Allotments 4 All
Produce => Pests & Diseases => Topic started by: ceres on June 17, 2008, 22:41:01
-
After getting a name yesterday for the likely culprit weedkiller, I spent last evening googling it and found that this is a nationwide issue. Every gardening/allotmenting website/forum has a current thread with people all over the country discussing their experience with this problem.
It is the legal responsibility of the grower of the cereal crop that has been sprayed to make anyone he sells it to aware that it has been sprayed and that it cannot be used for manure/composting. Clearly, this isn't happening but no-one knows it isn't happening.
If you have been affected, please consider emailing these addresses and telling them:
gardeningadvice@rhs.org.uk - Royal Horticultural Society - put 'Dodgy Muck' in the subject line
information@psd.hse.gsi.gov.uk - Pesticides Safety Directorate
planthealth.info@defra.gsi.gov.uk - Plant Health Inspectorate
natsoc@nsalg.org.uk - National Society of Allotments and Leisure Gardeners
ukhotline@dow.com - Dow AgroSciences hotline for aminopyralid and related weedkiller contamination issues
www.writetothem.com (http://www.writetothem.com) - Your MP
-
Thanks for all those links, Ceres. Haven't heard of any issues in my locale ( east norfolk), but I am studying at an Hortic/Agric college, and will make enquiries there. Does long term composting and bio-remediation sort the problem out? rgds, Tony
-
Well done for your work in identifying the culprit(s) Ceres. We're warning all our members via the newsletter not to use anything other than well-rotted manure, and not to use it all on sensitive crops like potatoes, tomatoes, peas & beans. We've also told them to report all incidents, so that we can inform DEFRA & PSD. We are taking the matter up with Dow AgroSciences & our MP, Nick Hurd.
-
Thanks Tony. I think this is a bit of a hidden scandal so it needs everyone to start talking about it. The weedkiller is contained in the hay which has been eaten and excreted by the horses/cattle It will be broken down by organisms in the soil but this is expected to take around 2 years, which is consistent with Trevor's experience at his site. No-one has yet come up with any active bioremediation measures for us to take but I intend asking Dow about this.
That's great Trevor, do let us know if you get any feedback from reporting the incidents.
-
Likewise thanks for your efforts regarding this matter, maybe a topic should be started on this site just to collate information and see where in the UK and how many lotties are experiencing this problem...Just a thought.
Cheers
Tony
-
The RHS has updated it's website with a news article:
http://www.rhs.org.uk/news/Weedkiller-manure.asp (http://www.rhs.org.uk/news/Weedkiller-manure.asp)
-
And the Pesticides Safety Directorate have issued their Regulatory Update:
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2465 (http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2465)
-
I would have thought this should have been an issue for the National Press to take up, it is an utter disgrace.
Thanks for all your hard work Ceres for getting all the information together.
Sinbad
-
Good work Ceres. One thing puzzles me isthat both sites only talk of the chemical passing through the animals. Isn't it just as likely that contaminated bedding material (that gets swept up and composted with the manure) is to blame?
-
The chap at the Pesticides Safety Directorate said that aminopyralid is only sprayed on cereal crops - I imagine that's a licence restriction - so he implied it has to be feed rather than bedding.
-
Straw obviously comes from cereal crops, but if it's that, then the problem would only apply to manure from animals bedded on straw.
-
Too add to this thread:
Lincs Echo Article (http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=156153&command=displayContent&sourceNode=156136&contentPK=20884987&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch)
Letter in response (http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=156153&command=displayContent&sourceNode=156136&contentPK=20942274&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch)
-
Thanks redclanger. Word is getting out.
I was interviewed and photographed this week for a piece in the Observer today. Here is the online version - haven't seen the actual paper yet:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/29/food.agriculture (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/29/food.agriculture)
And here is the journalist's blog on the issue:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/food/2008/06/mutant_vegetables_whos_to_blam.html (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/food/2008/06/mutant_vegetables_whos_to_blam.html)
I hope that a lot of people post comments on the blog.
-
Just seen the article. They've done you proud, Ceres - a 2-page spread, no less.
How many others on this forum have been effected? Post in and let us know. And - even more important - let the RHS, Pesticides Safety Directorate, the Observer and Dow Agroscience know!
I've already had a response from Dow - within hours of my e-mailing them. They were rather worried, and wanted to know where I'd found the information about aminopyralid & its longetivity in plants. My answer was simply that I'd been told by both the RHS & Defra and that the information was freely available via the internet, including a press release from Dow earlier this year high-lighting the very problems we are now suffering from.
From what Ceres has found - and from what I've read myself - it seems that there has been a bit of a cover-up going on....
-
Well done Ceres for getting this problem out there and noticed. I for one will not be using any manure on my plot now, no matter how well rotted. Instead I think I will use green manure. I hope you get some good luck soon and well done again. :)
-
Just got back from watering and seen the paper - amazed they gave it so much space.
As Trevor says, PLEASE if you have been affected contact all of the bodies mentioned. This won't be stopped unless the scale of the problem becomes too big for them to ignore.
And even if you haven't been affected post your thoughts on the subject as a gardener on the Observer blog.
Thanks posie, all the support and information here has been so helpful.
-
Well my colleague at work has been asking my advice relating to her tomato crop failure, now I can see exactly what the problem is.
I wonder what affect it would have on bindweed.
-
Sorry to hear about your colleagues toms. Bindweed isn't one of the listed target weeds but I wouldn't recommend testing it.
-
Sorry to hear about your colleagues toms. Bindweed isn't one of the listed target weeds but I wouldn't recommend testing it.
Never mind I'll just press on with yanking out the six species of bindweed I have identified on my plot.
-
Hi,
Just to let everyone know lots of us out there have been lobbying everyone that we can think of to get this made public for about a fortnight now.
I have been collating lots of information on our allotments site website which only today has had over 200 hits. http://www.glallotments.btik.com/p_Contaminated_Manure.ikml
I've posted lots of information here some direct from the RHS or the manufacturers of the chmicals involved.
In order to get this in the public domain it has needed every one of us to do our bit, SEveral forums that I am a member of have had people ferretting away for information.
-
This is awful. I'm sticking to homemade compost from now on.
-
Hi GL, good to see you over here. Read your site's blog and comments on the Observer blog. A4A members here have been ferreting and lobbying away too - you're right, we need everyone shouting very loud to get this stopped. There is another thread here on the same subject you may want to read:
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=42629 (http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=42629)
-
Hi Ceres,
Visited it thanks - interesting isn't it that we all seem to have been given the same run around.
Can't remember whether you mentioned in your forum writing to MEPs and as much of the media as possible.
I have but so far not much of a response maybe things will liven up now and we can get some action.
-
I've got a growing list of people/organisations I'm writing to. I'll be posting updates here assuming we get any of course. I'll keep an eye on your website and let me know if there is anything you think any of us can contribute to.
-
I've popped links to all the forums that have useful threads about this subject on the web page so we can know what is going on elsewhere.
Mainly forums that are trying to be objective and not sensational.
I have emailed the Pesticide Awareness Network and they have responded to say they are looking in to the problem.
-
I am an allotment holder at the Serpentine 2 allotments Blackpool Road Preston.
Myself and several others have been affected with the fern like growth on potato's, tomato's, runner and broad beans .
Strangely though it hasn't affected every plant, potato's especially the odd plant looks healthy while others around them are curled up, second earlies have all gone and the main crop is hit and miss.
We have been talking about this for a few weeks now and was wondering if it was the manure or the recent increase in the flights from Blackpool airport as the take off flight path is over the allotments.
As others all over the country have had plants affected in this way I feel that we have been sold dodgy manure.
I used manure delivered last year and it looked well rotted.
I will be asking some questions and adding my name to the various authorities.
Ron
-
Hi Ron and welcome. Sorry to hear of your problem. We looked hard at other possibilities too but the common factor was all affected plots used manure from the same source. We had confirmation that hormone weedkiller is the cause based on our photographs by the RHS at Wisley and by the Pesticides Safety Directorate and we took plants to Wisley. Trevor_D here had a visit from DEFRA last year which also confirmed hormone wedkiller as the culprit. So there is no doubt in my mind as to the cause. Because the herbicide is so persistent, even well-rotted manure may still be contaminated. The weedkiller apparently binds to the lignin in the straw and is not fully broken down by soil organisms until the straw has completely broken down.
It would be helpful to the cause if you and your fellow plotholders can all make your problem known to all the relevant organisations and maybe we can stop this happening.
-
Thanks Ceres I will be contacting all those affected by this and probably getting a name list and send notification to all who need to know.
Thanks
Ron
-
It certainly is persistent!
We have a stables on-site, so all of the manure we use comes from their heap. They rent several nearby fields for grazing. They spray annually and then harvest the grass to keep the horses fed during the winter. (They are just finishing off now.) We had a long discussion with them yesterday and they confirmed that the spray they use is not Forefront or Milestone, the suspect ones containing aminopyralid. They also buy in feed, and they have been assured by their supplier that they don't use these sprays either.
But the stuff's getting in there somewhere! How far back in the chain do we have to go? It's virtually impossible to find out.
This year's outbreak has been quite mild and very sporadic. But last year's was widespread and - to some plot-holders, at least - devastating.
-
Ron,
On our plot we have potatoes right next to one another where some show signs and others don't - this isn't unusual.
[/quote]
-
Trevor,
What about the bedding used for horses as that can be a source too? We were told that our manure could have been used in 2006. When stored in a heap it can take several years for the herbicide to break down. Manure at the bottom of a heap can also have more concntration of residue.
A disturbing feature in emails that I have recieved today is the suspicion that bagged products are causing the same symptoms. see http://www.glallotments.btik.com/p_Victims_of_Contaminated_Manure.ikml
-
Sorry to be a latecomer to the party but I have been following these topics with great interest. As one of the heaviest users of horse manure here it concerns me a great deal and my tomatoes under cover are badly effected.
The contamination appears sporadic but I have come to the conclusion that it is widespread not only in this country but worldwide. Everyone connected with the chemicals production, sale or use are lieing through their teeth and I think we have to start with boycotting our suppliers of manure as well as naming and shaming them.
The stables may be ignorant of the contamination but ignorance is no defence and only by naming and shaming them and attempting to force them to dispose of their toxic waste legally at their expense can we force the problem up the chain.
Without access to laboratory testing facilities it is not possible to field test each delivery but anyone here with any political clout ought to press for the immediate setup of a testing facility funded by defra that we can send samples to for rapid analysis. They would then have no excuse not to deal with any contamination at source.
I will be setting up a page on my website as soon as time permits, outlining my theories and will be listing any known supplier of contaminated manure. If anyone wants their stables listed pm me with the stables name and address.
-
I've just rung our local trading standards who were unaware that we had this national problem so maybe others need to do the same.
-
Eristic, Trevor, Ron
May I add you to my list of victims. here http://www.glallotments.btik.com/p_Victims_of_Contaminated_Manure.ikml
If anyone else posting here will also give permission it will a show how widespread the problem is and b show the effect it is having and c maybe show suspected routes of contamination.
I have had one message from the US saying the problem is affecting them as well.
-
My Maris Peer have been affected but I think my other potatoes have escaped - don't knwo whether the thick layer of grass on top of the manure helped. Others on our site have been more affected than me though. My location is Lincoln - my sig and profile are more precise.
-
Eristic, Trevor, Ron
May I add you to my list of victims. here http://www.glallotments.btik.com/p_Victims_of_Contaminated_Manure.ikml
If anyone else posting here will also give permission it will a show how widespread the problem is and b show the effect it is having and c maybe show suspected routes of contamination.
I have had one message from the US saying the problem is affecting them as well.
Yes add me
Ron (Preston Lancs)
-
Just an update
My potato's are looking worse than ever all of the main crop seem to be affected now. Although the second earlies seem to be making a recovery, but are they safe to eat?
I have spoken to someone who asked the supplier of the manure and they were told " its not the manure its how you garden" with comments like that we are not going to get any where.
There are other plotters that are not convinced that it is the manure that's is the cause.
I don't know what to do, should I destroy all my produce that is affected and get rid of the manure, which is going to add more cost and loss.
Nobody seems to take this seriously or as seriously as they should.
I give my mother a lot of the stuff I grow and at the age of 81 I feel she my be more susceptible to any adverse affects to this chemical.
What a mess we are in, we try to grow so we know what we grow is good and free from chemicals and the farmers go behind our backs, is this chemical affecting milk or the meat we consume.
Just another thing we are suffering from on our allotments are thieves, alot of the plotters and myself have had all there blackcurrents, gooseberries and strawberries taken, and NO its not birds, there isn't a one left and none on the ground, the bushes are empty. They have been professionally picked in my opinion, quickly and without damage.
If it wasn't for the social aspect of the allotments I think I would just give it up as a bad job, I feel I just cant win.
Ron
-
Keep your pecker up slugcatcher.Gardening is a constant battle against the elements ,disease and predators,even the Human kind .the worse in my opinion.
Just remember the thrill of your own crops when all goes well. :)
-
Slugcatcher, I'm so sorry. I've been through the stage of feeeling hopeless about it too. Please don't give up. The good things far outweigh the bad things in the long run. Help to get the word out about this weedkiller, that way we're getting something positive out of the whole sorry mess.
It seems to me that it takes some time for the damage to show and the longer things have been in the ground, the worse the damage is. My ultra earlies were very sick, short, stunted and not a single potato. The first and second earlies were next to show damage and it was pretty bad - not stunted but apart from the bottom rings of leaves, all were curled up and deformed. They are producing a small quantity of potatoes. I thought intially that the maincrops were escaping but they are now showing signs of deformed growth, not as bad as the earlies but still there. However, I've been doing the intensive foliar feeding and blight spraying with them so it may have helped limit the damage.
My broad bean plants are no taller than 6". My runner beans are at the bottom of the wigwam and the new growth is very badly deformed. The new growth on the tomatoes is coming through defomed. Squashes, cucumbers, french beans all look sick. I can't tell yet if sweet peppers, chillis and aubies are hit.
If your growth looks like the pictures posted here, then it's not how you garden. If you want to be sure and to shut the sceptics up, take a photo and send it to the RHS at Wisley and to the Pesticides Safety Directorate. They are the experts and will give you a positive ID.
The tricky question is whether it's safe. Because of the risk of litigation, no-one will give a positive yes or no answer. Off the record, the experts are saying that if you get a crop and it looks OK, it's probably OK to eat. It's quite legal for cattle to graze on sprayed grass 7 days after spraying so it's already likely to be in the food chain. Whether you eat your stuff has to be a personal decision. I am. I don't like it being there and it shouldn't have been allowed to happen but on balance I think it poses a very low risk to human health. But that's only my opinion.
Sorry you're getting thieving as well. We've got it too. Normally our site doesn't really have a theft problem, but at the moment we have a phantom gooseberry thief. Not the first time either. They had a go at mine and one other person I've heard of. There may be more that haven't realised it yet. Barstewards!
-
re gooseberry theft
a neighbouring plotholder had a gooseberry bush stripped by birds in 20 minutes! He knows this 'cos he only left it uncovered while he went in the shed for a cuppa!!
thieves will drop or miss a few, birds don't. It's been a dry year, and birds need the liquid, watering points protect your fruit.
rgds, Tony
-
I suppose you all know that it was mentioned on Gardeners' Question Time http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/gqt/
-
Yes, amphibian posted it on the other thread. But I listened last night on iPlayer and it's not in that version.
-
Thanks for all this info. So far nobody at our site has complained of a problem, but I've submitted a short piece for the next newsletter so that folk are forewarned and will know what it is should it appear.
I've also added the weblinks that are given in this thread. I expect most folk on our site get their manure from just one person, and when I next see him, I'll make him aware of it too. I'll bet he makes a *lot* of cash from allotments so he won't want to jeopardise it!
moonbells
-
Sky news web page has an article about Gordon Brown complaining that we are wasting food. I have emailed a comment about how much food this problem is wasting. If many more of us do maybe it will be noted. the link is http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/Prime-Minister-Gordon-Brown-Urges-Families-To-Waste-Less-Food-Ahead-Of-G8-Summit-In-Hokkaido/Article/200807115026136?lpos=Business_2&lid=ARTICLE_15026136_Prime%2BMinister%2BGordon%2BBrown%2BUrges%2BFamilies%2BTo%2BWaste%2BLess%2BFood%2BAhead%2BOf%2BG8%2BSummit%2BIn%2BHokkaido#comment
Sorry its so long - comments are moderated so may not get though but we can try!
BBC news ahave a comments section on this too http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=5071&edition=1&ttl=20080707153934
-
This problem seems to be escalating, so I have been doing a few searches about the chemical and the company. I came across a page that Greenpeace was interested in, here is a copy of an email I have sent to another forum.
Hi…I have written to Greenpeace as I came across a report that worried me about some other chemical (PLEASE READ ALL OF IT)
http://www.stanford.edu/group/SICD/DowChemical/dow.html (http://www.stanford.edu/group/SICD/DowChemical/dow.html)
The name of the company rang alarm bells so I checked the “about us” of DowAgrosSciences webpage the manufacturers of the weedkiller, they say
“Dow AgroSciences is a wholly owned indirect subsidiary of The Dow Chemical Company.”
Which is the company that the report is about.
Just thought it was worth noting.
Ron
-
hi ceres, every one
i have read and re read but i cant see what i am meant to do with the effected plant matter?
i'm lucky only 1/2 of my plot got manured but i have lots of damaged potatoes and beans that are very poorly
also
should i scrap the plants on the same piece of land that are not affected?
lbb
-
Firstly, are you sure that you have hormone weedkiller damage - the foliage is very distinctive, curled and fernlike? There are photos posted to compare with. Plants can be poorly for many reasons - if you don't have the distinctive foliage, you don't have the weedkiller.
If you are sure that you do have the weedkiller damage, then there is expert advice from the RHS and Dow on what to do. Any unused manure should be returned to the supplier for spreading on grass or pasture. If they will take unused manure back, they may be willing to take affected plant matter too. If they won't (which will be the majority I imagine) then if possible spread or dig the stuff into grassed areas. If this is not possible (again for most of us) then the remaining options are to put it in your household rubbish bin (not the green waste one) or let it dry out and burn it. It shouldn't be composted or put in green recycling bins.
If you have weedkiller affected plants, I would treat any plants in the same manured ground as suspect even if they don't show the signs and I would dispose of them the same way as the affected plants. But please be completely sure first that you do in fact have weedkiller damage.
-
the council/rep says thats what it is, they arrange the manure deliver to us and another lotty site
she says the cases on the other site are confirmed so that must be what our problem is
-
You should have an easier job than the rest of us getting rid of your affected material then.
I hope you, or someone from your site, and from the other site too is writing to the PSD and Dow giving the details of the contamination.
-
i will email the ones in the links tomorrow after a proper look round our site and an attempt to get into barsbrook to see whats happening over there
thank you for all the info
lbb
-
Can i be cheeky and ask someone to explain in a nutshell what its all about. Its obviously a concern with the number of replyys but i don't have the time to read all the links.
-
A new weedkiller (aminopyralid) was brought to the market 2 years ago by Dow. It is sprayed on pasture and animal bedding and feed crops by farmers to kill broad-leaved weeds. The sprayed material gets eaten by animals and it gets passed out as manure. The weedkiller is very persistent so it is still active when we use affected manure on our plots. It causes very distinctive distorted growth on 'sensitive' crops - potatoes, tomatoes, beans, lettuce, raspberries. It is currently a nationwide problem - hundreds if not thousands of gardeners are affected. If you want any more, you'll have to go back and read!
-
Thanks Ceres. Greedy farmers? Has the substance been banned?
-
Northerner, you really just need to read this thread - all the information is there and although there is a lot of responses to go through you will probably find a lot of your questions have already been answered in depth. There is also another thread under Edible Plants - "Catastrophic Potato Problem" which is on the same theme.
twinkletoes
-
Hi everyone,
This is terrible !! There was a small item on Countryfile or Landward last week which is how I was first aware of the problem but I had no idea it was affecting so many of us growers.
I have a long double row of raspberries that were growing fine early on then started dying off - leaves shrivelling, browning, then canes look dead. I cut out the affected ones. Each end of the row look ok & now have fruit.
I was thinking it was raspberry root rot but not sure. The after reading all this info i recalled that sometime in the winter I had put some spare manure on the middle part of the raspberry bed - could this be the problem ? any way I could be sure ?
The potatoes and broad beans look ok so far - but that manure was dug in last autumn after being stacked for 6-12 months.
I was planning on putting a load of manure of the rasps & see if they recover next year - now don't know what to do.
Any advice welcome....
I find it strange no authority can say for sure if it is safe or not to eat the produce .................
regards Gail
-
PSD have issued an update today - this is a quote from it:
Based on reasonable worst case assumptions: that cattle are only fed grass, or silage made from grass, treated with aminopyralid; that vegetables are grown in soil mixed with manure produced from the animals; and that all the aminopyralid released from the manure is taken up into the plants; the highest residues would not be a concern for health, so vegetables should be safe to eat.
Link is http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php?action=post;topic=43062.40;num_replies=54
I have also added some info on our web site http://www.glallotments.btik.com/p_Contaminated_Manure.ikml - if you don't want to read thread - all the information is there set out as an article.
At least one MP is now asking for a Parliamentary debate!
-
At least one MP is now asking for a Parliamentary debate!
Hooray! Let's all lobby our MPs to push it! (Which MP, by the way? It'll be helpful to know, so that we can exert pressure.)
-
Paul Burstow, Sutton & Cheam - YAY!!!
http://paulburstow.org.uk/news/000879/allotment_holders_up_in_arms_over_contaminated_manure.html (http://paulburstow.org.uk/news/000879/allotment_holders_up_in_arms_over_contaminated_manure.html)
-
Letter seen in the Grauniad:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/14/food
moonbells
-
Thanks moonbells! Good letter.
-
Its made the August edition of Kitchen Garden magazine as well - just got my copy today and its on page 6.
-
Thanks Suzanne. Haven't seen it yet but I had written to the NSALG and they replied that there would be an article this month. Will pick up a copy tomorrow.
-
According to Dow (in an email to me), only 675,000 tonnes of farmyard waste is used by allotments and gardeners. I didn't ask that question. The only possible reason I can see for providing that statistic is to trivialise the issue.
-
But to put it into perspective that's nearly a million tons of contaminated toxic waste being disposed of illegally per year and Dow is the perpetrator of this crime.
-
If they spread it on grass land that's not illegal, UNFORTUNATELY !! and how did dow get their figures?? Loads of allotment holders collect their own manure and don't go over a weighbridge!!
As usual big agri business tramples all over the small guy!! ( and dow saying that they informed farmers not to allow this into the food chain is a bit rich, cattle are part of the food chain!) Has anyone from dow consumed this stuff?? why are they even allowed to sell this crap? Are we all being used as Lab Rats??
enough of a rant for now, must get back to my M.P. (again)
-
Paul Burstow, the MP for Sutton and Cheam tabled written questions in the House of Commons last week. These are the first answers. I believe there is another yet to come. Not much help really.
Manure
Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what representations his Department has received on the effects on horticulture of Aminopyralid in manure; [217528]
(2) how many incidents the Pesticides Safety Directorate has recorded regarding manure contaminated by aminopyralid in the last 12 months. [218325]
16 July 2008 : Column 435W
Mr. Woolas: The first inquiry relating to the potential effects of aminopyralid in manure was received by the Pesticides Safety Directorate’s helpline on 12 March 2008. Around 70 inquiries had been received up to 9 July 2008, primarily from amateur gardeners and allotment holders. It is not known how many reports of damage to crops are attributable to aminopyralid.
Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what assessment his Department has made of the effects on agricultural production of the use of manure containing Aminopyralid; [217529]
(2) what guidelines his Department has issued on the use of manure containing Aminopyralid; and how and to whom such guidance has been disseminated. [217530]
Mr. Woolas: Aminopyralid has been granted provisional authorisation for use as a herbicide on grassland, following an evaluation of relevant data by the Pesticides Safety Directorate. These data indicated that aminopyralid may remain in plant material from treated land and pass into the manure of livestock which eat such material. Susceptible crops may be adversely affected by the residues in the plant material.
Labels of products which contain aminopyralid therefore include warnings not to use manure from livestock which have eaten grass from treated land, or fodder derived from such grass, on susceptible crops or on land intended for growing such crops, until all plant material has fully decomposed. As with all plant protection products, users should always read and follow the label instructions; this is a statutory requirement. Some cases of damage to susceptible crops appear to have arisen because the label precautions on the use of manure may not always have been followed when manure has been supplied to allotment holders and gardeners.
Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment his Department has made of the risk to (a) human and (b) animal health of consuming vegetables grown in manure which contains Aminopyralid. [217531]
Mr. Woolas: Aminopyralid is a herbicide designed for selective broad-leaved weed control in grassland. It is of low toxicity to mammals. Damage to vegetables from aminopyralid residues in manure has arisen in part because the substance can persist in grass, hay or silage, and passes through the mammalian digestive system largely unaffected into the resultant manure, rather than being broken down.
The Pesticides Safety Directorate (PSD) authorised the use of aminopyralid on grassland on the basis of data which showed that there would be no unacceptable effects on animals fed on that grass, or on their meat or milk. PSD has now assessed additional information from the manufacturer that confirms that using manure which may contain residues of aminopyralid in ground used to grow vegetables does not have implications for human or animal health. Even if manure were derived from animals fed only grass, or silage made from grass treated with aminopyralid and plants took up all the aminopyralid present in that manure, the highest residues would not give rise to consumer health concerns and the vegetables should be safe to eat.
-
He doesn't sound very concerned about whether you get any veg or not! But htat's typical of ministers. They're often not concerned to solve the problem, just to justify what they've done.
-
"should" be safe to eat.
Humph. Another chemical gets into the food chain that we have no long-term data on...
moonbells
-
It is SO frustrating. The information in those answers is already in the public domain on the PSD, RHS and Dow websites. I think the wrong questions were asked. The real question should be what is going to change to prevent this happening again.
Since this started I have written to the Plant Health Inspectorate, the Pesticides Safety Directorate, the RHS, Dow AgroScience, Gardeners' Question Time, Gardeners' World magazine, Which? magazine and Gardening Which? magazine, the BBC Countryfile programme, the National Society of Allotment and Leisure Gardeners, my MP, the London MEP with responsibility for environmental issues, the Secretary of State at DEFRA. Guess which 3 haven't even acknowledged, never mind replied?
-
It really is wrong. I think the only safe bet is to let your manure stand a couple of years. The farmers who knew this and never told anyone should be bullwhipped.
-
Still waiting an acknowledgement for either of my two e-mails to my MP! (One in a personal capacity, the other as secretary of the oldest allotment site in his constituency.)
-
northener, the experts are saying that stacking contaminated manure will actually slow down the process of neutralising the herbicide. Soil organisms are needed to break down residues and in a stack there is limited exposure to the organisms. While this stuff is still being sprayed, there is no way of making sure your supply is safe.
Trevor, does your MP have a walk-in surgery? Mine does and I'm thinking of paying him a visit.
-
So whatts the answer? work it into your soil and leave it for a year?
-
Ceres...............you have worked so hard to keep us all informed what is going on...........Lots of thanks to you :)
-
Yes, I agree - a big round of applause. I've been following this thread carefully, and haven't commented as I haven't experienced any of the problems associated with the contaminated manure, not have I heard of anyone on our plots who have either. But we use a lot of manure, so we've been lucky.
Interestingly enough, I worked in a Dow company about 15 years ago and the first thing they told me was that Dow was everywhere - everything you touch, see or use has something Dow has manufactured. Didn't expect it to be so true as is proving in this thread.
Well done, Ceres, it's hard work battling the big boys, but this is how disasters are avoided. Who knows, if no-one complained, and people start suffering from weird ailments in years to come and it's traced back to Aminopyralid the questions would be "why didn't anyone say/do anything"
Thank you for everything you're doing :-* :-* :-*
-
I worked in a Dow company about 15 years ago and the first thing they told me was that Dow was everywhere - everything you touch, see or use has something Dow has manufactured.
Yuck!!!
-
Sorry, had to calm down a bit after reading asbean's quote....
Yes ceres, the walk-in surgery's a good idea; I'll look it up. Several plot-holders have e-mailed as well, so perhaps he might get more than one visit!
Concerning the advice to spread the affected manure back on the pasture, we were a bit concerned that this might compound the problem - especially as the pasture would be routinely sprayed next spring - so we have contacted Defra for advice.
No reply to date....
-
I went to my MP's walk-in surgery today. He was aware of the issue - four of his constituents had raised it with him. He seemed interested and sympathetic - he is very keen on allotments and has lobbied for more AND his wife has a small farm/stables.
He had already written to the Minister for Agriculture and said he would now write to Hilary Benn, the Minister of State at DEFRA. I expressed my concern that because the growing season is well advanced, most people who are going to be affected have been and that because Parliament is about to go into recess, this whole subject would just slip under the radar now until next year, when all things being equal even more people will be affected.
He explained that there has been a Parliamentary rule change which now permits questions to be tabled and answered during recess so I gave him some ideas for questions to ask.
He remembered me from the Observer piece and asked if I would do another for the local press if he is able to set it up. So, worthwhile queuing for 2 hours in a room full of, I'm guessing, immigration issues!
Trevor, let us know if you do get an answer from DEFRA. I hadn't thought about the 'double whammy' effect on animals and crops/pasture.
How scary is that about Dow. No company should be that powerful.
Thanks for the kind words of support. It is very much appreciated, particularly as there is none at my site, quite the opposite in fact. You probably wouldn't believe it if I told you! Anyway, thanks again.
-
apologies if this has already been posted somewhere else ...
fyi - somebody has started an e-petition asking for aminopyralid to be banned.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Aminopyralid (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Aminopyralid)/
e-petitions are a 10 Downing St initiative. You can "sign" the petition.
-
16 July 2008 : Column 435W
Mr. Woolas: The first inquiry relating to the potential effects of aminopyralid in manure was received by the Pesticides Safety Directorate’s helpline on 12 March 2008. Around 70 inquiries had been received up to 9 July 2008, primarily from amateur gardeners and allotment holders. It is not known how many reports of damage to crops are attributable to aminopyralid.
This answer seems to underplay the problem - I reported our site which is 12 individual reports in effect. Our web page http://www.glallotments.btik.com/p_Victims_of_Contaminated_Manure.ikml has 34 reports some affecting more than one allotment site. I think that the PSD website puts people off reporting as it implies that they need to substantiate their suspicions before reporting. I have added a bit on our blog encouraging more people to report suspicions http://glallotments.blogspot.com/
I have also emailed Mr Burrows PA with some suggested follow-up questions.
-
Hi all,
My plot neighbours have suffered the same curled leaf effect in toms grown in bags of organic composted manure from a local garden centre. The toms afffected are a beefsteak variety, a cherry variety in the same organic product are not affected at the moment. Others grown in the other half of the greenhouse in another brand of compost have also not suffered.
This seems to offer more evidence that the problem exists in bagged products too.
Col
-
Col
Thanks for the info - sorry your neighbours have got this too and from bagged compost. Could you please persuade them that they must report it to the PSD who are saying that they haven't had many suggestions that bagged products are the source. They can contact the PSD here:
information@psd.hse.gsi.gov.uk (http://information@psd.hse.gsi.gov.uk)
It would also be worth them contacting Dow here:
ukhotline@dow.com (http://ukhotline@dow.com)
-
It definitely is in bagged compost.
I haven't suffered this year, but did - quite badly - last year. Two of the tomatoes effected were in the greenhouse at the allotment, which is why I initially suspected that it might be wind-borne. But the Defra representative who came to the site was adamant that it was hormone weedkiller from the manure from our on-site stables.
But I don't use stable manure in the greenhouse. The plants were in 10-inch pots. But now I have a bit more knowledge I've realised that the compost the effected tomatoes were planted in was two-thirds commercial compost & one-third re-cycled Borough compost.
Aminopyralid is only available to farmers; but copyralid is in all manner of preparations available to the general public, eg Vitax and other "feed & weeds". So we feed & weed our lawn, cut the grass and - being good green citizens - put it in the bag for the council to collect....
I feel there's a lot more in this than meets the eye. Keep asking questions folks....
-
apologies if this has already been posted somewhere else ...
fyi - somebody has started an e-petition asking for aminopyralid to be banned.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Aminopyralid (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Aminopyralid)/
e-petitions are a 10 Downing St initiative. You can "sign" the petition.
Bak, thanks for putting the link in to the petition which I have signed.
I personally haven't been affected by the weedkiller as I don't buy in manure. I rot down the straw and muck that my chickens produce and also let them into the plots to clear the weeds.
It bothers me though that this weedkiller is still in the hay when it is fed to animals that we eat, so please sign it A4A members and any of the many unregistered viewers who frequent this site.
-
I just want to bring this back to the top and highlight the petition for those that might have missed it.
-
Yep - I have now....
twinkletoes
-
OMG i was the 666th person. I hope nothing happens to me !!!!!
-
701... Keep going!
-
I had been down south for a week when I paid attention to this thread. Before I left glasgow, I had suffered some failure with some spud plants but next door plot guru had put it down to Black Rot.
While I was down south though, I met an allotmenteer and asked him if he had experienced any catastrophic failures. He hadn't (but then he hadn't manured either), but there were a few plots surrounding him that were having problems with their toms. He nearly spilled his pint when I started describing the symptoms and is running off back to his plot with the name on a bit of paper to ask a few more questions.
I got up to my plot yesterday and thankfully nothing untoward appears to have happened since my depature. No more spuds failing and beans look ok. I am breathing a sigh of relief as I had manured about 3/4 of my tiny plot last autumn and if i'd have lost the lot I would have been devastated.
Thanks so much to Ceres and everyone else for doing the spade work for us and hope those who have been affected have the strength to carry on. I use numerous bags of compost in the garden so am equally concerned about which ones I should be avoiding (or doesn't it seem to be brand specific).
I have signed the petition.
Will keep eyes and ears peeled.
MrsKP
-
Question for you Ceres I think. You said that the manure needs to break down in soil to neutralise it (I think) so, I have a small amount of manure maybe 3 wheelbarrow loads - how much soil would need to be mixed in with it to get the manure to break down.......sorry, not very good with this scientific speak ::)
My idea would be to mix soil in with the manure and leave it so the soil and manure together do their stuff and render the manure unharmful - so I can use it on the lottie..........what do you think?
twinkletoes
-
I think it's more a question of time. From what I'm reading, I think it would break down in a couple of years, but I wouldn't swear to that. Meanwhile, I wouldn't want contaminated manure on my plot, in any quantity! If I had it at all, it would stay strictly in its pile until it was well and truly rotted down.
-
As Robert says, it's a time thing. First the straw needs to rot down completely. When that has happened, the herbicide disappears into the soil as harmless compounds. How long the straw will take to rot depends on a number of variables - the weather, the type of soil you have, how much manure, how much straw in the manure, what kind of manure etc. etc. The recommended way to speed up the process in already manured soil is to dig or rotovate, then dig or rotovate again, and again, and again........ as many times as you can manage before the next growing season.
There is no formula that I'm aware of for 'neutralising' the weedkiller with soil. My personal opinion is that doing what you suggest will be a very slow process. Effectively you are stacking the manure, albeit with a bit of soil. The professional advice is that stacking is not a good option.
If you know your manure is affected, why are you even considering using it? There is no way I would risk it, having lost one season already and lined up to lose next year too. Have you tried getting your supplier to take it away? They at least have the option of spreading it on pasture. If your supplier won't take it away, you can dispose of it in the household waste - not green waste. Does your site provide skips?.
-
Oh, no. I don't have any contaminated manure - it was just a thought...... Not enough to do at work and my mind was wandering a bit..... Sorry to have wasted your time... :-[
twinkletoes
-
It's not a waste of time TT - if I thought it was, I wouldn't be doing it! All these questions need to be asked or next year the same thing will be happening all over again.
-
Just in case you haven't heard below is a extract from an answer given by Phil Woolas to a question asked in Parliament from Tim Loughton MP.
Quote:
The manufacturer has indicated that they are withdrawing products which contain aminopyralid from sale and PSD is formally suspending their authorisations while they investigate the options for preventing a recurrence of this problem. A key issue in their consideration will be whether the conditions of use regarding manure are sufficient, or sufficiently well known. End of quote
So we have a temporary withdrawals and suspension. It is also worth noting that now the figure of complaiants quoted is 90 still on the low side I think - so keep sending in reports to the PSD.
-
Too late ;) There's a new thread here:
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=44158 (http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=44158)
-
Sorry Ceres,
I thought that you would post something and kept looking so when you hadn't I did.
Didn't think to look for another thread!
-
Interesting article here:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article.php?aid=263655&cid=397 (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article.php?aid=263655&cid=397)
A commercial compost company that has a contract for the horse manure from a big livery stable has asked the stable to sign a declaration that it doesn't buy in any feed that has been sprayed with aminopyralid. Good news, I think. Word is continuing to spread.
These next 2 links were on gl's blog today. Views from the other side of the fence:
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1216327369 (http://farmingforum.co.uk/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1216327369)
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1215526532 (http://farmingforum.co.uk/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1215526532)
"It is very likely that alll the tales in the press which we can be sure are grossly exaggerated by the organic brigade etc ......."
"a(t) least they wont have dock in their carrots, they should count their blessings
Have poeple got nothing better to moan about"
"Not any more, the allotment lot have got their way and Dow have pulled it."
-
just received a magazine from nsalg, there is an article in there, by trevor dixon, says last year's damage was very serious, this year's more limited, don't think they know about your problems, might be worth an e mail to them ?
-
Hi manics. Is that magazine Allotment & Leisure Gardener from the NSALG? If so, I gave up with them. I wrote to them around the same time I wrote to loads of other bodies. I said I was surprised that there was nothing on their website about the issue and asking what they were doing to help us. I got a really snotty reply back from them saying:
"See the letter to DEFRA, annexed. See also my article in the forthcoming ‘Allotment and Leisure Gardner’. Is this pro-active enough for you ?"
What's even worse is that they got both the letter and article FACTUALLY wrong. Aminopyralid is not another name for Clopyralid. They are different chemicals, used differently and with different effects.
If they are now saying that last year was worse, I think they are a lost cause.
-
that's a shame, the magazine goes to so many people, it would bring it to their attention, that is the one I received, it also says the weedkiller takes 2 years to break down, think I might e mail and point out some of the flaws, :-\
-
OK. I'll try again. We need all the help we can get!
-
just found 2 more articles in there, back page and stop press, they want anyone who is affected to e mail Bryn Pugh at natsoc@nsalg.org.uk ..the other is from sandwell allotments council
-
That's him that I wrote to before. He's their legal consultant. Good that they're giving it more airtime though. I've seen the Sandwell allotments posting in various places - they're doing a good job.
-
There is also a "notice" on the "GYO Allotment Notice Board" in this months Grow Your Own magazine warning about this problem.
twinkletoes
-
Also an article in Organic Gardening this month as well.
-
Great that it's getting so much coverage. I did a telephone interview on Wednesday with a journalist from a local paper and the article appeared yesterday with a picture from the photoshoot I did with my MP last week. Got a bit of a tabloid headline though - "Allotment holder's fight against contamination". I'm pleased I approached my MP. Of all the MPs who have offered support, he's actually done something.
-
it was on iPM with Eddie Mair this afternoon Radio 4
-
Thanks Tony. Just listened on iPlayer. It was a good piece. Interesting Bryn Pugh of the NSALG said they have had 613 calls about it this year, but he's said in writing that the problem was greater last year. I wonder how many calls they had last year and why they didn't do something about it then.
-
I heard the Eddie Mair piece this afternoon too - excellent 8)
-
Last nights gardners world article stated that it would only take about three weeks for this weedkiller to be broken down by bacterial breakdown in soil rubbish!
we put manure on beds in march , first dahlias affected in early june, second planting in july affected by late july, beans on the bed now affected. this makes at least five months of problems for us and no sign of any reduction in the action of this weedkiller.
Pretty unimpressed by the statement about the three weeks.
It looks like the two year advice is more likely to be relevant.
gutted, lost 30 years of dahlia culture and collection building up. looking out on an empty bed that should be in full bloom by now.
sunloving :(
-
What Guy Barter said was only part of the correct answer. I did wonder if what he said had been edited down and the sense was lost in the process. It's correct that after the plant material has completely rotted away, the weedkiller is released into the soil and breaks down into harmless compounds in a few weeks. However, the time taken for the plant material to rot down is much longer and can be as long as a couple of years depending on soil conditions, temperature etc.
I'm so sorry for your losses. I've only lost veg and hopefully the year after next they'll be back to normal. I can't imagine what it must be like to have lost what is effectvely your life's work.
-
How interesting that this topic was at the top of the line re: recent topics, as I wanted to post a question on it. Was laying in bed this morning and had a brain wave on asking freecyclers for spent bedding and droppings from their small mammal pets. I though this would help solve the problem of not using horse/ cow manure this autumn and next spring like I hoped too. But suddenly remembered about the weedkiller also found on the straw that can be used in bedding. what are the views do you think it will pose a problem, or this just occurred to me maybe I could just request it from people who only use shredded paper? ???
-
If the bedding is straw which is derived from cereal crops it should be safe as aminopyralid isn't licensed for use on cereals. If it is hay based, then I would avoid it as there is absolutely no way of knowing whether it might have been sprayed. I've bought both in the past for mulching my strawbs - barley straw and meadow hay. I know which one I'll be sticking to in future.
-
If the bedding is straw which is derived from cereal crops it should be safe as aminopyralid isn't licensed for use on cereals. If it is hay based, then I would avoid it as there is absolutely no way of knowing whether it might have been sprayed. I've bought both in the past for mulching my strawbs - barley straw and meadow hay. I know which one I'll be sticking to in future.
ah thanks for clearing that up for me. the only problem is the pet owners may not be aware of the source of their straw, i might just request it from paper users to stay on the safe side, but it will probably reduce the amount i could have gotten. ho hum :-\
-
Ditto Thifasmon, on our way to Shrewsbury Flower show yesterday we went past a farm advertising organic straw rich in wildflowers. I did say to OH we should go in and ask them who buys their straw so we can go and ask them for manure next year.
-
oh, and won't be buying barley straw to keep the pond clear next year, just in case. I have a lovely & quite rare waterlily & I'm taking no chances!
-
oh, and won't be buying barley straw to keep the pond clear next year, just in case. I have a lovely & quite rare waterlily & I'm taking no chances!
oh my goodnews this a great point i do this every year, makes me rethink about doing it, hmm ???
-
Aminopyralid is particularly harmful to water courses and the aquatic environment.
-
Can we all cease and desist from propagating the myth that aminopyralid breaks down once in contact with the soil. It does not. All the academic institutions have been very quick to copy the manufacturers guidelines and information but none of them have actually done any tests.
The poison is highly soluble and is readily absorbed by any nearby vegetation, some being killed, others surviving either unharmed or distorted. Any toxic solution not immediately absorbed by plants is simply washed into the nearest water course and hence onwards to the reservoir and the nations drinking water.
It is regularly stated that the poison passes through mammals without harm and the urine contaminates the manure making the manure the guilty party but who has tested this? Certainly not the RHS who still hasn't realised that their own trial grounds are contaminated and not the NVS who now mistakenly try to tell us that it was worse last year than this but completely forgot to notify either the public or the authorities.
All we know is that the poison kills some plants, makes some sick while others apparently survive unaffected. Whether it adversely affects horses and people is probably down to the dosage levels and would probably only then affect children or the foetus.
To sum up, until proof to the contrary is released by trusted independent authorities, aminopyralid should be considered persistant in the environment in the same manner as DDT.
-
Can we all cease and desist from propagating the myth that aminopyralid breaks down once in contact with the soil. It does not.
Do you have a reference/citation/proof to support your assertion?
-
Regarding the danger to water: it is not licenced for use in New York State for precisely this reason!
And American websites specifically state that it should not be used on any grassland (eg camp-sites or parks) which may be used by children, in case it is accidentally ingested.
-
Received this from my M.P. yesterday[attachment=1][attachment=2]
-
can you give a summary i can't see it properly to read it, thanks.
-
Phil woolas, M.P.(minister for environment), responding to my M.P.'s letter to Lord Rooker about Aminopyralid. He states that although the presence of aminopyralid has not been confirmed in any cases of crop damage, it is likely that it is the culprit in some cases. Blaming farmers for not adhering to labels on product. Dow have withdrawn products from sale containing aminopyralid, and the PSD have formally suspended their auyhorisations whilst they investigate the options for preventing a recurrence of this problem. A key issue in their consideration wil be whether the conditions of use regarding manure are sufficient, or sufficiently well known!!
-
thanks for that. :)
-
Hi All,
A ray of hope here.
We used the manure on heavy clay and to aid breaking the clay up on the bed, OH rotovated the council compost. manure & clay to a really fine tilth. We forgot to settle the soil again before planting Anya's. Ok, we lost all the beans in that bed and the photo of our Anya top growth looking curled and stunted is appearing on websites all over the place. We left the potatos to do their thing & got on with the other jobs.
Well, we have a harvest of potatoes! They are horribly knobbly, not like the Anya from non contaminated areas, so I showed them to a couple of people on site & their response was, that's what happens to Anya's when they're starved of nutrients.
OK, they're still contaminated, but at least the plants managed to recover enough to produce a goodly load of tubers.
What I take from this is that the oxygen we introduced by tilling the soil & not knocking it back down again has accelerated the breakdown of the weedkiller. I did wonder when I started to see dock like weeds coming up but being cynical, I just tought that was the icing on the cake - kill the spuds but not the weeds.......
It may be worth "fluffing" up your soil with a Tiller or such like and see if that accelerates the breakdown of the nasties - gott abe worth a go.
Cheers
-
Hi All,
A ray of hope here.
We used the manure on heavy clay and to aid breaking the clay up on the bed, OH rotovated the council compost. manure & clay to a really fine tilth........
It may be worth "fluffing" up your soil with a Tiller or such like and see if that accelerates the breakdown of the nasties - gott abe worth a go.
Cheers
Your outcome i would say supports this remedy found on this site:
http://www.allotment.org.uk/garden-diary/273/aminopyralid-contaminated-manure/ (http://www.allotment.org.uk/garden-diary/273/aminopyralid-contaminated-manure/)
-
<LOL>
This is our Lottie site! The guy who runs that web site is one of the ones I showed the Anyas too & he took the piccie of the foliage that is now circulating all over the show!
-
<LOL>
This is our Lottie site! The guy who runs that web site is one of the ones I showed the Anyas too & he took the piccie of the foliage that is now circulating all over the show!
;D its a small world after all ;D
-
This problem has not gone away. The land sprayed with the substance earlier this year will still be effecting vegetation grown on it.
I am not a scientist but it seems to me that the active ingredient stays active. It is diluted either by water or by 'clean' organic material to the point where it is too weak to be harmful.
Does any one know of any proper tests?
Me thinks that if the active ingredient does become inactive, in time. The manufacturers would be the ones keenest to show this.
Sometimes one learns from what is NOT said.
-
Full page on it in the Daily Mail! it doesn,t add anything to what has already been said here, just thought someone might be interested
marg
-
It's good to hear it's still getting coverage, marg. The more publicity, the less folks will be affected next year.