Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: muddylou on July 21, 2009, 23:03:30
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Wasn't sure if to put this in the "Pests and Diseases" section as this is how I feel about it. It's my first year with an allotment, I dug deep and removed as many bits of root or weed during the late winter over the entire plot.
I'm really pleased with the veg I've had and stuff growing now. The bindweed is starting to get me down though, not so much the stuff that's easy to pull up, but more the stuff that wraps around my stems and stalks of the veg I'm growing, thus me causing damage to them as I try to remove the weed.
My plan is to let the bindweed grow as I remove crops (to leave empty beds) and then paint it all with Glysophate (sp). I'd then leave the raised beds untouched until November when I intend to plant onions and garlic in one of them.
Can anyone see an obvious problem with this that I haven't thought about, I know it's a chemical but I would really like to address the weed problem before next year.
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Glyphosphate will work on the bindweed, but you will probably need to use it a number of times. The only (short-term) answer is to pull it before before it starts to wrap. The long-term answer is dig (again and again and again) or keep painting with weedkiller. You will get there......
Glyphosphate if inactivated as soon as it touches the soil so you can plant straight away no need to wait.
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It was recommended to me to put the green growth of the bindweed in a plastic bag and then spray the chemical into the bag. I have found it works quite well. Less drifts around and it seems to concentrate the stuff on the plant.
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Roundup does not deactivate on contact with the soil, it just ceases to be effective as a weedkiller. It can still kill everything else, including you.
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Explain that statement please Eristic.
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Doh! My brain hurts.
Roundup was designed to kill weeds via contact with the foliage and as a weedkiller it is useless once in the soil. It still remains toxic to non-weed lifeforms. (No, I'm not going to waste my time showing you the evidence. Look for it yourself.)
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As a chemical free gardener I have found the best way to get rid of persistent weeds is to gently lift up the soil with a fork and tease out the roots.
Digging with a spade just tends to chop them into smaller pieces and so redistribute next years crop :(
As the roots are so brittle its pretty easy to snap them into little pieces so taking care using a fork you can get out much more at a time.
Big advantage over chemicals is the cost too. You get back ache but there is no money involved ;D
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I used it last year having been herbicide free for 23 years. The bind weed had got totally out of hand. I had been digging it up but it gets amongst the roots of permanent plants and then digging out is impossible. It even seems to get quite deep into the soil and small pieces manage to stay however hard your try to remove it. I wanted to planted some raspberries and knew it would be impossible to keep the bindweed away.
Perhaps becuase it had not seem the stuff before it was extremely effective. But hve now read some of the stuff about it. There does not seem to be much about the effect of the roots of the bindweed that remain in the soil.
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If I use a roundup type weedkiller (and I dont much) then I paint it on to try to minimise its effects elsewhere.
Eristic is right - it has been found to have a half life of over 100 days in the soil and is toxic to humans and just about everything else.
Monsanto has done a good job of promoting it as benign but do the google thing and you'll find plenty of evidence to the contrary.
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Eristic - To pick your brains as your obviously esxperienced with this, what would you recommend to kill off bindweed if not something like Roundup. WHat are the better alternatives?
OK dig dig and dig some more is the obvious one, any others?
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Doh! My brain hurts.
(No, I'm not going to waste my time...
Wow you are really coming across as quite arrogant here. I know you are experienced and you may have plenty of evidence for this, but there is not need to be quite so rude!
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Now! Now! We don't fight on this forum. We leave that to other sites.
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My plan is to let the bindweed grow as I remove crops (to leave empty beds) and then paint it all with Glysophate (sp). I'd then leave the raised beds untouched until November when I intend to plant onions and garlic in one of them.
Can anyone see an obvious problem with this that I haven't thought about, I know it's a chemical but I would really like to address the weed problem before next year.
The most obvious problem to me is that by that time the bindweed will be dying back for the winter, the glyphosate will only work if it is translocated to the roots which it won't be if the plant is dying back naturally.
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To avoid damaging the plants when trying to unravel the bindweed, just break or cut it at ground level, then the bits that were winding round the plant will die. Deal with the roots after you've lifted the veg. Bindweed is my big enemy too- hate the stuff and don't think I'll ever get rid of it.My strawberries were completely swamped by it this year.
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I thought I was on top of my bindweed but it grew like lightning in the wet last year, and it's a problem again. If you dig it out every time you clear a crop, you will get rid of it. I wouldn't trust glyphosate to break down to anything harmless. I do use it on the ground elder under my hedges, but not where I grow veg.
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If you pull out the bind weed just after it's got 3 or 4 leaves on it every time then it'll die off of it's own accord in about 3 years. Compared to Mares Tail bind weed is easy to deal with.
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Some good advice and thanks to you all of your replies, Kea has a point about the bindweed dying back before I could get at it, as some of the beds would still have veg in them. On the other hand half the plot wouldn't.
I'm in a quandary, perhaps I should carry on digging it up early as it appears and see how it goes next year.
Don't want to poison everyone... :)
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Like Vortex, I've not found bindweed to be too troublesome, and it's pretty easy to pick the roots out from friable soil.
The story about glyphosate being deactivated when it hits the soil was what Monsanto said in their early marketing, but they don't say it now.
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Like Vortex, I've not found bindweed to be too troublesome, and it's pretty easy to pick the roots out from friable soil.
The story about glyphosate being deactivated when it hits the soil was what Monsanto said in their early marketing, but they don't say it now.
Point taken and thanks. Just thanking my lucky stars I don't have this mares tail, whatever that does, it sounds horrendous.
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We use Roundup, with no ill effects. The best time to use it is in the spring, prior to sowing. In spite of all efforts to remove the bindweed roots, inevitably some will remain. As it and other weeds begin to come through, spray with Roundup (or any similar glyphosate weedkiller).
Ideally leave for at least a week before final preparation of the bed. It won't eliminate the bindweed problem, but it will improve it considerably.
For those worried about glyphosate toxicity, the best advice is not to drink it, especially the concentrate. We take a nice flask of tea down to the allotment instead.
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My bindweed problem is certainly not as bad as it was last year after treating it with professional Roundup, the weed is smaller and weaker this time round, so I will blitz it again with professional Roundup, :)
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When it's in among your perennials - in our case raspberries, I think the plastic bag method is the safest. There's no spray drift and since you don't undo the bag once the weed is dead (just dump the whole thing into the bin) the amount taken into the soil is minimised.
We dig out as much as we can at the beginning of the season when it first appears then encourage those we've missed, or couldn't get at, to climb up bamboo poles - makes it easier to unwind and stuff into the bag.
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For those worried about glyphosate toxicity, the best advice is not to drink it, especially the concentrate. We take a nice flask of tea down to the allotment instead.
do you work for monsanto?
what a crass statement to make. there's plenty of evidence about harmful effects of roundup, check it out if you really want to know what your feeding your family.
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/glyphosa.htm
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/DMPGR.php
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7876346_Glyphosate_poisoning
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
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I was thinking of using glyphosate as well, but I read that the chemicals which are often added to glyphosate (eg surfactants to make it spread and stick to the leaves) can be environmentally harmful.
And also as many on here have said, glyphosate isn't a no-work solution to weeds either - you have to apply it carefully, often several applications will be required.
If there's one thing to say for bindweed, it's quite satisfying pulling it and having so much come out of the ground at once. It's like squeezing spots. ;)
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For those worried about glyphosate toxicity, the best advice is not to drink it, especially the concentrate. We take a nice flask of tea down to the allotment instead.
do you work for monsanto?
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etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
I don't, as it happens, but I'd be quite happy to.
But bad science makes me laugh.
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But bad science makes me laugh.
Laughing's good, but you don't have to be facile. Monsanto lied about the product when they brought it to market and it's been shown to be less benign than they made out. If you want to inform the debate then refute what you disagree with, 'cos most of us here are pretty open minded.
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We have a plotholder on our site who used to sell Roundup concentrate for £11 per litre. As a result of this, many people bought it from him. The man with the plot next to his has blanket sprayed at least half of his plot, not targetted individual weeds. I will try to take a photo of it if it ever stops raining, it looks like there has been a chemical spillage on an industrial scale. :'(
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We've had people doing that several times; it reduces the plot concerned to a sorry state, then the more noxious weeds, which aren't killed, come back, and the last state of that plot is worse than the first.
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Why is it bad science to be concerned about our health?
Roundup just might be totally harmless but there is no cure for Parkinsons Disease or dementure.
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But bad science makes me laugh.
Laughing's good, but you don't have to be facile. Monsanto lied about the product when they brought it to market and it's been shown to be less benign than they made out. If you want to inform the debate then refute what you disagree with, 'cos most of us here are pretty open minded.
Oh, good response.
I'm pretty open minded too. Rather than refute silly accusations, I'll let you go first. Produce some good science that refutes the safety certification, and I'll be all ears.
But until then, I'll not believe that glyphosate is more dangerous than the official safety stats say. And I'm afraid that I don't believe that George Bush demolished the twin towers with thermite, or that the moon landings were staged, or that Elvis is alive and well.
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Melbourne, there's a good argument to be made in favour of glyphosate, but you're not making it. There isn't good evidence of acute toxicity, but you didn't say that, you made fun. However, there is evidence of problems with glyphosate, and tonybloke has referenced some reports, so if you're argument is stronger than name-calling, let's hear it.
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Melbourne, there's a good argument to be made in favour of glyphosate, but you're not making it. There isn't good evidence of acute toxicity, but you didn't say that, you made fun. However, there is evidence of problems with glyphosate, and tonybloke has referenced some reports, so if you're argument is stronger than name-calling, let's hear it.
My argument is simply as strong as the regulatory authorities that police the use of pesticides. I believe that the tests that are done to satisfy the regulations are properly carried out, and are checked for authenticity. Indeed, they have to be repeated on a set timetable.
So that seems to me to be clear on one side of the case.
And on the other? Well, first we have to be convinced that there's some sort of conspiracy or cover up. I suppose the picture in people's minds is of top-hatted capitalists sitting round a boardroom table salivating at the though of the needless deaths that their quest for a dishonest penny will bring. Have any of you really encountered such rogues running a large organisation? I don't mean, can you imagine it? I mean, have you personally experienced it?
Second, we have to look at the evidence. It's interesting that of the three links that tonybloke gave, two summarised the evidence quite well, and if you read them, gave glyphosate a clean bill of health. Only if you chug the concentrate or splash it in your eyes will it harm you.
The third link, to ISIS, is to a politically driven site, dedicated to "exposing" the wickedness of big pharma and promoting Green Party issues. Now don't get me wrong. I'm as up for a political debate as the next man, but the way you vote has very little to do with the health of your tomatoes or the problem of getting rid of bindweed. Attempting to combine the two leads us straight back to that fantasy world of boardroom Frankensteins and the inevitable paranoia that follows.
Just a couple more points, if I may. It's a favoured technique of bad science to "prove" that something is poisonous by dousing mammalian cells with it in vitro. I don't have any real doubt that endocrine disruption does indeed occur if you splash Roundup on umbilical cord samples. It just bears no relationship to the real world. What do you think would happen if you squirted brown sauce onto the same samples? Do you think that HP Sauce should be banned? Is the suppression of such vital information a conspiracy by the bacon buttie industry? **
Finally, I notice that we're now starting to worry about "surfactants", accused of being the real villains in the alleged toxicity of Roundup formulations. And yet how many people will quite cheerfully get rid of blackfly with a spray of washing up liquid in water, and congratulate themselves on being "organic" by not using a horrid chemical.
** Brown sauce is indeed poisonous, by the way. Many moons ago, when I was a college, a fellow student took a bet to drink a pint of brown sauce. He won his bet, but shortly afterwards became unconscious and spent several extreemely uncomfortable days in hospital.
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How can you argue that the regulatory authorities are infallible when they ban products that previously they passed as fit for use? The best you can say for a licensed product is that it has not yet been found to be unacceptably harmful, or if it has then there's no less harmful alternative. History shows that it can take many years to discover the harmful effects, and the regulatory authorities are not always swift to act - the harmful surfactant in Roundup is a case in point.
Nice straw man by the way.
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Now then boys and girls, calm down!! ::)
Like many things,( in my opinion) it is what it is used for and how it is used that is key!
We supposedly have freedom of choice to use many things, weedkillers included, and other things we might have no choice.
For instance; people with heart problems invariably have no choice ( if they want to remain alive) but to take 'Warfarin' (Rat poison) for blood thinning, or Trinitrate (Nitro glycerine) for angina attacks etc. but it comes back to; ; it is what it is used for and how it is used that is key!
Here we have something of a 'personal choice' that is; to use it or not!
So as I see it; if things are kept in perspective 'a little of what you fancy does you good' and if you want to use a weedkiller to do something good for you that is fine but do we have to have these 'set toos' when all some people are doing is giving THEIR opinion on using or not using a product.
Personally; I try to not get involved in these debates where it is simply one persons opinion against another and I get a bit brassed off when people get their hair off about situations like these.
There!! I have said my bit ! so heres hoping I haven't aggravated the situation even more.
BTW I generally like the content of debates like these, because some people do research their replies, and the information they give is generally quite interesting and often educational which I like, its the 'heated' debate I can do without!
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How can you argue that the regulatory authorities are infallible when they ban products that previously they passed as fit for use? The best you can say for a licensed product is that it has not yet been found to be unacceptably harmful, or if it has then there's no less harmful alternative. History shows that it can take many years to discover the harmful effects, and the regulatory authorities are not always swift to act - the harmful surfactant in Roundup is a case in point.
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But I didn't say that they were infallible. Merely that the regulatory framework and its accompanying tests formed one side of the case, and a clear one. I realise that times change. I have a copy of the Food & Drugs Regs from the 1920s that limits the amount of arsenic in beer. Then it was acceptable to have traces of arsenic in your pint, now it isn't. We've moved on.
But had I been alive in the 1920s, I would have enjoyed my pint of bitter with an easy mind. Just as I enjoy it now. I don't shun pubs because I'm frightened that the allowable amount of carcinogens in malt will cause me to die. Even though it's entirely possible that some future regulations will limit the amount of torrefaction of barley or ban patent black malt entirely.
Pace Tee Gee, I hope this isn't regarded as heated debate. I rather thought we were all being quite civilised.
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I hope that people who don't use glyphosate products only buy organic produce - because it's used routinely on pretty much everything. I know with Asparagus it's sprayed when the soil temp is about 8 C, and with most annual crops it's sprayed a couple of weeks before sowing...
I use it sometimes but not on anywhere I'll be harvesting within the next few months. I would love to be organised enough not to use it but I'm not. And any residues will be lower than if we bought the food.
I would add that for an awfully long time, the exposure to residues on apples was based on a sample of 8 individual apples, and I would not trust the authorities in the slightest as there is a huge amount of commercial pressure.
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Just one little point Melbourne12 - I wouldnt use washingup liquid to treat blackfly. Washingup liguid is a detergent not a soap and spraying it on your plants can be very detremental unless it is washed off. Not all surfacants are the same. Some are quite toxic! I would use a little cold press soap myself.
My main concern with roundup is not that I think it will harm me particularly but the effect it may have on aquatic life.
http://lscgw1.monsanto.com/esh/msdslib.nsf/2B20DAEB04E8631C0625689700650B45/$file/Roundup%20Ultra%203000-5059en-gb.pdf (http://lscgw1.monsanto.com/esh/msdslib.nsf/2B20DAEB04E8631C0625689700650B45/$file/Roundup%20Ultra%203000-5059en-gb.pdf)
This is from monsanto and see section 12 for some toxicity data.
Each to their own I suppose and I do paint a bit of roundup on my bindweed. I just prefer not to spray it everywhere.
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No one has mentioned a Weedkiller Stick. How harmful is that?
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I remember once having a bad problem with bindweed coming through from next door's garden into my climbing rose. I trained it up a bamboo cane, then , wearing a thin rubber glove underneath an old cotton glove, I dipped my fingers into the weedkiller and stroked the weed very thoroughly. It was a lot easier than using a paintbrush to dab it on, and it worked! And I'm still alive, and it was a very long time ago!