Allotments 4 All
General => The Shed => Topic started by: cocopops on April 20, 2009, 18:24:55
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One of my cats bought it in yesterday and we thought it was dead. Put it in a plastic container with lid and got the neighbours to confirm it was a viper/adder. It obviously isn't dead as it keeps moving.
I would like to keep it (dead) as reference against grass snakes and slow worms. I really don't fancy leaving it to suffocate but putting it in the wood burner seems wrong. Apart from flushing it down the septic tank or drowning it in either water or beer (like slugs) I am stuck. It is about a foot long.
My children always wear wellies outside and know that the cat must have found a nest. Grass is short.
Any ideas (no rescue centres, here)
TY Coco
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You had better find someone who can help you really quick, you can't keep it and you must not harm it as adders are a protected species and you could face a very hefty fine.
Contact your nearest wildlife trust
http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/
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just found this
MOST IMPORTANTLY - DO NOT TRY TO HANDLE ADDERS OR PROVOKE THEM IN ANY WAY.
Adders are protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981.
It is an offence to kill, harm or injure them
sell or trade them in any way
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sorry I forgot to mention that I live in Brittany, France. It is nornal to use an axe but I would not like to give it an opportunity to escape. This is the first one in three years and they are not common.
There is no protection here for them ,it is just my wsh to keep it intact to identify other by.
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Is this a wind-up?
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Why can't you photograph it instead of assuming you have the right to end it's life?
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Let the poor thing go ::)
ETA: It's not a Black Mamba for goodness sakes. And if you 'want other to identify it by' look in a book.
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I have just come in from a lovely day at the allotment enjoying the company of the wildlife we have up there and I don't really want to come home to read posts like this.
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Let it go, it is extremely inhumane of you to treat it in this way and I am personally disgusted that you are thinking of killing it
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you should let it go. If you are worried that it poses a risk take it as far away as possible.
I think its good to teach children that every animal has a purpose and a right to live.
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From wikipedia:
Systemic symptoms resulting from anaphylaxis can be dramatic. These may appear within 5 minutes post bite, or can be delayed for many hours. Such symptoms include nausea, retching and vomiting, abdominal colic and diarrhoea, incontinence of urine and faeces, sweating, fever, vasoconstriction, tachycardia, lightheadedness, loss of consciousness, shock, angioedema of the face, lips, gums, tongue, throat and epiglotis, urticaria and bronchospam. If left untreated, these symptoms may persist or fluctuate for up to 48 hours.[4] In severe cases, cardiovascular failure may occur.[2]
They are a threat, I have 2 children, 3 cats and 2 dogs, plus hens. I did not ask for this snake, there is a nest somwhere close. I need to identify a potentially lethal snake or a harmless look-a-like. I rescued all my pets but come on ::)
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You would be better to teach your children that some things in life are dangerous and shouldn't be touched or played with.
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I did not ask for this snake
No, and it didn't ask for your 2 children, 3 cats, 2 dogs and hens either!
Leave the bloody thing alone and do something positive like educating your kids to recognise and appreciate the wildlife around them. Cats, dogs and hens can look after themselves. It's commonly known as 'NATURE'.
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My children were brought up on the coast of the Red Sea. We had cone shells (lethal), chicken fish (lethal), Portuguese men-of-war (nasty, sometimes lethal) and sharks. They learnt from the start what they could and couldn't touch, and still managed to enjoy the beach. And live to their 40s.
A healthy respect is needed for all wildlife - it's not the snake's fault it's in your way. :) :) :)
BTW - I draw the line at rats ::) ::) ::) ::)
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I did not ask for this snake
No, and it didn't ask for your 2 children, 3 cats, 2 dogs and hens either!
Leave the bloody thing alone and do something positive like educating your kids to recognise and appreciate the wildlife around them. Cats, dogs and hens can look after themselves. It's commonly known as 'NATURE'.
Yes I did ask for the forementioned children and animals. If you want it you can have it. Look at my previous posts to see what I have rescued. I am stuck with this snake but I am not releasing it as it is a threat. I thought this site would be more forthcoming about 'nature'.
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I have just come in from a lovely day at the allotment enjoying the company of the wildlife we have up there and I don't really want to come home to read posts like this.
bless ya!
i know what you mean,ive left OH up there desperately trying to save the newts and taddies (leaky pond just discovered) he has been in a right state all day worrying about their welfare,so yes,not pleasant reading for me either
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You would be better to teach your children that some things in life are dangerous and shouldn't be touched or played with.
Ollie you have posted many threads about your new hens for your children. If you had a viper/adder in your garden would you worry?? Mine are really into nature, daughter(8) helps milk the cows next door every evening. A viper bought in by the cat is not my choice.
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Have a word with the cat then! It's his/her responsibility.
And BTW: Cow's aren't 'nature' - they're domestic animals!
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As everyone else has said--- let the poor thing go.
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My mother was hospitalised as a child when she was bitten by one... one that she had picked up and was playing with. We were told the story as children, as a warning about messing with wild animals. IIRC, she was actually in hospital for about a month & was pretty lucky to survive.
I've seen them in the wild a few times - notably one occasion in the Ardeche area when we were paddling in a river & saw things swimming away from us. We looked a bit closer & it was absolutely heaving with adders! We walked slowly to the bank, and didn't paddle in that bit again! Any other time I've seen them, they've been running away!
I would worry if I had one in the garden, and I understand why you are, but I would take it a few miles away and let it go.
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I have been bitten by an adder - nowt more than a bad wasp sting. I am afraid that as far as I am concerned, it has as much, if not more right to be where you than you do. Your attitude to living wildlife sickens me!!! :-X I am with everybody else on this thread - killing it would be unforgiveable.
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What ever you think, look up your opinions (wiki etc.) and realise that I have to get rid of this snake. Look on my profile at what I have rescued (£400 for then hen electric fence), then tell me that to kill one potentially dangerous snake is wrong.
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I would like to keep it (dead) as reference against grass snakes and slow worms
Morals aside, it will be no use as reference once it is dead. It will lose its distinctive colouring and shrink to a dried out stick :(
How about taking some photos of it, and show to your kids from the safety of the plastic container. Then let it go, somewhere safe - it may not be injured, just resting before it sheds its skin. Explain to your kids what type of natural habitat they like to live in, and they may be fascinated enough to look out for snakes next time they are out. Observant kids are safer than scared or ignorant kids!
I was so excited to find this adder when I was out walking last year, the first one I've ever seen!
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IT'S WRONG. END OF.
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Actually I did have a look at your previous posts when I read this one about the snake and I thought surely this can't be the same person whe has rescued Battery hens and whe seems to care so much about animals. We have visited devon and cornwall many times and have never had the priviledge of seeing an adder. If we were to be so fortunate we would just leave it to get on with its life(after admiring it of course)
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Hi cocopops ,you may have just panicked a bit because of your childrens safety.Why don't you just take it away from your home and release it.? :)
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Go take a walk woman, preferably in the FRENCH COUNTRYSIDE and release the adder. You disgust me wishing to take the life of a wild animal, even if it is a snake. They have a right to live as well as yourself.
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I m going to take the easiest option and let the farmer next door do what he wants to, the nest is probably on his land.
In the Uk people moan about immegrants not integrating and not behaving like the locals. I will let them take the route of letting them do what is best for their farm and to hell with the opinions on here. I do not want to be responsible for viper deaths with their cattle (it will grow up!). The whole are is agricultural so if not their's someone else's.
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My husband has just said thet he will release the snake in woodland on his way to work.
I still have a nest near my house, hope that they don't come to close.
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In the Uk people moan about immegrants not integrating and not behaving like the locals. I will let them take the route of letting them do what is best for their farm and to hell with the opinions on here. I do not want to be responsible for viper deaths with their cattle (it will grow up!). The whole are is agricultural so if not their's someone else's.
I don't
My husband has just said thet he will release the snake in woodland on his way to work.
I still have a nest near my house, hope that they don't come to close.
Well done him!
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Well we'll all sleep better for knowing that, Cocopops.
I dare say the cattle will cope as they have done for generations.
To you husband- well done that man.
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Excellent :) :) :) Well done Cocopops and OH :) :) :)
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I m going to take the easiest option and let the farmer next door do what he wants to, the nest is probably on his land.
In the Uk people moan about immegrants not integrating and not behaving like the locals. I will let them take the route of letting them do what is best for their farm and to hell with the opinions on here. I do not want to be responsible for viper deaths with their cattle (it will grow up!). The whole are is agricultural so if not their's someone else's.
Looks like the farmer next door is going to take an axe to the snake!
Immigrants not integrating? That's a WHOLE new political viper's nest.
Have you let it out of it's plastic container yet?
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wow what a thread :o. growing up in the tropics surrounded by many poisenous animals snake included you learnt at a very early age not to lift stone or logs willy nilly cause you never know what might be lurking, snake, scorpion, poisenous spiders, etc educate your kids regardless of your decision they'll be safer all the more for it.
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thanks thifas...you've saved me posting exactly that 8)
I was also going to add that your cat must be mighty pleased with itself and be warned! It'll be back finding another present for you :o
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Coco I can understand why it frightened you t think that there is an adder nest nearby but why would you want to keep it's dead body? That just seems wrong - you are obviously an animal lover and I think you have just panicked a bit - which is understandable - I am really pleased your OH is going to take it away and release it and that you were able to discuss the prolem on here, after all that is what this forum is all about isn't it? Aksing for advice and opinions? Agree with others, use it to educate the kids, take photos etc and tell them about the possible dangers.
Lushy x
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Cocopops - grass-snakes and slow-worms don't look at all like adders, there is next to zero chance of confusion once you've looked at pictures. Note that OllieC's mother was *playing* with the snake when she was bitten. Getting rid of that one individual adder doesn't rid the whole of France of snakes - your kids would be better off knowing what they look like, and knowing not to touch or tease them - or any other snake.
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In our country we have quite a few poisonous plants and fungi that could cause harm to us and animals. It's knowing about these things that keeps us safe. I'm so pleased that the snake is free again.
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I don't like snakes I'm terrified of them venomous or not but they have just as much right to life as you do.
I'm pleased your husband is doing the right thing.
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JUSTICE FOR THE COCOPOPS ONE!
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Just noticed this thread!
WOW!
I think it is worth mentioning that adders and most snakes/lizards are never seen by humans as they keep out of our way! They certainly don't come looking for us and just a footfall can be enough indication for an adder to disappear.
Unfortunately you have caught one early on in the year when they are slow and sluggish having just come out of hibernation. They generally are very rarely seen in my area - although there are loads of them in the heathland.
So hopefully you now recognise what an adder looks like and don't jump upon some unsuspecting and very helpful slow worm next time cocopops!
Old Bird
:o
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No one has died in Britain from an adder bite in the last twenty years. Are French ones more dangerous?
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PS 'In England and Wales only one death from adder bite was recorded in 1950-72, but there were 61 deaths from bee or wasp stings. '
Better reach for the insecticide!
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There was a young boy bitten by an adder in Woodhall Spa, Lincolnshire over the weekend apparently one of his cousins picked it up and it went for them. Woodhall is well known for having an adder population but i Wonder how many children are taught not to touch?
I have been to South Africa twice and never saw one, yet Woodhall spa is about 10 miles from my home.
Its a strange world
Back to work!!
Paddy
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I had nightmares about snakes biting my children last night... all because of this thread!
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In that case, you may not want to read my thread on the shoal of piranha fish I found in the pond today that stripped a whole cow to the bare bones OllieC ;D
It wasn't MY cow. Just a stray one wandering through. Must have slipped on the wet path and PLUNGED TO ITS DOOM!
Hope the snake in the original post is now slithering free :)
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I hate snakes, I disagree with everyone on here. I think I would have killed it. When I was attacked by digging up a wasps nest we set it alight with petrol and burned it. They all chased by round the allotment and I was still holding my spade. I was too frightened to go that end of the allotment. Unless you are a veggie and don't kill rats or flies, I do not see why anyone should be concerned about a snake. When I was little, went to a ladies house in Dorset, I think, and she cut the grass snakes in half with shears. All the people that rescue chickens, I hope they don't let them have a happy life and then eat them. I expect everyone here will shoot me down in flames, but if I had children and snakes the snakes would 'be dead meat' and the children protected. My son brought home a kitten, which we called 'Baby' and had for 14 years because the farmer was going to drown the kittens and we all took one home. I feel more sorry for the animals in the slaughter house and the battery chickens which most people eat and enjoy. Double standards it seems to me. What about fish, I caught one when my son was fishing but was too frightened to take it off the hook and a man helped me, put me off fish for life. That is so cruel a big hook in it. When it is served on the table with head and eyes, it eyes are looking at me and saying 'why me'. OK it was a baby snake, let if go, but not near me.
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I happened upon a fully grown adder in my polytunnel a few years back-I went out of one door and it went out the other.
We never did get properly introduced ;D
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i wouldn't have gone back :o
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I hate snakes ...I do not see why anyone should be concerned about a snake. When I was little, went to a ladies house in Dorset, I think, and she cut the grass snakes in half with shears.
Lots of people 'hate snakes' Borlotti. They've had pretty bad press over the years - a symbol of 'evil' and all that fictional nonsense.
But as far as 'being concerned' goes: The adder is a protected species and it's got just as much right to be here as any other animal.
Think about other protected species: tigers, polar bears, bees, ospreys. If they were breeding/nesting near your house would you go gung-ho and kill them just because you lived next to them and they shared your habitat?
Tigers: Can kill you yes. But keep out of their way and they'll keep out of your way.
Polar Bears: Live on ice-caps. So don't make your home on an ice cap.
Bees: Can also kill people but they won't sting unless provoked. They are now endangered as a species. We need bees to help pollenate everything on our allotments.
Ospreys: A beautiful bird. But it can swoop down on your pet rabbits and chickens and carry them off to eat. Are you going to shoot it?
The list is endless .....
As far as my philosophy goes, I say that each and every animal/bird/plant etc. has just as much right to be on this planet as us. They shouldn't have to adapt to what WE want, we should understand, adapt and attune to THEM.
Not understanding, adapting and attuning is one of the major causes of the demise of so many species on this earth and will probably be the end of it.
A case in point is the Dodo. You know ... the 'extinct' bird! Man thought it was great that a bird was so stupid that it stood still to be shot. So they shot them all. The penultimate Dodo was shot so it could be displayed in a museum as an extinct bird. The LAST dodo died in a zoo.
I went to a wood a couple of weeks ago - my dad 'caretakes' it and looks after the wildlife there. My little lad Alfie went as well, to look at the grass snakes that were living in there. After 3 hours we only caught sight of THREE grass snakes tails! Disappearing into the undergrowth. They certainly didn't want to see us and they CERTAINLY didn't want to jump up and coil themselves round our necks and bite our earholes!
So, the lady in Dorset that cut the grass snakes in half? Shame on her
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Therefore if any animal has a right to live, am I wrong for putting frontline on my cat, as I hate fleas. Had Council in to spray the house with insectide, good. Do we have to live with headlice as they have a right to live on hair. Do I have to have ants in my kitchen and not put ant powder down, or use slug pullets to protect my plants from being eaten. Also use fly spray as I hate flies. I can just about live with the pigeons but they are becoming a pest. Lucily I have no grass snakes in my garden but unless it was against the law would certainly get pest control in. We kill rats so why not snakes.
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Protected species.
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back to vipers...but what "we" are allowed by law to do in Britain isn't what other laws in other countries take as their benchmark, where different conditions apply - and Coco is in rural France. ::)
I wonder if the Extreme Gardening you did disturbed a nest, btw? I'm sure, whatever, your farmer neighbour will teach you the country lore round there for you to keep you and yours safe, and you'll take his advice. I reckon a couple of sentences of his are worth tons more than 3 pages of comments on a board in the UK designed for hobby gardeners :-\
.. back to this 'protected' business, tho...here, bats are Protected....in North Carolina if you have a bat(s) in your house your first call is to 911 - our 999 - and this triggers an immediate result. And why? Cos it's estimated that 1 in 100 bats there are rabid, is why..death to the bats and blood tests for the family cos apparently the puncture marks are so small they can easily be missed..
All the best Cocopos,
Lishka
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Just wondering if we've a bit of confusion here between the Common (European) Adder and the Death Adder, which is pretty lethal but only lives in Australasia.
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Personally I wouldn't ever kill anything at all unless I was going to eat it (which other animals do to each other - it is natural for some species' survival), it was constituting a serious problem or it was very ill and after exploring all other options I considered it best to put it out of it's misery.
Fleas on a cat are of very little threat to a human but do cause the cat a great deal of discomfort and, as a human, I would decide that killing a few fleas would be the better option as opposed to letting the cat suffer needlessly. Headlice are the same. And the common thread with these, and ants and pigeons, is that they are largely a problem because of human intervention in the first place - fleas just love the warm environment in a house, headlice like clean hair and large gatherings of people to spread around and ants are just using the environment we've created to re-make their nests that we built upon.
Now I hate wasps but I just avoid them - I don't think wasps will seek me out to sting with intent! Just because you don't like snakes doesn't mean you should wish them all dead. An adder is a pretty rare reptile (as most are unfortunately) and you are very unlikely to ever see one let alone ever be bitten by one. Grass snakes are totally harmless unless you happen to be a slug. What is the problem here? Why would anyone want to kill a small snake only because you don't happen to like it?
Luckily I think most people on this board would decide to use the intellect that we have as a 'higher' species to make an informed decision about the welfare of an animal and decide that killing it wouldn't be an option. I can't comprehend for a second why the person who started this thread didn't just drive a mile up the road and pop the snake in a hedge somewhere quiet well away from her and her children ?Seems like an attempt to stir up some controversy to me...
And Hyacinth - how would you intend to get bitten by a bat? In the 1990's there were only 5 reported cases of rabies in the whole of the USA.
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Recently my son , now bordering 50, told me how he and his mates came across a viper/adder
when they were young - school age, he said they were in awe of its markings and size,
What happened next ? I asked -- we scarpered he replied !
He new what it was and to leave it alone .
floss xxx
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I have just typed a huge response, with pic of the released snake. Did not copy it and was too big (+300K).
I do not want to go through it again so big thanks for the PM's and those that have stuck up for me.
Just a few points, 15 died last year in France from snake bits, 55 from wasps. If I wanted to be an attention seeker, trust me this is the last way I would do it.
I loved this site, yes my life is different, but I love gardening and poultry keeping. The advice I have receved up 'til now has been fantastic.
Thanks again to those that empithise, I will PM back.
Bye, Alison Hayes aka Cocopos
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Please don't take most of the criticism personally - there's nothing wrong with thinking something or someone's wrong. Well, not in my world anyway.
Apart from a couple of responses from people who have been genuinely upset by what you were suggesting, most of the replies have simply been saying that you shouldn't kill it.
You've taken this advice on board, and I for one am pleased to know someone who is prepared to question their viewpoint & to do something differently out of consideration for others. So good on you!
Thanks!
Ollie
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Thanks for that Ollie,
When I was driving for ten miles,with a viper in container, I did sort of wonder why I was doing something on the sayso of a website that I love.
It has gone, end of story for me.
My tom cat is not very popular at the moment though.
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(Personally I would not kill anything unless I was going to eat it.) So you would killl a snake if it tasted OK. What a load of old tripe, it is OK to kill a lamb and eat it, or a chicken, but a poor baby snake, has to be saved and put in a field. What is the difference between protected species, OK to kill pigeons, rats but not snakes. Kill enough pigeons and rats and they will be protected species. I do not understand the logic. If I had a snake in my garden it would be dead, and I would kill it, and I also stamp on flying ants. The reason dinosaurs died out was because they couldn't survive, that is natural survival of the fittest.
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cocopops, one of your last posts made it sound like you were going to leave the forum but please don't do that, everything is based on opinion and what some people said in this thread was very harsh but on the whole this is a great forum and you could never wish to meet a better a better group of people!
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And Hyacinth - how would you intend to get bitten by a bat? In the 1990's there were only 5 reported cases of rabies in the whole of the USA.
I don't think I would "intend" to get bitten - by anything, W&C ;D. I think that, although, thank goodness, the reported cases of rabies might be few in the US, this is not because rabies doesn't exist, but rather that the immunisation regime for animals (which includes domestic cats) is robust + public awareness of the dangers through the pamphlets and fact sheets (including ones written especially for children) which are delivered to households in the N.C. County my family live in, is raised, together with sensible advice on how to live with the wildlife you share your space with.
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(Personally I would not kill anything unless I was going to eat it.) So you would killl a snake if it tasted OK. What a load of old tripe,
actually my husband and sister says snake taste quite nice :)
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Vipera Berus/Common Adders ARE protected in France under the Berne Convention Appendix 111 since 1982 ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Conservation_of_European_Wildlife_and_Natural_Habitats
All 39 members have now signed this and the Council of Europe is actually in France!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe
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Just wondering if we've a bit of confusion here between the Common (European) Adder and the Death Adder, which is pretty lethal but only lives in Australasia.
Just a little correction, I think you mean Australia......Australasia= Australia and New Zealand and there are no snakes in NZ.
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And Hyacinth - how would you intend to get bitten by a bat? In the 1990's there were only 5 reported cases of rabies in the whole of the USA.
A guy from Scotland had rabies a few years ago.He worked in bat conservation and was bitten by one.
I follow these things as I love bats.We stayed in a cottage once in Hay On Wye,the loft was full of bats.We did not know this when we booked it.We were warned by the door knocker being made in the shape of a batLOL :)
As dusk fell out they would come and we used to watch them for hours.Great stuff. :)
I don't think I would "intend" to get bitten - by anything, W&C ;D. I think that, although, thank goodness, the reported cases of rabies might be few in the US, this is not because rabies doesn't exist, but rather that the immunisation regime for animals (which includes domestic cats) is robust + public awareness of the dangers through the pamphlets and fact sheets (including ones written especially for children) which are delivered to households in the N.C. County my family live in, is raised, together with sensible advice on how to live with the wildlife you share your space with.
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Cocopops, don't leave the thread...you did come on and ask which was the right thing to do and you did take it away and let it go.
Everyone has there moment at some time or another when opinion swings against them and people jump on the band wagon...much to their surprise usually.
Faced with a baby snake i would have gone into panic mode, so I don't know how I would react.
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eeek,messed that up but you get the message LOL
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Hope you stick around Cocopos, sometimes things do get a bit overheated around here.
Besides I love your Avatar ;D ;D ;D
1066
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Just wondering if we've a bit of confusion here between the Common (European) Adder and the Death Adder, which is pretty lethal but only lives in Australasia.
Just a little correction, I think you mean Australia......Australasia= Australia and New Zealand and there are no snakes in NZ.
Absolutely right - lazy of me. I meant Oz and SE Asia - not the pacific islands. :-[
PS Kea, do you have a thing about destroying vinyl car roofs? :)
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(Personally I would not kill anything unless I was going to eat it.) So you would killl a snake if it tasted OK. What a load of old tripe,
actually my husband and sister says snake taste quite nice :)
I bet it tastes like the 2 for a fiver chicken ;D lovely.
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Well I would never kill a snake-but for all those who wiped out the frog and toad population in this vilage I have one message
Piss off and don`t come back
6 years now ? and still no frogs-well one or two where there were hundreds
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After everything that has gone on since I posted this thread I would like the opportunity to explain / justify my actions.
I was born in Stoke, married someone who has Irish parents but born and bred in Luton. I used to be vegetarian and one serious boyfriend was a 'hunt saboteur'.
We decided to move over for various reasons, particularly a better life for my children. In my opinion it has worked.
After three years my perception of life and animals has changed. Things that I once thought was barbaric is now normal because I am exposed to it day in day out. Not to be rude but that is how it is here.
If I had just wanted to kill the snake then I would have done it one way or the other. I asked for a humane way (go on shoot me down). IMO I misjudged who I was talking to and I have ended up be having more stick that I have ever received in my life.
Please be aware that I asked a question, took on board the criticism and released it.
Why now am I still getting this grief ???
PS big thanks for all of those that have been supporting me, I will not leave this board as it is a fantastic place and it has helped me so much.
Allie
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Hi Allie, you're right -- its different strokes for different folks.
Though we are separated by very few miles, our culture is very different -- especially in
rural areas where wild life is viewed in a different way. Perhaps many years ago we weren't
so different, we probably felt the same way about ' snakes ' as you do, who is to say that
we wouldn't have felt how you feel now. It's all cultural, no one means any harm and we
hope you don't leave us.
floss xxx
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I agree, don't leave, you are entitled to ask any question you wish and what is 'normal' in one place is 'abnormal' in another, neither can presume ot be correct. I agree with previous posts, where do you draw the line with what's ok to kill? snakes, slugs, pigeons, rabbits, fleas...? If everyone had the same view it would be boring. I hope you stay. x
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I want to watch your new garden develop, Coco and hear about your new French life, please. You know the thing I really loved in rural France are the ironmongers shops I used to browse. Do they still have them - the sort of shops which sold everything from baling twine, to nails and big hooks to cooking pots, etc. Fascinating.
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and of course "four candles/fork handles" it's a language thing.... ;D
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and foods and home-made medicines in dark brown bottles labelled "for cough"...
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:) I'm pleased you are staying with us cocopops, I personally cannot kill anything, I'm a veggie ,my brother was a butcher and goes bushbeating, shooting etc, we both came out of the same womb but see things in different ways ;D / shades x
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Cleo - who did what, to the frogs and toads?! :o
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Hi Allie
I really hope you do stay around and I agree with floss and others that life is all about different strokes for different folks. Everyone has a right to their opinion and you were asking for advice on this situation. Obviously people have very different views but i think the way that some people have spoken is not apropriate or necessary. It is possible to put your view strongly without using aggressive language or being rude!
Lushy x
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as far as I am concerned,your reactions as a mother concerned about her childrens safety, are totally understandable
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Oooh - this thread has entered the suck up zone. ;D
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my teacher used to say that also