Allotments 4 All
General => The Shed => Topic started by: pippy on September 08, 2008, 11:58:57
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I wondered what everyone thinks when the press keep rolling out experts telling us we need to eat less meat to reduce carbon footprints and be healthier? Meat is also getting more expensive and of course there are some nasty intensive production methods out there.
Personally I'm not a vegetarian but do have a healthy respect for meat and eat it 2, or maybe 3 times a week. I try to buy the best and most ethical choices on a limited family budget, and to use up any leftovers in soups, stews and pasta dishes. With small children I do worry about what protein they need and do resort to fish fingers and better quaility Chicken bite thingys for them from time to time.
What do you all do? Do people have hints and tips for using up leftovers and/or creating meals without meat?
Just wondered if we could all share thoughts and/or tips! Thanks!
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I like my meat - and as much as I love vegetables, I would never give up meat. I am one of those who will eat it but would find it extremely difficult to take it from the field and prepare it for the fridge - so I guess that makes me a not very nice persons...... :-X
twinkletoes
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I don't think so! I think you are probably totally sensible.
Here in the UK I think our farming is quite suited to producing meat, particularly pigs/sheep and of course chickens. And the manure gets used on the crops. I personally think we should eat less meat overall, but still eat it - it's just a matter of getting the balance right!
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Personally I think we should get rid of a few of these people telling us what to do. The amount of hot air they produce and oxygen that they pointlessly consume must be doing untold environmental damage. Just my 2p!!!
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...and it was very well spent Ollie ;D
twinkletoes
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It's the nanny state again >:( >:( >:(
I resent being told how much/how little I should be eating/drinking by faceless goons who have no idea how much/how little I'm eating/drinking in the first place.
Grrrrrr >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Wonder if they're putting their knife and fork where their mouth is? :-\
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I love my meat and would not even consider giving it up would even kill it my self
if i had to used to eat some of the rabbits i bred when i was quite young.
no matter what we do will not stop global warming happening this is only another way of governments to make money and try to controll the population the only thing i am prepared to do is compost and that's it.
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The last time I was over in the US visiting my sister I had three big 'T' bones in less than a week so that puts me in the pig category when it comes to meat, but not such a red meat eater these days prefare mi fish :)
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It's the nanny state again >:( >:( >:(
I resent being told how much/how little I should be eating/drinking by faceless goons who have no idea how much/how little I'm eating/drinking in the first place.
Grrrrrr >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
This is not a nanny state thing - that is where they tell you what is and what isn't good for you. This is an environmental thing. I am not going to get on my soap box but the meat is an inefficient food, resources input to output wise, and the meat industry causes a lot of environmental damage - air pollution, watercourse pollution due to the types of feed etc.
That is all I shall say on the matter. It is up to everyone else to find out if they want and to make their own minds up.
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It's nanny someone - interfering *fatherless children* trying to tell other people how to live. If you don't like how I live, fine, don't live like me. We live in a free society, so how come it doesn't feel like it when these busy bodies continuously tell us what we should & shouldn't do.
And I just might climb onto my soapbox if I hear anyone else suggest that eating meat is a moral decision. It's only a moral decision if you opt out. I choose not to.
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Humans are omnivores. They need protein, which is available from meat, therefore we do not need to become vegetarian. Everything in moderation, I believe the saying is.
My point was that I and my family buy our meat from organic farmers that we know and trust, not prepackaged and sold as british just because it was packed in this country. We plan our meals two weeks in advance to make sure we have a varied diet (and that means not eating meat every day); nothing is wasted. We cook all our meals from scratch, so have virtually no packaging to dispose of. We recycle everything we can, compost everything that can be composted, the house is insulated to an inch of its life - WHAT MORE DO THE B******S WANT US TO DO ??? ???
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- WHAT MORE DO THE B******S WANT US TO DO ??? ???
Die before you collect your pension & so they can also clear up on their percentage of Inheritance Tax?
;D
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Humans are omnivores. They need protein, which is available from meat, therefore we do not need to become vegetarian.
And who am i to argue with millions of years of evolution.
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It's kicking off, Pru...
Who says Humans are omnivores? We have adopted an omnivorous diet because it's easy and tasty, but we're not omnivores, our digestive systems are designed for nuts, fruit, veg and berry type stuff (see lowland gorilla whose digestive tract is identical - he may eat the odd mouse if he accidentally sits on it, but otherwise is vegetarian). As for protein, as adults we need very little, no more than 5% tops, it is needed for growth and repair. Mother's milk has highest proportion of protein, as you'd expect, but still only 7% and you'll never need more than that. Meat has 25% to 35% and our body can't store the excess, passing through our 25ft gut (carnivore 6ft gut, omnivore such as a goat has 8ft gut) this excess putrifies which explains, in my view, why modern houses are built with two or three bathrooms.
I hope this clears this up.
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It's kicking off, Pru...
Who says Humans are omnivores? We have adopted an omnivorous diet because it's easy and tasty, but we're not omnivores, our digestive systems are designed for nuts, fruit, veg and berry type stuff (see lowland gorilla whose digestive tract is identical - he may eat the odd mouse if he accidentally sits on it, but otherwise is vegetarian). As for protein, as adults we need very little, no more than 5% tops, it is needed for growth and repair. Mother's milk has highest proportion of protein, as you'd expect, but still only 7% and you'll never need more than that. Meat has 25% to 35% and our body can't store the excess, passing through our 25ft gut (carnivore 6ft gut, omnivore such as a goat has 8ft gut) this excess putrifies which explains, in my view, why modern houses are built with two or three bathrooms.
I hope this clears this up.
Sorry, but a lot of that is absolute twaddle. A goat has mulitple compartments in its 'stomach' (omasum, abomasum, rumen, reticulum, just like other ruminant HERBIVORES (cow, sheep etc). This makes it perfectly designed to survive on vegetation only. In design, our gastro-intestinal tract is actually closer to a carnivore's than a herbivore's although it's well accepted that we are actually OMNIVORES, but that provided the diet is balanced correctly we can also survive on a herbivorous diet (just because we can survive happily on it, does not mean that that is what we have evolved to eat at the exclusion of meat).
Yes, it is also true that we can eat too much meat (particularly red meat), however as with everything, moderation is the key.
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with the amount of methane a cow can produce, i feel it is my job to eat as much steak as possible.
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I personally think that this is being blown out of proportion. I think the majority of people on this site are educated in that a varied diet containing meat vegetables fish eggs and more vegetables is sensible.
Out there in the wider world there are people who have no education and think that a balanced diet is a MacDonalds and milkshake! There is enormous ignorance out there, partly due to parents not passing on information and the expansion of the ready made meals and supermarket meat counters which make meat and ready meals more affordable, easier and "they taste nice!"
There is a large section of the population who are hugely overweight through ignorance and the availability of fast food with a high meat content.
I do agree that if you enjoy meat - go ahead enjoy it - but in slightly smaller portions and possibly less times a week. I used to expect meat at most meals sometimes twice a day. I now eat meat maybe once a week, certainly I am fitter than before.
I think that this message is aimed at the people like the ignorant parents that were feeding their children fish and chips and McConalds through the school railings rather than let them eat the healthy food that the school were trying to produce. Ignorance if left unchecked runs from generation to generation unless someone steps in to try to educate these people!
Some people do not know what vegetables are! Isn't that incredible! They walk past them in the supermarkets - possibly buy bananas and potatoes - but that is about it and don't have a clue what the green things are! It is these people that need educating not necessarily people like you lot on this site that know the advantages of a mixed diet!
Enough said - I am sure to have upset some!
O B
;D
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If god didnt want us to eat meat he wouldnt have made it taste so good!! :P
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Still think you lot are missing the point - the advice concerned the health of the environment and thus effects everybody else on the planet. Not whether you lot are going to be obese or suffer from colon cancer.
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If it was not for ya ancestor's leaving the forest and a diet of fruit and nuts, and becoming omnivores by hunting for meat on the savannah you would probably still be siting on a log scratching ya arse waiting for the figs to ripen.Hunting required a bigger brain which was very energy-hungry and needed plenty of high-protein foods like meat,which in turn required greater intelligence to gather. So as i said before who am i to argue with evolution.
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Fair comment Redclanger!
Old Bird
;D
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If god didnt want us to eat meat he wouldnt have made it taste so good!! :P
Look what eating apples did to Adam and Eve :o :o :o :o :o
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I eat meat - not every day mind you. At one point we (wife & I) ate no meat (including fish) at all (for about 7 - 8 years). During that period we had our children (I mean they were born during that period - we didn't eat them!) and we all ate the same food. There didn't seem to me to be any detrimental effects on any of us.
One thing though, a vast amount of our land in the UK is not really suitable for growing anything other than grass - and we can't eat grass in any great quantity - or we'd be net contributors to methane production too - mind you that could save a bit on central heating! So by getting sheep and cows to process the grass for us (and making it so much tastier in the process) we can make use of land that would otherwise be left to run to weeds.
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We are eating a lot less meat as we have found the older we are getting ,the harder it is to digest.
I understand what you are saying redclanger :)
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I agree strongly with Redclanger that this is not a nanny state thing. It's quite legitimate for government and its agencies to issue advice and guidance on things that have a significant impact people's health as well as the global environment. This is not the same as interfering with our freedom of choice and dictating what we can and cannot eat.
Having said that, there are few things to beat juicy lamb chops braised on a delicious bed of home grown veg, or Cumberland or Lincolnshire sausages with home grown spuds and beans. In moderation, of course!
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Doing my bit tonight - its cabbage and pasta bake - have warned the OH in advance!
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Thank you Oakmore 2 for pointing out that a goat is not an omnivore but a ruminant. My mistake. Please substitute a pig or a rat as true omnivores. Your assertion that we are more akin to carnivores is baffling however, carnivores thrive on an extreme Atkins diet, if we try to do same we lose weight and get ill - ie not healthy for us. And whoever said that were it not for hunting and meat eating we'd still be sitting on a log waiting for the figs to ripen - very true, meat eating has served us well in the past but as usual we've taken it too far and those days are now gone.
Reading the other posts it seems agreed that, in the matter of meat consumption, moderation is the key. What is moderation though? I would suggest that no more one portion of meat and one of fish per week is what is required to keep us, animals, agriculture and the planet in general all much happier
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I am a meat eater although I agree that everything in moderation is wise,you only have to look at our teeth (Cannines) to see that this is true
all 3 of my children were vegies (1 changed when he moved to the USA)
I am cutting down meat a lot as the price goes up,would like the greenest but cannot afford to as I am on a basic wage
what makes me angry about this nanny state is that in my opinion sugar ought to carry a health warning! I cut out all visible sugar to lose 3st and now only have to eat the sweet things I used to love before I start being hooked and feeling ill,that is the cause of most of the explosion of fatties and maybe behaviour problems!
marg
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Your assertion that we are more akin to carnivores is baffling however, carnivores thrive on an extreme Atkins diet, if we try to do same we lose weight and get ill - ie not healthy for us.
It is clear from the anatomy of our gastro-intestinal tract that we have more in common with carnivores than herbivores. I never said that we thrive on an Atkins diet - I simply stated that we are omnivores, and that whilst we can survive on a herbivorous diet, our gastrointestinal tract is testament to the fact that we evolved to be omnivores.
Reading the other posts it seems agreed that, in the matter of meat consumption, moderation is the key. What is moderation though? I would suggest that no more one portion of meat and one of fish per week is what is required to keep us, animals, agriculture and the planet in general all much happier
Totally agree with this Isbister, I think this is a really sensible approach to achieving moderation in our diets.
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Just cooked spicy potato curry from Sawfish 10 Feb, 2007 from Recipes4All. I also have beef stew in the oven for OH (who thinks veggie food will poison him) as I have a Committee meeting tonight. (I bet he will try the curry whilst I am out). The veg. curry was for my daughter tomorrow but it tastes and smells so good that I think I will eat it now with nan bread. Thank you Sawfish if you are still on site. I think meat every other day is fine, but a lot of people do seem to eat too much. If I have a lamb curry I love the gravy and a little meat with loads of rice and spinach. I think women (ladies) are much more inclined to eat salad, veggie meals but if cooking for man (men) they have a strop if not served meat. I used to do match suppers and the ladies were easy but the mens matches wouldn't have salad and wanted meat pies etc.
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I think women (ladies) are much more inclined to eat salad, veggie meals but if cooking for man (men) they have a strop if not served meat. I used to do match suppers and the ladies were easy but the mens matches wouldn't have salad and wanted meat pies etc.
Just for the record, I am very much a testosterone fuelled man (5 o'clock shadow by noon) and have been a healthy vegetarian (bar one drunken bacon sarnie aged 20) for the past 20 years ;D Wish I could permanently give up smoking though! >:(
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Great, let's hear from all the male veggies. I have had many arguments with OH about how unhealthy it is not to eat meat. I must confess I smoke, would find it easier to give up meat than ciggies. Oh well we can't all be perfect.
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.... As for protein, as adults we need very little, no more than 5% tops, it is needed for growth and repair. Mother's milk has highest proportion of protein, as you'd expect, but still only 7% and you'll never need more than that. Meat has 25% to 35% ...
I hope this clears this up.
I realise that you're probably exaggerating for effect, but I'll just point out that the official NHS and DEFRA approved range (AMDR) is 10% to 35% of kCals intake. 5% would be damagingly low in the medium to long term.
And vegetarians need more protein because plant proteins aren't balanced in a digestible way. So actually, meat protein is more readily digestible than plant protein (although of course arranging meals to contain complementary proteins helps).
And from the USDA database, I see that stewed chicken contains about 50% protein (% of kCals), braised pork chops around 45%, and grilled lean beef up to 60%. Most fish are well over 80%. But sadly for your argument, we have egg white at around 90%, watercress 84%, asparagus 65%, beansprouts and shoots typically 50% to 60%, mushrooms 55%, (in fact the vast majority of vegetables are over your magic 5%), tofu 40-45%, most nuts over 10%, porridge at nearly 20%, rhubarb 17%, melons, apricots, loganberries and many others well over 10%.
So luckily it's quite difficult to eat less than 10% of your kCals as protein. ;D
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I agree with eating less red meat but I do enjoy a freshly necked free range chicken/cockeral(off my mate) and Fish, but the number of Scroats I see making their way to Uncle Rolands to stuff their faces with whatever they serve up in there makes me puke, there is nothing better than fresh Mackeral straight from the sea and served up within a couple of hours, I'm getting hungry :P
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Be thankful you live somewhere where you can choose what you eat and argue over minutiae like protein percentages. It's not always been like this and it won't always be like it either.
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I would suggest that no more one portion of meat and one of fish per week is what is required to keep us, animals, agriculture and the planet in general all much happier
So me eating less meat will save the planet :o......explain how that works then ???.
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I too eat meat, although like most people, it is the usual supermarket packs of prepared stuff. I enjoy the odd vegetarian meal too and would certainly have to become one if I had to do my own slaughtering.
I found an interesting article about meat though. It seems some one has tested the fat from animals who have only been grazed for generations. What we would call totally naturally reared as opposed to animals who have been bred for farming and fed commercial feed stuff.
In Brief, the difference found was in the cholesterol levels, the naturally reared and fed animal's fat did not produce any problems with cholesterol unlike commercially produced animal's fat does.
Sadly, they also said that the healthier meat costs something like £70 a kilo to produce and that there was not sufficient grazing land to produce enough for every one (although at £70 a kilo that would be self governing)
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The mass availability of a huge diversity of prime cuts of meat is a relatively modern phenomenon which has taken place certainly within my lifetime and probably coinciding with the growth of foreign travel and the arrival of the supermarket. The vast majority of people ate very little meat and what they did was spread over far more meals. We have become greedy and self-indulgent in our eating - and drinking - habits and pay the consequences of illness and obesity. But the mass farming of living things is contributing to destroying the planet. We need to eat less meat and if we do eat it, to be prepared to pay dearly for it.
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Just my tuppence worth. ;D
Vegetarians aren't necessarily weedy & sickly. I've been veggie for 20 yrs; I am the same dress size as when I was at school; I am not, nor ever have been, anaemic (even when suffering from heavy periods... sorry to the squeamish).
Because I am fit & active, I have muscles on my muscles ... so meat is not necessary for physical strength or muscle development. Did anyone see the recent TV programme about that nice boy who cycled the world? He was a vegetarian (and a fine figure of a man too).
Protein is provided in most foods, esp. eggs, dairy, beans and pulses, nuts, seeds and soya products. You don't need as much protein as you think you do, and although vegetarian protein is thought to be not a "complete" protein, if you combine your ingredients (like grain with a pulse ~ beans on toast), you will be getting all the protein you need. see here for more info: http://www.vegsoc.org/info/protein.html
Meat is a very inefficient way to feed a population. It takes a hell of a lot of grain/cereal to feed a cow ~ a waste of grain that could be used to feed people instead of cows. The world's population is exploding; how and what are all those extra babies going to eat? The developing world is getting a taste for a Western diet, ie more meat. This isn't sustainable. There aren't enough resources for all those people, let alone all those extra farm animals.
Even if you don't give a fig for the developing world, have a thought towards your own health, and your pocket. Meat is expensive, and getting more so. Why not use it more as a garnish than a main part of the meal? For instance, have a chilli con carne, but substitute half the meat for soya mince or lentils (you probably won't notice: I served chilli for 50 last month, and nobody guessed there was soya & lentils in it).
You don't need to become a vegetarian, but you could reduce the amount of meat you eat. You won't be less of a man for it!
The advice (on diet) is put out there for you to take or leave, but at least give it consideration before closing your mind, putting your fingers in your ears and going "la, la, la I'm not listening"
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The advice (on diet) is put out there for you to take or leave, but at least give it consideration before closing your mind, putting your fingers in your ears and going "la, la, la I'm not listening"
A serious question, if I may.
Anyone who thinks about such things at all will already have considered your arguments. They are well-publicised enough for most of us to be heartily sick of the repetition.
So having given them due consideration, and come to a conclusion, why should we consider them yet again? It does rather look as if the true agenda is to keep evangelising until we all lose the will to live.
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I would suggest that no more one portion of meat and one of fish per week is what is required to keep us, animals, agriculture and the planet in general all much happier
So me eating less meat will save the planet :o......explain how that works then ???.
Still none the wiser ???.
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Froglegs - please google "meat eating + environment" for many answers to your question. Also do the same on youtube. Please tell us what you find out.
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I don't understand... if froglegs gives up meat, global warming will stop? It's all froggie's fault ???
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due to health concerns and cholesterol probs, my meat portion is now the size of a cassette case, trouble is, when we go out, even children's portions are larger than that and I have to leave some...I've started to have fish and chicken more often :)
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i hardly ever eat red meat but when I do... boy do I love it! A leg of lamb is to die for (specially for the lamb :o :o) and steak is seldom eaten but much enjoyed when I do! but on the rare occasions I do eat red meat I buy it from the local farm where I can see the sheep grazing and stroke the cows' ears and I know they have a good life while they are alive because they're friendly responsive beasts. They cost the earth so we eat them maybe once every 2 or 3 months? I'll buy half a lamb and it will last the family a year or even more. Organic pork grown locally I can't afford, I don't know of a local producer of organic chickens or organic eggs, so i get them at the supermarket. Fish I buy from a number of excellent fishmongers in Edinburgh: I choose wild rather than farmed so I don't buy it that often. The cost is astronomical.
So what I'm saying really is that I take on board the needs of the planet but also think meat is great but we need to limit the production.
Let's get rid of the factory farming and eat much less of the organic free range and wild products and more grains and veg. At the moment the whole thing is profit driven. That's what needs to change.
In fact we should probably eat less of everything!!
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Spot on grawrc about what needs to change. Fat chance though.
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I've been thinking about this :o
I think we, personally, are spoiled now,when I was younger ::) ::)
we had chicken on special occasions, my mum made stews and soups with loads of veg and very little meat, we had no central heating and had to walk everywhere,
I'm thankful it's not the same now but wonder if kids are getting a better or worse upbringing by having too much of everything, what do you think or am I turning into an old woman ?
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I agree, my favourite was coming home from school for dinner on a Monday and having bone stew. My mother never had a car so we walked or cycled everywhere. Dad loved gardening, so I suppose I take after them both as I walk or cycle to my allotment. Off to the Italian lakes with the Ramblers for a walking holiday on Saturday so expect will have loads of lovely pasta. I think most people eat too much, growing children can eat and eat but when you get older don't need so much food. I can never eat a starter, main course and pudding. My OH says 'whats for sweet sweetie', every day, which is really annoying and it is always yoghurt or fruit, and help yourself time. I know I am getting old as keep writing letters of complaint to building societies when the computer says 'no' it is your money but you have to wait to get it.
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I have only read this page of the thread but it has left me thinking how on earth can I fit any meat on my plate with all of this bloody veg we have grown.
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Christmas dinner lastyear we had seven different veg on the table - all home grown. Don't think we'll manage that this year, though. :( :(
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Froglegs - please go ogle "meat eating + environment" for many answers to your question. Also do the same on youtube. Please tell us what you find out.
OK had a look and this is what i found.
It would not make a jot, if i stopped eating meat,as animals are not just farmed for meat but for dairy products,(dairy cows a major source of methane)Eggs,Wool and Leather,ask the world to go Vegan....i don't think so.
If the governments were serious about saving the planet they would wipe out third world debt, so they no longer have to export cheap meat but feed themselves.Make all the fastfood chains more responsible for where and how the meat is produced.Ban floodlit buildings,Xmas lights and have less street lighting etc etc,have more wind and solar power made more affordable to be installed in the home.But as we all know Governments only support green issues when there is good money to be made.
So as I've said before who am i to argue with evolution.
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As I said to my DD who is veggie cuz she loves animals too much to eat them-
if we all went veggie we would have to kill all the animals roaming around wild cuz they would be eating all our food! it would be there lives or ours
marg
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Was having this discussion at work last night and one of the chaps had read somewere that the only way to truly save the planet is to reduce the population to pre Victorian level, and for people world wide to return to a pre industrial age.
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You don't work with Robert Mugabe do you? He apparently said Zimbabwe will be alright when we've halved the population. Had a good go at it as well.
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You don't work with Robert Mugabe do you? He apparently said Zimbabwe will be alright when we've halved the population. Had a good go at it as well.
Er... no
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Was having this discussion at work last night and one of the chaps had read somewere that the only way to truly save the planet is to reduce the population to pre Victorian level, and for people world wide to return to a pre industrial age.
Make a good TV program.......or as it been done already ;D
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last night we ate at a vegetarian friend's house and the joke of the evening paper was:
"I'm a pescatarian. That's a person who only eats fish."
"But, I'm NOT an orthodox pescatiarian because I also eat beef and pork and chicken."
We're eating half the amount of meat we used to and aren't suffering.
A taste is good enough.
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Apologies if this has been covered and I missed it, but isn't the issue less about individual behaviour than social behaviour? And it's not about 'nanny state' but about sustainable planetary development?
If several hundred million Chinese people think that getting richer means adopting a diet with a higher meat content,
a. meat prices (globally) will rise
b. virgin forest will be cleared to increase the stock of grazing land (bye-bye rain Amazonia)
c. thousands more cows ( for those millions of extra beef chow meins) will fart thousands more gallons of methane.
This is not about Nu Labour (or New Tories either) stopping us scoffing mechanically recovered meat slurry for the good of our personal health. try scaling it up to planetary level!