Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: greenbelt on March 16, 2009, 21:46:32
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hello everyone
I hope you don't mind me seeking your words of wisdom. I own a 60 acre farm in green belt land which is surrounded by residential housing , as the big city nearby is growing ever closer!
Over the years the farm ( one of the few left in the area) has been forced to diversify & we now keep horses & grow grass to make hay , rather than traditional farm animals as in the past. Sadly, many local residents do treat our well kept farm as a "dog's toilet" despite the no dog fouling signs & our attempts to politely advise people that we have to handle the grass & feed it to horses once their pooch has pooped in it!
In addition we have also had several bordering residents attempt adverse possession & move their garden fence to create a garden extension from our field, which is naughty. As well as usual youth crime.
In an effort to keep the farm in the family & profitable I have been thinking about some sort of garden extension / allotment activity which would also provide some of the more pleasant residents much needed ground - we could also supply the manure!
Its just a crazy idea at the moment & I realise alot of work would be needed to get the council onside. However, from reading the forums the rents are considerably lower than , grazing rental for example & whilst I like the idea of being able to provide the land for others use , it would need to create aprofit to help sustain the upkeep of the wider farm. Your views please, especially around rents for private ground such as I am suggesting.
Thanks for reading all this !
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Welcome Greenbelt this is what one of our local farmers did.
http://www.tweddlefarm.co.uk/
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Hi Greenbelt....
I think it would all depend on how much you were thinking of charging for the land, what facilities you could provide (running water, vehicle access etc) what the demand for allotments is in your area, and whether the locals would/could pay for it....
Where abouts are you?
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When we had a city wide forum a few years ago the average rent for 300sq yards was £48.... can you make a profit at that? Allowing for paths etc you would get a minimum of £500 per acre (10 plots at £50). Cant see there being any problem with takers and an easy/profitable disposal method for the muck. Setting up and Water would be an issue, but could "give" it as self managing and presumably with a good accountant there would be "charitable status" for a private allotment scheme...
:-\
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don't forget you will need toilets. You would have to cost in septic tank or connection to main drainage. How do you manage those neighbours who try to extend their gardens? When the orchard across the road from me was sold to developers there was blood, snot and gore from the homeowners who had extended their gardens over the years onto the orchard.
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You don't have to connect to the mains sewers or spend a lot of money to provide a toilet. You can build a basic composting toilet for very little cost or have a chemical one like an Elsan.
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don't forget you will need toilets. You would have to cost in septic tank or connection to main drainage. How do you manage those neighbours who try to extend their gardens? When the orchard across the road from me was sold to developers there was blood, snot and gore from the homeowners who had extended their gardens over the years onto the orchard.
I don't think toilets will be needed. We haven't got them on out site. Toilets would be an advantage and would presumably push up the rent.
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As treasurer "boundary adjustments" are a nightmare... the next householder who builds/rebuilds their boundary wall 4" into our allotments is going to get a stroppy letter telling them to take it down before I take a sledgehammer to it...
>:(
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Not toilets on my lottie either (if you exclude the 3 car tyres on top of each other with nettles growing all around.) :-X
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No toilets on our site neither. Urinate on the plot... its good for the land. As for the other; they have 3 options:
1) dump before going to the plot
2) hold the turtles head until returning home
3) if needs must then there is always the doggy pooper scooper bags
;D ;D ;D
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No toilets on our site neither. Urinate on the plot... its good for the land. As for the other; they have 3 options:
1) dump before going to the plot
2) hold the turtles head until returning home
3) if needs must then there is always the doggy pooper scooper bags
;D ;D ;D
hahahaha my thought exactly,however,as a sec who has been asked for a toilet,its now being provided for the ladies (im a lady myself who will prob never use said loo) oops im hijacking this thread sorry!
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Or option 4... the John Wayne walk .... :-[
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Another good reason to have a shed........privacy! ;D
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Another good reason to have a shed........privacy! ;D
As the only female allotment holder on our site thats why i've had to get a shed. I just don't fancy peeing behind a compost bin lol. :)
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The farm is on the outskirts of Manchester, I believe there is big demand & ability to pay from local folks. Im keen to understand what people are prepared to pay I can then assess whether its worth pursuing the idea & looking into what type of services we would provide. I have seen prices range from £50 - £100 but wondered what you all thought.
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Lottie Lou , re your point about neighbours encroaching - you really do have to take a firm stance from the outset.
Most people start by stealth & begin placing items such as old plant pots over their boundary or planting the odd plant or small bush. However, these must be removed right away & the trespassers must be warned not to place anything whatsoever onto your property or it will be removed - most poeple then start to get grumpy & the usual " what harm is it doing, its only a few plants/pots & you have all that land " conversation starts. I simply answer by asking them to respect my farm property just as I respect their garden & as I would never dream of placing my belongings into their garden & I expect that they treat me likewise. Take my advice - if you let things like the odd plant / plant pot/ cuttings etc go by as you don't want the embarrassment or hassle of asking them to stop placing them on your property , it will only get worse! At some point in the future , they all then start to move their boundary & then attempt to demand adverse possession & it becomes very stressful & unpleasant . Better to sort it out immediately anything like that starts as once you have made your position clear , most don't attempt ot again - sadly the more flexible & accomodating you become - the more they persist! I never cease to be amazed how cheeky some poeple are & age is no barrier to this type of behaviour.
hope that helps
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Hi Greenbelt!
What you are saying about people taking advantage of farmers reminds me of one of my friends who used to live in Sussex - a family opened one of his gates drove their car in - plonked down the picnic - dogs and kids everywhere! They also left rubbish!
Next weekend my friend and his family and a few friends turned up to suburbia where these people lived (in the old days the police would give you the addresses of car owners!) pulled up outside emptied family friends picnic and dog out put picnic on their front garden and started to enjoy their meal!!
You can imagine what was said - but hopefully it hit home when owner was told that that was exactly what they had done except it was not his front garden but a gated field!!
I think that what you are envisaging is a brilliant idea. I would expect you could - if there is large demand in your area - up to £100 per year per plot. It would certainly be more of an encouragement to get people who were properly keen and would respect your land more. When - lets face it - is only £2 per week.
My thoughts are that if you charge peanuts for something - it is not always valued and looked after - than if it had cost a lot more. Potentially you will have less vandalism and thefts too!
Old Bird
;D
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hi and welcome to the site, i haven't got a clue what to advise you but others here will certainly giveyou lots to think about. lotty cost and the facilities they provide have come up here a few time since i joined last year and a quick search provided these links that i thought you might find useful:
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,46121.0.html (http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,46121.0.html)
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,44944.0.html (http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,44944.0.html)
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,799.0.html (http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,799.0.html)
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,49719.msg504797.html#new (http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,49719.msg504797.html#new)
hope they help and good luck keeping your farm going.
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Have you looked into "change of use" planning permission? I have read (RHS journal) of people who extended their garden into their own field and were forced to plough it up and restore the field to its original state, because they had not looked into planning permission.
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While I agree on the need for Privacy for Ladies Deb... men are far more able to just "observe" the scenery over a hedge, we have proper toilets here...!! :)
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Toilets would be an advantage as not everyone shares the traditional ethos of recycling it. Plotholders would feel more able to bring their families down i there was one, and it would make it easier to create a family atmosphere. Depending on the number of plots involved, you might need a septic tank; they're expensive to put in, but cost nothing to run thereafter.
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Hi greenbelt,
May i say i'm happy to see someone with surplus land willing to give some up so the allotment / grow your own movement can expand, and in these hard times familys can get land to grow food.
I would only have one major problem and that would be change of use of the land and putting in any kind of services , as you have all ready said your surounded by houses and changing use of land could affect how easy or difficult the local authority could purchase your land for housing.
What i would do with your neighbours who have taken a piece of your land as there own , would be to get your field boundery surveyed so you know where it is and then work out how many square feet they have grabed then charge them rental each year for the space as you can not grow crops on it.
Why should you lose crop space to these people and not make a living as it would cost you money to rent a field even if it's grass.
One last thing , is there an local allotment association who can manage the site for you rather than have to deal with the added paper work associated with running the site and evicting tennants, a small loss of revenue to you for piece of mind may be worth it.
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The Garden Law site would be a good place to ask questions re: Change of Use legalities, etc:-
http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/
Hope this helps, and good luck! Splendid initiative 8)
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Like the idea, but wouldn't pay £100 a year for it. :(
£100 buys a lot of veg from the supermarket and thats without all the time and effort a lottie would involve.
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I wouldn't either, but it took me years to get our association to raise the rent from £10pa. My target is £30 pa per 300sq yds... £24 from October. At £2 per week though it is great value... cheaper than any gymn... ;D
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although £100/ yr sounds steep but it really only works out to just over £8/ a month and that certainly will not buy you a month worth of veg. granted i may not want to pay out that much in one go so if i had an allotment at that price i would put aside my eight pounds every month so when bill time comes it won't hurt to pay (i'm qite certain there are times when i have wasted more on stuff i can't even acount for ::)), actually i would probably but aside more like ten that way i could start the new season with a little seed money as well :D.
oops sorry back to the topic at hand :-[.
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£8/ a month and that certainly will not buy you a month worth of veg. :-[.
Nor does my plot. Some months esp June/July/August theres a glut, but Nov-May, I get very little.
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i pay £116 for my plot, i would pay triple that if i had to.
lbb
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but Nov-May, I get very little.
Why?
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i pay £116 for my plot, i would pay triple that if i had to.
lbb
Hello lbb, Please can you tell me more .... such as where your plot is in the country / proximity to city, I'm assuming its privately owned, how you came to find it, what you use it for & how often . This would be very valuable advice & help me understand what different types of people are looking for & comfortbale to pay. I know from what people have said that they pay few pounds a year , but for my situation it would need to pay at least the same or more than grazing rental , which is currently very much in demand, if I was to go ahead with the infrastructure.
Thanks.
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£8/ a month and that certainly will not buy you a month worth of veg. :-[.
[Nor does my plot. Some months esp June/July/August theres a glut, but Nov-May, I get very little.]
you will have to plan alittle better this year ;D ;D
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In case this helps:
I pay £52 for three plots amounting to just over one whole plot (250 sq metres). Yes, I have them in order to grow more and more vegetables and fruit, and I would have plenty all the year round (even winter, with kale and broccoli, spinach, stored veg and fruit) if only people didn't demand more variety....
But uppermost in my mind when taking on the second and third plot, in a large open meadow with plenty of trees around the edges, was to have space for grandsons (7 of them so far, aged 2 to 13) to run around, build competitive bonfires, cook food, make little shelters, grow radishes, have picnics with and without their parents, and generally let off steam. They can't do this in my tiny back yard, and I find the village playgrounds stultifyingly boring with nothing for me to do but push swings and watch them playing.
I don't let them annoy other plot holders, of course. They know where not to go, and how much noise is too much, and the fires they love so much have to be tactfully placed, and so on.
I suspect that a lot of your future plot holders may have similar reasons - getting their families out of the house and small garden and into the open air with running space, BBQs and wobbly stick shelters, sand pits etc. Maybe you should be prepared for that, as well as for the traditional dedicated solo digger?
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i'm in surrey,
i was on the list for 2 1/2 years to get it,
its a council site.
lbb