Allotments 4 All
Allotment Stuff => The Basics => Topic started by: posie on April 06, 2008, 20:04:33
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I know that you can't use the product of this on the veg patch, but was wondering if anyone had used one on their flower beds at all? I've got 2 springers that we clean up after every day and this seems like an ideal way of getting rid of their waste rather than blocking up my loo or putting in bags in the bin?
This is the one I was looking at
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Dog-Poo-Wormery-The-Worm-Tower-Composter_W0QQitemZ350045115522QQihZ022QQcategoryZ75665QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Do you mind, I'm just about to eat >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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sounds good but I'd worry about putting it on the garden, don't know why :)
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My apologies Asbean! lol ;)
Well my darling springies seem to delight in doing it all over what little earth there is in my garden anyhow manics! I don't have small children and they're regularly wormed and vaccinated too, but as yet I'm undecided.
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it's just the thought, posie, can't say why..we had a bin that we buried in the ground, bought stuff to put in , it dissolved the dog poo..it went horrid, I think our soil is too clayey..wouldn't drain away :)
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Ah i c. Well my garden only consists of 2 x 3ft high walls with a 1ft gap in between filled with soil and a lot of pots dotted around so thankfully the drainage is pretty good on it. The smell of it is what worries me the most I suppose once its in liquid form and ready to pour on.
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well, if u get one, let us know what it's like, our staffie produces much more than she eats ;D
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Vermicomposting is effective in reducing pathogen levels in biosolids as shown here: http://www.vermiculture.ca/articles/pathogen_stabilization.htm
Essentially that means you can use worms to compost any fecal material dog, cat, human or whatever else you wish to compost & once the worms have finished with it it will be safe to use in your garden even on the veg patch.
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How about the poor worm??? :o :o :o Or are they not affected?
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There are no adverse effects on the worms they are just as happy to live in dog manure as they are to live in a heap of horse manure they are not affected by any pathogens the manure may contain. Their food supply will regularly be topped up & they will be protected from predators if it is all kept in a wormery.
The only possible adverse effect would be if manure from a recently wormed dog was added to their food supply as it is likely to contain traces of a drug which would kill them. Therefore it would be best to discard all waste the dogs produce within 2-3 days of being wormed to avoid risk of contamination.
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Hi Guys and Gals
I was under the impression that you should not use poo from meat eating animals on gardens. That's why its OK to use horse, cow, rabbit and chicken manure etc. If dog poo could be incorporated safely that would be great news for me as our two dogs seem to produce loads and we bag it and put in the bin.
What with rumours of local councils charging for rubbish collections by weight to encourage recycling we would get hammered as a sack of $h1T is rather heavy and you sure know when there is a weeks worth in there. Heaven knows how heavy it would be if the council did fortnightly collections.
Michael
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All organic matter is compostable it is simply that manure from meat eating animals requires different methods to compost it than manure from vegetarian animals.
To get an idea of how the different methods required work have a look at the humanure handbook, you can download a free copy from their website HERE (http://jenkinspublishing.com/humanure_contents.html).
There is also a thread specifically about composting dog manure on a composting forum HERE (http://www.csimba.com/compost/viewtopic.php?t=22&sid=f19397b96630b4a8548ea3bc8bec71b4), please note it comes with the following warning:
WARNING: This post includes lots of language offensive to those that perpetuate the supression of the original anglo-saxon language the fornicating normans started long ago upon their invasion of england.
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;D ;D ;D. I like the warning Baccy man,
Just to add.....we have compost toilets at the farm, the resulting compost will be used in the future on fruit trees in the orchard.
I do think the dog compost will be safe to use, though to be honest its just the thought of including it in the veg beds. I would use it on top fruit, peas, beans and other stuff you dont harvest from underground.
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Remember the Chinese maintained their soil for millennia, partly by putting their own manure on it. It doesn't harm the soil, the danger is disease, particularly worms.
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I know this is interesting and valid - but I wish I had never read this thread :o
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Remember the Chinese maintained their soil for millennia, partly by putting their own manure on it. It doesn't harm the soil, the danger is disease, particularly worms.
The problem there was that the Chinese 'night soil' was uncomposted therefore still contained millions of pathogens if it had been appropriately composted it would of eliminated them & been safe to use. Worms are capable of eliminating some very nasty pathogens for example toxoplasmosis most frequently found in cat manure which would normally require the compost heap to attain temperatures of at least 160ºF for a minimum of 5 minutes during the composting process to destroy it. So vermicomposting is probably one of the safest ways to compost pet waste in a domestic situation.
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Every few years the farms next to our town fertilise their fields with treated human sewage. It absolutely stinks, and creates no end of comment in the place, even to the extent of shopkeepers putting notices up in their windows explaining what it is. And advising where to send any complaints. ;D
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Phew, glad I don't live in your town Denbee! Actually that above all things is my main concern, I don't want to annoy my neighbours with whiffy pongs. Well I don't want to annoy one of my neighbours. The one next door but one can be as annoyed as they like cos if it stinks then they won't sit in their garden with the music blaring so loud I have to leave mine and lock myself in my house! Grrr >:( Apologies to all who have been eating their dinner whilst coming across this post! ;D
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Ray's decided we will try one, I feel like you, awful putting plastic bags full of muck in the bin..so, next week, we're getting one ;D
thanks for the link
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I think if all dogs were fed quality raw food instead of the gunk and who knows what that goes into pet food then composting it would be no problem - just my tuppence worth :D
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Ok this looks like a great idea. I have 5 questions:
Are the worms used like the ones you get in horse manure? (brandlings?)
Do I have to touch them?
Does my nose have contact with the decomposing smelly stuff?
Or (question 3a) does it pong?
Is the end product easily removed and used?
Will it turn my stomach every time I approach?
I'm awfully sqeamish you see. So go on!! Persuade me!
The theory seems really excellent and much better than bunging bags of dog poo in the bin or even in the compost heap (always a bit worrying that one!)
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I thought there was a risk of diseases being carried by faecies of animal eating animals, if that makes sense. Bob Flowerdew certainly always recomends against it. To my mind it is a risk not worth taking. I guess once composted it would be OK on shrubs and trees that do not bear fruit. Although if safe it must make sense to use it for something.
I admit I have not read any of the links by the way.
I suppose if you know what the animal eat it could make a difference but how many of you totally feed your dogs meat you caught yourself. We occasionaly feed whole rabbits but are carefull to keep up the worming regime as it is essential then.
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I would use it on my home garden where there is no veg and since the dogs poo under the fruit trees anyway there will already be residual stuff there.
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Yep it's definitely just for normal garden stuff, flowers and what nots, not for anything that may be used for human consumption.
Ok this looks like a great idea. I have 5 questions:
Are the worms used like the ones you get in horse manure? (brandlings?)
Do I have to touch them?
Does my nose have contact with the decomposing smelly stuff?
Or (question 3a) does it pong?
Is the end product easily removed and used?
Will it turn my stomach every time I approach?
I'm awfully sqeamish you see. So go on!! Persuade me!
The theory seems really excellent and much better than bunging bags of dog poo in the bin or even in the compost heap (always a bit worrying that one!)
As far as I can tell: yes it uses the same worms, no you don't have to touch them (according to the sellers), don't know to question 3 or 3a (that's the one I'm thinking about - although I do intend to email the sellers and check that with them), end product is easily removed via a tap in the bottom for the liquid stuff (has to be diluted 50/50 with water) and there's information that comes with it that tells you how to remove the castings etc, should imagine it could get a bit whiffy when lid lifted, but then if you're quickly bunging it in I don't suppose you'd notice it that much?
Let us know how you get on with it manics - my grant cheque in on weekend (yippee, yippee!) so I may think about getting one, definitely getting one for normal organic waste.
I think if all dogs were fed quality raw food instead of the gunk and who knows what that goes into pet food then composting it would be no problem - just my tuppence worth :D
Totally agree with Calendula, but put both my springies onto raw diets, gradually over a month and they were horrendous, always hungry no matter how much I fed them, always fighting, and had awful stomachs, so now they're on Tesco premium complete biscuit. They were on Bakers (now renamed Bonkers! in my house) but that was awful. But my previous dogs were fine on raw diets, suppose it depends on the dog really.
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those are really good questions, grawc..our dog is the same and we would only use the fertiliser in the flower garden..anyway, ray's made up his mind..watch this space, what about it, posie, have you decided ?.sorry for hijacking the thread but thanks for letting us know about it ;D
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Not hijacked it at all manics - definitely swaying towards the idea. I want a normal wormery as well, that can go onto the allotment, the dog one can go on my garden then. I spose now I've given up the smokes then really speaking I can buy both! ;D
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it's got to be worth trying, can't smell worse than comfrey liquid after 3 weeks ;D
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Aaaaaaarghhhh Manics! :o :o :o :o :o :o
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In the old days, EVERYTHING including the household waste, soot and ashes from the fire, went into a big pit and then got covered over and was left as fallow then ploughed in and planted on.
Salmonella was found in strawberries because the farmer used the waste from the compost toilets on them, I read about that few years ago. It was abroad of course, not here.
Some one did tell me that they kept a bucket with some Jeyes fluid in and used that to sterilise their dog's poo. Then used it on the flower bed.
Local cats leave deposits in my garden, where I grow flowers, the plants never seem to take harm. Is cat poo different to dog poo?
If you think about it. All sorts of animals and birds must do it in fields all the time.
My dear old dad used to get a trowel, pick up the cat poo, left on his lawn, by other peoples cats and chuck it in the council bin with household waste.
Get rid of the dog and buy a goldfish. They don't need to be taken for a walk.
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.......end product is easily removed via a tap in the bottom for the liquid stuff (has to be diluted 50/50 with water)
That is not the end product it is leachate the wormery should only produce a few ml per week if any at all. If you are producing more than that you need to add more dry materials to absorb the excess liquid & correct the moisture levels. The end product is the worm castings.
Some bin manufacturers suggest that the liquid that drains out of a worm bin is compost tea. Bin instructions sometimes encourage worm bin users to pour water into their bins to get more "worm tea", as it's called. Unfortunately, this is leachate, not tea, worm tea is the water in which worm castings have been steeped in. It's a common misunderstanding. This leachate contains only a very small percentage of the nutrients and microorganisms of tea, as well as a significant amount of undecomposed organic matter, that will quickly cause the liquid to turn anaerobic. Be careful, and only give this liquid to your plants if it is still aerobic (your nose will tell you), and don't pour water through worm bins. Use only finished stable vermicompost and follow specific tea-making instructions.
Some of the confusion regarding whether or not to use leachate results from the current popularity of "compost teas" and "castings teas". To ensure we are all on the same page, "teas" are defined as a steepage generated by placing finished, stable compost and/or worm castings in water; some people agitate the water, some don't; some aerate the water, some don't; some add nutrient solutions to amplify the biology, some don't. Regardless, "teas" all use as the substrate from which the initial biological community, nutrient and other chemistry are extracted, finished, stable material.
Leachate, on the other hand, is liquid that drains from an actively decomposing mass of organic matter, thus it is liquid that is in contact with undecomposed material in the system. It is this factor, coupled with the cause for liquid to be draining in sufficient quantity that it can be collected, that creates concern.
Composting and vermicomposting are processes understood to destroy or at least significantly reduce pathogenic organisms, typically rendering their numbers suficiently low to pose little threat to human health. Because leachate drains through material that has not been thoroughly processed, however, pathogens like e-coli and salmonella associated with household organic waste and even garden waste can potentially be picked up in the leachate and contaminate the surfaces of fruits and veggies to which it is applied. It's important to understand that the concern is not that plants might take these pathogens up through their systems, but is a concern over surface contamination of garden produce. Those who choose to use leachate on edible plants are encouraged to wait several weeks after application before harvesting to ensure pathogens have died off before produce is eaten.
Water is generated by the composting and vermicomposting processes as well as being released from organic matter as it is broken down. In most healthy worm bins and compost piles the released moisture is absorbed by the the surrounding organic matter, thus little water drains freely from the system. A healthy worm bin, for instance, generally produces little more than a few ml of liquid per week. A system from which liquid is draining freely is typically a system that is saturated, thus, it can hold no more water. This is of concern because the water saturating that system is displacing oxygen, setting up conditions favorable to anaerobic microorganisms. Even if there are no significant odors, very wet compost piles and worm bins tend to have significant levels of anaerobic activity. The by-products of anaerobic decomposition, phenols, terpenes and alcohols, are water soluble and are toxic to plant roots, thus leachates often contain significant concentrations of these phytotoxins though there is no outward evidence of such. These leachates applied to plants often cause damage and can even kill sensitive plant species or plants treated with leachate with significant levels of phytoxins. To be sure, many people use leachate with excellent effect, but for every leachate advocate whose garden sees tremendous benefit I can introduce you to someone who killed or weakened their garden with leachate use. It's a risky thing using leachate. Many people will dilute the leachate (the general recommendation is 10 parts clean water to one part leachate) which often does remediate problems, but dilution also tends to dilute the benefits, rendering the stuff little more benefical than plain water.
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thanks for the information, Baccy man, more to think about :)
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For what it's worth I would still say the wormery is a good idea as you get to turn your pet waste into worm castings which are one of the most desirable types of compost. I would be perfectly happy to use worm castings produced from pet waste on my veg rather than just on ornamentals however I would advise caution with any leachate produced. In my wormeries I get 1-2 teaspoons of leachate per week & I just add it back in to the top of the wormery. I don't use it as fertiliser when it's run through kitchen scraps & I certainly wouldn't use it if it had run through pet waste.
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.......end product is easily removed via a tap in the bottom for the liquid stuff (has to be diluted 50/50 with water)
Some bin manufacturers suggest that the liquid that drains out of a worm bin is compost tea. Bin instructions sometimes encourage worm bin users to pour water into their bins to get more "worm tea", as it's called.
Hmm, that's the impression I got. Ah well, it's still got to be better than sending it to landfill or blocking my loo I guess. Still undecided on this one however.
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So, if I understand correctly, the liquid at the bottom is not clever. I would pour it back into the top for more worm activity. worm castings are what I want. Where are they and how do I access them?
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Worm castings are compost.
The wormery in the original link is made up from 4 boxes stacked on top of each other. First you fill the bottom box then move onto the next one up. The worms will make their own way up to the second box when they have finished dealing with the contents of the lower box. By the time you have filled the top box the 2 lowest boxes should be finished & you can just tip the contents out onto a bed to use as mulch. There will probably still be some worms in the finished castings but there is no need to collect them & put them back in the wormery if you don't want to, they will dig in the compost for you then wander off in search of a compost heap to live in.
You may need to empty the contents of the top 2 boxes of partially processed waste into the larger bottom box to restart the process (it is difficult to be sure without seeing exactly how it is constructed) then you continue filling as before.
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Thank you Baccy Man. I'm seriously tempted!
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I've sent a couple of questions to the seller, re smell etc .will keep you posted ;D
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Thanks Manics! I've got to do all my exam board paperwork by Friday + design ML department for our new school. I'm ducking and diving to avoid irate plotholders and we've got the social to set up on Saturday (+ skip filling beforehand). Stressssss... man... (ics) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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thought I had lots to do but you win, hands down..deep breath, anne.. ;D
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Baccy Man, I wondered if you knew what I have in an old bath at my allotment which fills up with rain and a great deal of foliage and hedge clippings, and therefore is "steeping", I suppose. I have recently taken to throwing weed roots into it to kill them (convulvulous, couch grass etc).
Sometimes it goes pink and smells, but is not bad at the moment. Is it beneficial for veg, or harmful? Or neither?
My intentions, as always, are to clean it out and start again with rainwater and no vegetation (I'll cover it).
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HI there, many thanks for your enquiry. Once the worms are actively eating the waste the smell is minimal hardly any at all. Harvesting your compost does take a while the first time around as you have to fill all 3 boxes before you can get your compost from the first box. Each box can take 2-3 months to fill, as the worms are eating away and reducing the waste by up to 80%. After the first year it will be able to cope with daily waste, you do have to start slowly in the first few months.
Hope this helps and is not too confusing.
Best regards, Graham
answer from web site seller :)
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Baccy Man, I wondered if you knew what I have in an old bath at my allotment which fills up with rain and a great deal of foliage and hedge clippings, and therefore is "steeping", I suppose. I have recently taken to throwing weed roots into it to kill them (convulvulous, couch grass etc).
Sometimes it goes pink and smells, but is not bad at the moment. Is it beneficial for veg, or harmful? Or neither?
My intentions, as always, are to clean it out and start again with rainwater and no vegetation (I'll cover it).
The pink stuff is likely to be a kind of methylobacterium sometimes referred to as pink algae or pink slime which likes to feed on decomposing plant material it is harmless & has a fairly high nitrogen content so the water would make a good plant feed.
The unpleasant smell is because the plant material is decomposing in anaerobic conditions (without oxygen) unfortunately there is nothing you can do to prevent that if you wish to kill your perennial weeds in this way. If you want another method to kill off perrennial weeds then you could place them in a plastic bag to break down or leave them out in the sun to dry out completely before adding them to your compost heap.
If you really want to get rid of the methylobacterium you will have to disinfect the bath when you empty it but I would be inclined to leave things as they are.
There is a little more info about methylobacterium & the benefits to plant growth here:
http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Methylobacterium#Description_and_Significance
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18256706
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Sounds to me like you shouldn't be putting stuff in daily from that then manics ??? Which ideally I'd like to do having two mutts that seem to just spend their life doing the doo! Are you going to get one?
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think so, posie, after all, ultimately, none will go in the bin, just a bit for a while :)
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Hmmm, think I will too. It's got to be better in the long run than landfill.