Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: busy_lizzie on November 05, 2003, 16:38:16
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Hello, Isn't the weather mild? :D Went up to the Allotment this morning with my husband. He has just been given a elderberry bush from another Lottie holder and hopes to be making lots of elderberry wine next year ;D. While he was planting it, I decided to pick some brussel sprouts, and Ugh!! :o :o They were so covered in white fly.
We have mainly been making raised beds and trying to reclaim some more land from heavy grass,so I have neglected them a bit. The whole sprouts area is covered. :( Some of the sprouts don't seem too bad, but the leaves were covered with their eggs. I took the worst of the leaves off them but is there anything I can do organically? Also will they be killed off during the winter, when we eventually get a really cold spell? Thinking about next year too, as we are hoping to have our Potato patch on that spot. Thanks for any advice. busy_lizzie :D
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Hi busy
it must be the strange weather we've been having because we havent even planted any brassicas yet ( still clearing ground) but whilst digging etc I've been plagued by the little blighters.
I hope there's an organic cure.
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Most will be killed off overwinter but a few eggs will survive in favourable locations. Whether they will be a problem next year wiil depend largely upon what specie(s) you are infested with and which plants they are partial too.
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Is there anything natural you can spray them with. Like nicotine or something ???
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Done properly soap will take out the adults. The eggs are more or less impermable to anything except natural forces such as predators or natural senescence. The problem with predators is that whitefly are an introduced species (aka 'exotics') and natural predators in the UK are minimal. Encarsia formosa , the introduced ichimid wasp from South America is really only effective on greenhouse whitefly as it doesn't do well outside and greenhouse whitefly are it's preferred specie and will tend to seek these out.
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Thanks John for all that information. It was good of you to answer, and fascinating stuff, despite no real solution to the problem. Thanks also Ciderself for your input but it looks as though it is back to the drawing board for you and me. :'( busy_lizzie
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I'm a bit behind-hand - the plants aren't in yet - so where are the whitefly?
If you could locate them, a powerful jet of water might help, John?? - Tim
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The trouble I would envisage with using water is that as soon as you touch a plant forcefully adult whitefly tend to fly off. This alludes to using soap effectively- I have found that waiting until dusk to spray is a lot more effective than during the heat of the day as the adults are more lethargic at this time and you can hit more before they disperse.
At this time of year the cold will make them easier to hit, for the same reason, but during the height of summer they would probably move too fast. Don't despair, Busy Lizzie, soap does work. It needs to be applied fastidiously until the infestation has been reduced to an acceptable level. This means spraying until all the eggs have hatched and the resulting adults killed (an IPM approach really). The biggest problem I would foresee is that, because soap is a contact insecticide, is getting the spray to penetrate the top growth effectively. I have only done this on Gerberas, fuchsias (am I allowed to type that on these boards?) and similar plants with well spaced leaves.
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- sorry - of course I wait till they are comatose!! But had they been on plants, I would have gone on to say that regular disturbance, as I understand it, tends to disrupt their life pattern? - Tim
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Two power cuts (see your sprouts post Tim) have disrupted my life pattern! You are certainly correct Tim, but how often do you have to disturb them, especially during the summer when their physiology is so rapid, to cause a significant disruption in their cycles so that reproduction is curtailed or reduced? I imagine it would also be possible to damage the plants too with the required frequent forceful blasts of water.
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- yes, indeedy! - just floating ideas.
And, of course, jetting only mature plants. And I don't mean a fire hose!
My 'behindhandedness' was through referring to ciderself's query, rather than BL's original post. Tim
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Hi John and Tim
Just curious .....what are your opinions and /or experiences of companion planting?
I grow nicandra physaloides the Shoo Fly Plant...quote from Chiltern Seeds:-
Description:A vigorous plant with handsome, wavy-toothed leaves and attractive pale blue, bell-shaped flowers followed by ornamental papery Chinese lanterns. Branches of these can be dried and used for winter decoration indoors. It owes its common name to the fact that some gardeners believe it to be a deterrent to white-fly if grown along with plants afflicted by this pest. 3-4 ft.
Classification: Annual, Hardy, Half-Hardy
In fact , have collected loads of seed and was about to put it up for grabs on the swap shop!
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- not really into that sort of thing. Difficult enough to get one thing to grow, let alone a companion to mature and/or flower at the same time.! - Tim
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Hi Diane, Was interested in your posting as I am very interested in companion planting. Hoping to get Bob Flowerdews book for Christmas, on the subject. Hope next year to plant lots of companion plants alongside my veggies to see if they can deter some of the nasty insects. >:( Heard that Calendula attracts white fly away from veg and that they don't like Tagetes, so it should be an interesting experiment. Apart from anything else it will be nice to see some colour at the lottie having just grown rather plain vegetables this year. :D busy_lizzie
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The main problem I seem to have had with planting tagetes and calendula is that the slugs adore them!! they seem to munch through those then go on to my veg!! Had the same prob with blackfly, they covered my nasturtiums, then hoppped onto me beans!! Also had masses of tagetes in the greenhouse and my toms still got whitefly! I often wonder if they encourage the pests in?? DP
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Thanks for your input DP. Doesn't sound very encouraging does it? ;DThe last thing I would want to do is attract more creatures, by providing a veritable beanfeast for them. :P I had similar experiences in our back garden this year with nasturtiums. A lot of them got infested with horrible black insects and I had to pull them up. busy_lizzie :D
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Hiya, :)
I found this interesting this year.
I grew a whole load, and I mean a load of Broad Beans as I wanted some for winter dried beans. They were very close to my Globe Artichokes (slurp). Lo and behold, the Globes were infested with blackfly but the beans remained untouched ( first time I've known that).
Globes being big strong plants ( prolly of the Triffid Family) it was dead simple everytime the tanks were filled to spray them off with water. Ok, they came back but no damage.
Any ideas?
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Boil 6 lbs of rhubarb leaves for half an hour, strain the licour and mix with a little Lux Flakes (pure soap) and blast the blighters with it (when cool) . Dilute it a little if you wish.
Same process using Mares Tails will give powdery mildew the boot.
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I have never been convinced about companion planting as being really effective. What I am convinced about is using certain plants as targets when interplanted among vegetables in particular. As Busy Lizzie has observed, Nasturtiums are favourites of black aphids. If nasturtiums are planted among broad beans the aphids will infest the nasturtiums first, being the preferred food source. If the nasturtiums are kept regularly sprayed so that population density doesn't get too high the aphids will remain on the nasturtiums. This is Integrated Pest Management (the IPM that I referred to earlier) where, by using these target plants, spraying can be on a few plants rather than the whole planting of beans.
For this to work is a matter of knowing your enemy. For common greenhouse whitefly tomatoes are the preferred food source when compared to Tagetes. Perhaps using fuchsias, and keeping them sprayed, might be more effective.You have to remember that there is no such thing as 'an aphid' or 'a whitefly' but many species each with their own preferred food source (generally the common specific name refers to this. Not always though- one winter, about a decade ago, the California lettuce crop was devestated by an infestation of sweet potato whitefly). The rosy apple aphid overwinters on barley. If you have a field of barley next to your apple trees the potential population infestation can be enormous. What wiil happen is that as the barley matures it becomes less attractive to the aphid so it will start looking for its other host which will have more succulent growth that it can sink it's piercing mouth parts into. This will also be true for the whitefly on your Brussels sprouts and the bean aphid. The attractiveness of young beans may provide as much temptation to the aphids as nasturtiums but mature beans, planted next to young nasturtiums, will be less palatable.
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The yellow / orange flowers are ment to attract the hoverflies etc the goodies which are ment to eat the white / blackflys. Well this is what I read somewhere but if all else fails go for boiled rhubarb leaf use the liquid diluted in a spray got rid of redspider off my Angles Trumpets. Some of our lottie holders water with Provado which can run expensive?
Teresa
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I thought I had read somewhere that it was the smell of tagetes that discouraged pests? If what you have read is correct instead, my thought is that hoverflies et al are adapted to the cooler climates of the UK outside a greenhouse and, with all the food sources out there, would be unlikely to go into foreign territory, such as inside a greenhouse.
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Hi John
good point, I too heard the smell of the marigolds keep them away did not have much luck with them in the greenhouse but have you heard of planting basil with the toms in the greenhouse ment to work might giveit a go this year.
Teresa
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Hi, This has all been fascinating stuff. I recently started an"Allotment Book", where I have plans and notes and articles etc., and some of these suggestion are definitely going to be included in its pages. Thanks! :D busy_lizzie
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- yes, indeedy! - just floating ideas.
And, of course, jetting only mature plants. And I don't mean a fire hose!
My 'behindhandedness' was through referring to ciderself's query, rather than BL's original post. Tim
Hi everyone
- bit of a fight to get to the computer. I'm afraid. Then realise I hadnt signed out when 'pushed' out of the hot seat.
In reply to Tim's query. about a couple of weeks ago whilst digging on the lottie - (no cultivated plants in there yet, just the usual couch grass etc.) all that morning we were surrounded by whitefly. Dont know whether we were disturbing them - could they have been on top of the soil? No one on neighbouring allotments had started putting in brassicas then.
I certainly agree with Busy - will be taking a lot of info away from your input guys. Thanks.
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Hi, My sister e-mailed me today with this Remedy for White Fly, which Her Herbal Medicine Teacher recommended. It is Garlic Water. :) Sorry don't have quantities ??? but you crush some garlic in a bottle of water and shake it every hour or so, and the next day spray it on the white fly. :D Anything is worth a try, - another one for my book! busy_lizzie
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- a couple of thoughts - no argument:
1. I still find it impossible to get the companion ready at the right time - and continue throughout the seasonand then you have to weed it?
2. Yellow - as in sticky traps - atttracts insects? Sadly, hoverflies too.
3. And John - most years our cold 'house is full of hoverflies, some ladybugs and some lacewings. This year? Zilch!! -And we DON'T spray. - Tim
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Excellent info on IPM ......thanks John!
So, as I read it, the Shoo fly plant would be useless as a companion plant!! ( i.e. shoo on to the tasty veggies next door!! ;D )
Very pretty flowers and have to say, grown it for years and not a beastie in sight!! Will check it's neighbours with interest next year!
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Tim:- I made the presumption that greenhouse referred to something that you closed every night and kept at 15C. That is my habituation. As I understand it the UK had a warm summer this year (or was it just dry?)- perhaps this may be the cause of the absence of hoverflies for you?
Ciderself:- The whitefly you find on cultivated brassicas will also go onto various cruciferous weeds ("mustards") such as Shepherds needle and Shepherds purse. These may be the source of the whiteflies that were bothering you.
MagpieDi:- If the Shoo fly plant works for you then I am certainly not going to contradict you. Everyone's circumstances are different, what works for some, in certain circumstances even, may not be repeated again under changed conditions. part of what I love about growing is the constant challenges that it presents.
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eugh, all over my daturas too - I have a homemade concoction of lavender, garlic and teatree oil which I crush and soak in boiling water and fairy green - I beleive in keeping all possible options open. I don;t really have constant amounts of ingredients as active ingredients vary so much from plant to plant but it is fairly pokey. I let it cool and put in an atomiser. In truth, I am never very sure which 'ingredients' are efficacious and have even considered that the blasting from the spray does the trick. Aphids, whitefly and spidermite all seem to detest it tho'. On the subject of Nicandra (so-called shoofly), I never found it shooed a single fly of any species and selfseeds like crazy. I had one little plant in my garden over 4 years ago and I am still picking out seedlings which seem to have got everywhere.
My kids are also not convinced and mutter about the 'witches garden' - aconites, hellebores, foxgloves and loads of daturas!
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After having yearly infestations of whitefly on the greenhouse tomatoes, I tried Thompson and Morgans 'special marigold' which claimed to repel them. I put one plant in with each tomato, crushed a few of the leaves when watering to release the strong sent and didn't see one whitefly all summer.
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Another couple of thoughts?
1. John - 'cold-house' - yes, door shut at night but the vents often stay open all through, and many days too, but 15deg ? - you have to be joking! ! It's been below zero several tmes in the last month.
2. Companions - as John says, each to their own. And, as I have said, I'm too thick to get them to flower as soon as the toms are in, and go on flowering throughout their life. And - one other thing - in over 40 years, we have had aphid and red spider, but never white fly. - Tim