Allotments 4 All
Produce => Pests & Diseases => Topic started by: ceres on November 26, 2008, 10:49:17
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In the December issue of Gardeners' World magazine, there is a quarter page colour advert as follows:
nice picture of someone forking into a pile of manure
"Manure matters, so dig a little deeper!
Allotment holders and gardeners have been asking us about herbicide residues in manure. To help, we've created a special website where you can dig a little deeper to unearth the advice and information you need to fertilise your ground with confidence. So if you're thinking about manure, please visit:
www.manurematters.co.uk (http://www.manurematters.co.uk)
And please spread this news to your friends.
Dow Agrosciences"
Nice huh? Except the URL takes you to one of their website pages advertising their 'protection' products. Bit of a PR disaster I think.
And maybe I'm being cynical but I see this as one of the steps Dow is taking to get their product approval back in time for Spring spraying. If they have 'educated' gardeners about the the risk of aminopyralid in manure then they have fulfilled their obligations and it's our fault if we get hit?
But I've done as they asked and passed it on to my friends ;)
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Oh dear. And some (most) people would fall for it too.
They are positively EEEEEEEVIL >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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They are so full of s**t!!! >:(
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thanks for the post / info Ceres
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Ha ha! I emailed them after I read the advert and tried the URL. No reply. But the URL now links to a page that says:
"Manure Matters, so dig a little deeper!
Recently, we have heard from gardeners and allotment holders who have been concerned about possible herbicide residues in the manure and composts they apply to their soil. The active ingredient involved is called aminopyralid.
There have been a few incidences involving alleged damage to sensitive crops that have been reported here in the UK. The manure possibly came from farm animals or horses fed pasture or conserved forage from grassland previously treated with aminopyralid - an active ingredient found in the products Forefront, Pharaoh or Banish. This manure has unfortunately been supplied to a small number of gardeners and allotment holders and resulted in damage to some sensitive crops.
Manure, from horses or farm livestock, is a wonderful soil conditioner and natural fertiliser, and we do not want gardeners and allotment holders to be afraid of using it. This is why we have created the manurematters website - to provide guidance and advice for its future use. The website is still a few days from completion - we hope to be finished by the beginning of December....so bookmark the address WWW.MANUREMATTERS.CO.UK and please come back then."
(my italics)
So, will they fire the person who placed the advert, the person who linked the URL to a product marketing page for weedkiller or the person who didn't finish the new website on time? I wonder.........
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Posible -- may be related -- alleged -- some crops !!! >:(
Sounds like a politician !!
ceres, thank you for exposing this ' ploy ' -- what a load of sphericals !!
I am so cross [ can you tell ] whole allotments have been destroyed, we still don't know
for sure how long, I wont go near animal manure for a long time -- getting all my nutrients from green manure plus blood , fish and bone meal.
No , not me - the plot ! [ before I loose it ! ]
floss xxx
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Ceres,
Another informative post!
In the info. from 'AgroSciences' - 'a FEW incindences'.
Is that a laugh or an effing joke?
???
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They have a "contact" option. I for one will be contacting them to give them my two penny'worth of opinion on the skilful use of the English language. Maybe I'll wait till December and see what the rest of the site is.
Bit of an own goal, putting the advert in before the website is ready.
But I think they will be heavily promoting their own GM (?) "green" manures to use instead.
Whatever happens, there are going to be a lot of stables/farms who will be unable to get rid of their manure.
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Update:
"The website is nearing completion and we hope to have it live by the middle of December."
I'd been wondering when "the beginning of December" ended!
Marks out of 10?
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Well here we are bang on the middle of December....still no website though! Fancy that! ;) I guess they're busy making sure that the advert banners on it look all lovely.
This does look like a good contender for "Most Cynical PR Ploy By A Company Which Scored A Massive Own Goal 2008" (or 2009 if they don't get a move on)
I'm sticking with green manure, lottie compost and fish blood'n'bone.
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and leaves and grass clippings :)
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They have a "contact" option. I for one will be contacting them to give them my two penny'worth of opinion on the skilful use of the English language. Maybe I'll wait till December and see what the rest of the site is.
Bit of an own goal, putting the advert in before the website is ready.
But I think they will be heavily promoting their own GM (?) "green" manures to use instead.
Whatever happens, there are going to be a lot of stables/farms who will be unable to get rid of their manure.
I think we're being a bit harsh here.
What proportion of allotments have actually been adversely affected? It's small, even discounting those who don't use manure in the first place.
I think Dow responded rather well in the first instance, as soon as the aminopyralid issue became known.
The web page that manurematters.co.uk currently displays is poorly worded, and the tone is patronising, which shows poor judgment. But this sort of thing has almost certainly been entrusted to a junior web geek who doesn't know the difference between "incident" and "incidence". He or she probably doesn't know that the January issue of most magazines is published in December, which would explain why the advert came out ahead of the website.
I can't find any green manures, GM or otherwise, on Dow's product list. ??? Are they produced by an associated company?
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I wrote to Dow yesterday asking them, amongst other things, when the middle of December would be over. Checked the website this morning, nothing. Just got home and, hey presto, it's there!
Enjoy!
http://www.dowagro.com/uk/mark-up/index.htm (http://www.dowagro.com/uk/mark-up/index.htm)
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Ceres,
Has any survey been carried out to estimate the % of allotment/market garden/noted sites that have been affected by this herbicide?
This would challenge their view of 'Very few incidents of garden or allotment crop damage-----------'?
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What a load of PR !! "some reported instances" "possible damage" etc etc.........FUME FUME FUME FUME etc etc etc >:(
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Ceres,
Has any survey been carried out to estimate the % of allotment/market garden/noted sites that have been affected by this herbicide?
This would challenge their view of 'Very few incidents of garden or allotment crop damage-----------'?
Not that I know of. It was down to individuals to report what happened to them and those that could be bothered did, but there wasn't a single place/person to report to. Some told Dow, some the PSD, some DEFRA, some the RHS, some their MP............ I know that there were 12 people on my site affected but I was the only one that reported it, the rest thought that was enough. It's a bit like the 60 sheds break-in thread - few people CBA to take any action themselves. The last number I saw was from PSD who said they had received I think it was 75 reports. That was in answer to an MP's question in Parliament so the powers that be think that 75 gardeners were affected. Why would they worry about that? I think the problem has been massively under-reported.
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Sums it up really - 'Apathy?
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Or not knowing - I was talking to a chap a couple of months ago and told himthe contaminated manure story and he said he had had exactly those problems, was quite sure it was due to the manure but didn't know the back story so couldn't make the connection till I told him. I think it's only the tip of the iceberg.
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That's so true, asbean. Which is why the measures being taken by Dow to 'educate' us are completely inadequate. Which is the subject of my next round of letter-writing!
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Just a thought i had,
Iwas emptying some bags of horse manure thats been around a while, and noticed the the abundance of worms in the manure ,
What effect does this stuff have on the worms , or does it pass through like the animals .
The manure i was using was mixed with wood chip n sawdust type
bedding so not to worried.
mrf94
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That's a really good question, I don't recall seeing anything about earthworms so far. I've got the toxicology testing stuff that Dow published, so I'll dig it out and have a look.
If your manure dates from before 2006 it should be safe from aminopyralid because it wasn't on the market prior to 2006.
However, just because the manure is wood-chip or sawdust based DOESN'T mean it's safe. It's what the animals ate that matters, not what they were bedded on.
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Found it:
Aminopyralid is 'practically non-toxic' to earthworms. 'Practically non-toxic' is the US Environmental Protection Agency's least toxic category.
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Thanks
As i said twas just a thought, and there rare as you get to my age.
mrf94
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Time will tell I guess....its only been on the market for a couple of years or so, so the coming years will be the "true" litmus test on all our allotments.
I wanted to use manure for the first time this year, i definately wont now until we know for sure that its ok to use.
Just remind me how we all coped in the old days before "chemical companies"???
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Time will tell I guess....its only been on the market for a couple of years or so, so the coming years will be the "true" litmus test on all our allotments.
Time has told and some (rather a lot of us) have already had our allotments used a a 'litmus test' and suffered the consequences. You might want to try doing a search on the forum for 'aminopyralid' and then google it.
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I just sent them this
becuase im so angry at their site
Im writing to complain about the incorrect information have presented on this website
This year a large number of allotment holders and gardeners have had their soils made toxic and uncultivatable becuase of aminopyyraloid contamination.
A very large number proportion of us have been badly affected and your suggestion that this is a few gardeners and a few crops is false.
To say that veg grown on contaminated land are safe is a mis nomer becuase veg dont grow to harvest on aminopyraloid contaminated land, my father has been a dalia and tomatoe breeder and grower for fourty years. use of contaminated manure has lead to him losing more than 70 varieties most of which he has cultivated himslef this is serious and permenant damage.
my beds at home were also contaminated and 90% of all crops i used to grow were distorted and killed by the contamination.
I am one of many hundreds on allotments 4 all who have documented our problems with the pollution of organic sites with your chemicals and the unfettered spread of this which is still occuring due to the use of last years manure
It is about time you actually faced up to the scale of this issue, as it is and i refer to our recent posts on allotmets for all. we dont trust you, you missrepresent us you have damaged our plots and gardens and plant heritage for a significant number of years and you have possibly broken a thousand year chain of using manure to grow crops in an organic way.
it is just insult to injury for you now to be trying to gloss over the utter disaster of last year and I for one will not rest until you take responsibilty for the damage you have caused to a nation of gardeners.
Shame on you, you contiune to tarnish the reputation of agrisciences companies and fail to comprehend the deep love of our soils and horticultural heritage we have in the UK.
Disgusted and looking at bare soil where there should be fresh strong shoots becuase of your greed and lack of proper consideration.
Dr Kathryn Turner
fuming but sunloving x
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they have only registered .co.uk domain name - some bright spark may register the .com domain name and put the real truth behind the damage it is doing to allotment holders in the uk!!!!
Just a thought...... ;D
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That's a great letter sunloving. Do let us know if they reply. I remember reading at the time about the loss of your dad's dahlia collection. It's bad enough losing veg but a lifetime's work must be heartbreaking. :'(
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I have just taken delivery of manure that is 3 years old. I will not use it until next year as I have sufficient to last this growing season. By then all the aminopyralid should of dissolved into thin air.
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You'll need to keep turning it - it doesn't dissolve, it gets broken down by the bacteria in the soil, poor wormies.
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I have just taken delivery of manure that is 3 years old. I will not use it until next year as I have sufficient to last this growing season. By then all the aminopyralid should of dissolved into thin air.
kt
asbean is spot on. The aminopyraild isn't released from the plant material until the plant material has completely rotted away THEN it needs to be exposed to soil-based organisms to convert it into harmless compounds. If the manure sits in a stack with no exposure to the soil, the plant material will eventually rot away but the aminopyralid will be held in the stack and the effect is to concentrate the weedkiller. This is why the advice from the RHS, Dow etc is not to stack it.
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some bright spark may register the .com domain name and put the real truth behind the damage it is doing to allotment holders in the uk!!!!
Just a thought...... Grin
Send £25 and its yours. ;D
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some bright spark may register the .com domain name and put the real truth behind the damage it is doing to allotment holders in the uk!!!!
Just a thought...... Grin
Send £25 and its yours. ;D
went through my mind ;) ;) ;)
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who to? (the 25 quid that is)
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£25 to register the domain name www.manurematters.com for two years. Then the site needs to be hosted which will cost.
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too late its gone, obviously they are keeping a watch on the forum chat. :)
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So they have, the cheeky wotsits:
Whois Server Version 2.0
Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.
Domain Name: MANUREMATTERS.COM
Registrar: MARKMONITOR INC.
Whois Server: whois.markmonitor.com
Referral URL: http://www.markmonitor.com
Name Server: MANTDNSI1.DOW.COM
Name Server: TNNTDNSI1.DOW.COM
Name Server: TXNTDNSI1.DOW.COM
Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Status: clientTransferProhibited
Status: clientUpdateProhibited
Updated Date: 03-feb-2009
Creation Date: 03-feb-2009
Expiration Date: 03-feb-2011
>>> Last update of whois database: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 14:19:08 EST <<<
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Heres a suggestion - if you think you have been affected by aminopyralid contaminated manure then report it to the Pesticides Safety Directorate. You can contact PSD's Information Section: 01904 455775 by email on information@psd.hse.gsi.gov.uk or better still in writing to Information Section, PSD, Room 214 Mallard House, Kings Pool, 1-3 Peasholme Green, York, YO1 7PX, UK.
If you don't report it - they can't investigate it!
The PSD have been looking into the matter but they have had difficulty finding enough allotments to sample from who could say exactly where their manure had come from. This means that Dow can get away with claiming very few people have complained.... and only you can change that.
Have a look at the PSD website for their statements on the subject:
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/approvals.asp?id=2501
and
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2529
Power to the people, comrades!
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You've come to this very late 70fingers. That's all been done. If you search for aminopyralid on this forum you'll find all the threads going back to early last season. In addition to the formal reporting, a lot of individuals up and down the country have done press articles, radio and TV pieces, got MPs and MEPs involved etc. etc. If you Google aminopyralid and manure, you'll get a flavour of what happened.
The reason for this thread is because Dow have launched a charm offensive to persuade the PSD that they have 'educated' users of aminopyralid-based products and users of the resulting manure and that what happened last year won't happen again. www.manurematters.co.uk is the manure users' end of the charm offensive. We're not really convinced, I think.
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I know the issue has been discussed for some time - we became aware of it last summer. Notwithstanding that there may be people preparing their soil right now with contaminated manure that they have had sitting on their plot for a while. There will be stocks of aminopyralid left on farms and stables that were purchased before the withdrawal and which could (legally) still be used. I don't think we've seen that last of this problem for a while yet.
I would want to urge everyone who hasn't yet contacted the PSD with any adverse effects they can link to contaminated manure to do so. If we don't, then the charm offensive may just work!
And I'd also like to say thank you to everyone who has posted on the subject because it certainly gave us a heads up and has hopefully prevented us from having the problem.
It's never too late to stand up to the big guys and try and make them do the right thing :-)
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Dow aren't 'masquerading' as manurematters, they ARE manurematters. It's part of the trumpeted stewardship and education charm offensive they have mounted to try to get aminopyralid approval re-instated.
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When I mean masquarading I mean they are trying to give the impression that they think manure matters. Their logo on the website is something of a give away.
Its just that when they emailed me I was not immediately aware of the dow connection. But it was easy to see on which side of the fence the communication came from.
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Who is coming to see you and why?
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I don't want to see them. Cannot see the point. Just sent them some more pictures of sad looking beans.
I have just realized what this product is for. It is for horsey people who cannot be bothered to check their land for weeds and dig them up.
I strongly ohject to the fact you are publishing information that I put in a personal message.
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Testing manure
1. Thoroughly mix 1 part manure with 1 part multi-purpose compost in a clean bucket. Prepare enough to fill four 5-inch pots.
2. Fill another four clean pots solely with multi-purpose compost. These will be the untreated comparisons.
3. Place each of the pots in a separate saucer to prevent water from one pot reaching another.
4. Water the pots and leave to stand for 24 hours.
5. Plant each pot with four broad bean seeds.
6. Observe subsequent growth for a four-week period and note any ill effects in the pots containing the manure mix, such as cupped leaves and fernlike growth on new shoots.
Firstly, I wonder where they got this method from, and I suppose that proves teh test kit will be some pots and a few beans.
Note the bold bit, why would it matter? I thought Dow said aminophyralid would not spread in water.
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I thought When someone said that the test kit would be bean and a pot that this was a joke. I just could not believe it when I saw the website.
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Testing manure
1. Thoroughly mix 1 part manure with 1 part multi-purpose compost in a clean bucket. Prepare enough to fill four 5-inch pots.
2. Fill another four clean pots solely with multi-purpose compost. These will be the untreated comparisons.
3. Place each of the pots in a separate saucer to prevent water from one pot reaching another.
4. Water the pots and leave to stand for 24 hours.
5. Plant each pot with four broad bean seeds.
6. Observe subsequent growth for a four-week period and note any ill effects in the pots containing the manure mix, such as cupped leaves and fernlike growth on new shoots.
Firstly, I wonder where they got this method from, and I suppose that proves the test kit will be some pots and a few beans.
Note the bold bit, why would it matter? I thought Dow said aminophyralid would not spread in water.
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that advice has been on the web site for awhile now so i would hope that they have some other method of testing available.
if this is the only test available then they can come and collect the 8 tons of manure that i've got as i've tried the bean test a few times now and the results are the same ,twisted and deformed beans.
it would be nice if they actually replied to emails i've sent several now from 2 different accounts and have yet to recieve a reply >:(