well with differences of opinion but sometimes it gets out of hand. I can think of at least one similar situation which caused the poster, a much valued and long time member of A4A to leave the site completely. I would be very sorry to see that repeated.
Good luck with your decision Squash64 and best wishes.
Anne
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Squash
There was something about this chap that you didn't like and that you haven't been able to articulate, and you found it objectionable enough to consider going back on your offer to him of a half plot and you were undecided whether to offer him a quarter plot, or even no plot at all.
By your own admission you're discriminating against this guy on personal and subjective grounds. That makes you vulnerable to criticism. You don't have to justify your position to me, but my advice to you - and you did ask - is that you should think how that discrimination might look, because even if you're comfortable with whatever motivates your discrimination, and I don't think you should be, it might be difficult to show objectively that your behaviour isn't motivated by a less acceptable prejudice.
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Betty I was not having a pop at you - personally - but at your system!
I would not rate highly with your system - I am aiming for 60 years old - work full time plus a couple of part time jobs - have a couple of dogs which take up a fair bit of time and - probably - would not rate very highly with your system on the time available type of issues and manpower strength!
This is - to me - the problem. Some stereotypes do not fit all! I wanted to re-home a labrador dog - I went to labrador rescue - they would not look at me as I work full time. I privately re-homed a labrador and a lurcher. They are both very happy - well exercised - an hour and a half a day on beach/forest or moorland areas. Yet they (labrador rescue) considered me not suitable?!
Yet I run 2 plots very ably and they are not weed strewn or a mess (they are - obviously - at times) I have my chooks - who are kept well - clean and happy.
The person who has just done very well and become "best newcomer" sounds great - but for him the plots being split are not ideal. He has his shed and stuff on one and then he has three quarters of another plot - can't be ideal for him having to lug his tools around your site.
But then maybe your particular site is - if I remember - huge - in comparison to my area with a little over 20 plots.
Anyway - for what it is worth - I hope your dilemma will/is soon sorted and peace and harmony returns here!
Old Bird
:D
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Squash64 reading your opening comment again I think that some of the following comments have rather missed the point!
Although there may circumstances why he didn't contact you again I feel that by not doing you could presume that he's not interested, and I certainly don't see why you should feel awful.
Surely the simplest solution would be to contact him and find out why he didn't get back to you. Point out that if he's not interested then the offer no longer stands.
This person appears not to be worth worrying about as you have. There are plenty of others who are far more deserving and will thank you for it.
I'd also speak to your chairman about it, if you haven't already done so, to let him know what's happened and what you intend doing.
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There is an allotment site not too far from us that has a system whereby any potential plot holder has to go before the commitee.
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I think the person at the top of the list should be offered the plot, without any vetting. Otherwise all sorts of strange things can start happening, as the selecter's criteria will inevitably be subjective, and unconscious prejudice can easily slip in.
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I really don't see why this question has come up.
The allocation of plots is a key part of running an allotment.
The Rules Of Allocation/Selection of New Members/Terms Of Acceptance should be part of the allotments Rules and Regulations and the Allotment Constitution that has been agreed by ALL members of society.
Are you a private allotment or council run ? If any potential new member feels he /she has been discriminated against, for any reason whatsoever, it may leave the council vulnerable to be sued.
Any decisions on who gets a plot, how big & how they accept it, MUST be seen to be fair and unbiased- - in clear documented evidence, in exactly the same way as an employer takes on an employee. There are very strong anti discrimination laws.
Squash - if you take on such a role and make up your own decisions - expect to be criticised. If you can demonstrate you have followed your procedures, then you shouldn't take any criticism personally. On the other hand ...
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Thanks for all the replies - but I wish I had not started this topic.
I can take constructive criticism, I wouldn't have asked for advice if I couldn't. I can not take being accused of being homophobic, racist, predudiced and bigotted.
There is so much I would like to say but I get the feeling that whatever I write will be misinterpreted so I have lost the will to say it.
Time to take a back seat I think....
(but again, thanks for the replies, I will think about what has been said)
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Thanks for all the replies - but I wish I had not started this topic.
I can take constructive criticism, I wouldn't have asked for advice if I couldn't. I can not take being accused of being homophobic, racist, predudiced and bigotted.
There is so much I would like to say but I get the feeling that whatever I write will be misinterpreted so I have lost the will to say it.
Time to take a back seat I think....
(but again, thanks for the replies, I will think about what has been said)
Betty, I for one was not trying to have a go at you. I was just trying to make the point that was articulated well by Robert in a previous post. In this day and age having subjective procedures for selection is opening a can of worms. It might have gone really well so far because (prospective) tennants have agreed with you. I would dread to think what could happen if someone didn't agree. Those people that don't agree also wouldn't be the ones that are likely to bring it up at the discussion, but they are the ones that would be taking it further via discrimination laws!
We all want happy sites and allotmenteers who are able to work their plots and keep them under control.
I don't think anyone is accusing you of being homophobic or racist etc
They are just trying to highlight how the situation could be interpreted, even if you are doing this in good faith.
I would hate to see anyone stuck at the end of a dispute....
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Perhaps this man is on holiday, that could be the reason he has not been in touch, give him a little time to make contact and see from there.
June.
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Hi, I am in agreement with Robert, that there should be a waiting list where people could have a preference for a whole or half plot and that is it. Once the person comes to the top of the list then they have the choice of the plot themselves. We have a three month probationary period at our site which works well and shows up those newbies that are not going to be able to manage. I think it is too much responsibility to put the decision making on one persons shoulders and if there is any doubt then it should be set before the committee for a joint decison. You shouldn't have to take the flak Squash64 as it could bring you allsorts of personal abuse. If the rules of the tenancy are laid out then people have to adhere to them and not one person can be blamed if things go wrong. busy_lizzie
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Betty, I don't think most on here are trying to offend you, just one idiot who I think is waiting to come back with an apology for their stupid remarks. :( :( :(