Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: Tyke on April 17, 2008, 22:54:15
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I got a new allotment this year...and i mean new. It used to be a field that has not been cultivated previously. It is heavy clay soil and was waterlogged throughout March with frogs in the puddles. I drained it by digging a trench all around and the dry weather helped.
I have double-dug 2 beds. There are lots of woody black roots in all areas of the plot. The only perennial weeds i could see were 3 docks and a few creeping buttercups. The rest was grass - i have been told that it is rye grass.
The top soil had at least one of these roots in each complete spadeful. They also went down to the sub-soil and one root was 2 foot long.
Should i be worried? My thoughts were that it was probably the roots of the grass. But i don't know if it can sprout from these again.
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I didn't think rye grass rooted that deeply, it's an odd one. Couch grass would be white, so it's not that. Perhaps there used to be something else planted there?
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Could it be.... dare I say it.... I'll whisper... mares tail
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As far as locals are aware the field has always been fallow. There is a small apple tree at one end and a small amount of blackberries at the far end, but the roots are everywhere!
No sign of mare's tail (from photos of it above ground) anywhere on the site - hopefully!!
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(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o152/avm777/2008-03-19-Allotment-003.jpg)
This is a photo of the site in March before i started work on it.
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It probably is horsetail or mare's tail if it goes that deep.
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Oh dear. Some people on the site have rotavated the entire plot! Ouch.
It hasn't spouted yet. When should i expect it to show itself above ground??
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Mine is just begining to rear it's ugly head.
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I've just been googling mare's tail. The roots are meant to be thin. These are quite thick and black. Quite tough and woody too. I've trod over every bit of the plot in wet weather so i might have squashed the shoots for now...
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sounds like mares tail to me too. The stuff in my garden has long 1cm thick woody black roots - it should be rearing it's head about now :(
barkingdog
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ah well, so much for the flower and herb beds i have dug out. Still, some people seem to be able to work with it.
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Sounds very much like mares/horse tail. The stuff is really old - dinosaurs used to eat it - so it survives quite well. We have had it since we started 10 years ago; gradual weeding out and applying systemic weedkiller keeps it under control but to get rid of it completely is difficult. If you use weedkiller, don't just spray it on, rub it into the leaves using rubber gloves.
I've learnt to live with it, it is quite pretty in small doses. Good Luck.
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Black roots like that suggests nettles to me.
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Nettles have piss-yellow roots. Horsetails were old when the dinosaurs appeared; they were at their height when the coal seams were still standing forest.
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Comfrey has thick, black roots. Could it be that? ???
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Sounds like marestail.
You'll see little yellow mushroom like tips pop up , these I believe spread spores, then the asparagus like fronds later.
Don't believe all the crap about roundup or dax killing it.It won't.Neither will mixing roundup with a wetting agent, or washing up liquid to break the waxy coat.
mulching won't stop it either.
The only way to get rid of it is to dig it out.You can't fanny about at that either, you need to get bust the subsoil, or it'll hide there, or under the harder layer.
I love getting the stuff out, but then I love digging, nothing I'd rather do than dig.
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This is a photo of the site in March before i started work on it.
I am an eternal optimist so I hope I am wrong here.............I think your plot suffers from 'flooding' and is quite possibly badly drained as the picture suggests!
As far as locals are aware the field has always been fallow.
Could you ask them if it tends to flood, this might be the reason it has remained fallow for so long i.e. no one wants it.
As I say I hope I am wrong.
Try digging a hole about two foot square and at least two feet deep and see if you get a build up of water.
If it waterlogged ground this hole will probably fill up with water overnight, or even sooner.
I would ask the question and do the test I suggested.
It would do no harm to ask other plot holders what they think and how they find their plots
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I am getting the feeling that my worst fears are proving correct - Horsetail/marestail, although nothing sprouting so far. From what i've read, heard on this site and googled about, there is no consensus on how to manage it - some say use weedkiller, other's say it don't work Some say hoe and mulch. Part of the fun of having an allotment is experimenting i suppose.
The site was very flooded in Feb/March. I dug a trench around it and the frogs have left, although i get pond-skaters in the trenches at times! I think that we get run-off from a farmer's field at the top end over a train-line. The trenches had a trickle ofclear running water for about a week. It is drained enough now that i can stand on the surface without sinking - a nice feeling.
It was known as a flooding problem by locals - especially on our side of the field. It was so bad that the council dug a deep drain on the grass verge outside - but nothing in the field! The top inch of soil is like concrete at the moment - i had to empty a trench of water in order to dig one bed! I'm hoping that the drainage trench might stress out the weed.
I'm impressed with the amount of activity on this site...
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Sounds like marestail.
You'll see little yellow mushroom like tips pop up , these I believe spread spores, then the asparagus like fronds later.
Don't believe all the crap about roundup or dax killing it.It won't.Neither will mixing roundup with a wetting agent, or washing up liquid to break the waxy coat.
mulching won't stop it either.
The only way to get rid of it is to dig it out.You can't fanny about at that either, you need to get bust the subsoil, or it'll hide there, or under the harder layer.
I love getting the stuff out, but then I love digging, nothing I'd rather do than dig.
You like getting the stuff out? You've made a niche for yourself!
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it's true, Roundup doesn't work but Deep Root does, if you can get hold of it now - som EU rule I expect.
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Did you successfully tame it with Deeproot?
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Why does the area flood? Is it a case of a stream overflowing, surface runoff whith nowhere to go, or what? Once you can find the cause, you're halfway to knowing the solution.
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Did you successfully tame it with Deeproot?
More a case of slowing it down but much much better
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Why does the area flood? Is it a case of a stream overflowing, surface runoff whith nowhere to go, or what? Once you can find the cause, you're halfway to knowing the solution.
Just very heavy clay soil i think. I probably need to explore the other side of the traintrack - up the gentle hill. Can't see a stream, but it was trickling down for days. No water on surface of my plot nw though - after building trenches. When i double-dug the beds i found it really difficult to fork over the sub-soil. It created a scraping noise on the fork and i had to jump on the fork to get it in....
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When i double-dug the beds i found it really difficult to fork over the sub-soil. It created a scraping noise on the fork and i had to jump on the fork to get it in
This sounds a bit like our plots, the surface water runs off the hill on the top of a rock bed under the topsoil.
The rock tends to undulate and form hollows and these 'pond' up and fill with surface water. If you have an indentation under your plot you suffer water problems if you have a hump under it, you are relatively free of problems.
Like you we have a disused railway line up hill of our plots which in pre Beeching days was well maintained but after his action is was not, hence our problems.
To try and over come the problem I dug a trench down to the rock on the 'uphill' elevation of the plot, and down the lower side of the plot.
Then I scrounged pipes of any description from demolition sites etc and placed them in the bottom of the trench. This took away the heaviest of the flow meaning my plot dried out much quicker.
In the end all the plot holders got together a dug one long ditch along the upside of the plots and directed the flow into a culvert we found.
I am pleased to say this has worked and the plots are now more or less free of flood water but it was 'bl***y hard work getting it that way.
I only thought I would mention all this because your predicament sounds like the one we had.
Best of luck in what ever you do!!
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You may need a major communal project like that yourselves. Meanwhile, try to find a source of large quantities of organic matter - do you have a local garden contractor who'd be glad not to have to pay to dump leaves and dead grass at the tip? Dig it in in large quantities, or mulch thickly with it, year by year, and you'll soon improve that soil beyond recognition.
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It's only a small plot - 20 odd allotments and brand new - although all plots are taken. We don't yet have any allotment association, although everyone i've met seems friendly and helpful.
I think that it might have been better for the council to dig the plot with machines and provide lots of compost cheap at the beginning, but our council don't sell or give away compost. Still it gives us something to do! Also, there is no water supply yet - although taps are on the site plan. The mini-ponds i've made will come in handy.
Glad you managed to sort things out on your plot with trenches. I was skeptical that it would be a long-term fix. I'm using raised beds with rotted horse-manure to help the soil.
I had it confirmed by someone local this weekend that the field is infested with horsetail! However, she didn't sound that worried as the area around is the same and gardeners survive. Makes me feel better.