Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => Allotment Movement => Topic started by: manicscousers on June 11, 2008, 19:34:12
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I think it's something and nothing, but
our site is on land the club lease from the council, we have their permission to put up the polytunnels, someone has said we need planning permission from the council to put one up :o
surely, they are not as permanent a building as a greenhouse or shed, they have no footings either,
I think some nit-picking person who won't come and talk to us is trying to make trouble but I thought I'd ask all of you what you think ;D
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You are right in what you say you do not need planning permission for Pollytynnels, greenhouses or sheds as they are not perminent structures
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I would agree that they are nitpicking too. Check with your council if you are concerned. Don't mean to beat on the down side, but Just keep an eye on poly-tunnel vandalism when they are erected :-\
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well, here's a thing, someone complained about our fence and polytunnels to the environmental people, they HAVE to follow it up and we DO need planning permission, we have until JUNE 20th to get outline planning in :o >:(
when talking to the person, she told us someone has accused us of growing 'all sorts' so it has to be investigated
watch this space ???
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Just because the environmental people say so doesn't mean it is true! They aren't lawyers and will naturally incline towards interpreting matters in a way that suits their and/or the Council's agenda.
There was a landmark legal case a couple of years ago that established that planning permission is necessary for polytunnels, but that only applied to large scale covering of the countryside (we're talking about in excess of 450 square metres here) - particularly in scenic or designated areas. I'd be surprised if that applied to your site even if you are in the middle of a conservation area. I reckon one of you should make a trip to the Citizen's Advice Bureau.
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thanks, barnowl, that's a really good piece of information :)
we're members of the national association so will be contacting them today,
will let everyone know the outcome :-\
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Could be somebody wanting to try to get rid of the allotments? ??? Or a disgruntled ex allotmenteer who has been kicked off? >:(
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no idea who it is, but it's giving me headaches and pushing my blood pressure sky high, Ray suffers from anxiety and depression, you can imagine what it's doing to him >:(
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Hi Manic,
I hope you manage to sort the problem out... without having to remove it! Defo try C.A.B. for advice as Barnowl said.
Seems polytunnels are becoming a real hassel for allotment owners and farmers :(
There has been a lot about them recently in the press regarding planning permision:
(http://allotment5andahalf.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/080508-ndg-polytunnel.jpg)
&
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/6184465.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/6184465.stm)
All the best,
IsleworthTW7
P.s. Someone has built the chap who is fighting the council over his plastic greenhouse a website if anyone's interested: http://www.savejimsallotment.co.uk
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thanks, Isleworth,
been on and off the phone all day, the planning officer reckons we don't need planning permission, the environmental person, (M/S) says we do, we have all the documents now, will have to ring again on monday as the forms criteria don't seem to fit into our situation
wish I'd studied law in school ::)
so, on the phone to nsalg on monday, see if they can make head or tail of it, if we do need pp, it's 70.00 per polytunnel :o
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Manics
This brings to mind the saying about the left and right hand ::)
I would be inclined to go with the Planning Officer and then ask the person in Environment to specify in writing the grounds that they think you need planning permission and do nothing with the forms until you have that.
This sounds like Environment is acting outside of its authority and possibly this person is confused between permits to build and permits to grow things like GM crops (based on the comment they you 'grow all sorts') - so my advice is do nothing until you have some in writing from Environment - I bet they won't put it in writing.......
Keep us posted.
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she says she's working under different rules, town and country planning and she's right and he's wrong !!!..anyway, we'll be in touch with him monday, he seems like a nice feller. he was the one we saw when the club took the land off us and put in a co-decil that we had to have land for allotments,we're having a council of war tomorrow ;D
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The Planning Department will be the experts!
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wish we had an emoticon tearing it's hair out :o :o
got all the forms back, we have to :-
send a design and access statement
include the polytunnels on the proposal
check the AGRICULTURAL holdings certificate
provide elevation drawings of all polytunnels and fence, giving dimensions in a metric measurement
we have 'til july 17th or the planning enforcement becomes involved ??? ???
I'm sticking the National Association on them
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Hi Manics
There was some talk a couple of years ago when I got my polytunnel and had all that hassle with mine. I believe that there was some law in early 2007 re the need for pp for polytunnels and I was panicking a bit as that could have been another nuisance for me - luckily the objector didn't pick up on the planning issue.
What a pain working out all the dimensions all for a piece of paper!
Good luck with it - I am sure that common sense will prevail - what the heck are the environmental people doing getting involved in that - surely they have bigger issues to cope with?
Old Bird
>:(
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we've been in touch today, basically the case has been passed from pillar to post, without details.
The person who is now dealing with it wasn't told the plots had been there for 40+ years, we still have to get planning for the fence and he wants details of all the polytunnels, not drawings.
So, that's a relief, just have to get everyone to give a hand measuring at the weekend :)
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They're certainly giving you the runaround, but that sounds like a much more reasonable approach. Hopefully you won't have trouble getting planning for the fence.
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ok, update on this case, the neighbours were sent letters, they had 'til 15th august to protest, no complaints, the decision date was 3rd september so we rang this morning.
The fence must be painted dark green, that's a lot of paint and will have to be done by hand as people have crops growing inside :o
they will only give 5 year temporary planning permission for the polytunnels as they are temporary 'buildngs'..then we must apply again and pay 80.00 (price at the moment), per tunnel..that means all of us with our own must pay this and apply for permission again, still, the skin will be no good after that and I may not be here.
so, a result, of sorts ;D
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Like you say, a result of sorts. If none of the neighbours complained, who made a fuss in the first place? Weird. Anyway, glad it's sorted. Ask around DIY places/builders merchants etc and see if you can get a donation of paint then organise a communal paint-in.
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luckily, it's our quarterly meeting tomorrow, we have lots of new, resourceful people on the site who work for, and know, firms who could help, good idea, ceres, thanks.
it'll have to be communal, there's lots of fencing and it's got to be inside and out :o ;D
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Best of luck Scousers. ;D ;D ;D
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ta, chuck..we're waiting to get it in writing ;D
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If you have polytunnels for five years, it'll probably be a doddle next time round and you can go for permanent permission. I don't know the law on temporary pemission, but normally, if something's been ther for four years, it's too late for them to do anything about it.
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this is the e mail from N.S.A.L.G. he had to give up when he rang, said it was like 'banging my head against a brick wall ' ::)
Planning permission for Polytunnels on allotments is not required. You should advise the Council that "the use of land for allotment purposes does not require planning permission because that use falls within the definition of agriculture in the TCPA 1990 - see Crowborough Parish Council v Secretary of State for the Environment & Wealden DC (198043 P & CR 229, DC)'. Section 336 Town and Country Planning Act 1990 states in words of few syllables that 'agriculture' includes 'horticulture'
Section 55 (2) (e) Town and Country Planning Act 1990 states that planning permission ,is not required for .buildings occupied together with land used for agricultural (horticultural) purposes. It follows that planning permission is not required.
This is confirmed by the abstract of page 289 'Local Council Administration' 6th edition 2002 Arnold-Baker and Clayden, published by Butterworth ISBN 0 406 952981.
The use of land for agriculture and the use of buildings occupied together with agricultural land is not to be taken to involve development, for which, therefore, development permission is not necessary. This makes development permission for allotments equally unnecessary.
Structures not covered by this rule’s are permitted development.
[This is footnoted by reference to ss. 55 (2) (e) and 336 Town and Country Planning Act 1990,ancfTown and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995 – SI 1995/418].
Part 6 Town & Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Regulations 1995 which talks in terms of planning permission not being required for agriculture (which, it will be recalled, includes
horticulture - section 336 Town and Country Planning Act 1990) buildings. This is again confirmed by the abstract from ‘Local Council Administration'.
Sorry for all of the legal jargon but this should convince the Council that Planning permission is not required. .
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hi all the fact that the polly tunnel is temporary is irelavent. i have recently been through this isue while installing two polly tunnels for projects i am undertaking. the need for planning depends on the hight and the square feet so if its large you will need planning permision. its not good news but better safe than sorry
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hiya, matgill, welcome to the site ;D
well, it's come through, as we were told, we have 6 months to paint the fence, inside and out, 8' high, in this weather !!, here's hoping for a dry winter (yep, as if )
the polytunnels are official, after 5 years, we have to a/take them down or
b/ re-apply for pp.
when the time comes, all the rules may have changed, anyway ;D
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Well great news - a bit of a bummer with the painting fence etc. But at least you can get the tunnel up and running. Brilliant.
When they see how well it works they won't ask for it to come down anyway. Too much like hard work and when something is up there is much more argument for them to leave it and ignore it than to go through the bother of making you take it down again.
Well done it sounds as you are well sorted on your site now!
Old Bird
;D
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we're half way through building raised beds for the less abled in the community, shame the council took £210.00 of the money for it, we're having to wait to get soil 'til we get more funds :-\
still, the rest of the site is getting really good now, 5 on the waiting list and we only have 12 plots/half plots ;D
we'll try the brighter borough fund to top up ;D
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We have a polytunnel 18' x 30' on our allotment, we obtained permission from the parish council.
You do not need planning permission for a tunnel for the following reasons
Planning permission for Polytunnels on allotments is not required. You should advise the Council that "the use of land for allotment purposes does not require planning permission because that use falls within the definition of agriculture in the TCPA 1990 - see Crowborough Parish Council v Secretary of State for the Environment & Wealden DC (198043 P & CR 229, DC)'. Section 336 Town and Country Planning Act 1990 states in words of few syllables that 'agriculture' includes 'horticulture'
Section 55 (2) (e) Town and Country Planning Act 1990 states that planning permission ,is not required for .buildings occupied together with land used for agricultural (horticultural) purposes. It follows that planning permission is not required.
This is confirmed by the abstract of page 289 'Local Council Administration' 6th edition 2002 Arnold-Baker and Clayden, published by Butterworth ISBN 0 406 952981.
The use of land for agriculture and the use of buildings occupied together with agricultural land is not to be taken to involve development, for which, therefore, development permission is not necessary. This makes development permission for allotments equally unnecessary.
Structures not covered by this rule’s are permitted development.
[This is footnoted by reference to ss. 55 (2) (e) and 336 Town and Country Planning Act 1990,ancfTown and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995 – SI 1995/418].
Part 6 Town & Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Regulations 1995 which talks in terms of planning permission not being required for agriculture (which, it will be recalled, includes
horticulture - section 336 Town and Country Planning Act 1990) buildings. This is again confirmed by the abstract from ‘Local Council Administration'.
Pasted from <http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=42858.20>
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we tried it, N S A L G tried it, didn't work and it would've cost too much to take them to court..they've given us 5 yr temporary planning..I might not be there when it comes up for fighting again :)