Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: sandra Riley on April 30, 2008, 10:25:02
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Any ideas how long it takes for really heavy clay soil to improve, OH has dug it over many times since we took our plot over in October, he has dug in loads of rotted down leaves and manure ! The clods of earth he turned over and left on top are now like concrete blocks! Its just a bit frustrating when the seed packet tells you to sow into finely tilled soil!!
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From experience, I'd reccommend breaking down clods when the soil is damp, rather than leaving them in big lumps. We find this improves the mixing through of manure etc and helps to stop the concrete effect. It menas twice as much work whenever you turn over the soil, but worth it. I'm a bit manic about constantly breaking down the lumps.
You can also sow in trenches of compost to give the smaller plants a chance, or like many of us here, start as much as possible in pot s& transplant.
Cheers
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My soil is heavy clay and I have given in and began to put in raised beds.
Wet weather you have liquid mud,hot weather something like house bricks.
:)
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It does improve with time - dig it twice a year and add manure & compost.
How old is your site? And what state was the plot in when you took it on? Our site is on badly-drained London clay and - being originally a Poor's Field - is not the best land in the area! But the site is nearly a century old and those plots that have been in cultivation for a long time have beautiful soil.
And no, I'm not suggesting that it will take you that long to see an improvement!! With the upsurge of interest in allotments, we are now opening up plots that have long been out of cultivation and the soil that newcomers are trying to cope with is grotty in the extreme. But even after a couple of years, the difference is noticeable. We're constantly showing newcomers productive plots and pointing out that a few years ago they were just as bad as the plot they're trying to bash into shape.
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You will see an improvement after many years but in my experience not in a couple of years. :)
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You will only get out of the soil what work you put into to it. if you are not prepared to do a lot of deep digging then don,t complain at bad results.
Three year ago i took a plot next to mine and i have the present one for 30 years, in that time it was never worked, nothing done to it at all I cleared it of all the rubbish and found 30 road cones which you could not see.
When i went to put potato,s in there was no more than 6 to 10 inches of top soil i dug out the trenches with a spit down to 18" back filled with manure trampling it down to spade depth to plant my spud back filled with the soil and kept the clay on the top. I burnt everything of using the Kiln fire method, when my spuds were out i double dug again with the spit filling every trench with with more compost and soil that was left from the kiln. Now after three years of digging, rotorvating and raking i get back all i have put into it.
If you don,t want back ache take up knitting, i am now doing four cardigans a week
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Your obsession sorry skill with all that digging is commendable dear boy,
however you must accept that copious knitting does take up valuable digging time.It is hard to accept this fact but true.
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Even top laying with organic matter will give results (no-dig)... and clay at least has lots of nutrients locked in... not leached out as on sand...
;D
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I wouldn't have bothered with the double digging! If it was really dreadful I'd have dug organic matter in for a couple of years to get it started, then after that I'd just have mulched.
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Good stuff davyw, too few diggers out there nowadays.Bloomin no dig, raised beds etc.more like tireditis.
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If raised beds were good enough for Geoff Hamilton they are certainly good enough for me.
I have done my share of digging but I know when I am beat.I would actually like to grow something.
Also the supply of this constant improver to the soil can be very hard.Some sites have loads of stuff to hand ,others do not.
I resent the inference that raised bed people are lazy.
Why not just accept that people have different ways of tackling problems.
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Good and bad in all, however in my experience the new starters who go no-dig, or raised beds, have a higher failure rate than the diggers.
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Your obsession sorry skill with all that digging is commendable dear boy,
however you must accept that copious knitting does take up valuable digging time.It is hard to accept this fact but true.
BETULA, I love the dear BOY bit thank you for the compliment if ever we meet i will buy you a drink.
I am not knocking the way anyone does their gardening, what i am saying is if you get the hard graft out of the way at the begining then things get easier later if a person is not willing to put a bit of graft into improving the soil and don,t get the results they expect then they do not have the right to complain.
After all if one was to work out just how much digging is done over the year compared to other work that is done its not a lot.
I wouldn't have bothered with the double digging! If it was really dreadful I'd have dug organic matter in for a couple of years to get it started, then after that I'd just have mulched.
ROBERT I think you would have bothered if you Cauli,s and Cabbages were getting blown over because there was not enough soil depth.
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Thanks for all your comments, OH has put in many, many hours digging it over and over, we only have a half plot and we have put a polytunnel at one end!
The allotment site is quite old I think and there are a good few who have worked their plots for years and years and their soil is ok. My spinach is just peeking through, I sowed it in compost on top of the soil, made a bit of a trench.
Its soooo exciting seeing something coming up!!! I fear I am becoming obsessed!
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In my experience men ,however old they are tend to act like boys so you are forever youngLOL ;D
Yes I look forward to that drink,you bring the spade and I will bring the knitting
Happy gardening :)
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After all if one was to work out just how much digging is done over the year compared to other work that is done its not a lot.
Crikey, not on my planet. Can only get up there at the weekends, and not every weekend, so ongoing battle with couch (winning at present) means that digging far outweighs everything else I do.
Depends on your time and your physical fitness and the availability of organic stuff I reckon. I dig, but not sure that I would if I had that kind of soil, and certainly not sure that I always will. Ease off, kids, we all have our idiosyncrasies.
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ROBERT I think you would have bothered if you Cauli,s and Cabbages were getting blown over because there was not enough soil depth.
Surely you don't put them more than a spit deep?
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davyw1
what is the Kiln fire method please
lbb
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ROBERT I think you would have bothered if you Cauli,s and Cabbages were getting blown over because there was not enough soil depth.
Surely you don't put them more than a spit deep?
No before i dug the garden with the spit i had no depth, after it was dug and worked on i then got the depth
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Gardeners years ago used to make bonfires on Clay to help break it down.Ithink this is what he is talking about. :)
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davyw1
what is the Kiln fire method please
lbb
Make a large fire and put on all the weeds, roots with or without soil potato tops. tomato plants any old rubbish then cover it completely with soil old compost and and let it burn away under all of the soil it goes for days. When its cold you can riddle the soil for carrots/parsnips etc. I will be doing one as soon as the rain stops so will try and put a photo on.
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I sometimes wonder if there should be aptitude tests for new plot holders.
Why do people take plots on and build raised beds without a thought for clearing and levelling the site.
Nearly as bad is the dimwits that get a plot and start cutting beds in willy nilly.
Its fairly simple, start at one end, and in one corner and dig the lot.If you don't like hard work, hand the plot back.
Some silly mare the other day started moaning to me that she ached, and had blistered her fingers, she'd only been there half hour.She got the hump when I said give the plot to someone who can hack it then.Bloody lightweights.
A testament to today's culture of instant results, without wanting to put in the hard yards.
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What an ignorant person you are
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What an ignorant person you are
Ta love. The caring sharing group hug piffle I leave for the no-diggers.
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I don't really think that you can blame newcomers who take a plot on after reading glossy magazines and watching Monty Don and friends on telly telling them how easy it is to grow your own and save 3 grand a year in the process.
These people are to blame for the situation, they have a vested interest in promoting gardening and the products that they endorse.
I wish people would take more time however to consider the time effort and cash needed to create a well managed productive environment because if we did we may well see smaller waiting lists and less plots being handed back on a regular basis.
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I sometimes wonder if there should be aptitude tests for new plot holders.
Why do people take plots on and build raised beds without a thought for clearing and levelling the site.
Nearly as bad is the dimwits that get a plot and start cutting beds in willy nilly.
Its fairly simple, start at one end, and in one corner and dig the lot.If you don't like hard work, hand the plot back.
Some silly mare the other day started moaning to me that she ached, and had blistered her fingers, she'd only been there half hour.She got the hump when I said give the plot to someone who can hack it then.Bloody lightweights.
A testament to today's culture of instant results, without wanting to put in the hard yards.
Did you get out of bed the wrong side when you wrote this LOL!! :D
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Agreed Gazfoz.
I get frustrated being asked for advice that isn't heeded and ultimately a waste of my time when the askers give in.In addition my rent increases due to the council offerring rotavating, or spraying of a new plot, following feedback from outgoing tenants that it was too hard work.
I agree that the culprits are the HFW's, Jamie Oliver's, Monty's etc that show week after week transplanting nursery grown seedlings into potting compost raised beds.
Our plots have lost their identity with the fashion conscious newbies.The very same people who bang on about organic, food miles, and global warming.Putting up brand new sheds, and greenhouses.They'd recycle, but by their own admission, wouldn't know where to start taking down a shed or greenhouse.Their ''greenness'' doesn't extend to the company car they bring their ''RTU'' weedkillers to the plot with, which is invariably German, and spotless.
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If nobody ever purchased new greenhouses or sheds there would never be any second hand ones.
What a lot of anger because people are not clones of you.
Times are changing .
Anyone that sees a fault with someone having a clean car is a joke .
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First off love its not anger.
I drive a new motor, which I am pleased to say is a real gas guzzler.I work hard I deserve it.
Its fine to do so, just don't harp on about caring for the planet and all the other crap that goes with it.
I have no problem with people buying new sheds or greenhouses, I was more pointing out that we are being deluged by a group of newbies so daft that they can't even research how to bolt a basic thing like a greenhouse together.
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Why don't you offer to help them then.
A glasshouse is a dangerous place to be if not erected properly.
People learn by other people showing them how.
Incidentally my name is not LOVE!!!!
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Betula, sorry love, but since I don't know you I have to ask.
Admin here ....
I have removed a comment which was not appropriate
Admin gone ...
I've posted saying these people waste my time, why on earth would I help them.
I've dug plots for retired people who have had them years, I've helped single plotholders put sheds up, or unload muck.
I spend my week grafting, I can spot grafters, and I'll help them, but I beggared if I'm gonna put my self out for someone that's not prepared to help themselves.
You really don't get it do you?
Back you go to your fluffy little world where everyone loves one another, and you can spend all day discussing how to do something without actually achieving anything.
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Betula, sorry love, but since I don't know you I have to ask.
Are you retarded?
I've posted saying these people waste my time, why on earth would I help them.
I've dug plots for retired people who have had them years, I've helped single plotholders put sheds up, or unload muck.
I spend my week grafting, I can spot grafters, and I'll help them, but I beggared if I'm gonna put my self out for someone that's not prepared to help themselves.
You really don't get it do you?
Back you go to your fluffy little world where everyone loves one another, and you can spend all day discussing how to do something without actually achieving anything.
Oi Mister....No need to get nasty!!!!
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I will treat that last post with the scorn it deserves.
Retarded.People do not use that horrible word anymore.What a stupid horrible old g*t you are.
I will give you the last word as you are not worth arguing with.
Have a nice day.
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Betula, sorry love, but since I don't know you I have to ask.
Are you retarded?
I've posted saying these people waste my time, why on earth would I help them.
I've dug plots for retired people who have had them years, I've helped single plotholders put sheds up, or unload muck.
I spend my week grafting, I can spot grafters, and I'll help them, but I beggared if I'm gonna put my self out for someone that's not prepared to help themselves.
You really don't get it do you?
Back you go to your fluffy little world where everyone loves one another, and you can spend all day discussing how to do something without actually achieving anything.
Now this is really nasty. Do you just come here to upset people or what? If you're so arrogant you think anyone who does things differently to you is a waste of time, go back to your plot and sulk. I know Betula can sort a plot out with the best of us because I've seen her do it. I've seen plenty fail, and surprise surprise, they were mainly people who came and tried to do it the traditional way. We've got several people using raised beds on our site, and so far, none of them has made a mess of it.
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I'm sorry if it came out as nasty, but what can you do when despite saying repeatedly I dislike lazy people who are too bone idle to invest their own time in finding out how to do something.The same happy clappy, tambourine banging rubbish comes back at you.
Some people are worth helping, most aren't.Fact of life, people who work hard succeed, those that don't find other unsuccessful people and talk about it.
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Now back to the subject of heavy clay ::)
Builders sand smotherd over the plot helps break down the clay and aids drainage. You dont have to dig it in if you dont want as the rain and worms will do that for you, but it will take time.
Then plant spuds as these will break up the soil further
Buy bales of straw and spread that out on the soil too (and or spuds).
Cheap and cheerful.
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I'm sorry if it came out as nasty, but what can you do when despite saying repeatedly I dislike lazy people who are too bone idle to invest their own time in finding out how to do something.The same happy clappy, tambourine banging rubbish comes back at you.
Some people are worth helping, most aren't.Fact of life, people who work hard succeed, those that don't find other unsuccessful people and talk about it.
Go crawl back in the hole you came out of LOVE, as this is a positive site and that kind of attitude is not needed.
Does not matter how people do their plots, its up to them!!!. If they ask a question folk on here answer it to be helpful.
If you only here to slate how things are done, go elsewhere!!!
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Now back to the subject of heavy clay ::)
Builders sand smotherd over the plot helps break down the clay and aids drainage. You dont have to dig it in if you dont want as the rain and worms will do that for you, but it will take time.
Then plant spuds as these will break up the soil further
Buy bales of straw and spread that out on the soil too (and or spuds).
Cheap and cheerful.
Its organic material that'll break it, one of my guys took a plot on on heavy clay, we dumped 14 tonnes of compost on it, and trenched it, seemed to do the trick.
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Albacore, I really wish you would go away. We all work hard, but we don't need to put down people who are only just learning. You're a thoroughly horrible poster and perhaps you should find another board to vent your spleen.
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I agree with bupster - go find another site to vent your spleen. Perhaps one that deals with boats and stuff seeing your user name refers to such a vessel. And you have been thoroughly unnecessarily rude and aggressive in your postings to betula. There is not a right and wrong way of gardening. If you are so good at judging whether someone is a grafter or not then you should be able to work out whether it is worth wasting your time offering advice. Don't talk about digging - go and do it and leave others to offer advice.
twinkletoes
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I'm sorry if it came out as nasty, but what can you do when despite saying repeatedly I dislike lazy people who are too bone idle to invest their own time in finding out how to do something.The same happy clappy, tambourine banging rubbish comes back at you.
Some people are worth helping, most aren't.Fact of life, people who work hard succeed, those that don't find other unsuccessful people and talk about it.
Brute force and ignorancce and bullying are all you seem to understand.
I cannot imagine for the life of me that anyone would speak to you more than once with your way of believing that your way is the only way.
What is it with you? Can you not imagine that some ladies find the initial digging hard work! Are you really saying that you have to start at one end and work your way to the other - what bloody difference does it make if we put deep beds in without levelling etc. Are you so bloody perfect that everything in your garden is so perfect that we should all learn a lesson from you.
I seriously think that you are doing this as a joke - I cannot believe that someone like you still exists. Thank goodness you live in Hampshire and there is not a chance in hell that I would ever meet you driving your gas guzzling car that you worked hard to buy!
I pity your neighbours on your allotment site if this is really how you are! Don't you realise that people like you died out in the '50's and 60's.
Old Bird
:o
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Just to get a little balance:-
People need to understand that there is hard work involved with getting a plot together.
People also need to understand that before you get the Garden of Eden you have to get all the rubbish out of the plot and get the soil up to scratch (Hard Work).
People need to know that they will have to maintain the site in general, mowing, strimming etc. (Hard Work)
People then have to start learning about the plants they ultimately wish to grow and eat and look after them and protect them from wildlife that want to eat them also.
People need to learn about efficient pest control if they want to end up with something on their plate, not sprinkle half a dozen eggshells over a ten rod plot.
The fact is that you don't see any of that on telly or in the magazines because that might put a few punters off and that wouldn't do anything for a Magazines circulation figures or a programmes audience rating. All you see is Monty putting a shop bought plug plant into some virgin multipurpose and saying "Well, thats all there is to it, and in twelve weeks you will be in vegetable heaven"
We need more reality for the newcomers so that they can decide whether or not to take a plot on.
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I think that most newbies realise there's work involved and few expect it to be easy, but you don't realise the extent of the work until you're doing it. Which is why we should support newcomers, not slag them off and belittle them because they're proud of having blisters or want to try a different way of growing things.
As for calling someone retarded because they suggest that helping learners is an improvement on venting contempt, I don't think that sort of abuse is ever warranted. Many of the users on this site have taken on plots in the last few years. Without the tolerance and kindness of others on our allotment sites, and on this site, we might have given up. The kind of "advice" offered by Albacore undermines everything that's worthwhile about allotmenting and about this forum.
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...but there is no need to be rude or dismissive. I think that most people DO know it is will be/is hard work sometimes but it is encouragement that is required when we hit a low ebb not a slapdown. You would not tell a child who is learning to ride his first bike without stabilisers and keeps falling over to put the stabilisers on because you'll obviously never be able to ride a bike otherwise. You keep encouraging the child, that practice will make it easier....in fact as easy as riding a bike..... ::)
twinkletoes
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Albacore sand does break up clay soil, I suggest you perhaps look this up before you tell me its only organic matter that can break down clay soil.
Both work well.
If a person cannot get humungous amounts of compost to work the soil as it is expensive then sand is a cheaper way. I also suggested this was followed by straw so gave the best of both advice.
Clay soil holds nutrients so I would not suggest adding further nutrients with manure as I would consider this a waste of money and manure, just utilise the nutrients already in the soil and sand allows that.
This ladys plot hasnt been worked for a long time so you can bet theres loads of nutrients in the soil
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Sand does work but make sure it is sharp / builders sand.
Apparently composted bark (made from the fine leftovers from the chipping process) is a good additive, but I haven't seen this for sale anywhere.
"Now for the advantage. Clay soils are usually rich in plant nutrients. They also retain much of the fertilizers that you apply. This is because the soil moisture - which holds the nutrients to a degree - does not soak away, taking the nutrients with it. It may evaporate, but the nutrients stay put!"
[gardenseeker.com]
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Bark uses an awful lot of nitrogen, be careful if you use it on leafy veg.
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Hmmm, may well try some builders sand next time I get up lottie as half of it seems to be clay and the other half not.
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If you have a builders merchants that delivers its cheaper and easier to get them to drop a ton actually at your plot. Its when they put the sand in bags it gets expensive cos you pay for their work. ;)
Just asked hubby, a ton of builders/sharp sand is 30 quid here.
Posie you can plant through the sand too, just allow the worms to do their bit and drag it down into the soil and you get less trouble with slugs and snails as they dont like the sand.
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Posie,
You want sharp sand not the red stuff or you may get cement :)
I read about this and the percieved wisdom is that sand is ok as a temporary fix but tends to get "lost" over time.
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Gazfox adding sand will allow the planting of spuds which you know breaks up clay soil very effectivly. :) Manure gets lost too you know ;)
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If there's a local garden contractor who's having to pay to dump dead leaves or grass cuttings at the tip, they'd probably be glad to let you have it and save the money. Either dig it in or mulch, use all you can, and keep going year by year. I find the texture of soil under a good layer of organic mulch is quite different, and far superior.
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Albacore sand does break up clay soil, I suggest you perhaps look this up before you tell me its only organic matter that can break down clay soil.
Both work well.
If a person cannot get humungous amounts of compost to work the soil as it is expensive then sand is a cheaper way. I also suggested this was followed by straw so gave the best of both advice.
Clay soil holds nutrients so I would not suggest adding further nutrients with manure as I would consider this a waste of money and manure, just utilise the nutrients already in the soil and sand allows that.
This ladys plot hasnt been worked for a long time so you can bet theres loads of nutrients in the soil
My Chemistry isn't what it was, by organic I meant adding material to it, rather than covering it with polythene etc.But point taken.
My much criticised comment was raised out of frustration at an individual not understanding my point despite multiple attempts to explain it.I have apologised for that comment.
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Gazfox adding sand will allow the planting of spuds which you know breaks up clay soil very effectivly. :) Manure gets lost too you know ;)
Actually Isarse,
Manure will allow the planting of spuds whilst adding nutrients to the soil that the spuds will love and the ridging and pulling out of the ground and scratching about for the leftovers will break up the clay soil very effectively Not the spuds themselves particularly.
But I know what you mean ;)
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Well !!!!!!!!!!! What a can of worms that opened!! I am sorry I asked !! We are fairly new but not daft and my OH is certainly not complaining about the amount of hard work he has put in, in fact he loves digging ! Better exercise than going to the gym in his opinion. I just wanted hints and tips on breaking down the heavy clay and thank you all for the useful tips, I am however feeling a little awkward about some of the comments it has raised and I am sorry if anyone was offended by other peoples responses. :-[
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Sandra ,please do not say sorry for something that was not in any way your fault.
You will find your own way of dealing with the plot ,It just takes a while to get it going the way you want it. :)
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Just felt really awful about some of the comments that the post raised I am a bit new to all this and I guess asking for advice is what this wonderful forum is all about but my goodnessI nearly choked when I read all the most recent comments, I couldn't help but feel like I shouldn't have asked, where did all that bitterness come from towards newbies etc ! thanks for posting back I was feeling dreadful
Sandra xx
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99% of the people on this site are more than happy to advise Newbies and delight in it for them when their plots take shape.
The remaining people can not accept new methods ,they can not cope if you want to do things different to them.There intolerance and bile is hard to beleave.If you want to dig then dig if you don't want to dig don't dig.
You will soon be on this site giving your own advice to people later down the line.
Enjoy your plot. :)
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Sandra
Good luck with your clay soil - we have all learned a lot from this thread and not entirely about gardening!!
You carry on asking questions as often as you like girl! There are plenty of us old'uns and young'uns that are happy to offer advice, comments and ideas and normally they are sensible!
Hope you have a good weekend where you are!
Old Bird
;)
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Hi Sandra,
Take what you want from the site and leave or laugh at the rest. I for one am off to the lottie after work today to do some hard labour on untouched clay. That'll teach me to wish for the other half of our plot to come to us. ::)
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Such a nice response, thanks for that, we got our plot late last year and we still get excited about going up there, I love it, we waited about 3 years but it was soooo worth it, If you could have seen my face when my spinach had come throught he other day you would have thought I had one the lottery !!
An unusual side effect is..... an unnerving urge to constantly look in skips!!!!!!!!!
Or shrieking when you see a dumped pallett!!! is this normal ?????
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I am afraid it is Sandra ;D
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Glad to hear that, thought I was going mad!! or should I say mad-der!!!! :)
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I am sorry to see that this that this posting has had offensive mesages posted on it and just have to say that albacore i am shocked that any one would resort to suggesting some one had learning difficulties i (cannot bring myself to post the word that u used) because they did not agree with u! my daughter is deaf and has learning difficulty's and has to put up with ignorant people calling her such terms all the time. every one is entitled to there opinion I agree with some of your points such as an allotment is hard work and waiting lists would be reduced ( then i might get a plot) but u seem to think that only your way of doing things is OK and unless Evey one who dose not do it your way fails to grow any thing then there are many ways of doing every thing
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here we go again.
On a number of posts I explained that I help people who try hard.That point was missed every time by the individual, and it was suggested I don't help anybody.Which is incorrect, I help people that I believe will be successful.I do not help people that i think will give up.This ensures I waste as little of my time as possible.
Fair enough, I agree, I should not have used the word I did, and if that has caused you offence, Trinity, I apologise.
The example of a kid riding a bike was used earlier, what if you spent time with say 20 kids, of those 4 learnt to ride.You would become aware of the pattern, and the character of those that were unlikely to master it.Therefore you would focus your time on those that had a high probability of riding, and perhaps coach them to a higher level, because the time you have available thorugh better qualification of the kids enabled it.
As has been said there is no right or wrong, however it would appear there is certainly a slant towards a single approach, favoured by a clutch of individuals.Gazfoz is correct, there needs to be a balance, I haven't necessarily gone about that correctly, and somebody more pc would be better at it.
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No albacore I would not abandon the other 16 people in that group just because 4 had managed to master the art of riding a bike. You would - sorry, the majority of people - would spend more time helping the other 16. You would find out what they were finding difficult to get the hang of and work on that. Are you suggesting that in a classroom of 10 year olds - if some are falling behind in their maths you would leave them to it and concentrate on working with the others who are managing better?.......I don't think so. I really think that you should stop "wasting" your time trying to "help" people here because you really are just "wasting" your valuable precious time.......
twinkletoes
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Hi Sandra and welcome to the board. ;D
Growing things is a passionate business and so some people get passionate about it. Dont worry it will blow over, these things usually do
Actually Im a volunteer in a special school and I would help anyone who needed it, so no Albacore I wouldnt stop helping them. Previously I was a nurse so most of my life has been helping in one way or another. :)
Sometimes when people think they cant do something and they finally achieve it the look on their face is priceless! ;D
As the great Voltaire said " I dont agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
This is what makes us a democracy guys :) Can we please drop it now?
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apology accepted albacore thank u
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Sorry, Albacore, but your analogy doesn't stand up at all. Of course you give more time to those who are finding it harder. The ones who find it easy to ride a bike don't need your help so much.
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We started off digging in heavy soil and ended up digging at each others opinions.
Opinions are like a*&e holes, every one has one whether it be right or wrong it is still only an opinion, so in my opinion perhaps one can help out with getting you people with heavy soil some veg out of your garden this year with what you have available and what you can afford to spend.
Do you have well rotten manure
Can you afford to buy multipurpose compost, loam peat and sharp sand.
Is there any soil available that can be riddled, is there any moles in the area that is pushing up soil, if so collect it.
Can you afford a load of top soil
Do you have the timber to make raised beds.
Tell us what is available from the above and i am sure idea,s will come into people head for you to consider.
For example if you have multipurpose compost or riddled soil and sharp sand, riddle it in equal measures and mix it together. Make a wedge in the soil with you spade " V " fill it with the mix, water it so it drops then add more so it is higher than the soil. in that you can grow carrots or parsnips.
Get the idea.
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The timing of your digging can also help.i.e. get it dug and manured before the onset of winter and leave it rough.
You will find that winter frosts will help to break it up.
In spring just tidy up the top surface prior to planting out and your plants should grow quite well.
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davyw1 - what is riddled soil? I have googled it but can't find much information on there.
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what is riddled soil?
Similar to this;(http://www.thegardenersalmanac.co.uk/Data/Seed%20sowing/01-Seive%20Compost%20to%20remove%20large%20lumps.jpg)
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So the complete opposite to anything on my lottie!!! ROFL ;D
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My first year the soil was all lumps, and full of couch and other horrors. Time and mulching make all the difference, I promise.
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Even without the frosts a bit of rain and weathering and raking makes all the diference
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We were planting Carrots almost in the dark on Thursday as the rain had made the clay workable... in covered with compost and fleece (to stop it capping ? drying out before they come through, and keep the fly out!
;D
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Talking of carrots just done mine or at least my first lot. Here is an option for heavy soil old water tanks from skips
I love skips me
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/stumpinsci/Picture017-2.jpg)
The bath
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/stumpinsci/Picture020.jpg)
Show Carrots
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/stumpinsci/Picture021.jpg)
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Well I have now discovered that the further down my plot you go, the more the clay appears. After digging through this to put my dwarf broad beans in I now fully intend to go and buy lots of sand cos my bloody back is killing me!!! ;D
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I too have clay soil but have ( thankfully) a lot of memories of my grandfather and my dad cultivating their gardens ( we were almost self sufficient for most of my childhood) so am not going into cultivating my VERY over grown clay bound allotment with rose tinted glasses. It HARD work and i have nothing planted yet but...give me a few weeks and some decent dry days plus hours to actually be there ( I work in a residential home for adults with learning difficulties and work long shifts) and I'll get there and you know what? even if i only get my potatoes into the ground this year I'll be thrilled. :) If they grow half as well as the blinking weeds are at present then my crop is gonna be huge!!! ;)
No offence Albacorn( sp?) but surely the folks visiting this site ARE actually seeking knowledge not some easy fix or they wouldn't be here asking questions.
I understand your frustration at some folks not readily accepting your way of doing things which appears to be the way both my grandfather and father did their gardens but if the only visual offerings for newcomers these days to allotments is someone telling you to 'no dig' a plot in order to get something out of it this year ( aka the allotment videos )without telling you that tthis is because there is a school of thought that feels the 'digging' method may actually be causing long term harm to the soil layer in general or tell you that allotments and gardening is HARD work to begin with then yes, do go off on a tangent but please no upsetting people :(.....lets just accept that everyone on this forum, and many other forums like it, are seeking advice and knowledge and that there are many many ways of doing things these days...if the plants thrive and the soil is good then they all must be right even if we think it wrong or strange...personally I am having raised beds and also dug beds ( bit of both ;P) and I'm not afraid of the hardwork it will all entail although I reserve the right ,as a woman, to complain that I have broken x number of nails and also have blisters and/or a sore back at times or to moan and seek solace on this forum when I feel like giving up coz a humungous slug festival has demolished all my seedlings after I eventually get around to planting them. It's all about manners and allowing each person to seek advice and make their own decisions at the end of the day. Not about making assumptions and then insulting or upsetting folk.
BTW to the person who initiated this thread. Liming your soil helps clay soils by binding the fine particles together too and if I remember correctly as you rotate your crops the next years brassica bed is the one that you Lime prior to the winter setting in so gradually the whole site will get it's dose of lime and improve :) Lots of manure and leaf mould helps but it is gradual :) or you could do as I am going to do this autumn and lime the whole site barring where my next years potato bed will be ;) Don't lime a site less than two weeks prior to planting as it really burns plants and seedlings in it's raw state and needs time to be washed in :)
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Hello folks, its my first time and I was going to ask for advice on how to deal with heavy clay ! WOW !! did I get an answer!
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Welcome to A4A ;D ;D ;D
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;D ;D ;)
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Welcome to the asylum Geordie, you certainly joined on a fiery subject now can we all be nice, come on the suns 8) out for christs sake. ;D ;D ;D
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hiya, geordie, nice to meet you ;D
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An approach I used on heavy clay in the past...is to rotovate 10 mm peabeach into the soil in the autumn/winter with compost /manure....................I,m not taking about a dozen bags of peabeech...................on a 10 rod plot I would use about 10 cubic metres
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Thanks for the welcome, you all seem to be very nice people(apart from one) as I would expect from the rare breed that we are.
good to see so many people coming to the ladies defence .
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Hello Geordie welcome to the sight a real shame about the link but on the whole Ive found almost everyone to be real diamonds who have really helped me out a lot. :) ;)
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What's peabeach, grit?
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Pea Beach
A commonly used term for 20mm single size gravel, particularly from marine sources where material is naturally more rounded.
http://rugby.cemex.co.uk/crossproductpages/GlossaryP.asp
I would stick with adding organic matter myself I've already got enough ffycin stones.
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20 mm is OTT and not what I,m on about for keeping heavy clay open..........10 mmm has proven good for me regarding that problem...Compost/manure is essential too,of course....thats a "forever after" requirement for fertile soil
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Hi Sandra, I started my plot about 5 years ago and it is heavy clay which I have dug and added straw and manure each year, this has improved it but I wanted to see what other people were doing so came on this site.
I am very pleased you asked the question and had you not then I would have,
I for one have got a lot of help from it.
I am now interested in raised beds (I have got mine on 3 bricks but Mrs GB doesn't like it as she finds it hard to get in, can some one explain how this works please)and mulching (don't tell Mr Grumpy).
Seriously though, I think this is the way I will go.
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Lots of organic matter will improve any soil, but I wouldn't want 20mm gravel in it! Liming might help. Nutrients are held on the clay minerals in a loose chemical bond, but when you add calcium it replaces them, so they're released and become available to the plants. It won't change the texture though.
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Wouldn't you PH test the soil before liming or would you lime the Brassica bed as a matter of course for club root prevention?
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Hello Geordie... ;D
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I'd probably do a pH test, but lime's unlikely to do any harm, and as I say, it will release nutrients from clay.
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i didn't really believe in clay soil until i moved here LOL. now i certainly do and thanks for the tips here, i just wish it would come off the spade after every dig.
personally, on the topic of the aside, people have busy lives and want their plot to be manageable in the time they have so they may go for the lower work options to help them acheive this. I don't think it makes them lazy, just the way a new type of allotment gardener can manage the work. Be thankful they're out there with the TV shows and raised beds at least allotments have a high profile and while in demand are a bit less likely to be built on.
I wish i could get a plot here though, even if it is on clay - i miss my allotment.
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Has anyone mentioned using spuds to break up the soil? Even if you won't eat them all, they do a great job, are much quieter than a rotovator and inhibit weeds as well. Bound to be some left over seed potatoes around the place that people will let you have. Don't have to bother with trenches - dib holes and drop them in then put a layer of mulch / compost down. At the end of the season after digging them up leave the bed rough - more surface area for frost to get at.
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I have done a couple of raised lasagne beds on my plot over the years on top of my wet clay. (Basically layers of good stuff, on top of cardboard!)
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/1999-04-01/Lasagna-Gardening.aspx (http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/1999-04-01/Lasagna-Gardening.aspx)
They have worked a treat!
In fact finished another one yesterday, covered it in black weed supressing membrane, and am going to try squash through it for this year, by next year hopefully wonderful soil! ;D (well in that bed anyway!)
Having a clay base is certainly interesting............have double dug, added compost, straw, sand, shredded paper,manure etc. etc. over the years, and it is starting to get there....but still no "fine tilth"!
Good luck with whatever you choose to do, tis all a learning curve! ;)
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Hi all
Thought I'd revive this one. I got my plot 12 months ago and have dug over to remove bind and couch then created raised beds and tried to dig in organic matter twice a year. So far I am convinced the soil is changing (for the better) and will be intrigued to see how it is when I clear further beds for the winter. I am planning to dig in manure/compost this autumn then maybe do the same or lime in spring, depending what manure/compost I have. Some beds are better than others and I've also dug in a little sand and grit if any is given to me so I think it is all helping!
Love to hear what everyone else thinks and are they aslo making progress?
Psi
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Blimey I just read some of this thread!! The title attracted me to it as I took on a plot that is on clay. And basically I still have soil envy but things are improving ;)
I'd say after nearly 2 years I'm starting to make some progress and improvements to the soil structure. The 1st year I grew mainly spuds, a few beans, courgettes and squash and the soil where I had dug the couch and weeds out, cultivated and manured has improved. Its now visibly smaller lumps of clay ;D
This year I also made sure I smothered and covered bare soil with grass clippings, straw, shredded paper and cardboard - it kept the weeds down, it kept much needed moisture in and will be dug in over winter, and will be interesting to see how successful those areas are next year.
I also added blummin tons of manure to a large area where I grew the pumpkins then covered it with weed suppressant - I'll be digging that area over during winter so will see the results with next years spuds.....
I've started doing some trenches with the kitchen veggie peelings so will see how this goes - thinking of growing my beans in that area next year
I grew carrots in crates made up of topsoil from a friends garden and sharp sand - very successfully and have added the contents of the crates to various parts of the plot
At the moment my motto is anything organic I can throw at the plot will bound to help ::) ;D