Allotments 4 All
Produce => Ponds 'n' Stuff => Topic started by: Andy H on June 15, 2008, 19:45:10
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Once before when we had to stop the pump going into the filter and we also cleaned the filter and when restarted we lost 6 big koi.
Tonight whilst removing UV bulbs I snapped the pipe. This means that the pump is pumping straight back into pond without going through the filters.
We don`t want to lose more fish and can hopefully get the part tomorrow to allow water to go through the filter again.
Is it OK to just start it up again or should we clean filter?
What killed the fish last time? Bacteria in filter dying? cleaning the filter too much?
Hope someone can advise.
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Dont clean the filters, the bacteria will encyst whilst the conditions are not favourable and become active when they are. If you are really worried add an air line to the filter medium.
When the filters go back online DONT feed the fish for at least 2 weeks or you will poison the pond ie ammonia spike, and kill the fish.
Most filters take two years to really work well and the bacteria to build up well and after that the bacteria are usually fairly bomb proof.
Andy try this link. http://www.koiquest.co.uk/
I know Duncan hes a good friend, as are most of the mods etc, and I used to write articles for this site and it has everything you need to know about koi. But beware reading that site will turn you into a serious koi keeper!!!
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2 WEEKS!!!
The filters were off for 12hrs but pond areated by pump. This morning I put hose in filter to add air and keep some slow movement. I couldnt get the bit for the UV so bought a new one which I am about to go and put on.
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Got a bit lost on that other site so maybe you can help a bit more on here.
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/peteboatfishpondtest015.jpg) The pond
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/peteboatfishpondtest016.jpg)
Flows into settlement tank where the pump is....
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/peteboatfishpondtest017.jpg)
and upto the UV and power supply in this box.....
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/peteboatfishpondtest018.jpg)
Then upto the filter which gravity feeds back into the pond
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/peteboatfishpondtest019.jpg)
The first compartment is empty the brushes in the 2nd and chinese matting as they called it in the 3rd and nothing in the 4th although it did have curly plastic and 3 layers of foam originally.
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The Nitrate appears to be about 80ppm
the Nitrite about .25ppm and the ammonia 0-.25ppm
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/peteboatfishpondtest020.jpg)
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/peteboatfishpondtest021.jpg)
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/peteboatfishpondtest022.jpg)
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Andy each one of your levels is ‘off’ for koi and by the nitrate (NO3) reading you have previously had an ammonia (NH3/4) spike, which is deadly for koi.
I cannot see your PH level so could you tell me what it is please?
The readings below are perfect for koi;
Ammonia (NH3/4)– Acceptable level = 0
Nitrite N02 – Acceptable level = 0
Nitrate No3– less then 60 ppm (closer to 0 is best)
PH – 7.4 – 8.4
The Nitrogen cycle works like this;
Ammonia is converted into Nitrite then into nitrate. That’s in its simplest terms.
High ammonia and nitrite are lethal for koi. The higher the ph the less ammonia is needed to kill the koi, high nitrite creates a condition called methemoglobin (brown blood disease) and the koi blood cannot carry oxygen (02).
Ammonia is produced by the koi breathing, urinating, defecating and also by detritus in the filters and on the pond bottom (quantities produced in that order). Whilst we cannot stop koi breathing etc we can stop them defecating by not feeding, hence I suggested not feeding the koi for 2 weeks. The time frame can be less if the water parameters stay perfect.
Right now for your pond I would advocate small water changes 5% twice per week (using dechlor) until the parameters are perfect.
When the water parameters are not perfect then koi get stressed and stressed koi activate inherent diseases, get ill and die.
Over stocking a pond causes major ongoing problems, each inch of koi requires 200 imperial gallons of water so if your pond is over stocked you will continue to see problems until by natural selection the right stocking level is achieved.
You can however circumvent that a little by having HUGE filters.
Perhaps you could replace the curly plastic and foam as these ‘polish’ the water and remove the fines.
I hope this helps.
Ish
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Thanks for that in depth reply,
you said that each inch of koi requires 200 imperial gallons of water
I dont understand??? That indicates one big fish in a 2000 gallon pond??
I will see if I can get Dechlor tomorrow and the plastic and foam...
wife will do PH test in a min.
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PH is 6.8-7.0 on the charts.....
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the curly plastic bits are flocore and provide a greater surface area for benifical bacteria to colonise and help beake down toxins in the water, personaly i prefer alfagrog. Alfagrog is a Volcanic rock it is very inert and soon colonises with beneficial bacteria ...
Alphagrog is made of a highly porous material that contains many thousands of tiny pockets in which bacteria can thrive making in an ideal material for biological filters.
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Wonder if I could use emptied and washed tasimo coffee plastic bits???
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Dave I actually dont like alphagrog very much as you cant effectively clean it when it clogs. I do prefer flocore.
A friend called Dr Roddy Conrad once made a waterfall of volcanic rock in about 2001 to add extra bio but the water was effectivley 'clean' by the time it got to the waterfall so no 'dirt'.
Andy your ph is good, please dont let it drop further than 7.
You can use anything inert as a filter medium, I know someone who used plastic knives and forks and it worked well.
If you are serious about using those plastic tassimo cups then I would add a strong ailine to the filter to keep them in suspension, that way they wont compact. If you are lucky (and with loads of O2) you may also get both anaerobic and aerobic bacteria colonising them too.
Yes Andy a perfect pond stocking level is 1 inch of koi per 200 imperial gallons, it shows how most of us are way, way overstocked. You measure the body of the koi only btw.
Those dealers you see stocking much much higher tend to have HUMUNGOUS filters you cant generally see and they do more than the standard 10% water changes per week that we should all be doing.
I do change 10% per week, summer and winter.
You know when you are overstocked for your filters because the koi go from one health problem to another, ulcers, fin rot, ich, etc and also your water perameters are never stabel.
I have 12 large koi in a 5000 imperial gallon pond, plus filters that hold 500 imperial gallons and Im overstocked.
I also have what used to be known as trickle filters after my main filters for extra bio filtration.
Jackie
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(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/TassimoDisc001.jpg)
I believe the Tassimo discs float anyway so the water falling into the last compartment should keep them moving.
They do have a rim of silver foil round them but I would imagine the slow dissintigration of these wouldn`t make much of a problem(?)
I would also do a rinse in the washing machine with just water to give another rinse.
What pressure filters do you use? The sand ones? or centrifugal?
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Ah the water dropping into the filter chamber should do well to keep the Tassimo cups moving.
Perhaps you could scrape away the foil with a knife edge as any metals in the pond arent good for the fish.
I see you are adding extra biological filtration, not mechanical filtration.
Bio will keep the water perams more stable but will not get rid of cloudy water or water that contains 'fines'. For that you will need some form of sponge or matting.
The pressure filters are centrifugal but its dark now and I cant remember which make they are so i will look tomorrow for you if you wish. :)
Cheers
Jackie
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OK Jackie I am now heading towards the plastic coils and not being so tight or environmental friendly as I was using as an excuse for our tassimo waste!
I assume the "fines" are a fine sediment?
I will try to get the round shaped foam above the coils, what above the white fine fibre stuff as the "4th" finest level? It is like a sheet of cotton wool?
What do you think about tights round the intake from the pond to filter out some stuff into the settlement chamber?
I once tried a "milk" filter from the farm but it was so fine that hardly any water got through!!! ;D
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Yes 'fines' are water suspended dirt, these make the water cloudy.
Seeing which grade of foam works best for you and your pond will really be a trial and error sort of thing untill the water is clean.
Too fine and it will clog within 24 hours if the water is really dirty so you may need to use several different grades as the water gets cleaner and cleaner.
It may be an idea to try to clean the water cheaply first by using a pair of tights and cotton wool.
Tie one leg of the pair of tights to the out pipe and add some cotton wool at the toe. Dont stuff it full of coton wool just add a handfull because it will clog quickly and I want the water to overflow the cotton wool back into the pond if it gets clogged when you are out.
Check and clean this everyday (or maybe at first several times per day)
Once the water is clean then decide which grade of matting you prefer to use.
PS If the water is really full of dirt then you can use a fine weave net curtain as this will remove the larger 'fines first then go on to use cotton wool.
As I cant see your water its difficult to actually judge which to use first so Im probably giving you too much info at once, if I am Im sorry.
Jackie
PPS You can use the plastic scrubbers from wilkinsons as a filter medium instead of paying out for flocore, they work very well and have lots of surface area
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Andy the filters are fishmate 1500's, the ponds they are on are 500 gallons, so you see I like mega filtration with any pond. ;)
http://www.fishmate-shop.co.uk/
Mine are the second ones down on the page, the poweclenz.
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Have tried tights before but never with cotton wool in them, do you mean a whole leg.
Didn`t get to fish shop as Got BAD toothache and going up hospital in a min but I will get there.
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No its just the toe of the tights.
OUCH!! Poor you. I hope the nurses give you strong enough analgesics to allow you to sleep. :(
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Walk in centre no good, have to ring a number and book then they rung back as we gave up. So much for emergency treatment, back to the oralgel!!! :(
Will go and put the tights on the filter now....
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Hi Jackie
The tights clogged pretty quick but the above link was very interesting.
Although I couldn`t find pumps etc that you have.
I did read quite a bit on filters.
Years ago after lesson one! I always felt that I should double everything recommended but it seems that even that was not enough.
I visited a guy up north once to see his pond and it was amazing.
He sent me the plans of his pond and filters etc. This was years ago before the internet, 25 years ago in fact, in the days of prestel and ringing peoples home computers direct(huge phone bill) and typing directly to a few people at a time.
Even sent mother and father in law a telex via prestel via imnarsat to the QE2(£5) captain was impressed!
Interested in the pressure filters you have though.
Once considered a sand filter like a swimming pool but was told that these really just polished the final result.
I was thinking that it worked as the ultimate filtration in that it got everything out of the water and the water was perfect, I am starting to think that my way of thinking is totally wrong in this respect...
God this is complicated! Only want a clear pond and some fish for gods sake :o
On the subject of food(koi sticks) how much should you feed per inch of fish???
Have I got to go count the fish and guess their size and add it all up?
Does sweetcorn(organically home grown!!!) and bread screw things up a lot???
Andy (PS:I really appreciate your help on all this)
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Andy try this link its great for toothache
http://www.naturedirect2u.com/Essential%20oils/clove.htm
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Yeah i got oralgel and it contains cloves, put some on the gum and it is numb in seconds then you dribble and slur like you have been to the dentist ;D
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So bearing in mind elec consumption of pumps and UV etc can you recommend a good air pump?
Apart from the diaphram ones we have tried in the past we tried the piston type where the inventor retired and no one else makes them.
However, none of these worked at depth. lowered 3 ft down and they all slowed down dramatically.
Any ideas?
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I have a Hi-blow air pump, 8 line output and have had it for years. Its a great air pump!
Ive just looked this link and the designs have changed somewhat but the name is still there so they will be fine I'm sure. :)
http://www.koicarp.net/air_products/airpumps/hi_blow.html
That link also sells the Aquamax pumps I use for the water.
This is a good site to peruse at your leasure too.
Koi will eat just about anything and mine like yours eat brown bread etc.
They also love peas, edible flowers, lettuce, maggots, spiders, wood lice, segmented oranges, corned beef, any fresh water fish, prawns, worms, the little red worms you can find in the filters etc etc.
I suggest you try a little and see which your koi prefer.
Feed the koi then only leave the food in for 10 mins after that fish it out as they aint gonna eat it!
I do not feed high protein bought food unless I want to 'bring on' any particular koi. I generally use wheatgerm, low protein food until the koi stop eating for winter as its easier to keep water perams stable.
I do sometimes feed spirulina and then mix my own koi food but that is really only for top end koi as its mega expensive. Spirulina improves koi 'hi' (red)
BTW I had a bright idea to feed mine boiled rice, you know they are Japanese fish so hence the rice, Mine hated it and I had to fish it all out next day lol
Hope this helps
Jackie
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Put sponges and "cotton wool" fabric under it temporarily and flowcore in as thats all they had. Water is clearer today, can see 4.5ft down to the drain.
Looks like a good website but will look more in morning as playing poker soon.
What do you use you air pump for? in the pond in a few places or in the filter as well?
What size for what pond and how deep does it pump.
I have always found they dont like depth/pressure and we have had diaphram and piston types in the past.
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Im glad your water is clearer. Keep going and we shall get it 'polished' yet. :)
I use the air filter for;
Goldfish pond, 1 line, 30 feet from pump and 3 foot deep.
Wildlife pond, 1 line, 20 feet from pump and 3 foot deep.
koi pond, 4 lines, about 2 feet from pump and 4.5 feet deep.
I leave 2 lines not connected because if I need the quarantine tank or hospital tank for anything I then have 2 lines spare.
I dont put an air line in the filters (generally) as the water flowing into them is O2 saturated, however I once took part in an experiment for suspended filter medium and then added 1 in the final filter chamber.
I often used to take part in experiments to help the koi hobby around the world. ;)
Below is a link to one that Duncan did and I helped with. :)
http://www.koiquest.co.uk/Telmin.htm
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Some good links on this and the other post, learning more and getting more confused!!!!
HAILEA
AIR COMPRESSOR
ACO-009E
Is this pump any good? Just trying to save money
Also looked at a 150mm ceramic airstone?
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I dont know that pump Andy so really cant comment on it except to say its output is better than the one I use. :)
I know Ive given you loads of info very quickly and Im sorry that it has confused you (it did me loads when I started serious koi keeping) but absorb what you need and dont even try to understand the rest.
I have a BSC(hons) so science is my bag and I have been learning koi for over 20 years now and still dont know as much as a few others I could mention. Its a hobby that keeps you learning, which I love.
Get the cheapest air stones, it really doesnt matter as they often end up disconected and on the floor of the pond. My koi pull them off the line.
You are doing great. :)
Basics are;
Get mega filters, if yours arent mega, add on.
Dont overstock.
Dont overfeed
Watch the water perams always, look after the water and it will look after your koi.
10% water change weekly (with dechlor) winter and summer
PS I could REALLY confuse you and start talking about koi health and the operations I have performed ;) lol
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No problem about the info!
How many gals is your pond and what model of Hi Blow do you have, just to give me a good idea.
Reading on some sites about the downsides of cheap ebay and noisy piston types.
The old piston one we had years ago for indoors had a flywheel etc. worked great but no depth/psi capabilities.
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(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/FishJune2008001.jpg)
Any ideas on this lump on the fish and what make and model the black one is???
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/FishJune2008013.jpg)
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was looking at above link and browsing at different things and got onto ozone gadgets and got excited at the benefits, Then I saw the price!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o
Makes one wonder what the ultimate set up would cost to install and run?
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That wound on the bekko is an ulcer. It is caused when there is a slight hole/wound in the koi and the bacteria get into it.
Can you scrape and scope the ulcer with a microscope ? If not can you actually remember seeing it being hurt?
If not then assume its flukes causing it and use Telmin.
ONLY USE TELMIN IF YOU HAVE NO OTHER SPECIES IN THE POND JUST CARP
The ulcercan be treated but it requires you to anaesthetise the koi to clean and protect the wound. This will need to be done a few times.
Its quite a complicated procedure the first time you do it but you do get used to doing it and it becomes easier.
You will also need to inject with antibiotics, I can tell you how and where etc
If you wish to give it a go I can talk you through it, what you need, what you do etc.
The second fish from the angle you have taken the pic looks like a grass carp. These are generally friendly fish and can grow huge but are not easily seen in the water because of their colour.
There is no such thing as an ultimate pond as what constitutes the best this year isn't the best next year, but I know what you mean. lol
Mine isn't a special pond, it is unheated (sacrilege) it hasn't got a bottom drain etc but it does have mega filters and healthy koi. ;)
Jackie
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Yeah grass carp is what we bought them as but you never know in some places!
If the ulcer goes un-checked what will happen, we have a few gold fish and 2 golden orfe and the 3 grass carp in the pond too.
We did take 3 to the vet a few years back, cost a lot and we were giving them tablets and iodine swabs but they all died in the end, the ulcer fish seems happy enough but does avoid colliding with other fish.
We never heat the pond either. we just stop feeding at 10c
So what amount of air do you reckon you have going into the koi pond and how many gals is it roughly so I can look at air pumps.
Is that pressure valve really recommended to save diaphrams?
I reckon a piston one would be too noisy from what I have read.
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on the subject of food(koi sticks)
how much daily would you feed say 25 koi plus a few others that are about 14-16" without head or tail??? A breakfast bowl full? or half that?
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If the ulcer goes unchecked the koi will die.
Koi are water bags swimming in water and all that stops the koi becoming water logged is the skin ( and healthy kidneys)
Once there is a wound in the skin bacteria make it larger and then the infection goes throughout the koi system (systemic infection). That this is happening is recognised by red coloured streaks going away from the ulcer, that's the infection spreading :(
Only you will recognise if the red I saw on the pic was infection streaks or thin koi skin showing the koi blood as you know your koi.
Water then gets into the koi's system by diffusion (water follows salt and the koi blood is saltier than the pond water) then the kidneys cant cope with getting rid of the water and so the koi develops dropsy and we see the pine cone effect. Koi looks very rounded with its scales sticking out.
It is not always recognisable as pine coning unless you have seen it before or look very closely.
You can draw out some of the water by putting the koi into a salt solution and upping the concentration of salt once every 3 days, however there is no point in doing this if you aren't going to heal the ulcer or the cause of it really.
I personally think that the ulcer has already started to eat the dorsal fin bone and its a major job to bring this koi back and requires lots of TLC and meds.
As a last resort;
How to put a koi to 'sleep' first knock it out with clove oil mixed in water ( I use MS222 but many hobbyists use clove oil) then bag it in a large bag of water and place in your freezer. Koi then go into topor and die.
I overdose with MS222 for mine. I had a lot of whats called tategoi for experimentation and when the experiment was over I could euthanize if needed. I usually gave them away though. :)
BTW anti biotic tablets dont work with koi as you have already found out previously and I would never take my koi to the vet, any good vet will come out.
Actually my vet told me he will act as my chemist to supply me with any meds (done within the law as Im not a vet) I need as I know more about koi than he does. :)
Treating koi is a specialists job and most vets just dont know about them.
Feeding koi is easy. The rules are; feed as much as your filters can take without changing the water perams.
Rather than feed a huge amount in one go (cos your permas will spike) feed little and often. I feed 4 times per day 3 handfuls of pellets. I wouldnt suggest you feed that amount as you already have water problems.
In other words, koi will eat as much as ever you can feed them (knickname for koi is 'pond pigs') but its your water perams that will go wacko when you over feed.
Hope this helps
Jackie
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Thanks for that Jackie
I will get some clove oil I think, sad but these things happen.
How much oil in a bucket?
Where do you get Dechlor? (and don`t say all good retail outlets!!!!!) ;D
Do you know anything about the amount of air to put in a pond and any experiences of piston types or diaphram, we have had piston/flywheel type and diapham but only indoors before but worried about bits I have read about the noise of pistons!
wonder which are lowest wattage per air output of the 2 types?
Anyone know out there........?
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Andy it doesnt matter if you over dose the clove oil so shove it all in and aggitate the water well as to mix it. Clove oil usually comes in a small bottle.
Buy your dechlor from a swimming pool chemical guy, its much cheaper than an outlet just for koi or a pet shop.
I got mine from a friend (Duncan) and its enough to dechlor the north sea if needed so I have never needed to buy any.
Unfortunatly my husband is working in Scotland and he is the engineer at home so he would know about pumps and O2 ratios more than I do. But Ill try and find out for you.
I do know the optimum O2 to water ratio is 6mg per litre.
BTW you cant actually add too much O2.
Jackie
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ok thanks, thats interesting as one fish site said you can never have too much air in the water!!!
I will try and find out what is best amount.
From reading I think I have been put off piston type air pumps...
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Andy Ive done a bit of phoning around for you and Secoh pumps seem to be a reliable pump with good output and low wattage and are not too expensive.
http://www.koicarp.net/air_products/airpumps/secoh.html
This link explains a lot but you may be able the get the pumps cheaper elsewhere such as E bay.
Hope this helps
Jackie
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Thanks for that, really appreciated.
I have wandered round that link and found a few dead ends(pages not found)
I have emailed them to help me make a decision.
I have used air stones but what it the diff between air stones diffusers and bottom drain difusers??? Anyone use the diff ones???
What food does everyone use and how serious a koi keeper are you?
Would be great to get lots of replies as to different bits used on peoples ponds.
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Yes its a good idea to widen this discussion Andy I was thinking about that earlier :)
It will make a change for everyone if I just shut up now. :-X
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NO don`t shut up! I have learnt a lot in the past week.
I was guessing that there are not many koi owners on A4A by the responses.
Any info can be taken in and digested. Any info on products is always useful.
I have started feeding the fish again, 6 tablespoons a day, slowly does it.
Must find a source or dechlor soon.
Will buy an air pump mid week.
Keep the info flowing as I am sure others are reading it too.
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I use several Kusuri health products for my Koi. Their Ulcer Treatment Kit has everything you could need in future.
http://www.kusuri.co.uk/index.php
Other internet retailers I use:
Richdon Koi - http://www.richdon-koi.com/ + help forum - http://www.richdon-koi.com/koihelp/ (requires registration)
Boddington Koi - http://www.boddingtonkoi.com/
Koizone - http://www.koizone.co.uk/
Koi magazine help forum - http://forum.koimag.co.uk/
Koi Quest help forum - http://www.koiquest.co.uk/forum/
cheers
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I too use Kasuri stuff :)
You can always phone Kevin and ask his advice about his products and how to use them. Hes a nice guy.
This link is great, register and the world of koi is yours for the taking ;D
http://www.koiquest.co.uk/
And with this link you get some really amazing koi
http://www.yumekoi.com/
Enjoy
Jackie :)
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Now youve done it!!!
Ive just spent the last half an hour looking at Mike Snadens koi and
I WANT
I WANT
I WANT!!!!!!!
;D ;)
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Just took Mother in law to northampton and popped into a garden centre and came out with air pump ;D
8 airlines in pond now and working well with 34metres of pipe!
Just cleaned filters and got a bacteria booster which I havent used yet.
Pond still crystal and started feeding again a little bit at a time.
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Andy take that bacteria booster back its waste of money as the bacteria are usually dead by the time you add them.
Get a credit note and spend it on something else. ;D
The very best, and I mean the very best, bacteria producer you can ever have is (for the pedants lol) YOUR KOI! ;D
I am very pleased that you now have an air line and your koi will thank you :)
Which pump did you buy?
Keep a close eye on your water perams if you are feeding ;)
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ok forget the money, is it worth throwing in anyway, will it make a small difference bearing in mind new foam and lava rock meaning its like a new filter?
Or should I give it to mate who has just built a pond?
Refund not worth the fuel to take it back.
Bacteria boost was A.B.A. natural bacteria boost.
pump was Blagdon KA65
2 air stones 5 air balls and an air disc running from 8 of the 12 ports, seems to be pumping fine in various places around the pond.
will do a test in the morning,started feeding 6 tablespoons then 7 and upped it to 12 a day, fish went mad for it.
I figured they needed something even though we cant get dechlor. I figured out that must be a de-chlorinater and if only available from pool guys then it is for people who put too much chlorine in a pool???
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There's a Kusuri Dechlorinator available to order over the net. You must use it every time you put tap water in the pond to neutralise either chlorine or chloramine.
http://www.kusuri.co.uk/shopping.php?class_id=97
(http://www.kusuri.co.uk/files/154_161_Dechlorinator.jpg)
cheers
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Test this morning
PH 7.4 now 7.6
Nitrate 80 then 90 now 40
Nitrite .25 now .10
Ammonia was .25 now safe
Silly question time......
Cleaning the 3 foam layers I squeeze each one in a bucket of pond water and do each one twice, the water is still very green so do I need to do each one until hardly any green comes out?
Does just adding say 10% tape water really do that much harm?
I have never added anything for the tap water in 15years but yes we have lost fish but some are that old too. Learnt a lot on here in the past few weeks!!!
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at high doses the chlorine can kill but smaller amounts will cause irritation and may damage the gills of your fish. The irritation can also cause flashing (when the fish flicks and jerks itself against the sides of the pond) which can damage the protective mucus and fish scales leading to further possibilities of infection. Your water parameters are getting there, ideally the ammonia and nitrite should be undetectable (allowing for the general lack of sensitivity of home test kits).
In the past tap water was treated with elemental chlorine which when added to a pond with good aeration would bubble off the chlorine into the air and out of the water. Now many water companies (check the website of yours) add chloramine which is persistent and can't be removed from water like elemental chlorine and therefore the fish will come into contact with it for longer.
Just to check what in the end did you do with the last chamber? Did you put flocor or some other kind of bacterial support at the bottom with the foams over the top? The foams are essentially for mechanical filtration whereas the flocor is biological filtration. The foams will however become colonised with some beneficial bacteria. So there is a mid-point in cleaning the foams where you wash out most of the detritus however you don't want to clean them too well so that all the bacteria is gone. It's up to you to decide. However the flocor should be the primary source of biological filtration so bacteria in the foams shouldn't be that important. First you might want to do a test and take one of the foams and wash it a third time to see what else is washed out.
For a little further info I recommend Blagdon's ceramic bio media as an alternative to flocor but it is much more expensive.
http://www.richdon-koi.com/shop/?prodid=876
Also if your water is soft I'd especially recommend Lithaqua which is a porous mineral which acts not only as a biological support but also adds carbonate to your water which acts a buffer and therefore inhibits pH swings in the pond water and will help bring stability to your water parameters. In addition the bacteria involved in processing ammonia and nitrite need carbonate as part of the biochemical process they perform.
http://www.richdon-koi.com/shop/?prodid=471
cheers
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Thanks for that, we have hard water here. I put flowcore in the last chamber with the foam on top.
The water clarity is looking good although now the air stones are in it has disturbed some dead areas I guess but that will make its way to the bottom drain.
How expensive are "non at home" test kits then! :'(
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Andy if your friend has NO FISH in his pond tell him to pee in the pond once per day for week. That will season the filter. ;)
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a non at home test kit would be a proper laboratory analysis. They don't cost all that much but necessitate more hassle delivering samples. Otherwise you can buy some pretty expensive electronic testing equipment to use at home.
As for peeing in the pond, I'm not sure that is such a great idea. The easiest way to provide food for bacteria is to simply add fish food to the filter or pond water.
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Im sorry to disagree but urine starts the nitrifying process (nitrogen cycle) by adding direct ammonia ( have you smelt a baby's wet nappy?) but food will just pollute the water and add to the TDS.
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urine doesn't contain ammonia. Urea is the primary result of removing nitrogen from humans. Urea itself is a good source of nitrogen. If you have ammonia in your urine you need to see a doctor immediately because your kidneys are not functioning correctly.
The protein (amino acids) in fish food go through the same process as urea which is mineralisation followed by deamination which results in ammonia.
The other problem with urine, though being sterile, it will pick up bacteria and sometimes viruses from the skin around genitalia and introduce new and problematic cultures to your pond water.
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Normal urine contains water (90%-95%), and organic as well as inorganic constituents. Organic constituents comprise of : Urea, Ammonia, Uric acid, Creatinine, Amino acids, Hippuric acid, and Allantoin. Inorganic constituents are chlorides, phosphates, sulphates, sodium, potassium, calcium etc
The conversion of urea (CO(NH2)2) to ammonium (NH4)+ is a two step process.
When the urea combines with water (hydrolyzes) it forms ammonium carbonate (NH4)2CO3. Ammonium carbonate is unstable and decomposes to form ammonia gas (NH3 ) and carbon dioxide (CO2). The ammonia gas produced is chemically identical to anhydrous ammonia. If the ammonia gas is in physical contact with water, it reacts to form the ammonium ion (NH4)+.
This is why a baby's nappy smells of ammonia and why urea converts to ammonia in the pond.
There are two reasons why I don't suggest Andy uses the food route to seasoning a filter and these are;
1. We don't know if there are any 'dead spots' in the pond where the food would just lie and rot and so cause unwanted pathogens in the pond.
2 The food would add to the TDS and that aint good.
But hey, I'm not arguing with anyone as its not my pond and each to his/her own. :)
Jackie
PS yes I was assuming that the person to pee in the pond is relatively healthy.
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Well the Dechlorinator arrived today so will use it when adding tap water.
I also got 2 more air stones and put in filter...
I popped one down the overflow pipe in 4th chamber so it bubbles under the flowcore but it seemed to be making Big bubbles through the foam so I popped them in the 3rd chambed under chinese matting. I guess the matting is also biological filter rather than mechanical. but it dis-lodged stuff which landed on the foam.
Q: Has it just dislodged stuff that got past the brushes or the biological gremlins that live there that we want???
Also, is it common to have worm things and tiny shell-less nails and small weeny snails in vast quantities in the filter or is all the monsters that do the biological stuff microscopic and cant be seen???
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Hi Andy,
Oh good you have the dehclor, approx 10% water changes weekly from now on then, winter and summer. ;D
The air line in chamber 3 is disturbing the dirt that the matting has caught. Matting is a mechanical removal system (only a little bio). Please remove it or we wil never get your water clear. :D
Just cos you have 8 air lines you dont HAVE to use them all you know lol in fact the pump will last longer if you dont use all 8. ;)
Little red worms in the filter are normal to most ponds but if the worms are brown or black these are usually leeches which are an altogether different story.
Koi love to eat the red worms so feel free to scoop some and throw in the pond.
PS These red worms are generally what is used in the freeze dried tubifex stuff you buy at pet shops.
Koi like to eat the small snails too but I prefer not to see them as they can be an intermediate host for a type of flukes, Sanguinicola inermis, if the snails are infected with the eggs.
Are you sure the "shell-less snails" you have seen are snails and not snail eggs?
Hope this helps
Jackie
PS oh and a tip about how to remove snails without chemicals. Lay cabbage leaves on the top of where the snails are and remove the cabbage in the morning and with any luck you will have harvested a good crop of the snails.
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OK gonna do water change today when I work out the water flow rate.
The air pump has 12 taps of which 9 I am using the other 3 are closed.
What gives on the pump? motor or diaphram?
Is it correct to lift air lines in winter to about a foot above the bottom to keep bottom warm?
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Why do you have to work out your flow rate before you do any water changes?
The motor actually gives out as its always stressed with all the airlines in. I 'allow' 2 of mine to just pump out air with no tubes on, and it hisses a bit but works fine :)
No, no, no, the reason you take out the air lines in winter is because cold water holds more dissolved oxygen (O2) than warm water, not because we don't want to disturb the bottom of the pond.
Water Temperature (F/C) Saturation (mg/l) Koi Safe dissolved oxygen Levels
0/32-- 14.6---10.9
5/41-- 12.8-- 9.5
10/50 --11.3-- 8.5
12/53-- 10.7-- 8.0
15/59-- 10.1--- 7.6
18/64 ---9.4--- 7.0
20/68--- 9.1--- 6.8
23/73 ---8.6--- 6.5
25/77--- 8.3--- 6.2
28/82--- 7.8--- 5.9
30/86--- 7.6 ---5.7
32/89--- 7.3--- 5.5
The air that you would be adding is colder than the water and we don't want to cool the water anymore than it is already is as koi are polykathermic.
Take out the airlines and try to return water UNDER the surface of the water (add extra length of pipe) so that the air temp doesn't super cool the water.
In fact if the water flow doesn't disturb the bottom of the pond we get pathogens, and that isn't good for the fish when they have a low immune system.
Hope this helps
Jackie
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Jackie, I have gone all confused again!!!
The flow rate was for the hose so that I knew what time to turn the hose off after it had put in 200 gals so I could add correct amount of dechlor.
The colder air pumped into pond makes sense so at what temp/time of year do I turn the air pump off?
Take out the airlines and try to return water UNDER the surface of the water (add extra length of pipe) so that the air temp doesn't super cool the water.
We dont get really cold temps but I was guessing that the flowing water stopped the surface freezing?
The saturation bit has confused me though(can you add too much air)?
Would a 1 foot fall of water add that much cold? compared to say a 4ft venturi?
A venturi is still adding cold air(I would guess probably more than I 1ft water drop)
assuming a big deep venturi would work due to lack of gravity fed pressure?
I don`t think I could even start to guess at saturation levels as I haven`t the faintest idea on how to start looking at it and my brain holds no space for the computations!
Andy
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Morning Andy
Duh me! I make my dechlor from crystals, 1 teaspoon per 4 pint milk carton and never measure the amount of dilution I put in the pond cos you cant overdose it so I forgot that most people measure it, Sorry. :-[
Yes to a certain amount the flowing water would indeed prevent the ice crystals packing together on the surface of the pond, however, just imagine that the pond surface freezes over when you are asleep one night and the pump is still taking water from under the ice and returning it on top of the ice on the surface?
The koi will soon have no water.
I have known that to happen to some people but generally they have smaller ponds.
I don't return the water to my pond below the surface for that reason as I know my pond and it wont freeze generally in our winters. I do it cos I want the water to have less exposure to the air temp as I can.
I have never used a ventura but anything that adds cold air to the water is bad news for cooling. I have in the past bypassed any waterfalls with long pipes and several elbow joints.
Because of the design of your pond you can also cover most of it to keep it that bit warmer and if it's black material you cover it with you then grab as much warmth as you can.
Koi don't need the light as they do in the summer as they are in torpor. The colours on the koi, especially the red (hi), will fade a little but will come back in the summer and the light.
Turn the O2 pump off when you stop feeding.
Most ponds and the depth we have don't cause a problem with O2 saturation so no in your pond its fine. Unless you take the pond water from a well more than 10m deep. ;)
I only put that table there so you could see that there are formulae for working out the optimum O2 levels and temps.
Remember I said only take the information that is relevant to you and ignore the rest. ;) ;D
Hope this helps
Jackie
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Wow! And there's me getting stressed because I couldn't spot any baby newts yesterday!
Does the relaxation / enjoyment provided by the keeping of Koi outweigh the apparent stress and complexities of keeping them? :)
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Oh most certainly it does ;D
The water jewels that are koi are so wonderful to see. ;D
Andy only needs to get this right the first season then everything is done automatically and isnt stressfull at all.
Then because his koi will live longer he can be more picky as to which koi he keeps.
Some people just have traditional red and white coloured koi but there is a whole world of colour to choose from. ;)
Besides if you dont learn you die. :D
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Sounds good but I think I'll just stick to my pond-skaters and diving beetles! :)
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I was thinking dechlor was pretty strong stuff at 10ml per 100 gallons so I worked out 2mins 45 secs is 5 gallons, took out 200 from chamber one(5 mins)!!!
I dont think we get cold enough to freeze, it did once and the ice sheet covered most of the pond but not where the water went in. I didnt think running water froze unless stupidly cold? Have seen frozen water falls on glaciers in canada and Alaska.
Not a problem though cos the settlement tank level drops and the pump cuts off when the pond drops a foot.
Some people feed all year as we did once but now we stop when water drops below 10c. Is there any benefit of feeding wheatgerm in winter?
Haven`t really noticed the red fade in winter. That is the first colour you lose whn scuba diving till I turn my torch on of course!
And before someone asks... No I have never got kitted up and jumped in with the Koi although I thought about it to check state of pond and fish ;D
At that depth I could probably sit on the bottom for about 6 hrs taking pics and feeding them! I took a can of sweetcorn diving this year to feed the fish on a wreck and when I got down about 100ft the can had crushed under the pressure! :o
Are there any normal household foods veggies etc that are dangerous to Koi or the other fish?
They love an orange now and then...
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Also, duckweed grows and there is now some in settlement chamber...
Can it end up in the filters and pond or will it stay where it is?
I don`t mind it in there but don`t really want a whole layer on the pond surface.
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Hi Andy :)
Koi are polykathermic which means their body temp is that of the surrounding water and as the water gets colder so the koi system starts to slow down and they cant then digest food so it just sits in the intestines and rots so causing gasses which expand and eventually burst the intestines and kills the koi.
Koi don't have stomachs they have small intestine tubes only so there isn't the expansion room for the gasses.
So the short answer is, no, don't feed your koi anything in the winter. :D
I use wheatgerm food all year round as there is enough protein in it to keep the koi growing slowly but it doesn't spike your water perams too much if you over feed.
I do use high protein food when the koi are sick in the quarantine tank or they are babies, but neither of these are in the main pond.
The red (hi) on koi fade if the pond is covered fully in winter, it will soon return as you unwrap the pond and allow daylight at it. The koi are in torpor so don't need the light.
Lucky you being able to scuba I would love to but I'm just too scared. And I would get in with my koi ;)
The only food I know that is actually dangerous for koi is white bread as the flour to get it white contains bleaching agents, but that doesn't mean there aren't any foods that are dangerous just that I don't know of any.
I wouldn't feed greasy stuff or pastry or fresh fish cos of passing on diseases etc.
Please see the list of things I know koi eat on a previous post, page 2.
Carp in Malaysia are kept in pits under houses and the food scraps are dropped into the pits to feed them, then when big enough the carp in their turn are eaten by the family.
http://www.carp.net/recipe.htm ;)
That stupid duckweed will eventually get through to your pond, it always does, so scoop it out now if you can. ;D
Hope this helps
Jackie
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Thanks for all your help on this subject. Sorted it all out today I hope.
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/peteboatfishpondtest019.jpg)
This was how it was and added advice from links to koi site and did this.
So far so good and I hope it works....
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/filter002.jpg)
(http://http[IMG]http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/filter006.jpg)://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/filter003.jpg[/IMG]
and in the 2nd chamber I did this
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/filter007.jpg)
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/filter008.jpg)
fingers crossed that the toxin levels stay low and the water clear!!!
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pictures didn`t post in order...
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/filter003.jpg)
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/filter006.jpg)
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Oh well, chamber 1 works great as static K1 but chamber 2 was not moving around enough, altered the air by adding tubes with holes in and bubbles great.
blocked the weir from chamber 2 to 3 and put holes in, filled chamber 2 with K1 and started pump. Alas it blocked up and over flowed!!! New modification today should solve it.
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/filter008.jpg)
K1 held down by perspex removed and replaced with something similar to this across the weir but it blocked up.
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/pondweir004.jpg)
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So I changes it all today and it seems to work! few lessons learnt and drilled a hole in thumb in the process and got stern looks from wife for spending too much time on pond rather than allotment!!!
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/tankfishrotimower007.jpg)
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/beckyandy/tankfishrotimower009.jpg)
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Thanks Ishard for your help and pointing me to koi quest for further assistance.
What name do you use on that site?