Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: kt. on July 02, 2009, 22:49:35
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An individual who put their name down for a plot has now come to the top of our waiting list. The police have strongly advised against allocating this person a plot due to past and present occurrences involving this individual. He is supposedly being kicked off another site for moving stolen goods in and out of the plot shed but I have no written evidence of this.
At the bottom of our application forms it reads "The council reserve the right to refuse an allotment without explanation".
At out town council meeting, all except one agreed with the police, where do we stand legally regarding this issue. As a newly appointed allotment supervisor, it is the first time I have come across this
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The bit at the bottom of the application --- "The council reserve the right to refuse an allotment without explanation", is all you need legally to not give him/her a plot.
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Allotments Act 1908 Section 28 (2) Rules under this section may define the persons eligible to be tenants of allotments...
So it looks like the council have some scope to make a rule to prevent this chap getting an allotment, but how would you phrase it?
I'm not sure that the council do actually have the right to refuse a service to someone without saying why.
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how will s/he know they have got to the top of the list? ignore it till you have agreed how to deal with it?
mat
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if in doubt,check it out with the council,they should be happy to advise
rach
x
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If its a council decision, let the council write to him.
Dear Sir,
We regret to inform you that your application for an allotment within the borough of ... has been rejected.
Love and peace,
Your friendly caring town council.
(PS you Council tax is now due, cough up, or go directly to jail)
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Dear Sir, or Madam - it really doesn't matter to us, honest
Sorry, but we won't be letting you have an allotment. We'd like to, obviously - as a council we're committed to equality of opportunity and we recognise that one-legged transgender born again hasidic rasterfarian albino conjoined vegetarian ex-army travellers like yourself are under-represented on the district's allotments, but we have to think of our other tenants and we see from your application that you intend brewing comfrey tea.
Yours, Wormwood (jnr. under-troll, Parks Dept.)
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I'd be very careful about what the police say - and I have good reason to say this. They twist things and tell half-truths and also make mistakes which you have to fight very hard to get corrected.
Does he have any actual criminal convictions? If not, you are discriminating against an innocent person.
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I'd be very careful about what the police say - and I have good reason to say this. They twist things and tell half-truths and also make mistakes which you have to fight very hard to get corrected.
Does he have an actual criminal convictions? If not, you are discriminating against an innocent person.
I agree with this whle hertidly not all police officers are bright, intelligent honest people :)
On the other hand though for them to get involved at this level with an allotment comittee he must be causing some serious problems on his previous site, do you know where his previous site was? Maybe a phone call to them would clear the matter up?
From what you have said you are covered legally geeeessshhhh some people!!
Best of luck
Chris
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I'd be very careful about what the police say - and I have good reason to say this. They twist things and tell half-truths and also make mistakes which you have to fight very hard to get corrected.
Does he have any actual criminal convictions? If not, you are discriminating against an innocent person.
Unfortunately, I must agree OllieC.
In my dark past I did a few bad things, but at least I own up. The police on the other hand gave very wrong evidence about me to the Magistrate, and what galls me is that the police evidence was simply taken as truthful, and I was assumed a liar fo contesting it.
I only hope the police have improved as much as I in the meantime.
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I'd be very careful about what the police say - and I have good reason to say this. They twist things and tell half-truths and also make mistakes which you have to fight very hard to get corrected.
Does he have any actual criminal convictions? If not, you are discriminating against an innocent person.
Agree with that but then again I would find it very difficult if I had to ask him if I could borrow my rotovator, ;D
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Sorry - but if he is noted by the police for various stuff - he may not have been done for it - but if there is obviously more than a suspicion - then I would not want him on our plots.
Just as I have said no to an alcaholic refuge and a young offenders school!
Why should we tempt fate.
The police have a fair bit more to do than go round warning councils not to give allotments to various people. They must have cause to do this and it may not be connected directly with theft but may be a veiled warning about - say child abuse or some other nasty which the data protection act would not allow them to disclose to ordinary folk. If they cannot charge the guy but know he is a bad'un - why then should he be allowed to prove that he is a bad'un!!!
He certainly would not get a plot on any of our sites - too many good honest people wanting them to let to dodgy people!
How many people did that Shipman kill before he got found out - How many paedofiles are out there but we are not allowed to know - and probably rightly - are in your vicinity. If the police give a warning about someone HEED IT - this is their way of providing a warning without actually saying something!
Ollie - everyone makes mistakes - I say yet again!!!
Old Bird
:o
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Is the advice from police in writing. Surely you can give your reason for rejection as police advice. Then if the person is innocent at least they know they need to get the police records amended.
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They do Anne, and I can't even get a part-time job volunteering at the local hospital radio because of my poor choice of friends in the past!
You should see my (enhanced) CRB check - makes it look like I was hanging around with gangsters the whole time and selling wholesale quantities of drugs to cops. All over something where I was found not guilty by 12 normal people, in a unanimous verdict having considered all the evidence and not just the opinion of a few policemen. It is very biased and completely unfair, and unsurprisingly fails to quote the judge who said "The whole thing was a complete waste of time and never should have come before his court".
Despite being not guilty, my DNA is still on file and the same opinions are still used to hang me... It's also put a halt to any chance of becoming a teacher, which is what I was hoping to retrain as over the next couple of years now that the bottom's fallen out of the mortgage market...
Of course there are plenty of good policemen & women out there, but there are also fat, lazy, dog-cooking ones who think they're the only ones allowed to make a mistake. And they're screwing with my life.
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If the Council are the ones agreeing that this person should not have a plot, and it's a Council site, then refer the matter to them to deal with. Otherwise, insist on having the police advice in writing, and warn them that you're going to give the person a copy. If they don't want to commit themselves to paper, assume it's dodgy.
Ollie, that's horrendous. If you were found not guilty that should be the end of it. Have you consulted a solicitor?
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Hi Ollie as someone who has never knowingly broken the law I've encountered the the police in other circumstances, while several have been ok you have my sympathy as some are arrogant illeducated lazy.....I could go on and sadly my wonderful grandson wants to join them.Still i've got a few years to change his mind
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I can take on board what Ollie is saying about passed convictions, but the RoO act 1974 means absolutely sod all for the type of work Ollie is talking about or even jobs I have applied for and I have done nothing but only because of certain views I hold, I just hope all our fiddling MP's fall into this category when they start to apply for jobs when they get the bullet at the next election, ;)
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Just to be absolutely clear, I was found not guilty. I have never been cautioned or convicted of any criminal offence, so Rehabilitation of Offenders is irrelevant to me - I'm not an offender! It took 3 weeks for the jury to hear all the evidence - so anything I or the police say can only ever be a biased summary. This is my problem with the police mumbling an opinion & it being used to make a judgement about someone...
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Seeing this kind of thing from the other end I would hope that tthis person was given the benefit of the doubt and offered a plot, especially as there appears to be no actual evidence that they have committed a crime....but I know that in reality chinese whispers and corruption are rife and if someone has decided you are a bad egg then you don't stand a chance >:(
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Allotmenteers acting as judge and jury ?....that can't be right.
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I think we have all done something that we regret. Sorry that it is still deviling some of us.
However, the one thing to find out about this individual is whether he was "kicked off" another site. If he was within the last 12 months then I think the council have no opition than to refuse him an allotment. If he could not get on at one allotment how do you know he will change? besides first time anything happens on the site he will get the blame and he might probably be an innocent part, that will cause all sorts of tensions on the site.
If his offense at the other allotment was more than 12 months ago then he should be given a chance (say 12 months trial).
Bill
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the one thing to find out about this individual is whether he was "kicked off" another site.
History apparently includes animal cruelty twice, prosecuted by the RSPCA, kicked off one of our other sites 3 years ago and now being kicked off his current site. As all staff have changed over, it is taking a little longer to confirm these details or to check if there has been a mix up with the individual. I do not know him, do not know of him, never met the chap, just hearing what his alleged offences are. Nobody can confirm this in writing at present so we are on hold whilst we are looking into the business with the other site.
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. If this person has been had up for animal cruelty twice and actually prosecuted by the RSPCA then I wouldn't want them to be on the plot next to me.If he has previously been put off two sites then I don't think that the council will let him have another. It also seems that this person isn't someone who is sorry for what he did in the past cos if he's just been put off his current allotment then he is obviously not towing the line somewhere or other.I would leave it to the council who will have the last say.
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It does rather sound like he's had his second chance. And his third, and his fourth, and so on... Can't say I'd want to share a site with him if it's true!
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The word APPARENTLY is the key here...as yet there is NO written evidence that this person has actually done anything....until then I see no reason why this person shouldn't get the plot they are entitled to. But I can see from the actions of our government and the replies on this thread that innocent until proven guilty is but a distant dream.
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Sure And the road doesn't need a zebra crossing till some little kid dies.
Theres a huge waiting list out there. Pass him by. If he takes it to court..... then decide what to do then.
Why isn't white and black not black anymore, Too many PC people calling every colour grey wears a bit thin.
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If they have been turned off two alloments then they have had to be doing something that is against allotment rules, otherwise they could stay put.
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maybe i am missing something
a person's criminal record is subject to some confidentiality
why should the police be pronouncing on a person's suitability for an allotment
that's an offence! even if the allegations are true
if there are grounds for refusal and there is evidence then get on with it refuse him - don't hide behind whispers
someone needs to start using the new lynx and grow some maracas
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If - and I repeat - IF - this person does a nasty, is a paedophile, a rapist or whatever - and does something to somethings or someone on the site - who are you then going to blame - no doubt - the Police, the Council or these liberal people that say unless someone is convicted of a crime they should be free to run about potentially causing nuisance or much worse!
We have - any number of times - seen posts on this site about sheds being broken into, stuff stolen, damaged etc. Why - if you are given a warning - (and they certainly would not give it in writing! for goodness sake where are you at) There are a number of known "iffy" characters that have not - as yet - been caught red handed but are "known" for whatever reasons.
The police are not allowed, due to the Data Protection Act and whatever other relevant human rights acts there are to specify where convicted paedophiles, murderers and ex criminals now live. There are also potentially dangerous schizophrenics out there that, without their medication, are a big threat! We have seen several murders in the papers about these!
Ollie - I am sorry that you feel as you do - but at the time - when you were due to go to Court - you did admit that your "choice of friends" was what got you into that position!
I still feel - VERY STRONGLY - that you should take notice of the warning!
The Council or whoever does not need to give this person a reason - although if he is criminally minded - he may well have a clue!
Old Bird
:o
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After having worked with schizophrenics for years, I can safely say that this is scaremongering. OK, the occasional schizophrenic can be dangerous. So can the occasional non-schizophrenic. 99.9% are no threat to anyone but themselves, just as 99.9% of the rest of us are no threat to anyone. What do you want to do, bang up a very large number of perfectly harmless people, at vast expense, just in case the odd one somewhere turns out to be dangerous?
In my experience, the very occasional dangerous individual has other problems as well, and isn't hard to spot.
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I think we have all done something that we regret
I can't see the police making this sort of recommendation for something regretable. I'm with you Oldbird. You appear to have been warned.
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oops
apparently, irrational fears about security and the threat to one's person and one's property rise in an inverse proportion to one's age
in other words older people tend to be more fearful
lots of old people on here today!!!
dax
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oops
apparently, irrational fears about security and the threat to one's person and one's property rise in an inverse proportion to one's age
in other words older people tend to be more fearful
lots of old people on here today!!!
dax
"rising in inverse proportion" means decreasing with age - is that what you mean? And I have a question - who told you that a criminal record is confidential? All convictions are in the public domain.
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apparently, irrational fears about security and the threat to one's person and one's property rise in an inverse proportion to one's age
Since the beginning of this year, my shed has been broken into twice (only had items stolen once though so that's all right), our site building (100 foot long brick built Victorian stable) was burnt to the ground with all the contents by arsonists, my fruit cage nets have been slashed and the fruit stolen (second year running) and my plot has been trashed by moronic couldn't-care-less neighbours running amok with a strimmer (also for the second year running). Oh, forgot about the offensive weapon I found at the back of my plot after one of the break-ins.
My site is in one of the more affluent, leafy Greater London boroughs.
Yes, I am irrationally fearful about security and the threat to my person and property.
No, I'm not old.
Your post is one of the stupidest I have read here.
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Your post is one of the stupidest I have read here.
I actually found it quite offensive but decided it was possibly just me & the pain & the painkillers... so I deleted what I was going to type as I keep snapping these days!
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Your first instinct was right Ollie.
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I've heard enough,I'm getting the posse together lets run the schizophrenic paedophile rapist murderer animal hater out of town who's with me lets ride
Ollie C you can be scout
Another post started with he said she said
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm265/Buster1954/posse.jpg)
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In relation to it being older people that fuss more about criminals and violent crime - I think not - I don't have children that I need to keep from paedophiles and yes it is the younger people that are jumping up and down "what about my babies".
I have friends and acquaintances that have criminal convictions, I don't know many violent criminals and gangsters but fraudsters and the like. I am certainly not "a timid "old lady".
I am always ready to wade in - if needed!
Luckily it is not my allotments in question so certainly not my problem.
Daxzen - I don't know how old you are but you obviously aren't very mature.
Part of evaluating life is also evaluating the risks.
Robert - absolutely true - I had generalized massively - and I apologise for insulting some people with mental health issues - but it is fair to say that unless some schizophrenics take their medication regularly - some can become a danger to the public!
I am not in the least worried about my own security. My car is never locked - my house is not locked during the day - I walk miles off the beaten track with no mobile signal - without any fear. So a bit of a generalization there Dax!
Age is a number - Wisdom comes with age.
Old (in name only!!) Bird
;D
Hope the painkillers are helping Ollie!
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i believe that if you fall fould of the law then you pay the price thru the courts etc after that you have the chance for rehabiliation - if there are unproven allegations then they are hearsay - gossip!
I dont understand how a police report has been submitted on an allotment application, if it was done formally then there is no breach of confidentiality but what a waste of resources - if it was done informally then there has been an offence committed
Why the personal remarks? I think that age and maturity are not linked and also age and experience are not linked either.
just cos you have been round the block a few times does not make you wise
dax
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id say one thing if this guy is causing this much concern on a internet site talking about growing veg then one must wonder what would happen if he was allowed a plot and how long it will take for your plots to get wind and what will it be then complete mayhem until he moved on again you have the right to say no so use it if the police and the RSPCA have all got something to say about him there seems to be enough of a warning bell for me
KTLAWSON it ain't worth the peace and quite that someone comes to expect on site to be upset by someone else insuring there is trouble
there is enough squabble chatter and backstabbing going on without adding to it
pick your fights this isn't one to get involved in unless you have square shoulders this will come back and bite you in the a***
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Well I would not want this person on the next plot to me, no smoke without fire, and all that.
June.
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Dax
I totally agree with you about going through the courts - paying the price and off you go again. But - I don't know how old you are or whether you have kids/animals or not - would you like this "person" on the next door plot to you?
I have been an anti hunt protester all my life - I have been to hunt meetings where I am in the minority of 1 to 500 hunt supporters. I have had abuse from these people - incidentally hunting still continues and they will be killing young deer within 5-6 weeks again here on Exmoor, some earlier poster said that hunting was banned - I so wish that it were!
I am not a bystander in life - tut tutting when things go wrong like some. Sure ignore the warning and watch this space.
Dax you say that there has been an offence committed by the policeman and what a waste of resources etc. The personal remarks directed at you were in retaliation for your earlier remarks about age!
But - I would think it pointless to discuss anything with you as you have not the maturity to think through to a logical conclusion.
I certainly would not stand by and let a kid/animal be beaten up - I would report a child crying continually - wouldn't you? Silly question I suppose! Because you wouldn't - or would you?
Old Bird
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Well, it seems he's been hung drawn and quartered here well before he's got to the top of the list.
Can you imagine if he managed to get a plot - every time someone mislaid a tool - he'd get the blame; any vandalism - him of course; a carelessly thrown cigarette end burns down the trading shed - he's an arsonist. And if the rumours turn out not to be true? Well, mud sticks, unfortunately and unfairly. And any friends he has - they are just as guilty, just because they chose to be friends with him.
And while we're on the subject of criminals, I have a friend who has just come out of prison - he is still a good friend, and I would trust him with my life. He is a good person - but broke a stupid law. The police would say otherwise, though.
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History apparently includes animal cruelty twice, prosecuted by the RSPCA, kicked off one of our other sites 3 years ago and now being kicked off his current site.
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Nobody can confirm this in writing at present so we are on hold whilst we are looking into the business with the other site.
Possible animal cruelty obviously very bad (if true), but irrelevant to having an allotment unless he's said he wants to keep chickens or something.
Allegedly being kicked off existing site far more relevant and I think you are doing the right thing by holding off till you've established if this is true and if so why it's happened.
Anyway hope it all works out!
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Come on dax, --- make my day, ;D
Seriously, If no one had known of this persons ''apparent'' dubious past, would we not
have welcomed him/her onto our site, given freely any leftover plants etc, helped with advice
if needed and given them a cuppa tea !
Who do we know who is amongst us ? Those of us who are observant and astute, will soon
get a few warning bells. Take it from there , have always formed my own opinions about people
I meet, despite any scare mongering or adverse gossip.
My chin is ready ! ;D
floss xxx
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We turfed a chap off our site last year, who, on enquiry, had been on several sites in the area and behaved in the same way on each. Had we known about his behaviour we would have thought twice about giving him a plot.
This chap was in no way the same league as your man here. He simply came up with many many excuses as to why he couldn't work the land. Most of them sounded genuine, but after 9 months I did some ringing and he is notorious in the area for this.
Allotments function on trust, meet the chap and trust your instincts....
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Why the personal remarks?
Because you're talking nonsense!
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animal cruelty obviously very bad (if true), but irrelevant to having an allotment unless he's said he wants to keep chickens or something
I disagree. If this is true, this person is evidently a nasty piece of work and I wouldnt want such a vile sadist as a neighour, regardless of any allotment-related crimes. This can hardly be compared with a past shoplifting or drug offence!
Have you Googled him? You may find links to local newspaper stories. Also suggest contacting the RSPCA, and get confirmation from the police if possible.
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Have you looked at the court records for this person? I was warned a couple of years ago about an individual with whom I was doing business, (not by the police) and I found a whole history of court appearances and convictions. In this case, what I found lead me to terminated my business dealings.
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i give in
lol
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PS not some old fogie but good sensible business practice. Not rumour, but sound evidence.
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Dax is right in that fear of crime (in relation to victimisation) in general does tend to rise proportionatly with age. However it does not apply to all crimes and of course it is a huge generality with many other contributing factors.
Personally I'd give him the plot. Unless we check everyone one on our waiting list for suitability I wouldn't single out a specific person. I have no idea about the past of my fellow plotholders nor is it my concern.
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You can check out court judgements online
http://www.trustonline.org.uk/
Probably also worth checking out if anyone is using your name in vain.