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Photo Gallery => Our Pets => Topic started by: KittyKatt on February 13, 2009, 15:11:08
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I really could do with some advice on how to deal with a dog, as although I have cats I'm not really used to dogs, and I'm thinking that their psychology is probably very different. I go out cleaning for a living, and most of the houses have dogs. All nice dogs so far ( I won't work there if we don't get on!), but I had a bit of a problem with one this week, and I am wondering if the way I handled the situation was partly to blame.
The dog concerned is a Lhasa Apso (not sure of spelling!) around 18 months, spayed female, lives in a lovely home and is very much loved, a little spoilt and rather strong willed! She's still not completely reliably house trained, but that isn't the problem. She seems to be rather a jekyll and hyde character, as she can be really boisterous one minute, jumping all over the place, and almost cowed the next, dragging herself on the floor.
This week when I was there on my own with her as usual, she asked to go outside. I let her out. praised here when she had "been" and played with her for a while. Then I went back inside and left her in the garden (securely fenced) as she still wanted to stay out. I kept an eye on her, and noticed that after about 20 minutes she had settled down under the weeping willow. I left her for about 10 minutes more and went to call her in as it was cold outside and she's clipped so doesn't have much coat to keep her warm. She didn't come but thats not unusual as she wont come to anyone unless she feels like it! I was worried about her catching cold so I went to fetch her. She was still lying under the willow and when I went to pick her up she bit me. Not hard enough to break the skin but still a bite. When I tried to pick her up again she was definitely glaring and her lips were drawn back and she was showing her teeth, so she obviously meant business. Part of me thought to leave her there, but by this time she was shivering with the cold so I decided to persevere. Also the fact that I had asked her to do something, I thought it was important to follow through. I'm open to correction if I'm wrong on any of this! I tried to remain calm and speak calmly but firmly to her, and in the end put one hand on her scruff so she couldnt bite me again, the other under her bottom to support her, carried her inside (protesting!) put her in her bed and left her there.
I want to try and avoid making any more mistakes and being in a position of confrontation again. I could really do with some advice on how to handle her, as I don't really know how dogs think! I am wondering whether the enclosed space under the willow was like a den to her and she felt I was invading it? Would bribing her out with biscuits have been a better solution? The only things I have been doing with all the dogs I have dealings with are making sure I go through a door way before them , and if I have to feed any of them for any reason, making sure I eat first!
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Kitty Katt
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I suggest the dog is bored if it is left alone for more than a few hours.
Make friends with it by 1) Giving it nice titbits, and plenty of them, and 2) play with it.
Dogs have a natural urge to do a certain thing. Spaniels want to root about in hedgerows, while labradors love swimming. If their natural behaviour is prevented, they become frustrated, so if posible, let the dog behave naturally. Otherwise, the best game for most dogs is "tug-of-war". Be prepared for a lot of growling and boisterous stuff, but remember, that is what the game is about. Start off with a piece of rope or some other stuff designed for the game (nothing that the dog can swallow) and tease the dog with it. Make it a friendly contest, and make growling noises like the dog does. Don't let it get hold for the first 5 to 10 seconds, and then have a really good tug of war. Finally, let the dog win, and pretend you want to get the "tugger" back. The dog will run off in victory.
When the game is over, feed it, and expect it to want to play again. My dog always plays AFTER she has eaten, and so do wolves.
By the way. You can get excellent free advice about how to interact with dogs from the charity "Dogs Trust". http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/learn_with_dogs/
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I'm tempted to suggest a hefty boot up the a*** and a few hours 'time out' in the garden shed..
Joking aside, it sounds like this ickle diddums doggie has been spoilt rotten and thinks it rules the roost. The owners have probably pandered to its every neurosis, treating it like a surrogate baby. And Bjerreby may be right about boredom if it is left on its own for hours too.
I'd have a word with them, and explain that you were bitten. They may be really apologetic (they b****y well ought to be!), if so then maybe you could suggest behaviour classes, or buy them the Dog Borstal DVD. Unfortunately many owners are completely blind to their dogs faults, so you may not get very far.
One of the reasons I prefer cats.. the more you spoil them the sweeter they get!
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Might be an idea to suggest to the owners, they take the dog for a medical
checkup. If the dog is fit and well physicaly, then it has behaviour problems
that could benefit from training classes -- Dogs arn't best left daily for a long time,
which is not your fault. :)
floss xxx
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I would most certainly tell the owners what has happened.
She obviously has bad re call and she needs to be trained in this.
I know she was shivering but I bet if you had closed the door for a short time she would soon have been asking to come back in.
I do resort to treats,my westie likes to get behind the TV/sky box and she is a pain as she knows I hate her doing this.If I am busy I get her out with a treat as I have not got the time to mess about.
Someone has mentioned Dogs Trust,they do have great training leaflets.at the end of the day it is your workplace and you should be safe.
Talk to the owners about it :)
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Thank you all for the advice. The Dogs Trust seem very helpful. I've had a quick look and will definitely print out the leaflets. I'm going to try treats as well, as I do want her to associate me with nice things! I'll get something with very small pieces, as she is quite a picky eater, and also I don't want her to get fat. When her owners are around, if she doesn't eat her meals, then she is usually given something else! (not with me, though, if I have to feed her then if its not gone after 20 minutes it goes in the bin with no alternatives!) I also think playing is an excellent idea, as it might take her out of herself a bit. I think she is due for her annual check up at the vets soon, so hopefully she'll get a physical exam then. The Dogs Trust mention the use of the plug in DAP to help with nervous dogs. Has anyone tried this with success? This is something else I might mention to her owners, although I agree that boredom could well be at the bottom of her problems as well as anxiety. I think they have already tried one set of classes, but it didn't go very well. I'm not sure exactly what happened! I do think training is a very good idea though, so I might suggest they ask their vet to recommend some other classes, as among other things its really important she comes when called!
Kitty Katt
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KK I think you understand the saying now "Let sleeping dogs lie". Unless you really know and understand the animal, never try to move a snoozing dog, you are lucky the dog only 'mouthed' you. From what you have posted I think the dog's owners are as much to blame as any other reason but you sound as if you are doing all the right things. Can I just ask , what is a plug in DAP??
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Hi, Terrier the plug in DAP is a pheremone (sp?) that diffuses throughout the room. Its supposed to have a calming effect eg if the dog is nervous of fireworks, or suffers from separation anxiety. From what I've read, its similar to the feliway that I have used with the cats. Its a small capsule of liquid that you plug in to any socket, and wait for it to do its work. The Feliway has been very useful with fighting, spraying and with nervous cats!
Kitty Katt
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DAP, sounds Ok, what does it do for the owners ?
Might get some on snowed in days -- seriously, is that all it takes !
Got to thinking this is some over indulged dog -- it's going to take some expertise to
sort this one out. Did they have her from a pup ? If so they had no knowledge of dogs.
It seems unfare that you have to take the responsibility of preventing being bitten again,
the owners have to answer to these issues so tell them and let them get it sorted. !
KittyKat, you are a caring person but when push comes to shove - it's their responsibility.
Mean well floss xxx
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I agree this sounds a very spoiled dog who needs to learn some manners.
I think you managed the situation well. Treats might help, it might also teach the dog it will get treats if it misbehaves ;D
The point about a vet check is a good idea as animals become grumpy, just like humans, if they are unwell.
I do think it is very important to tell the owners you were bitten, they need to know.
D.A.P. Dog Appeasing Pheromone, gives out calming odours to reassure the dog, a little like a pregnant dog would to her puppies. Noooooo humans can't smell it!
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I wasn't going to jump in here, but from what you and everyone else has said it seems to me that the owners haven't a clue how to relate to dogs.
It's a fussy eater? Dogs are permanently hungry and eat anything! They love people - unless people have put them off loving them. They respond to being given orders - but only if that resulted in something positive. They are pack animals and need a boss.
And dogs need mental & physical stimulation. It sounds neglected to me.
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Agree with nippie, treats may well reinforce the bad behaviour.
I have a friend who used treats to bribe her child with since babyhood, giving them chocolate to distract them from tantrums etc. Surprise surprise, the child is an absolute horror. Quite glad I do not have either ;)
PS I suggest the owners check out this doggie 'problem page' http://www.lhasa-apso.org/bletters.htm. They don't sound like the most affectionate breed..
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Thanx KK, I'd not heard of DAP before, another weapon in the a r s enal, but I do tend to go with the general consensus in this thread that unless you can get the owners to toe the line and realise their committment it's going to be yet another problem dog. Unfortunately, with the best will in the world, there's no easy answer when this happens.
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Hi Kitty Katt
I am an 11 year old greyhound –collie cross, that used to be called a “problem dog” by people who didn’t understand me. Happily, I’ve spent the last 10 and a quarter years with people who do, and we all get along champion.
We had a chat yesterday about your confrontation. I thought maybe I should tell you that many dogs, me included, have a recurring dream, and it happens almost daily.
I always dream I am hunting rabbits and things. If I was living wild, I would catch and kill them to eat by grabbing them across their shoulders or neck, and give them a really good shake to help crush their bones, very much the way you got hold of your opponent.
I believe you were bitten because the dog was frightened of you. I know you didn’t go for the neck until later, but I think you should know that if you tried to grab ME by the scuff of the neck I would definitely get the idea you wanted to hurt me, and I would bite you.
By the way, is that dog left alone for long periods? I used to get VERY bored when left alone all day………….just think, those people didn’t even know how to house train me properly!
http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/learn_with_dogs/
Best regards, Rosie
(http://i39.tinypic.com/348n6lv.jpg)
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Dear Rosie, Thank you for your input, and what a beautiful picture! It was very helpful to be given some insight into how a dog thinks, as that's something I know very little about and I know I have a lot to learn! She is left alone quite a lot, and I think she may suffer from separation anxiety as well as getting bored. Did I mention she is also quite destructive? Fortunately for me that hasnt affected me so far! Also, without going into details, the household where she lives has been quite volatile recently, which I think could be affecting her adversely. Hopefully things will start to be more stable now though.
Thank you also, Lewic - The link was quite an eye opener. I've printed it off, as it sounds as thought the breed is quite challenging. I think part of the trouble is they can look very cute, especially when clipped, when they can look like teddy bears, and some people arent prepared for the character underneath!
Kitty Katt
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(from Lewic's post)
PS I suggest the owners check out this doggie 'problem page' http://www.lhasa-apso.org/bletters.htm. They don't sound like the most affectionate breed..
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This link which Lewic posted is quite an eye-opener. The main problem with the breed would seem to be aggression. Lhasa Apsos were bred to be guard dogs but because they look so cute most people are not prepared for their behaviour. I was at a dog show once and wandered a bit too close to a bench where one of them was being groomed and it went mental at me! I was only walking past, not stopping to admire it.
Keep up the good work Kitty Kat, you seem like the ideal person for your job. Most people wouldn't be so caring or patient.
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No dog should be left longer than 4 hours !!
Dogs are pack animals and this ones 'pack' does not have a clue !!
I have 5 dogs and im the pack leader and any human is above the dogs in the pack !
Its not your place to sort this dog out, the owners need to deal with this and quickly !!!
Tell them what happened and that the dog needs training before she does draw blood and is put to sleep.
If this dog is allowed to go through doors first, is allowed to be a fussy feeder and is given treats she will only get worse !!
The whole household needs to deal with this not just one member.
Stupid owners ruin dogs !!
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flowersofshona2007, you are quite close to the truth in this business, however most dogs are solitary, and quite happy provided they have good humans to deal with. The problem is NOT the dog, it is US. I have to say that there is a lot of tripe written about dogs, and ignorant Homo sapiens (sorry for the oxymoron) write it.
Yes, dogs are descended from wolves. NO, you cannot treat a dog as if you would treat a wolf in captivity. Yes, dogs understand wolf body language. NO, dogs do NOT share every wolf idea, and they do NOT always respond to Homo sapiens acting like wolves. Sorry if you think differently, but 55 years of experience tell me I am right, and I have had long, intimate relationships with no less than 8 dogs of different breeds, some of them cross breeds. I have also known wild wolves in France , Italy and Norway, and they are NOT dogs!
If a dog were a wolf, it would run a thousand miles to get away from Homo sapiens. Dogs don’t. They know how affectionate we CAN be, but also how harsh and cruel we more often are. Hundreds of dog generations have developed an understanding with us for their own benefit, for the wild is callous. Wolves are a bit wiser; they are indifferent to us.
There are three primary reasons why dogs tolerate Homo sapiens:
• We give them food
• We give them shelter
• We recognize and respect their presence
In individual cases where Homo sapiens develops a CLOSE relationship with a dog (for that is a very rare thing in my experience), it is because the human
• does not dominate the animal
• participates in activities that the dog loves (walks /hunt games, guarding etc)
• provides company and luxuries (the dog is not in a zoo or circus captive)
• interacts with the animal about little things like flies buzzing about or prowling cats
• occasionally provides the animal with exhilaration
You cannot have a close relationship with a dog unless you regularly help the dog live according to its own nature. What would you think of me if I forced you to dismiss 90% of your own passions?
By now, some of you will be thinking I am a nut case, and you maybe even feel sorry for me. Well, I feel sorry that you have never enjoyed such an intimate relationship with another creature as I have, and I am not the only one who relates properly with man’s best friend. Would anyone like a reference to Dales Diary reports of proper dog friends? Would you like to see how man can train a spaniel to clear a 2m fence and cross a torrent to retrieve a rag, and then lick his face?
Homo sapiens? More like Homo stulus.
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Jareb, sorry , gotta shoot you down here !
You can have a relationship of understanding with a dog -- I think you underestimate their
intelligence !! I always knew my dog [ G S ] had a level of intelligence that was probably
beyond mine, in the respect that he anticipated my thoughts and body language, was complient to be
being a pack member, because his world was ordered that way. He was a happy ' wolf ' !!
He was fed , loved and knew his ' position ' in the order of our lives. ......... I miss him like
you can't believe !
floss xxx
a pack member -- because he was happy that way .
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Well put flossy. The relationship between individual man and individual dog is paramount, otherwise you get the sort of stuff that started this thread. Dogs are NOT all wolves!
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What a lot of hot air we are all spouting...............I too have been alongside dogs most of my life,however I would not set myself up as an expert. :)
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It is easy enough to be around dogs for 100 years without being an expert Betula. Thousands of us do it. I do however claim I can get along with most dogs better than most people...........WOOF!
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You better come and live with me then...........any creature that says woof is one of my best pals ;D
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Lets put it this way then if dogs are NOT pack animals why when i had to go into hospital did this pack fall out ?? I was away for 9 days and on my return i had to re set the pack ! I have no un neutered dogs but the 2 males fell out trying to take my place.
Im no expert but i do live with a pack and they all run free on walks and i can trust them all to come back to me with no hesitation and none have been 'trained' as such.
The point is this dog has already bitten, ok not drawn blood but the next time could be very different ! if the owners dont sort the dog out and allow it to think its ok to bite humans the day will come when it will be destroyed and called a ' nasty dog' its the owners causing this problem and no dog should be left alone all day, why get a dog and put it in prison all day ??? if you cant be with it why have it ???
I breed 1 litter evey 2 years and i willnot sell a pup to anyone who works all day and i do ask several times and have refused a few times if i was not happy.
Giving treats for bad behaviour is going to make the dog worse :( my heart sink when i hear about nasty dogs, its stupid owners.
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I readily concede that if there are several dogs living together, the situation is different. But most dogs don't live with other dogs, and I understood that this particular case concerned a lone dog living with people.
One of the most striking examples of one dog / one man relationshps I recall is from my Army days back in 1971. We had 3 Polish men to guard our armoury near Farnborough. Each man had his own "war dog", and these were huge, ferocious animals that could kill a man. Funny then, how the dog handlers rolled about and frolicked with their dogs, and how affectionate the relationship was. Nobody was pretending to be a wolf, and if they did, they would very likely have been seriously hurt by the dog.
No, this special relationship with single dogs does not build upon fear or dominance. There has to be playful rivalry and gentle discipline, but above all, mutual trust and affection. Once you have that, the dog will not want to join a pack.
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Dogs are pack animals,regardless of if you have a good relationship with your dog.
All dogs are capable of biting no matter how well trained.
It makes me cross when I read people saying oh mine are great with kids they would never bite. :(
I believe this as They are capable of what I would describe as jealousy.
When my husband comes in ,both my dogs want his attention.My collie will fight with my terrier if she thinks the terrier is getting more attention.
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KittyKatt, my understanding is that you're there to do your job - you're there to clean, not to be a dog minder/trainer/playmate to it. The dog needs to be let out while you're there? - fine. Take it out into the garden on a lead and don't let it off it - just as you would do if you had to walk it in the street. Should it display aggression towards you when it's back in the house, ask its owners to buy a cage for it to be put in for the time you're there. Any other probs with the dog are theirs, not yours. 8)
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Has Homo sapiens ever been typed more than in this thread.
It does sound like the dogs owners treat it like a baby which should be avoided.
Dogs are pack pack animals, thats a fact!