Allotments 4 All
Produce => Pests & Diseases => Topic started by: Digeroo on June 29, 2009, 22:48:29
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I emailed the ACP The advisory Committee for Pesticides on
acp@hse.gsi.gov.uk
and got the reply
Thank you for your email. I will ensure that it is made available at tomorrows meeting of the Advisory Committee on Pesticides (ACP) so that they are aware of your concerns.
If you are concerned about this product please send them am email asap.
The meeting is tomorrow, Tuesday 30th June 2009.
Any concerns need to be expressed.
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ta for the link, just sent them an email to express my concerns ;) ;)
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Thanks Tonybloke,
I am sure this has all been done before, but i feel strongly that we need to maintain the offensive.
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i've also mailed them :)
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me an' all :)
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And me!
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me too >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Just got an email with this letter attached:
Dear Sir/Madam
Thank you for your comments about the use of aminopyralid and the resultant use of manure containing residues that has affected allotment and garden crops.
I hope I can provide some reassurance to you with this letter. Firstly, I can confirm that residues of aminopyralid in manure do not pose a risk to human or animal health. The independent Advisory Committee on Pesticides (ACP) has carefully considered a comprehensive data package that includes studies on the residues in plants grown with manure containing traces of aminopyralid. The Committee has concluded that if plants do grow in this manure, they will not contain residues of aminopyralid that will be harmful to health.
As you are aware there can be a risk to certain plants as aminopyralid is a herbicide (weedkiller) that is active at very low doses against a wide variety of plants. The Committee is aware of just how upsetting it can be to lose your crops unexpectedly in this way. They have therefore considered a number of restrictions to be placed on the use of products containing aminopyralid, along with details of a product stewardship programme, designed to ensure that users are aware of the particular requirements for the safe use of such products. These new requirements would have the effect of restricting the use of the products so that any manure, produced by livestock that had eaten grass treated with aminopyralid, would not leave the farms on which it has been produced. Similarly, there will be restrictions to prevent the contamination of hay or silage, and hence there will be no movement of residues of aminopyralid away from the farms where it has been used.
The Committee were satisfied that with these stringent controls in place, there should be no new manure available to buy that might contain these residues. However, in addition to stopping the contamination problem at its source, the Committee have also noted that there might be gardeners and allotment holders who already have manure that might contain residues. The approval holder for products containing aminopyralid, Dow Agrosciences has undertaken to provide a testing kit to allow you to check your manure, and if found to contain these residues they will arrange for it to be removed for you.
Subject to these additional controls designed to prevent any further problems of manure containing residues of aminopyralid, the Committee has advised Ministers that they could consider lifting the current suspension on approval for the use of products, containing aminopyralid, on grassland for grazing, where products offer very useful control for a wide range of weeds.
At the time of writing it is not clear what Ministers will decide in the light of this advice.
With thanks for your email.
Yours faithfully
Professor J G Ayres
ACP Chairman
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can't remember who has a load of contaminated stuff on their plot but I'm repeating this bit for them
The Committee were satisfied that with these stringent controls in place, there should be no new manure available to buy that might contain these residues. However, in addition to stopping the contamination problem at its source, the Committee have also noted that there might be gardeners and allotment holders who already have manure that might contain residues. The approval holder for products containing aminopyralid, Dow Agrosciences has undertaken to provide a testing kit to allow you to check your manure, and if found to contain these residues they will arrange for it to be removed for you.
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I think they are going to have to provide a lot of testing kits - one kit per load of manure? We have 10-20 car-loads a year, the manure could come from different parts of the main pile, put on at different times, and from different sources. I would have to do several tests per load to be sure.
So where is all the contaminated manure going to be kept? Farmers can't spread it on their land if they are going to grow susceptible crops, that's for sure. And what will Dow do with all the sh!t they collect? Hmmm, it's got to go somewhere, and someone has got to make some money out of it. Dow certainly don't want to lose on this one.
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I'll tell you where it is all going to go. It is all going to go where it goes already. You cannot sue the manure supplier unless you can prove that the manure is contaminated and you got it from them, therefore the supplier will boldly state that the product is clean.
The user must assume it is contaminated until the users own tests prove otherwise.
You can ignore me, you can laugh at me but please do not fill the forum with posts next year about your sick tomatoes and beans.
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What if you bought your manure who is going to compensate you for that?
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What if you bought your manure who is going to compensate you for that?
No-one - because if it's contaminated no-one will admit responsibility for selling it to you. There are so many loopholes that those further up the chain can hide behind, that the only people who will not benefit from this is the end user - us. And what's the betting that there will be an almost impossible obstacle course to get a pile of contaminated manure removed.
I wonder how the media will deal with this I think gardeners Q time and GW will be worth listening to, I think it will be along the lines of "new procedures are in place so future manure will be safe to use". And some people will believe it.
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can't remember who has a load of contaminated stuff on their plot but I'm repeating this bit for them
The Committee were satisfied that with these stringent controls in place, there should be no new manure available to buy that might contain these residues. However, in addition to stopping the contamination problem at its source, the Committee have also noted that there might be gardeners and allotment holders who already have manure that might contain residues. The approval holder for products containing aminopyralid, Dow Agrosciences has undertaken to provide a testing kit to allow you to check your manure, and if found to contain these residues they will arrange for it to be removed for you.
i got the same reply and it's probably me you are thinking of i've got about 8 ton of suspect manure, i don't care about being compensated for the cost of the manure i will just be happy if they remove it :)
i still don't see how they can control this from happening again so i think it's unlikely that i will be buying anymore manure.
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And I'll bet that the 'testing kit' is a 3" pot and a bean seed.
We were told last year by the PSD that laboratory type testing was hugely expensive and not worthwhile because the quantities of aminopyralid are so miniscule and so tightly bound to the lignin that extraction to prove the presence of aminopyralid is highly unreliable and testing may well produce false negatives. I confirmed this with the Central Science Laboratory and one other lab used by the PSD.
The Central Science Laboratory conducted one postive test to prove the chain of contamination where a farmer admitted spraying and the manure was reliably traceable through to the end result of damaged plants.
So now we have a cheap and cheerful testing kit which Dow are going to hand out free?
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I thohg I would start another petition about this. What to keep it very simple.
Our beans and other veggies are dying due to contamination of aminopryalid. Please do no allow the reintroduction of this product in the UK.
What you you think folks?
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And I'll bet that the 'testing kit' is a 3" pot and a bean seed.
I've patented that method so I think that should entitle me to shall we say, 5p for each broad bean seed sold. I can see a holiday coming on. 8) 8)
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And I'll bet that the 'testing kit' is a 3" pot and a bean seed.
I've patented that method so I think that should entitle me to shall we say, 5p for each broad bean seed sold. I can see a holiday coming on. 8) 8)
Absolutely :) :) :) :) :)
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A broad bean seed is a bit of an extravagance. Surely a french bean would be more profitable. ;D ;D
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If I wasn't such a nice chap I would have patented peas instead. 10p to pee, 1p for a test pea. Such a bargain.
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In view of fact that there are plans by the Advisory Committee on Pesticides to re-license Aminopyralid, I have written to my MP requesting that this be opposed.
I came across a useful website which gives the name and contact details of all elected Representatives. You just input your post code and up comes the information. You can then write within the same website and your letter is sent directly to your MP.
The site is www.writetothem.com
The more people that write to their MP opposing the re-licensing of Aminopyralid, the more likely it is to be effective.
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So the test kit will give a negative result, because laboratory tests for this aminopyralid are so unreliable, then Dow can wash their hands of any responsibility for your ten tons of toxic waste; whilst looking, to a bunch of non-gardening law makers, like they have engaged the full rigours of science in a responsible fashion.
So, we all stop using manure, how do we maintain our allotments, long term, without manure and what do farmers do with all their useless manure?
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The whole thing does not make sense. This product is for use on grass lond. What is the grass for. To feed to the animals, who then produce contaminated manure.
Even if it is not sold where is it going to go. This will put an end to muck spreading. Where the stuff is just hurled round onto the ground with a machine. So the next crop also becomes contaminated, and then this one is sold as feed stuff.....
Soon all our food and crops will be contaminated.
There are supposed to be very clear guidelines for use. But we all know how it is, if all else fails then read the instructions.
When all the manure is contaminated then Dow will try and sell us fertilizers.....
We do not need a test kit we can see the results.
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So, we all stop using manure, how do we maintain our allotments, long term, without manure and what do farmers do with all their useless manure?
Not so sure about stopping the use of manure but it must be used with caution.If your manure has not been tested by growing a reliable indicator plant in it, it must not be used. This also applies to purchased composts.
And now I'm going to stir the shit up a bit, something I do not normally do, Unless the Soil Association and similar organizations grant permits for its use on organic farms, within the next 3 years most if not all organic produce will be contaminated and sold illegally. The Organic movement is dead.
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Unless the Soil Association and similar organizations grant permits for its use on organic farms,
I am confused by this. How could permitting it on organic farms be acceptable.
The Organic movement is dead.
I agree with you there. I believe that this is a major disaster in the making. Not just for organics.
When I was a child I read a book called 'the silent spring'. Looks like the predictions in that book may come true again.
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The genie was out of the bottle the day the first of these products was approved. We have in all likelihood been eating meat, dairy products and drinking milk that contains traces of aminopyralid since day one.
The Safety Data Sheet for Forefront says to keep livestock out of treated areas for at least 7 days after treatment. Does anyone believe that happens? It also says that manure/slurry shouldn't be used for composting/mulching. We all know the farmers ignored that one.
The problem we have is that, compared to the farming lobby, we are chicken-sh1t. Even at the height of the problem last year, only 1500 people signed the petition. If you weren't affected or didn't know someone who was affected, you didn't bother. And even if you were affected, some didn't bother doing anything. Last year, in the round of Parliamentary questions, DEFRA reported they had received some 70 reports of contamination. Until the millions of gardeners in this country make their voices heard, nothing will happen.
Digeroo, Garden Organic (formerly HDRA) guidelines on Organic growing allow the use of "Straw, hay and farmyard and horse manures from non-Organic sources - after being aerobically composted for three months or stockpiled for six months (The extra time is to allow some breakdown of any chemical residues that might be present.)". This guideline was presumably developed at a time when 6 months was known to be long enough. But, as we know, aminopyralid doesn't break down if the manure is stacked.
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Not only are we chicken **** but also Dow are probably doing their utmost to fight.
However though I have come late to this I feel very strongly about this. My world, our world is being poisoned.
The farmers are making a choice on my behalf and I find that unacceptable. It seems I cannot reject this chemical.
The Safety Data Sheet for Forefront says to keep livestock out of treated areas for at least 7 days after treatment.
Seven years sounds like a more acceptable length of time to me!!!
It also says that manure/slurry shouldn't be used for composting/mulching.
So what on earth are they going to do with it.? No more muck spreading?
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Be very aware that Dow is watching this thread like a hawk >:( >:( >:(
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I very much hope so.
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Be very aware that Dow is watching this thread like a hawk >:( >:( >:(
Dunno why they'd bother, they know full well that the government will listen to their 'science' over some gardeners' anecdotal evidence.
What I don't understand about this product, is what is it actually meant to be for, if it's not for producing food for livestock. Surely the cost of buying in hay, or the hassle of producing hay without its use, would be less than the hassle and cost of disposing of thousands of tons of paying contaminated animal waste; unless of course, as we all know, you dispose of the waste in a way that you're not meant to, id est palm ito off on an unsuspecting third party.
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The letter comes from Professor J G Ayres Just gave him a google. Seems to be a doctor of environmental medicine, at birmingham. No connection with farming at all.
Seems to be an expert on air pollution and asthma. But this does not cause asthma so thats ok then.
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The letter comes from Professor J G Ayres Just gave him a google. Seems to be a doctor of environmental medicine, at birmingham. No connection with farming at all.
Seems to be an expert on air pollution and asthma. But this does not cause asthma so thats ok then.
I know a little bit about how the ACP works. It is a committee of both prominent scientists and lay people, with expertise in poisons, toxicology, sustainable agriculture, pest management, ecology nutrition food safety etc. There is no representation from the chemical industry.
The committee is also backed by observers from Environment Agency, Natural England, and the Food Standards Agency amongst others. The fact that Professor Ayres has no connection to farming is good thing.
The committee does on many occasions refuse to approval a pesticide. So on this occasion they must be satisfied with the process that Dow have put forward to ensure that aminopyralid does not again get into manure and end up in gardens or allotments.
Have you contacted Dow to tell them how much manure you have?
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Hi Gbar, you seem to know goes on behind the scenes with respect to aminopyralid. Perhaps you could declare your interest so that we can put your posts in context? Thanks.
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Thankyou Gbar. Welcome to the site. I hope you have read all the posts about this subject.
This stuff is still causing problems some time after it has been removed from the market. Dow cannot possibly police its use.
How much have I got? about four bucket loads, and it is doing a huge amount of damage.
I have contacted Dow and they do not feel inclined to reply. Perhaps you could PM me with better contact details.
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Digeroo, have you tried this email address? It was the one given out last year for contact about aminopyralid:
UKHotline@dow.com
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Sent a quick email I will not hold my breathe.
I just hope Professor J G Ayres from Birmingham University, has some idea of precidely what Dow thinks is going to happen to all this manure. After all the product is going to be put on grass that is then to be eaten leading to contaminated manure.
Does Professor J G Ayres from Birmingham University know that he might be involved directly in the death of organic farming and gardening.
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I wrote the following to Professor Ayres in response to his letter sent out to us by the ACP:
"Thank you for your recent letter on this subject sent out by the ACP. As an allotment gardener whose plot was badly contaminated last year, I'd be grateful if you would answer some additional questions on the proposed re-introduction of products containing aminopyralid.
1. How will the restrictions on movement of manure contaminated with aminopyralid operate such that it cannot enter the supply chain to amateur gardeners? Will some substance (e.g. a dye) be added to the weedkiller products such that it is obvious from it's appearance that resulting manure is contaminated and therefore cannot be sold/transferred on. Will it also be visually obvious from the appearance of hay/silage/feed stuffs that they have been sprayed such that livestock and stable owners cannot mistake the fact?
Because, if as I fear, the restriction is merely a strengthened admonition on the Safety Data Sheet, it won't work. The users of these products to date have felt entirely able to ignore the instructions on the Safety Data Sheet. I understand that the Safety Data Sheet has the force of law but not a single user of aminopyralid-based products has been held accountable and prosecuted because of the difficulty in proving the chain of contamination and in testing for the presence of aminopyralid in damaged plants. How will amateur gardeners be better protected and able to take action against those who break the law under the proposed new restrictions?
2. When my plot was contaminated last year, I looked into the issue of testing for the presence of aminopyralid in manure and damaged plants. I contacted the Central Science Laboratory and another laboratory suggested by the (then) PSD. The conclusion of my investigation was that it is possible to test for the presence of aminopyralid. However, the amounts are so miniscule and it is so tightly bound to lignin that extraction for testing is problematical. Testing may well produce false negatives and is prohibitively expensive for the amateur gardener. So I am quite surprised to read that the manufacturer will make test kits available to those of us with possibly contaminated manure. Will these test kits be free-of-charge? How will they overcome the problems of testing that I encountered last year?
Or is my suspicion correct that we will be provided with a 3" pot and a bean seed? Because, if so, this proves that those making decisions on behalf of allotment holders and amateur gardeners understand little about the logistics and timing of growing crops on a small scale.
3. If the new restrictions do work and contaminated manure is contained on farms, how will farmers dispose of the mounting quantities? The recommendation is to spread it on pasture/grassland but surely the concentration of aminopyralid will rise if contaminated manure is constantly spread on the same areas. Farmers dispose of the quantities of manure they have no use for themselves and the supply to amateur gardeners is a cost-effective route for them - they avoid landfill disposal charges and in some cases gain small revenues where they are able to sell it rather than give it away. What will they do with it under the proposed new restrictions?"
He has replied saying that he will take further soundings and that they wish to try to do what they can to sort this situation out.
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At least he actually replied.
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What was his response to you?
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Same as you he is going to make 'further soundings'.
Dow are now maskerding as Manure Matters. Details of the 'test' are now on their web site.
http://www.manurematters.co.uk/equine_health.htm
And yes it is a pot and some broad beans.!!!!
Don't know why they don't choose dwarf french the effect is much more dramatic, and even quicker with sun flowers.
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if dow are watching this thread, how about you reply to your emails >:(
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staris, have you tried this addy? Colin Bowers is the person who replied last year to emails.
CRBOWERS@dow.com
The other emails I have are:
UKHotline@dow.com
DowAgroSciencesUK@dow.com
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I got a response from dow on
manurematters@stewardship-ltd.co.uk
Our problem seems to come associated with woodchippings and this is contrary to expectations. So this might show there is another way for this stuff to get transmitted. I am trying to find out how the aminopryalid got there, but because the manure containing the chippings is quite old I am concerned that the trail will go a bit cold. I have come across a reference to the rotted hay being washed out and the aminopryalid being concentrated.
The web site manurematters is very clearly dow, but the emails were not so clear.
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staris, have you tried this addy? Colin Bowers is the person who replied last year to emails.
CRBOWERS@dow.com
The other emails I have are:
UKHotline@dow.com
DowAgroSciencesUK@dow.com
thanks ceres i'll try the top one i've tried the other 2, maybe they are hoping i might just go away as i''ve asked them when they are going to removed my manure ;D
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Am I right in thinking Dow is a 'partner' of Monsanto?
Not friends of organic farmers are they.
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They're not friends of anyone - think napalm and agent orange >:( >:( >:(
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Hi Gbar, you seem to know goes on behind the scenes with respect to aminopyralid. Perhaps you could declare your interest so that we can put your posts in context? Thanks.
Hi Ceres
Yes I do know a little of what goes on behind the scenes. I have worked in the industry for over 30 years and am at present an independent stewardship advisor. I run the Manurematters web site for Dow, and Digeroo it has been very clear all along that this web site has been run by Dow; they have their name and logo at the top of each page so there has been no masquerading.
You also know that I have have answered all you e-mails promptly and I will continue to do so.
No Dow are not a partner to Monsanto they are completely separate companies.
Ceres I hope that puts my posts in context. I am happy to respond to any emails that you would like to send me through Manure Matters or as Digeroo say's through manurematters@stewardship-ltd.co.uk
If you don't mind I will still chip in if there is any point I can clarify.
Gbar
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Thank you for coming clean Gbar. There is as much bad information as good on this subject and we can only make sense of it by understanding the sources. Now we know you work for Dow, we can assess your contributions accordingly.
Apart from running manurematters, do you report back to Dow on what members of the forums you have joined are saying/asking about Dow/aminopyralid either formally/informally? Is that part of your remit?
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the scenes. I have worked in the industry for over 30 years and am at present an independent stewardship advisor. I run the Manurematters web site for Dow,
Please could you explain how you can be indepentent and run a web site for dow.
Your emails do not state dow, so I still believe you are masquarading.
The stewardship for this product appears to be heavily reliant on pieces of signed paper, and I fail to understand how these are going to protect gardeners and allotmenteers. They are designed to protect dow.
Please could you explain who precisely wants this product, am I right it is rich horsey people? Do these people care for anyone but themselves?
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Please could you explain how you can be indepentent and run a web site for dow.
Independent = freelance/self-employed. Not independent as in unbiased/impartial.
Your emails do not state dow, so I still believe you are masquarading.
If you used the manurematters email address, you clicked on it on a page that has a Dow Agroscience banner and a Dow copyright notice at the foot. Who did you think was going to reply to the email if not Dow? They have never made a secret of being the owner of manurematters. In fact they took out large adverts in the gardening press about it. It's one of the things they chose to do to try to get aminopyralid approvals re-instated. There are threads about it on A4A from the tail end of last year. I bumped one for you. It's old news. The website doesn't matter.
Please could you explain who precisely wants this product, am I right it is rich horsey people? Do these people care for anyone but themselves?
Do farmers qualify as rich horsey people? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Actually I got an email from manure matters seemingly out of the blue. Assume they either picked it up from my profile or when I emailled dow.
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No Dow are not a partner to Monsanto they are completely separate companies.
I disagree, Dow and Monsanto have formed a 'Global Partnership' they announced it themselves in 2006. To my understanding Dow AgroSciences LLC is a subsidiary of the two companies. Dow and Monsanto cross license intellectual properties and technology properties. Dow having rights to develop hybrids that combine Monsanto's 'Round-up ready' technology with their own technologies.
They have worked in partnership on several products, they are partners.
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They have worked in partnership on several products, they are partners.
Here:
http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?id=16471 (http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?id=16471)
As a sub-contractor running the website, I doubt if Gbar is qualified or authorised to make those kind of statements on behalf of Dow, but maybe he'll correct me and tell us exactly what his remit is.
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thanks ceres i'll try the top one i've tried the other 2, maybe they are hoping i might just go away as i''ve asked them when they are going to removed my manure ;D
staris, if you haven't had a response yet try the UKHotline@dow.com again. I contacted the ACP on the current unresponsiveness of Dow. They were surprised as this email is the one their project manager provided for all enquiries and said they would go back to Dow. I've just had a response to my outstanding query, so worth you trying again maybe?
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Hello folks
Doent it seem like this is such a long and miserable time that Dow have subject us to. I'm glad that those partisan non gardeners who have
no tips hints or help to share just company standpoint and spin have finally revealed themsleves.
I dont like the way he singled out ceres. There are many of use standing with her and behind her.
anyway there is a new petition to try to prevent the go ahead for Dow and thier customers to ruin more soil and damage seemily forever organic local food production in a community. its at this link http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/aminopyralidban/sign
please sign and make it clear that we are not going to go away and if anything more peoples plots and gardens have been ruined since the last petition.
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thanks ceres i'll try the top one i've tried the other 2, maybe they are hoping i might just go away as i''ve asked them when they are going to removed my manure ;D
staris, if you haven't had a response yet try the UKHotline@dow.com again. I contacted the ACP on the current unresponsiveness of Dow. They were surprised as this email is the one their project manager provided for all enquiries and said they would go back to Dow. I've just had a response to my outstanding query, so worth you trying again maybe?
thanks ceres, i've now had a reply saying they will be in contact soon to discuss arrangements.
and thanks for posting the petiton link sunloving, i've signed it.
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Signed it. So far the only response to anything I've signed has been a self-serving account of what they claim they're doing already, but we have to try.
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Signed it too. I'm following all this with interest and am 100% behind Ceres and all of you who are working so hard to keep this awful stuff out of our lives. Well done all :)
Lushy x
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C'mon Ceres, sign the petition!
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I know nothing about the Aminopyralid problem as I have not bought any manure for over 25 years, I make my own compost and have always thought that is the best. I do however remember that back in the 50 s when we grew cucumbers and tomatoes on straw bales that you sometimes ran into trouble from the selective weedkillers being released as the straw rotted. Do we really need all this manure for our veg, I grow most types of veg. with no problems with out buying manure, in fact if I did buy I could not get it to my garden.
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Ah, yes. Let me just point out first that most of us do not buy our manure. It is a free resource but sometimes transport has to be paid for.
As to using the manure, I'm sure that there are many areas that have lovely soil that do not really need manure but anyone working on heavy clay will know how quickly the soil turns to concrete without vast amounts of added humus. Horse manure is ideal because it is both free and low in fertilizers and therefore can be applied in large quantities.
Compost will work but there is an inherent problem of space required to produce it, never mind sourcing suitable ingredients. My compost factory occupies about one pole of my precious space and that would need to be increased 5 fold to come close to competing with the manure I use.
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Signed it (again).
Blessed with a mountain of neat 4 - 5 yr. old rotted horse poo, self collected.
Suffered in 2007 from the dreaded! Sorted it (not difficult if you have the ground).
This year's produce has been the best in 31 years!
Looking forward to the next 5 years. Looking forward to the demise of DowAgro!
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I am on gravel and the nutrients drain through its like growing on a sieve. Manure comes free. 98% of it is fine there are only very small pockets of problems. Yes we will have to do without it but why should we have to?
We should not allow Dow to poison our world. It has been demonstrated just how damaging the stuff is. It should not be brought back.
What is going to happen to all the contaminated manure. Muck is spread on top of the soil. I know we get the smell of it. So it will not breakdown in the soil.
It is not just our allotments and gardens that are being poisoned it is our world.