Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => Allotment Movement => Topic started by: Urban Phil on December 01, 2008, 13:29:34
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Hi folks……I’m new to this forum and this is my first posting but I was just wondering if there are any allotment sites out there without SHEDS?
The reason I ask is that I have a plot at Harthill Allotments in Liverpool (the same site as Dan) and the committee have continually actively discouraged sheds and greenhouses on our site. There seems to be no reason for this, other than the secretary doesn’t want them! There haven’t been sheds at Harthill for over 20 years so as allotment holders we took direct action against the committee and built a shed!
The reaction has been just stupid……We have had members of the committee running up to us saying ‘we can’t put it up because the ‘committee’ haven’t voted on it’ etc, etc!
Harthill Allotments is just about the most impoverished of all allotment sites on Merseyside and the ‘committee’ seem more interested in fighting its own members rather than fighting to improve the infrastructure of the site. We are the only site in Liverpool without sheds for gods sake!!!
Does anybody else have this problem?
All the Best
Urban Phil :-(
Ps- you can see our shed on the following link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/22835312@N03/3017196874
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Surely they should give clear reasons why no sheds, otherwise how can you have a sensible debate?
I can think they could attract vandals
some people might almost cover their plot in sheds (though for me, if they want to, why not?)
But personally I think sheds are one of the best bits of an allotment, especially those wonderful home made ones from old doors.
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Urban Phil welcome to the forum and well done.
The site I am on does not allow individual sheds/greenhouses which I find a bit disappointing however there each site in the area has one shed. I don't know how sites manage without one at all, we have plot holders who no longer drive so the shed is essential.
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Phil and welcome to A4all, it's a wonderful place.
I am no expert on these things but just wanted to wish you luck really. When I took my allotment on there was no shed and I survived without it the first season but now I have one it makes like so much better. Even just for sheltering from the rain it is so useful.
On our site we are only allowed 6' x 4', just like the one in your clip I think. They are all sited in a row at the back of the allotment so look very tidy and are painted in varying shades of green and brown. Would it be a compromise for your committee to allow sheds under similar rules so that they all look tidy?
I do love some of the lovely old sheds and wish we could have one like that, with character, but I love mine, it is so useful.
Good luck, I really hope you get it sorted.
T.
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Thanks for the welcome Susiebelle and Tulipa, the 'committee' did say that sheds would attract vandals but if you took that attitude you'd never do anything in life; why park a car outside your front door for fear of the windows going in? Why leave the house for fear of break-ins? There is a risk to everything in life (even allotment gardening) so if your prepared to take the risk why not?
I've had an allotment for over 13 years at Harthill WITHOUT A SHED! And to be honest having one is now a revelation. We contacted Liverpool City Council directly and after some research they found no reason why we couldn't have one and indeed they thought our request to be quite reasonable and granted it. A number of plot holders are now looking into getting one themselves and we've just put in an application for a Greenhouse!
Liverpool City Council asked the 'committee' to come up with a valid reason 'WHY' sheds should not be errected at Harthill..........They haven't given one other than the secretary didn't want them!!!!!
Tee Hee! The ‘committee’ can go and whistle………..
All the Best
Urban Phil
:-(
ps- talking about sheds with character, try these links: http://www.flickr.com/photos/22835312@N03/2515023628/in/set-72157605203188857
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22835312@N03/2463693709/in/set-72157604873804286
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22835312@N03/2464526150/in/set-72157604873804286
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22835312@N03/2934434382/in/set-72157607959645439
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Phil, those sheds are wonderful and I remember Lilo Lil!! ;D ;D
There are a few threads about committees on here if you have a search, and some are good and do a lot to help the plotters and some not so good which will make you feel better! ;)
There are also threads about sheds and someone has a wonderful one which I shall see if I can find.
Good luck
T.
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http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,44922.0.html
This is my dream shed, I hope Deb doesn't mind me linking to her thread. I would love one like this. I can dream....
T.
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Just hope your committee don't pull your shed down and then blame the vandals!
Good luck and welcome to A4A.
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Well done Phil! (And welcome....)
Most sites allow sheds, but most sites also regulate. (In our case, it's actually built into our lease with our landlords that permission must be sought.) But your committee's appeared to have overstepped the mark. I know you have to keep an eye on the place, but an outright ban? Really....!!
Have you thought of standing for committee? It seems they might do with some new blood.
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This is my dream shed, I hope Deb doesn't mind me linking to her thread. I would love one like this. I can dream....
Wow that is quite a shed - a fairytale shed!
And Urban Phil - I love those home-made shed photos - that's what I mean by a proper allotment shed!
My old allotment, which I've had to leave behind :( had a boring Wickes 6'x4', but my new garden has a rather weird ENORMOUS shed built out of cement blocks and chip board, with an old door and window from a house. It hasn't got much character, but it does have presence!
I should take a photo sometime when it's light.
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As a plot holder you have a right to voice on any topic arising at the meetings. Ask for valid reasons why you cant have sheds. Try one year probation period even to see how things go. Put the topic of Sheds on the agenda for the next meeting. Get plenty of plotholders there who would vote. Majority vote rules ;)
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well done for making a stand against stupid rules in your plotters guide it will tell you that yes you can have a shed ;D go and tell the committee to go and jump .
its not very big shed tho is it more like a loo ;D
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myself and the husband have been lucky enough to get to know phil and his good lady through an excellent flickr forum that they run,for liverpool allotmenteers,and we were invited to the inaugural opening of their ground breaking shed at harthill allotments.we applaud their pioneering spirit and am happy to report that other plotholders are thinking of following suit.im very pleased to read so much support for them within this thread
rach
xx
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Thanks Rach and to everybody for your support. It can be difficult to stand up for what you believe in especially when the ‘committee’ is doing everything in it’s power to isolate you using Chinese whispers and trying make you feel like an outcast simply because you have views different to them. It’s wrong, it’s bullying and smacks of playground politics. I have never liked bullies and I’m certainly NOT going to be intimidated by anybody. The only person I fear is my maker and that is it.
It’s heartening to find I’m not alone in my views. We deliberately found the smallest shed we could to build (ex-display) only cost us £70!! It’s the principle and symbolism that matters……..If they come and burn it down, so be it……..We’ll build another one and then another only bigger and better next time and we’ll add a greenhouse and anything else we can think of. We’ll never give in to these people……as long as I draw breath they will NEVER beat us!
We use to be called The Harthill Wartime Allotment Association but I will swear to god it was more peaceful down here in 1940………If you want a quiet life don’t get an allotment (lol)
All The Best
The Urban Gardener!
:-(
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Rules can be changed.I asked for a no chicken rule to be changed and it was.
I am glad we have not got a committee,some committee members can be a real pain,they have the brain of a flea.Others are on a power kick.The only area of life where they may have influence.
Obviously they are not all like that but I guarantee you will come across them.
Sadly in all walks of life ,where groups of people are concerned ,you will find
the ring leader and the sheep,people who are terrified to disagree ,in case they are not one of the group.Pathetic.
Stick to what you believe in and good luck. :)
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Betula you've just hit the nail right on the head........."The ring leader and the sheep" Spot on; People who are on a power trip and gang up on anybody who doesn’t agree with them and a ring leader who feeds the sheep on mushrooms, keeping people in the dark and s**ting on them!
Well I and others have been s**t on for far too long and “I’m as mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore”………Peter Finch from the film Network!
The thing is once they are in it’s very difficult to get them out……….If you go to the AGM’s they gang up on you and try to shout you down, they call it democracy and the majority vote but it’s not, it’s about keeping their power base and acting like a pack of wolves………an allotment committee is suppose to represent ALL allotment holders isn’t it? Well this committee doesn’t represent me and seems more interested in fighting against it’s own members and Liverpool City Council than improving the site or working in the interests of ordinary plot holders!
All the Best
Fidel Castro
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;D
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It's mind-boggling how much power people can get just by shouting louder than anyone else once they've got themselves some petty 'position'. Unfortunately voluntary organisations like allotment associations are vulnerable to this, so we all need to be on our guard!
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I find this extraordinary. I couldn't manage without my allotment shed, not least as a place to go for a brew in this cold weather. Some people have constructed amazing hacienda-like structures with verandas, using old doors, windows and tree branches. Someone has a look-out post which reminds me of the Alamo. It's an essential part of the character of the place.
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We are allowed "structures" on our site whether that be sheds or greenhouses or specially built areas for growing show plants etc.
I have 2 greenhouses and one shed......with space for another which I will get next year.
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if they burn it down mate let us no and i will come and give you a lift building another one , good lock fella and enjoy , i bet your walking round the lottie with a big ;D on your face i know i would be
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if they burn it down mate let us no and i will come and give you a lift building another one , good lock fella and enjoy , i bet your walking round the lottie with a big ;D on your face i know i would be
so supportive shaun,nice one ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I know how unreasonable the Harthill committee has been over many things, not just sheds, but I feel must say something in favour of committees in general, having just stood down from ours after 15 years, 14 as treasurer. It is a pretty thankless task, and very time consuming if done properly. People moan but don't want to do any of the work, we are lucky to get 10 at a working party out of nearly 140 members. The reason the petty Hitlers stay on committees is because no-one else will put the effort in. The only way to change things is to put yourself forward for election and be prepared to fight for your rights from the inside, but don't take it on if you can't spare time to share the chores, which I still do though no longer on the committee.
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It all depends on what is in the contract you sign either with a self managed site or council run !!
You sign that you agree to the terms and in our case that means no sheds, they do attract idiots and thieves, other sites in the area are always having breakins but we only have trouble once a year at pumpkin time !
We have a metal lock-up where tools can be stored and some have little tool stores but they MUST be under 1 meter high and they are checked, cant have one rule for one and hang the rest.
I go up the plot to work but we do have a bench to sit and chat on and we dont miss our shed (used to always have them on other sites). it can also make for a real eyesore if the sheds and not looked after.
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I cant imagine my allotment without a shed, it would'nt be right. Nothing better than fresh egg on toast and a cuppa on a cold morning. I have tomorrow off and intend ot go down and have a sort out. Cupa soup at the ready and copius amounts of tea. LOVERLY !!!!!!!!!!
On a different point, why should you not be allowed a shed just because some idiot may break in ? no difference to some idiot pulling up your veg. We still grow those though. Yet another case of the minority ruining it for everyone else. i think its just a stupid rule just there to give someone something to moan about.
Good on you, rules are meant to be challenged if they are wrong and ignored if they are stupid.
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Yes - rules are to be challenged - but no - not ignored! We can't just go around ignoring the rules we disagree with. (What if I disagreed with the rules about mugging old ladies, or breaking into people's houses?)
The committee is there to run the site in the best interests of the site and its members, past, present & future. If you, as a member, don't agree with a committee decision, then challenge it in the legal way - at an AGM - and get the committee to justify their decision.
We have two sets of ancient lockers. (Just repaired & painted by recent working parties.) But not enough for 80 members! (Many of our original plots are now split into 2 or even 3.) So we allow sheds. But our tenancy agreement with our landlord states that all requests for buildings must go to them; as they only meet twice a year, and don't really want to be bothered with the nitty-gritty detail, they have passed that responsibility to the committee. So we have to monitor buildings on their behalf, and stipulate that permission must be sought in writing.
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Yes - rules are to be challenged - but no - not ignored! We can't just go around ignoring the rules we disagree with. (What if I disagreed with the rules about mugging old ladies, or breaking into people's houses?)
Its a shed. No one is saying its ok to break the criminal law or anything. Its a shed. Thats all.
I just think these rules are stupid. I cant think of one good reason why this guy cant have a shed. If there is room and it doesnt infringe on someone else's plot. What the hay.
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I agree that - not knowing the site, the circumstances, the history, or any of the people involved - this rule about sheds seem plain daft.
My point was that you can't just go round breaking rules because you don't like them. (Not even daft ones like this!) There are sometimes - not always - good reasons for rules that are not immediately obvious. And if this rule gets broken illegally, then what's to stop someone else breaking another rule, and then another?
My point is: challenge the rule & the committee. If someone stands against the secretary the members can vote for whoever they prefer. If the majority of the members don't like the secretary's rules, he'll get voted out.
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Ok after being on sites with a shed and now on one without i can tell you that i would far rather have no sheds!!
On the old site it was comon for idiots to break into sheds and trash plots !!!
This site has very little in the way of break ins, sheds DO attract thiefs ! and morons and the stress of turning up to find your plot trashed and your tools stolen is enough for some people to give up their lottie which is a real shame :(
We had a polytunnel on the old site and found it had been slashed to pieces over night :'(
Fences and gates dont stop bored kids but prickly hedging helps ;D
We still have a cuppa and a bacon roll up the lottie on a little gas ring and if its raining we sit in the car or the office or go home ;D
If you cant live without a shed dont take a plot on a site that does not allow them !
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If you follow that line of thinking,the next thing will be a rule not allowing you to grow veg.These can get stolen or trashed.
The shed to me is a very important part of allotment life. :)
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I believe laws are to be broken and fortune favours the brave. I’m not saying that people should break rules for the sake of it but when something is intrinsically wrong and a ‘committee’ without going into details has continually broken its own constitution in order to enforce the unenforceable then something needs to be done. If throughout history people just towed the line and did as they were told we would be under the Nazi jackboot today.
Direct action is sometime needed, there are people out there who will continually try to erode your freedom and human rights and the only way to stop them is by fighting them!
Where the miners wrong to fight Margaret Thatcher and break the law to keep their jobs?
Where the people who took part in the Poll Tax Riots wrong when they broke the law and started fighting with the police in Trafalgar Square?
Some things are worth fighting for and if you have to break the rules to do it then so be it. I do have some sympathy for the argument that you have to fight things from the inside; this is perfectly right and proper if you’re dealing with rational and normal people but I personally have no wish to join the Nazi Party quite simply just to fight them!!!
I read an article with a recipe for making home made bombs from manure so I think I’ll don me tin hat, lock meself in me shed and prepare me ammunition…….I’m in for the long haul!
All the Best
Sergeant Mannering
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Some laws are for the benefit of the majority and its not always for the best to fight them ! ie drink driving, just because one person thinks its ok to drink and drive should we change the law ???
Why not find out WHY sheds are not allowed ???? maybe many have been burnt out ect and the fire service refused to attend any shed fires as was the case here or the sites insurance does not allow them there could be a good reason.
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I did find out WHY sheds where not allowed and the ‘good reason’ why! It was quite simply because the secretary didn’t want them!!
Liverpool City Council approached the ‘committee’ and asked them to give a valid reason why I shouldn’t have a shed……..they failed to do so and the City Council granted the application…….simple as that.
It’s not as if the site is situated in the middle of a housing estate or a ‘rough’ part of Liverpool. This is in the ‘middle-class’ under belly of Liverpool, Calderstones Park and although that’s no security, location can prove an important factor in these things.
Anyhow, I’m off to build me Christmas Air Raid Shelter, I expect to see a lot of dirty sods and manure bombs flying round this Xmas!
All the Best
Private Pike
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Don't tell um your name PIKE. :-X ;D ;D ;D
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If a rule is seriously stupid then I think it's right to break it. Otherwise, the petty hitlers eventually get their own way, by wearing everyone else down if nothing else. Once they make it the rule, then the rule's the rule until you break it or have a revolution. Breaking it is often easier, and it then puts pressure on the rule-makers to justify it. As long as you're not causing problems for other people, where's the harm?
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If a rule is seriously stupid then I think it's right to break it. Otherwise, the petty hitlers eventually get their own way, by wearing everyone else down if nothing else. Once they make it the rule, then the rule's the rule until you break it or have a revolution. Breaking it is often easier, and it then puts pressure on the rule-makers to justify it. As long as you're not causing problems for other people, where's the harm?
but but but,phil hasnt broken any rules,rather,he has bided by the rules laid down by liverpool city council,and got written approval for their shed.i agree with what you saying though robert.
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As a fellow allotment holder at Harthill it is great to see someone has put up a new shed. I agree Phil has not broken any rules and indeed he has gone though the correct procedure filling in the Council's standard application form. There is nothing in the site Constitution banning sheds!
Indeed there is precedent here. On the north end of the site is an old 'Anderson Shelter' corrugated iron shed erected at least twenty years ago.
Around the site are old concrete foundations once used for greenhouses etc. It is difficult to see how the site Committee could justify any as yet unspecified 'ban' given the historic and existing precedent.
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welcome to the site benchy,although im not a plotholder on your site,i follow this thread with great interest,as a plot holder and sec at sudley.great to hear your views and i hope you find this website as informative as i have!
if you havnt already,check out
http://www.flickr.com/groups/liverpool_allotments/
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Welcome Benchy and good luck to you and Phil with your future sheds, I know I certainly couldn't do without my shed and it's nice to see Elvis although not on the same site supporting you. ;D ;D ;D
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Welcome to the site Benchy.. :)
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Welcome Benchy and good luck to you and Phil with your future sheds, I know I certainly couldn't do without my shed and it's nice to see Elvis although not on the same site supporting you. ;D ;D ;D
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i assure you i certainly am on the same site giving my support,look at the photos of the shed opening!
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Sorry Elvis I misread your post I thought you were on a neighbouring site, I did see you in the photos, the shed represents the heart of your site, you could say its your Wooden Heart. ;D ;D ;D
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Sorry Elvis I misread your post I thought you were on a neighbouring site, I did see you in the photos, the shed represents the heart of your site, you could say its your Wooden Heart. ;D ;D ;D
and you are forgiven oh corny one! just to confuse you,i am on a different site,but am a buddy of the afore mentioned one
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I knew I was right all along, ;) it was nearly the first time I was wrong in 40 odd years. :o Keep up the good work and carry on shedding. ;D ;D ;D
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I knew I was right all along, ;) it was nearly the first time I was wrong in 40 odd years. :o Keep up the good work and carry on shedding. ;D ;D ;D
ill catch you out one of these days ;D ;D ;D
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Ha ha ha ;D ;D ;D
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Is your site run by allotment association - were you not given a copy of the rules.
Do you have an AGM - if so that is the place to change the rules, and possibly elect new members on to the commitee
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Hi John, and Welcome to our "Site". ;D