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Produce => Edible Plants => Topic started by: vegmandan on February 01, 2009, 22:52:00

Title: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: vegmandan on February 01, 2009, 22:52:00: I see that the Global Warming debate has cooled off a bit lately especially regarding this country.

The coldest Summer for ages followed by a pretty frigid Winter so far ,and some pretty cold stuff to come this week apparently.

Russia and Germany suffering their coldest temperatures for a generation

So what's happened.?

I thought we were all supposed to be going to be able to grow tropical plants during Winter due to the seismic shift in world temperatures.

Yeah Right ! ???
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: ceres on February 01, 2009, 22:59:09: Quote from: vegmandan on February 01, 2009, 22:52:00
So what's happened.?

Australia's got everyone's share of the heat at the moment!
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Pesky Wabbit on February 01, 2009, 23:22:06: Credit Crunch.

The Credit Crunch has seen a dramatic reduction in the sales organic food and the interest in protecting the environmment.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 01, 2009, 23:46:53: the boffins dont call it global warming now (probably because they are wrong) its now called climate change (to cover every angle)
if its freezing its due to climate change
if its hot as hell its due to climate change
the reasons well there are many but heres one
http://www.divulgence.net/
more here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Ninnyscrops. on February 02, 2009, 00:02:05: This cold long winter reminds me of my childhood...........
The long hot summers remind me of my childhood..........

Climate change ???
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: triffid on February 02, 2009, 00:26:58: Quote from: vegmandan on February 01, 2009, 22:52:00
... I thought we were all supposed to be going to be able to grow tropical plants during Winter due to the seismic shift in world temperatures. ...

Yep, I used to have cheerful thoughts about vineyards. ;D

Did you ever see a fairly silly sci-fi/disaster movie called The Day After Tomorrow? The world freezing over because global warming had caused the shut-down of the North Atlantic Drift? (essentially the central-heating system for the northern hemisphere)
Although its effects would take decades to materialise (rather than happening overnight as it did in the film) the idea is a real - and scarily credible - scientific theory.

Basically, the reason we have the (relatively) mild climate that we do in the UK is largely thanks to the warming effect of the Gulf Stream current. That's a little branch of the much bigger North Atlantic Drift. And this global ocean current is driven by heat, cold, and levels of salt in the sea. It's like a river, running within the oceans.

Anyway, by the time the North Atlantic Drift reaches the freezing Arctic north of Greenland and Norway, evaporation has made the shallower water saltier than the deeper water.
That added salt means that the water is denser, so it sinks (first having cooled in the Arctic temperatures).
Down in the depths, it then slowly flows back south, travelling between Greenland and Scotland, in a stream known as the North Atlantic Deep Water.
Eventually (some scientists think a thousand years later) it reaches the point where it started, in the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans, where it picks up warmth, which causes it to rise, and the whole cycle starts again.
Trouble is, the rapidly melting glaciers across the Arctic may be disturbing the saltiness of the water near the surface when the North Atlantic Drift gets to its northern turning point. And if too much fresh water from those melting glaciers mixes with it, then eventually the fresh water will dilute the saltiness: it just won't become dense enough to sink.

If that happens, then we're in real trouble, because the whole of this submarine river will grind to a halt. No central heating for Europe or Scandinavia; no cooling system for the southern hemisphere. Temperature drops of 5-10C are apparently what we could expect.

Like everything connected with oceanography, most of this is really hard to prove. (The melting glaciers are fact, however). We know deplorably little about how the big ocean motors are driven, and measurements of sea temperatures are relatively recent (compared to land records for England dating back to the 1700s, for example).
But it is one of the 'climate change' theories that gives knowledgeable oceanographers sleepless nights... which is enough to worry me.

Apologies for the serious answer. I'll go roll in the snow now to cool my overheated brain. ;D
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Gobby on February 02, 2009, 08:24:09: Actually warming wont occur for another 8 years, we had 10 years of el nino (the boy), now we have the opposite effect for 10 years with la nina (the girll) which has the opposite effect on the ocean currents, so another 8 years of crummy cold weather before it starts heating up again.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 02, 2009, 08:31:30: Global warming results in more chaotic & extreme weather patterns and less consistency... Seems to me that's exactly what we have! This is the proof!
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Kea on February 02, 2009, 08:50:54: Ollie is correct. It's been called climate change right from the beginning. You can put your head in the sand but it won't change anything it's really too late now.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: mat on February 02, 2009, 09:28:04: I am afraid I don't agree with this being caused by climate change!!! It is normal to get weather like this in the winter. The earth goes in cycles as Gobby said. its just more in the news when the snow comes to the SE... Snow is normal weather, this is certainly (so far) not extreme. Now if we got 2 foot of snow across the country and it lasted for weeks, then that would be extreme, but we had more snow than this every winter when I was a child...
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: tonybloke on February 02, 2009, 09:31:14: Well put Triffid!
Apparentley the atlantic conveyor actually stopped for a couple of days last year! :o :o
The last time we had reliable distinct seasons was in the 70's. trouble is, the planet don't follow the calendar as strictly as we do!! ;)
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 02, 2009, 10:19:46: i agree with mat this is not extreme, its normal.
im not a believer in the global warming/climate change scaremongery.
although i do have a very low footprint and campaign against companies who create vast amounts of waste (supermarkets airports etc) and campaign against the carbon offsetting scam
i do this because i believe we ARE poisoning the planet and our children not because we get snow in winter
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on February 02, 2009, 18:36:59: Climate change is a global phenomenon not a local one; local weather is as variable as ever if not more so, especially here. We're on the boundary between two air masses, plus we're on the edge of a large continent, so our weather always has been all over the place. But despite the local conditions, last year was the tenth warmest ever recorded overall. It would be nice if we could stick our heads up our bums and wait for climate change to vanish like a ghost at thingy-crow, but it won't happen that easily unfortunately.

Remember how the tobacco companies were spending fortunes back in the Seventies, trying to convince everyone that smoking didn't cause cancer? We've just had a period when Bush and the oil companies were doing the same over climate change. Do you really think they're reliable witnesses?
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Suzanne on February 02, 2009, 18:49:38: Sea levels are still rising due to reduction in polar ice...... So if you have an ambition to holiday in the Maldives or to see Polar Bears in the wild apparently we need to do so soon as they may not be around much longer.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 02, 2009, 19:15:11: Quote from: Suzanne on February 02, 2009, 18:49:38
Sea levels are still rising due to reduction in polar ice...... So if you have an ambition to holiday in the Maldives or to see Polar Bears in the wild apparently we need to do so soon as they may not be around much longer.

;D

would this not contribute to them going sooner

According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) the sea level has risen 6 to 8 inches (15 to 20 cm) in the last 100 years This higher temperature may be causing some floating icebergs to melt, but this will not make the oceans rise.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Gobby on February 02, 2009, 21:06:49: OK simple physics, as objects warm they expand, when ice melts it follows the same rules, so even an iceberg would increase in volume when it melts, and it's not just icebergs melting it's also glacias that have not melted in 1000's of years. Though we have cycles in tempurature around the world and while we are in La Nina we should experience lower tempurature's by 2-3oC last year we had no warming at all, this disguises the warming effect, but when Nino starts up again we can expect much higher tempuratures then we had for the last 10 years of it.

Though i agree that climate change (read global warming) is happening, there is simply nothing that could ever be done to stop it at this stage as no one could stop developing countries from using fosile fules etc, we simply dont have the right to say they cant develop as far as say the UK or US as we'd be laughed out of the room.

(good example of this would be India or Pakistan, which in a few years will be become one of the main users of fosile fules, we could never stop them)

Just my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of others on this site. ::)
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Pesky Wabbit on February 02, 2009, 22:43:05: Quote from: Gobby on February 02, 2009, 21:06:49
... so even an iceberg would increase in volume when it melts...

You really sure about that ?

Ice floats, right ? which means its less dense than water. Ie a larger volume for the same amount liquid.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 03, 2009, 06:28:01: I don't think there's any sensible debate about man made climate change... but I would point out that anyone who thinks melting ice caps will result in rising sea levels should brush up on their Archimedes...
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: RobinOfTheHood on February 03, 2009, 07:16:23: Water is at its most dense at 4 degrees centigrade. Ice is less dense than water....

Oh, and global warming is a con.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: saddad on February 03, 2009, 07:30:19: In answer to the title....

Australia for it's Holidays... ;D

As Ceres Said... :)
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Gobby on February 03, 2009, 07:59:49: Water is at its most dense at 4 degrees centigrade. Ice is less dense than water....

Fresh water is most dense at 3.9 oC yes, but salt water is most dense at it's freezing point and before someone says that ice is fresh water it is't it undergoes a brine rejection process after freezing.

Ice floats, right ? which means its less dense than water. Ie a larger volume for the same amount liquid.

Ocean water with a typical salinity of 35 parts per thousand freezes only at −1.8°C (28.9°F). So if there were no halocline in the polar oceans, then the cooled top ocean layer, being denser, would sink into the deep ocean, in the same way as thunderstorm clouds rise in the atmosphere, and the entire ocean column would have to cool to −1.8°C before its surface could freeze.

Though iceburgs are slightly lower in density due to above process they have a mass over-water so this would account for the larger over all mass.
(ok graspping at straws there but it works in my mind)
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: gordonsveg on February 03, 2009, 10:41:49: Its gone to the same place that the ice age that was coming in 1963 has gone to. Remember it?????????
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: gordonsveg on February 03, 2009, 10:50:42: 15000 years ago this little bit of earth was under half a mile of ice,no cars,power stations, no cows releasing gas and dare i say it not even the know it all brigade belching out hot air when you dont agree with them.SO HOW COME IT WARMED UP AND NEARLY ALL THE ICE MELTED. Its part of a natural cycle.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: ACE on February 03, 2009, 10:59:49: There are too many people making money from the gullable, even the government jumped on the band wagon. So climate change/ global warming will keep on going until the people being conned are broke (they will never admit they are wrong) and there is no more profit in it.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 03, 2009, 11:59:25: Quote from: ACE on February 03, 2009, 10:59:49
There are too many people making money from the gullable, even the government jumped on the band wagon. So climate change/ global warming will keep on going until the people being conned are broke (they will never admit they are wrong) and there is no more profit in it.

WHAT HE SAID
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 03, 2009, 12:16:59: Just 'cos people are making money out of it, doesn't mean it's not real. Some people make money out of gardening, it doesn't mean gardens or their problems aren't real, does it... The vast majority of the scientific community (and all respected scientists) believe in climate change, just 'cos you don't want it to be true doesn't make you right.

The only debate between people who understand it, is how severe the impact will be, not whether it's real or not.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: ACE on February 03, 2009, 12:29:46: Quote from: ACE on February 03, 2009, 10:59:49
(they will never admit they are wrong)
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: lancelotment on February 03, 2009, 13:09:45: Scraped an inch of global warming off my car windscreen before I could drive in this morning!
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 03, 2009, 13:32:19: When climate scientist Andrew Weaver considers the idea of tinkering with Earth's air, water or sunlight to fight global warming, he remembers the lessons of a favourite children's book.

In the book, a cheese-loving king's castle is infested with mice. So the king brings in cats to get rid of the mice. Then the castle's overrun with cats, so he brings in dogs to get rid of them, then lions to get rid of the dogs, elephants to get rid of the lions, and finally, mice to get rid of the elephants.

That scenario in The King, the Mice and the Cheese, by Nancy and Eric Gurney, should give scientists pause before taking extreme measures to mess with Mother Nature, says Weaver of the University of Victoria.

However, in recent months, several scientists are considering doing just that.

They are exploring global warming solutions that sound wholly far-fetched, including giant artificial "trees" that would filter carbon dioxide out of the air, a bizarre "solar shade" created by a trillion flying saucers that lower Earth's temperature, and a scheme that mimics a volcano by spewing light-reflecting sulphates high in the sky.

extract from the parlimentary office of science and technology

A small minority of scientists claim that recent climate
change is due to factors other than increased CO2 levels,
such as the impact of solar activity

Cosmic Rays
The Danish scientist Svensmark has put forward the theory
that climate is controlled by cosmic rays. Cosmic rays are
energetic particles arising from deep space that impinge on
the earth’s atmosphere.

unfortionatly most scientists are as mad as a box of cheese crackers
as there are so many differing views for and against, and the reasons for climate change, no one can say for sure.
but answer this why has the goverment done nothing nothing except tax us, and where have they spent the money i cannot state 1 meaningful thing this goverment has done to help towards climate change.
how much damage is being done by bombing the crap out of iraq, are they forcing the big companies to be clean are they subsidising solar panels or small wind generators, are they banning holiday makers from jetting off polluting the air, are they responsibly for anything enviromently friendly apart from taxing us. no they are not,
we are just paying money hand over fist with no idea how much of our "green taxes* are being used to bomb people.
carbon offsetting scam a company spews out thousands of tonnes of pollution but as long as it pays a company to buy some solar powered cookers at the Mapetla old age homei n Soweto . The provision of solar cookers significantly reduces carbon emissions by limiting the need for electric stoves. yeah right pull the other one. how about making the big company reduce their carbon emmisions.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on February 03, 2009, 14:51:57: Ice floats because it's slightly less dense than water, but it's quite correct that if all the floating ice melted that would cause no rise in sea level. If all the ice on land melted, that's what would produce the major rise. I'm not sure how many cubic miles there are in the Antarctic and Greenland Ice Caps, but it's a lot!
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: RSJK on February 03, 2009, 20:04:59: When i watched Victorin Farming last week it was mentioned on there that they had had a spell of wet summers one after the other.....got me thinking what have our last two summers been like, Swings and roundabouts me thinks.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: amphibian on February 03, 2009, 21:05:38: Quote from: Robert_Brenchley on February 03, 2009, 14:51:57
Ice floats because it's slightly less dense than water, but it's quite correct that if all the floating ice melted that would cause no rise in sea level. If all the ice on land melted, that's what would produce the major rise. I'm not sure how many cubic miles there are in the Antarctic and Greenland Ice Caps, but it's a lot!

This ignores the fact that permanent floating polar ice is covered in metres of accumulated snow, of fresh water composition.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: vegmandan on February 03, 2009, 23:15:17: In the 1970's so called Scientific Studies revealed that there was only about 10-20 years worth of Oil left on the entire planet.

Hmmm.. ;)

What happened to that theory then.? ???

I'll put it with the new supposed "Climate Change" theory. :P
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: saddad on February 03, 2009, 23:24:48: I agree Dan, I did a Gweog degree at the end of the 70's and all sorts of things, like oil, were going to have run out by now.... :o
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Pesky Wabbit on February 04, 2009, 01:15:21: But isn't just a case our (computer) technology improving such that we can now find oil in places we couldn't even explore before and the ability to drill deeper ?
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 04, 2009, 06:13:33: Quote from: Pesky Wabbit on February 04, 2009, 01:15:21
But isn't just a case our (computer) technology improving such that we can now find oil in places we couldn't even explore before and the ability to drill deeper ?

Yes it is, and we've reached peak production. Some reserves have also become more accessable dues to retreating ice... which is ironic in an Alanis Morisette kinda way.

Dan, just because one model was 20 years out (which is still within 20% accuracy), doesn't make another theory wrong...
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: RobinOfTheHood on February 04, 2009, 07:08:30: Quote from: ACE on February 03, 2009, 10:59:49
There are too many people making money from the gullable, even the government jumped on the band wagon. So climate change/ global warming will keep on going until the people being conned are broke (they will never admit they are wrong) and there is no more profit in it.

Spot on, thank you Ace.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: amphibian on February 04, 2009, 08:23:32: Quote from: ACE on February 03, 2009, 10:59:49
There are too many people making money from the gullable, even the government jumped on the band wagon. So climate change/ global warming will keep on going until the people being conned are broke (they will never admit they are wrong) and there is no more profit in it.

What evidence is there that the climate change camp are wrong?
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 04, 2009, 08:52:39: Quote from: amphibian on February 04, 2009, 08:23:32
Quote from: ACE on February 03, 2009, 10:59:49
There are too many people making money from the gullable, even the government jumped on the band wagon. So climate change/ global warming will keep on going until the people being conned are broke (they will never admit they are wrong) and there is no more profit in it.

What evidence is there that the climate change camp are wrong?

because its bloody freezing ;D

by the way what happened to acid rain ?? did we cure it or just get bored of preaching it.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Kea on February 04, 2009, 14:24:29: Quote from: Richard Kinson on February 03, 2009, 20:04:59

When i watched Victorin Farming last week it was mentioned on there that they had had a spell of wet summers one after the other.....got me thinking what have our last two summers been like, Swings and roundabouts me thinks.
#

Sorry but I'm confused. Are you saying that wet summers indicate global warming is not happening?
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 04, 2009, 14:45:17: Quote from: Kea on February 04, 2009, 14:24:29
Quote from: Richard Kinson on February 03, 2009, 20:04:59

When i watched Victorin Farming last week it was mentioned on there that they had had a spell of wet summers one after the other.....got me thinking what have our last two summers been like, Swings and roundabouts me thinks.
#

Sorry but I'm confused. Are you saying that wet summers indicate global warming is not happening?

the only summer i cannot remember being wet was 1974, why are you going to tell us that its because of global warming,

what about all the methane gas from (insert the latest) cows sheep monkeys etc etc
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Kea on February 04, 2009, 15:06:48: Yes I am, global warming increases precipitation in temperate regions. Global warming was well under way before 1974. When you make changes to a system that is in equilibrium it causes fluctuations until it reaches a new equilibrium. Human's have been making changes and affecting their environment since the start of the industrial revolution, more and more every year and we are gradually starting to see the effect. My lecturer's all said 'when the permafrost starts to melt we will know we are in big trouble'. Well guess what!

Even worse will be the release of methane stored in the peat which could cause a feed back response.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on February 04, 2009, 18:37:11: Acid rain has been around since the Industrial Revolution, but it became an issue because acid from our coal-fired power stations was killing forests and fish wholesale in Scandinavia. With the demise of our coal industry it ceased to be a problem here. it still is a problem in other parts of the world, such as India and China, but for political reasons they're not making an issue of it. No doubt the day will come.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: RSJK on February 04, 2009, 19:45:49: Kea+les65

I am trying to say that weather comes round in circles, we have had 2 wet summers the last 2 years..........

It was said on Victorian Farm that they had a spell of wet summers,, I did not hear anything about Global warming then being blamed for the weather.

I agree with most of the replies on here

these scares keep people in well paid jobs and the Government a excuse to tax us more.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: coznbob on February 04, 2009, 19:52:32: If I was being pedantic.... ::)

Acid rain has been around a lot longer, volcanic eruptions spew out a lot of harmful gases contributing to acid rain... The Industrial revolution has made the problem worse

The rise in sea level IS caused by the glaciers etc melting, the melt water in the oceans undergoes thermal expansion, so the warmer it gets, the more it expands, causing the rise. Not to mention all the temp. changes and salinity issues already so eloquently explained.

Fluctuations in sea levels and temperatures have always occurred, the time scale of these changes is the cause for concern. Ice core studies have shown that the speed in which they are occurring at present is unusual to say the least...

To all those that aren't quite to so to date with their info. Research it, its fascinating ;D
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Kea on February 06, 2009, 10:49:23: Quote from: coznbob on February 04, 2009, 19:52:32

Fluctuations in sea levels and temperatures have always occurred, the time scale of these changes is the cause for concern. Ice core studies have shown that the speed in which they are occurring at present is unusual to say the least...

Precisely.....that's where the non believer's are missing the point.....it's the speed of the change that is important past changes have occurred over thousands of years and even then species have been wiped out because they didn't keep up with the changes. We are seeing these changes over a very short time period.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on February 06, 2009, 15:02:15: Problem is, not many people are in a position to judge between 'authorities', and we've been deluged with half-truths, lies, damned lies and propaganda by people who knew exactly what they were doing.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: littlebabybird on February 06, 2009, 19:20:54: Quote from: tonybloke on February 02, 2009, 09:31:14
Well put Triffid!
Apparentley the atlantic conveyor actually stopped for a couple of days last year! :o :o
The last time we had reliable distinct seasons was in the 70's. trouble is, the planet don't follow the calendar as strictly as we do!! ;)

tony, where can i read about this?
lbb
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: tonybloke on February 06, 2009, 19:29:21: Marcus Brigstock did a sketch about this a while back, after spending time on a research vessel.(radio 4, the only beeb worth listening to?) ;D ;D
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: cheese49 on February 06, 2009, 23:29:03: But surely Tony as you're from Norfolk the rising sea levels won't affect you much.

You'll be able so swim away quicker than most due to your webbed feet. ;D
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Ninnyscrops. on February 06, 2009, 23:41:04: Harsh cheese49 ;D
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: redimp on February 07, 2009, 01:03:40: Right - I have kept up with this thread with interest but have refused to comment up till now.
perhaps I should write
over her so most of you can
read it
Cimate change is happening and this winter may (I will not say is) be an indicator of it. We are on the same latitude as Canada's border with Alaska, Siberia and Northern Europe. So by rights, our weather should be like this all winter long. It is not because of the gulf stream that washes our sceptred isle with warm weather from the Caribbean and Central America. This is why we are warmer and why birds from areas that share our latitude over winter here. Climate change will knock out this effect, maybe not yet, but it will. We will get winters like this all winter long every year - this will please the car drivers because it will then be worth investing the millions in better winter protection for the roads rather than every 18 years as now. This does not mean that overall, polar ice caps and glaciers are not melting, they are despite there being local anomalies. It does not mean there will not be increased desertification of the land masses that remain - there will be because where rainfall is low, it will get lower. Cimate change deniers are worse than holocaust deniers because it will kill more people and they are blind through choice because they want to keep their cushy resource rich lifestyles that will ultimately result in the deaths of 10's if not 100's of millions of people who do not have that choice.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 07, 2009, 01:44:01: to compare someone cynical of global warming (climate change) with holocaust deniers is an absurd statement, there has been irrefutable evidence of the crime done.
there is no irrefutable evidence of global warming (climate change) even the name has been change to be as vauge as possible.
IF the risk is repairable why do the goverments continue to do nothing, think of how much damage must be done every time a spaceship goes through our atmosphere not to mention the pollution.
all the planes taking people on their holidays spewing out toxic waste.
just 2 examples, but two of the worse.

IF the risk is not repairable why are we even bothering, we are already doomed.

the human race have only been on this planet a short space of time we cannot guess what is happening we do not have the benefit of data for the complete lifecycle of the earth to compare.

i have been on http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Your-impact-on-climate-change/How-we-contribute-to-climate-change/What-is-a-carbon-footprint.

my carbon footprint is 1.6 tonnes (family of 6) and im trying to reduce that. i would like to suggest others try it (answer honestly)
i do not consider myself to have a cushy resource rich lifestyle, i am thrifty, i recycle, i grow my own where possible, i have never jetted off on holiday.
but i still feel its just scaremongery whipped up by the media, and pounced on by the present goverment as another way to tax us under the pretense of enviromental care.
apart from talking i dont know of anything meaningful the (uk)goverment has done.
the americans have done nothing (as yet).
we get some snow and its the worse in 18 years, well not where im living, about 10 years ago it was twice as thick and stayed for about 2 weeks.
we get some rain and it floods and its because of climate change, nothing to do with building on flood plains, or building by the side of a river, or not cleaning out the ditches.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: amphibian on February 07, 2009, 06:59:54: Quote from: les65 on February 07, 2009, 01:44:01
to compare someone cynical of global warming (climate change) with holocaust deniers is an absurd statement, there has been irrefutable evidence of the crime done.
there is no irrefutable evidence of global warming (climate change) even the name has been change to be as vauge as possible.

RC comparison is one I cannot support but it is not one RC invented, it ws first used gainst scientists that have opposed CC, and it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing to apply to scientists, right or wrong, that are providing evidence for or against something.

Quote
IF the risk is repairable why do the goverments continue to do nothing, think of how much damage must be done every time a spaceship goes through our atmosphere not to mention the pollution.
all the planes taking people on their holidays spewing out toxic waste.
just 2 examples, but two of the worse.

Why have they done nothing, because people don't want them to do anything, people oppose governments that want to impose reductions in their luxury modern life, or demand harder work of them, governments do nothing, because the people want to bury their heads in the sand, centre their lives around trips to Bluewater and holidays in the Med.

Governments are corrupt and power hungry, to get the power they crave they have to have the support of the people, they will do many many things not in the interest of anyone to maintain that power, including inaction.
IF the risk is not repairable why are we even bothering, we are already doomed.

Quote
the human race have only been on this planet a short space of time we cannot guess what is happening we do not have the benefit of data for the complete lifecycle of the earth to compare.

True. But even if CC is not true, anyone can see that our modern way of life is entirely unsustainable and destructive anyway, changing it is essential either which way, so why get caught up in the whole CC debate, just get on with living a better and healthier life for you, your family and for nature.

Quote
i have been on http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Your-impact-on-climate-change/How-we-contribute-to-climate-change/What-is-a-carbon-footprint.

my carbon footprint is 1.6 tonnes (family of 6) and im trying to reduce that. i would like to suggest others try it (answer honestly)
i do not consider myself to have a cushy resource rich lifestyle, i am thrifty, i recycle, i grow my own where possible, i have never jetted off on holiday.
but i still feel its just scaremongery whipped up by the media, and pounced on by the present goverment as another way to tax us under the pretense of enviromental care.
apart from talking i dont know of anything meaningful the (uk)goverment has done.
the americans have done nothing (as yet).
we get some snow and its the worse in 18 years, well not where im living, about 10 years ago it was twice as thick and stayed for about 2 weeks.
we get some rain and it floods and its because of climate change, nothing to do with building on flood plains, or building by the side of a river, or not cleaning out the ditches.

Sure alot of nonsense is spoken, by the media, about every weather event, but often this obvious fact is used as evidence that CC is a bunch of nonsense too, it doesn't follow, truth is we just don't know, but that there is some significant evidence to support CC.

I was a firm sceptic until I did some extensive research of my own, I am still far from convinced, but have seen enough to know we should change our ways, because we have bad anyways and because the risk is so huge.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: amphibian on February 07, 2009, 07:31:41: Quote
i have been on http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Your-impact-on-climate-change/How-we-contribute-to-climate-change/What-is-a-carbon-footprint.

I just ran that, I don't drive, don't heat my house, don't take flights, all my appliances are A rated, everything is off at the wall... my family of 3 comes out at 2.2 tonnes CO2/year, how on earth does a family of 6 come out at to 1.6?

There aren't enough options on there, it takes no account of food miles or the like.

All of the suggestions of things I do to reduce my footprint further where either things I already do or were not relevant to the answers I had given it. Such as I told it my house was heated by gas, and that I used no gas, yet it suggested I reduce my thermostat by 10%, which would do nowt.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 07, 2009, 07:51:00: I don't need to go on some website to calculate my carbon footprint - I know what I do that's bad and try to minimise it where I feel I have a choice.

Red's comparison is perfectly reasonable when you think about it. It even works if you take it a bit further - some people are still cashing in on an atrocity that happened 60 years ago, the same as some people are clearly cashing in on climate change. But that doesn't make the underlying cause worthless.

I come from a family of scientists and am reasonably scientific in my approach to life. I know many physicists having been to uni with them, and also know a number of biologists. I have never met a single scientist who thinks climate change is a myth. Scientist should look at the data, construct models, test the model against the observed data, and draw conclusions. Whichever way this is done leads to an overwhelmingly convincing conclusion that this is man made climate change.

If you approach the facts with an agenda, you can interpret them however you want. If you're objective & rational, you shouldn't be including what you want the truth to be.

A scientist who states that climate change isn't happening is an embarrassment to the scientific community due to his or her lack of objectivity, in the same way that a holocaust denying bishop is an embarrassment to the Catholic church due to his lack of compassion.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: tonybloke on February 07, 2009, 10:36:04: Quote from: cheese49 on February 06, 2009, 23:29:03
But surely Tony as you're from Norfolk the rising sea levels won't affect you much.

You'll be able so swim away quicker than most due to your webbed feet. ;D
I live in gorleston - on sea, 13.5 metres above sea level .
Also, Born in Newmarket, and raised in Cambridgeshire so don't have webbed feet!!! ;) ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: tonybloke on February 07, 2009, 10:49:21: Tried to do that carbon - footprint sketch. where's the option for a wood burner, fuelled from re cycled (skip) wood? our gas boiler is only for hot water, it ain't run the heating once since installed 5 yeare ago! we don't heat our bedrooms (plenty snuggles) ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on February 07, 2009, 18:45:32: I think there's a difference between the deliberate slaughter of hiuman beings - I don't care whether it's the Nazis, Rwanda, Armenia, or where it is, it's all the same - and killing people as a by-product of gross greed. But yes, the climate change deniers are setting us up for something that could easily wipe out our global civilisation. Scientifically, it is irrefutable. The evidence is there, but it's rather more technical than the evidence for the holocausts.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 08, 2009, 13:53:09: 31,000 American scientists "an embarrassment to the scientific community"
http://www.oism.org/pproject/

2 more embarrassment to the scientific community
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2005/aug/19/climatechange.climatechangeenvironment

A letter signed by over 50 leading members of the American Meteorological Society warned about the policies promoted by environmental pressure groups. "The policy initiatives derive from highly uncertain scientific theories. They are based on the unsupported assumption that catastrophic global warming follows from the burning of fossil fuel and requires immediate action
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/316/7138/1164

The Pope condemns the climate change prophets of doom
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501316/The-Pope-condemns-climate-change-prophets-doom.html

calling scientists an embarrassment to the scientific community just because they disagree with your point of view is a bit harsh, they would interpret data with a different outcome but i would expect them to make an intellegent conclusion based on the evidence given them,as would the scientists who come to an opposing conclusion.

the simple fact of the matter is, for every imminent disaster warning there is an opposing (and just as convincing) argument against.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: tonybloke on February 08, 2009, 13:58:19: The Pope condemns the climate change prophets of doom
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501316/The-Pope-condemns-climate-change-prophets-doom.html
since when has a God - Botherer been an expert on anything real? ;)
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 08, 2009, 14:09:40: I'm not really interested in talking to you anyway les, we established you were mental back when you accused me of child abuse, you moron. You make me sick.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: saddad on February 08, 2009, 14:26:12: Quote
The evidence is there, but it's rather more technical than the evidence for the holocausts.
And some people still try to deny that... :'(
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Kea on February 08, 2009, 14:48:43: I would like to point out that the Pope is not a scientist, just the head of a large group of people who believe in a myth.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: tonybloke on February 08, 2009, 14:55:15: that was my point! ;)
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: mat on February 08, 2009, 15:01:11: we all have different views, the diversity is why life can be interesting.

Scientists said sheep dip (organiphosphates) were safe. Government made it compulsory for farmers to use it twice a year on their sheep to stop scab... the consequences of which many of us are still suffering from today... me included... The only thing the instructions said was "wear rubber gloves when handling concentrate"... (this has just been disproved to be useless against organophosphates as they can get through rubber...) and that it was safe when diluted... I trusted what people said when I was young and innocent... I don't now... I do a lot more research of different opinions now...

scientists are human, we all make mistakes and have differnt opinions... lies... d**n lies... and statistics comes to mind...

I think we need to be careful not to insult people who have different views, but listen and learn why people have these different views.

mat
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: saddad on February 08, 2009, 15:02:49: So were DDT and some other chemicals... so safe we have had to withdraw them from use... :'(
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Eristic on February 08, 2009, 15:03:34: This thread is contributing more to global warming (real or otherwise) than the entire aviation industry. 8)
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Kea on February 08, 2009, 15:08:44: Quote from: tonybloke on February 08, 2009, 14:55:15
that was my point! ;)

Sorry Tony, I missed your post when I scrolled back.....I blame the horrendous cold I have that's making me nearly blind...everything is bleary and difficult to read!
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: tonybloke on February 08, 2009, 15:10:39: Quote from: Eristic on February 08, 2009, 15:03:34
This thread is contributing more to global warming (real or otherwise) than the entire aviation industry. 8)
ain't it so!!
Quote from: Kea on February 08, 2009, 15:08:44
Quote from: tonybloke on February 08, 2009, 14:55:15
that was my point! ;)

Sorry Tony, I missed your post when I scrolled back.....I blame the horrendous cold I have that's making me nearly blind...everything is bleary and difficult to read!
it's ok kea, we can share the point, glad to have a non believer on board!!
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Kea on February 08, 2009, 15:19:06: Well I'm waiting for someone to come and stamp on me for that comment...looks like we'll get stamped on together!
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 08, 2009, 15:41:42: Quote from: Kea on February 08, 2009, 15:19:06
Well I'm waiting for someone to come and stamp on me for that comment...looks like we'll get stamped on together!

Then let me be the first... As a committed member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I respectfully request that you at the very least acknowledge that my faith has at least as much evidence as the one the Pope chooses to follow.

Here is a link to me & my fellow believers:
http://www.venganza.org/
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 08, 2009, 16:26:24: Quote from: OllieC on February 08, 2009, 14:09:40
I'm not really interested in talking to you anyway les, we established you were mental back when you accused me of child abuse, you moron. You make me sick.

im mental, because i dont believe in the scaremongery or because i picked holes in your post.

either way im not concerned, my feelings about you have not changed, and if i make you feel sick then we at least have something in common.
your personal attack of me although off topic, was not unexpected but im old enough and wise enough to let it ride. i hope it made you feel better. ;D
i have apologised, i dont expect one in return and hope that this is not going to be an ongoing thing from you the debate was running along nicely with plenty of information being posted all of which was healthy.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 08, 2009, 16:27:11: Quote from: Kea on February 08, 2009, 14:48:43
I would like to point out that the Pope is not a scientist, just the head of a large group of people who believe in a myth.

;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: tonybloke on February 08, 2009, 16:48:08: this site has some of the answers
http://richarddawkins.net/
;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 08, 2009, 18:27:21: Quote from: les65 on February 08, 2009, 16:26:24
Quote from: OllieC on February 08, 2009, 14:09:40
I'm not really interested in talking to you anyway les, we established you were mental back when you accused me of child abuse, you moron. You make me sick.

im mental, because i dont believe in the scaremongery or because i picked holes in your post.

either way im not concerned, my feelings about you have not changed, and if i make you feel sick then we at least have something in common.
your personal attack of me although off topic, was not unexpected but im old enough and wise enough to let it ride. i hope it made you feel better. ;D
i have apologised, i dont expect one in return and hope that this is not going to be an ongoing thing from you the debate was running along nicely with plenty of information being posted all of which was healthy.

You accused me of child abuse on a public forum, send me a crappy pm in which you tell me again that I'm wrong, and then think everything's okay? You can take your apology, roll it up in your copy of the daily mail and then work out where it fits.

I repeat, you are sick and I can't believe you have the audacity to hang around here, pretending to be reasonable.

And FWIW, your input to this "debate" is pretty dumb too.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Gobby on February 08, 2009, 18:38:04: Noticed a comment about woodburning stoves, so had a look around and actually they are classed as carbon neutral as the carbon released is the same amount of carbon fixed by the tree as it grew.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: lewic on February 08, 2009, 18:53:41: Trouble is, none of us is likely to be around when 'they' find out definitively whether or not our actions have had an effect on the planets thermostat, or whether this has been a good or bad thing.

Agree there seems to be a lot of scaremongering (in the 70's the new ice age was looming - anyone remember that front cover of the Radio Times?), and many people are exploiting the environmental agenda, but surely it is prudent to err on the side of caution and not pump too much crap into the atmosphere.

My personal 'hunch' is that we are doing worse long-term things to the human race than flying to Benidorm or having a patio heater. Our use of toxic plastics, poisoning of the water supply with chemicals and weakening the next generations by overuse of antibiotics and vaccines.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: saddad on February 08, 2009, 18:59:15: Either way it will all end in tears...... :-X
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: valmarg on February 08, 2009, 19:06:07: There are times when I really, really get pissed off with this site. I have just taken a lot of time and trouble to make a post differentiating between climate change versus global warming. When I came to post it it has been buggered off into the ether.

Anyway, I'm going to watch Antiques RS.

valmarg
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 08, 2009, 20:59:39: Ah Val, me old China... did a bit of Antiques RS meself... you well?

O x
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: les65 on February 08, 2009, 21:15:07: Quote from: OllieC on February 08, 2009, 18:27:21
Quote from: les65 on February 08, 2009, 16:26:24
Quote from: OllieC on February 08, 2009, 14:09:40
I'm not really interested in talking to you anyway les, we established you were mental back when you accused me of child abuse, you moron. You make me sick.

im mental, because i dont believe in the scaremongery or because i picked holes in your post.

either way im not concerned, my feelings about you have not changed, and if i make you feel sick then we at least have something in common.
your personal attack of me although off topic, was not unexpected but im old enough and wise enough to let it ride. i hope it made you feel better. ;D
i have apologised, i dont expect one in return and hope that this is not going to be an ongoing thing from you the debate was running along nicely with plenty of information being posted all of which was healthy.

You accused me of child abuse on a public forum, send me a crappy pm in which you tell me again that I'm wrong, and then think everything's okay? You can take your apology, roll it up in your copy of the daily mail and then work out where it fits.

I repeat, you are sick and I can't believe you have the audacity to hang around here, pretending to be reasonable.

And FWIW, your input to this "debate" is pretty dumb too.

ok i am reasonable, my points are valid, and i know a sore loser. ;D
if you cannot be a man about it, you could at least refrain from bringing it back up.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: valmarg on February 08, 2009, 21:31:04: Quote from: OllieC on February 08, 2009, 20:59:39
Ah Val, me old China... did a bit of Antiques RS meself... you well?
O x

Glad you decided to hang on in here, Ollie despite. ;D ;D

Not so dusty myself, how are you?

valmarg
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: dtw on February 08, 2009, 21:37:27: Global warming is just an excuse for governments to charge extra tax.

If it goes the other way, we'll be charged ice tax.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: tonybloke on February 08, 2009, 21:58:38: Quote from: dtw on February 08, 2009, 21:37:27
Global warming is just an excuse for governments to charge extra tax.

If it goes the other way, we'll be charged ice tax.
so what? if I paid a grand a week in tax I'd be bl**dy happy!
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Bjerreby on February 09, 2009, 07:43:11: This is a fascinating thread. Regarding the rise in sea level, I’d put it like this:

Area of the Greenland ice cap = 1.7*10^6 km2
Average thickness of the Greenland ice cap = (say) 1.5 km
Volume of ice on the Greenland ice cap is approximately 2.55*10^6 km3
Radius of earth (considered a sphere) = 12,733 km
Say the area of the oceans is 75% of the world’s surface, about 3.8203*10^8 km2

Assuming the Greenland ice cap melts and all the water ends up in the oggin, the rise in sea level is 2.55*10^6 km³ / 3.8203*10^8 km2 = 6.6m. 8)

Great. I want to know however will it melt, and if it does, how much of the water will end up as vapour? As far as I can see, there are plenty of specialists with opinions, but who understands the bigger picture? According to Inuit legend, Greenland has seen plenty of significant thaws over the centuries. And why haven’t we heard any conclusions drawn from bored specimens of ice deep down, telling what the Greenland atmosphere was like a long time ago?
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on February 09, 2009, 10:55:29: Actually they have, and they've found heavy metal pollution from Roman industry. The ice isn't old enough to get back to significant atmospheric changes though.

As for variations in the climate there, that's well established. The Vikings were able to establish settlements there, where the people eventually starved because the climate got colder, and they couldn't or wouldn't adapt to an Inuit lifestyle. But it's been said before on this thread. It's not the fact of climate change that's scary. It's the speed. The Greenland icecap started to form a couple of million years ago.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Bjerreby on February 09, 2009, 11:16:28: Hmmmmmm.

The University of Copenhagen has been drilling up there for a long time. Several decades I think. They have ice core samples hundreds of thousands of years old.

I am confused that the Danes haven't sounded off with information they have gleaned out of all this drilling. If anyone likes to be seen as champions of the environment, it is them (despite my domestic water supply in Denmark requiring special treatment toremove pesticides) :-[
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on February 09, 2009, 13:07:57: As I say, they do have loads of info from the cores. It's just not the sort of stuff that makes news.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Kea on February 09, 2009, 15:51:09: The reason that in the 1970's they were talking about an ice age is because that was where we were supposed to be heading but slowly at the normal speed of natural climate change. Then they noticed that we were actually heading the other way but they didn't realise the speed that the warming was occurring at immediately. The change in global ambient CO2 levels is astounding. When I was doing my MSc I was measuring ambient CO2 as 320ppm (1984) now it's just over 380ppm.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: RobinOfTheHood on February 09, 2009, 21:30:38: http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

First hit on Google with the search "historic c02 atmospheric content"

And it's summary:

CONCLUSIONS

There are no experimental data to support the hypothesis that increases in human hydrocarbon use or in atmospheric carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases are causing or can be expected to cause unfavorable changes in global temperatures, weather, or landscape. There is no reason to limit human production of CO2, CH4, and other minor greenhouse gases as has been proposed (82,83,97,123).

We also need not worry about environmental calamities even if the current natural warming trend continues. The Earth has been much warmer during the past 3,000 years without catastrophic effects. Warmer weather extends growing seasons and generally improves the habitability of colder regions.

As coal, oil, and natural gas are used to feed and lift from poverty vast numbers of people across the globe, more CO2 will be released into the atmosphere. This will help to maintain and improve the health, longevity, prosperity, and productivity of all people.

The United States and other countries need to produce more energy, not less. The most practical, economical, and environmentally sound methods available are hydrocarbon and nuclear technologies.

Human use of coal, oil, and natural gas has not harmfully warmed the Earth, and the extrapolation of current trends shows that it will not do so in the foreseeable future. The CO2 produced does, however, accelerate the growth rates of plants and also permits plants to grow in drier regions. Animal life, which depends upon plants, also flourishes, and the diversity of plant and animal life is increased.

Human activities are producing part of the rise in CO2 in the atmosphere. Mankind is moving the carbon in coal, oil, and natural gas from below ground to the atmosphere, where it is available for conversion into living things. We are living in an increasingly lush environment of plants and animals as a result of this CO2 increase. Our children will therefore enjoy an Earth with far more plant and animal life than that with which we now are blessed.

Seems a little biased to say the least, but it does back it up well. Worth a look.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: vegmandan on February 10, 2009, 00:03:49: I'm just waiting for the almighty Gordon to introduce a Vegetarian Mung Bean and Chick Pea eaters, Pay Per Fart Tax,after the evidence that Cows excessive flatulence is being considered an issue in The Global Warming debate. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Eristic on February 10, 2009, 00:31:53: Quote
I'm just waiting for the almighty Gordon to introduce a Pay Per Fart Tax

Shusssh...!

Don't let the gorgon know about Dave the Hearty Joke eater.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Bjerreby on February 10, 2009, 08:17:33: I was fascinated by the first program in Simon Schama's series "A History of Britain". At Skara Brae there is a very well preserved stone age settlement, where there were remains of fish that today are only found around Cornwall. According to Schama, all the evidence is that in the stone age, the Orkney Islands were much warmer than they are now.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Kea on February 10, 2009, 12:09:53: Quote from: RobinOfTheHood on February 09, 2009, 21:30:38
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

First hit on Google with the search "historic c02 atmospheric content"

Seems a little biased to say the least, but it does back it up well. Worth a look.

Yes seems very biased and looking at the graphs which choose a date around 1940 as the point at which hydrocarbon use increases is very strange as that is much too recent. Industrialisation began more than 150 years before then and the world population started to increase rapidly increasing the clearing of land for food production etc removing CO2 sinks. It's not all down to humans driving their cars around.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Suzanne on February 10, 2009, 12:52:23: I think you have already coverd this but interesting.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on February 10, 2009, 15:51:15: There's a perfectly valid question as to why we're going through such a long interglacial, and one possibility is that a modicum of global warming over historical time has kept the glaciers at bay. in which case, it's possible that if we do succeed in zapping what passes for civilisation, an ice age will follow as the global warming gases decline again.

That article takes a great deal for granted. It's perfectly true that, if left to themselves, plants will tend to become that bit lusher, and use up the extra CO2. The reason why we have arge coal deposits from a specific geological period is that the atmosphere at the time was very high in CO2, and that's the point when plants evolved to the point where they were capable of exploiting it fully. But we're not leaving them to themselves, are we? We're cutting down the forests which soak up so much of the CO2.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: allaboutliverpool on February 10, 2009, 16:19:26: See my posting today "What snow", it has gone to Liverpool.

I am going skiing to France next week and expect to pull salad leaves on my return
http://www.allaboutliverpool.com/allaboutallotments1_homepage
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 10, 2009, 19:42:46: Quote from: Bjerreby on February 10, 2009, 08:17:33
I was fascinated by the first program in Simon Schama's series "A History of Britain". At Skara Brae there is a very well preserved stone age settlement, where there were remains of fish that today are only found around Cornwall. According to Schama, all the evidence is that in the stone age, the Orkney Islands were much warmer than they are now.

I've been there several times & presumably these fish remains are in the middens beside the huts... Out of interest, how did they catch the fish?
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: RobinOfTheHood on February 10, 2009, 22:08:51: Quote from: OllieC on February 10, 2009, 19:42:46
Quote from: Bjerreby on February 10, 2009, 08:17:33
I was fascinated by the first program in Simon Schama's series "A History of Britain". At Skara Brae there is a very well preserved stone age settlement, where there were remains of fish that today are only found around Cornwall. According to Schama, all the evidence is that in the stone age, the Orkney Islands were much warmer than they are now.

I've been there several times & presumably these fish remains are in the middens beside the huts... Out of interest, how did they catch the fish?

I would suggest a size 20 hook on 3lb monofilament line, with a couple of maggots.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 11, 2009, 06:36:49: Quote from: RobinOfTheHood on February 10, 2009, 22:08:51
Quote from: OllieC on February 10, 2009, 19:42:46
Quote from: Bjerreby on February 10, 2009, 08:17:33
I was fascinated by the first program in Simon Schama's series "A History of Britain". At Skara Brae there is a very well preserved stone age settlement, where there were remains of fish that today are only found around Cornwall. According to Schama, all the evidence is that in the stone age, the Orkney Islands were much warmer than they are now.

I've been there several times & presumably these fish remains are in the middens beside the huts... Out of interest, how did they catch the fish?

I would suggest a size 20 hook on 3lb monofilament line, with a couple of maggots.

Ah, very good... almost nobody uses Raggies up there. But for once I'm being serious, how did they catch them 4,000 years ago?
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on February 11, 2009, 17:50:13: In the sea? Those would be fish which had never been caught, so they weren't hook conscious. There would have been a lot more fish in the sea as well, with no monofilament nets for them to worry about.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: RobinOfTheHood on February 11, 2009, 18:24:14: OK then, maybe a size 0/4 lump of fish bone on a long root.

Fussy. ;)
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: ACE on February 11, 2009, 18:30:46: I expect it was something akin to an eel trap. made from reeds, willow and bark strips.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: tonybloke on February 11, 2009, 18:37:38: Or a net, made from natural fibres?
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: RobinOfTheHood on February 11, 2009, 18:54:01: Or a pet seal?
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: DERYCK32 on February 11, 2009, 19:00:03: There are many reasons on Global Warming posted here but do you remember Geoff H. on TV saying we must now prepare for growing plants etc. that will stand the hot weather we are going to have, How many years ago was that?
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 11, 2009, 21:39:14: Quote from: RobinOfTheHood on February 11, 2009, 18:54:01
Or a pet seal?

Now you're talking... ever blown a seal?
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: RobinOfTheHood on February 11, 2009, 22:02:02: Quote from: OllieC on February 11, 2009, 21:39:14
Quote from: RobinOfTheHood on February 11, 2009, 18:54:01
Or a pet seal?

Now you're talking... ever blown a seal?

No, it's just ice on me lips.......
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: asbean on February 12, 2009, 19:32:18: Quote from: OllieC on February 11, 2009, 21:39:14
Quote from: RobinOfTheHood on February 11, 2009, 18:54:01
Or a pet seal?

Now you're talking... ever blown a seal?

I've blown a gasket ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Bjerreby on February 13, 2009, 05:37:41: There are plenty of postings in this thread and I havn't trawled through to check, so please forgive me if this has been discussed already. But the Met Office Chief on climate change is feeling a bit peevish about false claims on the climate....

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2009/pr20090211.html
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: OllieC on February 13, 2009, 06:44:12: Quote from: Bjerreby on February 13, 2009, 05:37:41
There are plenty of postings in this thread and I havn't trawled through to check, so please forgive me if this has been discussed already. But the Met Office Chief on climate change is feeling a bit peevish about false claims on the climate....

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2009/pr20090211.html

An excellent piece of writing - thanks for posting.
Title: Re: OK. where's all this Global Warming gone ?
Post by: Robert_Brenchley on February 13, 2009, 10:40:28: That's exactly it. We're talking about a longterm, global phenomenon, and people on both sides keep pointing at short-term, often local situations to 'prove' a distorted perspective. Global warming is happening, and it's extremely serious, but there are also factors like El Nino/Nina, and maybe others we don't know about, which produce quite dramatic short-term fluctuations.